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FedEx, Walmart Ink Deals for GM BrightDrop Electric Delivery Vans (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/fedex-walmart-deals-electric-delivery-vans-gm-brightdrop/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2s_ZiZKbDg2otoQdXN4mXZtf7Mkm1V9pNWZmJCyMZdylnJWDkrElXnB84)
(https://i.imgur.com/RjIOFUI.png)
I think this, with trucks and SUVs, is where the money will be for automakers, more than sedans etc.
I also am coming to realize it's coming faster than I figured. We may hit 50% new sales by 2030.
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if GM can make then fast enough
saw a truckload of new Vettes in Chamberlain, SD yesterday morning. All wrapped in while plastic. It was 12 below zero.
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Imagine.......if all the cars stranded on I-95 had been electric…🤔
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what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?
perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
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I'm guessing there weren't many EVs in this group...................
ISLAMABAD (AP) — At least 22 people, including 10 children, died in a popular mountain resort town in Pakistan after being stuck in their vehicles overnight during a heavy snowstorm as temperatures plummeted, officials said Saturday.
Most of the victims died of hypothermia, officials said. Among them was an Islamabad police officer and seven other members of his family, fellow police officer Atiq Ahmed said.
More than 4 feet (1 meter) of snow fell in the area of the Murree Hills resort overnight Friday and early Saturday, trapping thousands of cars on roadways, said Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed. The snow was so severe that heavy equipment brought in to clear it initially got stuck during the night, said Umar Maqbool, assistant commissioner for the town of Murree. Temperatures fell to minus 8 degrees Celsius (17.6 degrees Fahrenheit).
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what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?
perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
You can heat your car by running your engine periodically with an ICE, but with a battery, when it runs out, which would be fairly soon, you are toast. Or an icicle.
I am guessing the battery would run down much faster than a gasoline tank if both are half full.
And if a slew of cars were out of battery power, you'd need a "wrecker" with a generator to service them all.
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I'm guessing that the battery doesn't run down quickly if the vehicle isn't moving, but I'm just guessing
you also don't need to clear the tail pipe for fear of carbon monoxide poisoning
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They use a heat pump for heat (and AC). It will drain the battery, I'm not sure how fast.
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what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?
perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
pretty easy to get gas to a car how many charging vehicles are availible - not a normal jump start
https://youtu.be/0OB-1qv0bKc?t=186
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/tech/alice-eviation-test-flight/index.html
Alice, the first all-electric passenger airplane, prepares to fly
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/tech/alice-eviation-test-flight/index.html
Pretty damn cool but according to the article it can only fly for about 1 hr and hit top speeds of 287mph.
Need more of both.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Aqbqs9O.png)
Thor Industries, an RV manufacturing company that owns several brands including Airstream, is showing a concept electric camper van with range of 300 miles:
https://www.motortrend.com/news/thor-vision-vehicle-concept-electric-rv-van/
(https://i.imgur.com/NlAFhWK.jpg)
And an Electrified Airstream Concept:
(https://i.imgur.com/nUcV6N9.png)
https://www.airstream.com/estream/
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Delivery vans make sense to me as EVs perhaps over anything else. RVs being an EV is a kind of cool concept, campgrounds could be equipped with FCs. But delivery vans are where it's at, along with work pickups. Where will we get the additional electricity on the grid?
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Delivery vans make sense to me as EVs perhaps over anything else. RVs being an EV is a kind of cool concept, campgrounds could be equipped with FCs. But delivery vans are where it's at, along with work pickups. Where will we get the additional electricity on the grid?
It's already quite common for campgrounds to have 30A and 50A hookups. State parks, national parks, municipal campgrounds, and private RV lots all over the country are already equipped to handle delivering power at those currents.
300 miles is less range than I'd want in an RV, it's not uncommon for me to travel 400-450 miles in a day for camping. But there's a decent sized market segment that this would probably work for.
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if all cars, trucks, semi-trucks, and RV's go electric, we're going to all be consuming more electricity. Like....A LOT more. And unless all this new surge of electricity comes from solar & wind - we're just going to be swapping out gasoline and diesel for coal and natural gas. These figures are from an article in the NYT from 2018 - so it's few years back, but - 34% of all electricity produced in US are from power plants run on Natural Gas, and 30% from coal. Nuclear plants are 20%. Hydroelectric is 7%. Wind is 6%. Solar is just 1% and oil is 1%.
Unless they ramp up solar and nuclear power production drastically - does not make a whole lot sense to me to switch to tens of millions and eventually hundreds of millions of EV's on the road. These cars are all going to need juice every few days- and that juice has to come from somewhere.
And have you guys ever seen the kind of devastation and pollution that mining for the natural resources that go into the batteries for EV's causes? There are entire toxic black lakes in China as a result of mining for the raw materials that make up EV batteries - and there are essentially child slaves in Africa in the Congo forced to mine for rare earth minerals that also go into EV batteries. Some children as young as 6 years old have been documented to be working the mines in the Congo. 70% of all the cobalt produced in the entire world comes from the Congo.
Yet no one really talks about any of this. It's as if people think just switching to battery powered vehicles will simply solve everything - and never think about the unintended problems or consequences of doing so might bring about.
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Coal and nuclear are around 20% each, solar/wind/hydro is close to 20. The rest is NG. There is very little planned nuclear expansion in the US, two new power reactors coming on line fairly soon in GA and that's it. Small modular reactors COULD come into play, in time. The calculated increased in additional power needed if everything was an EV ranges from 20-30% MORE, and a lot of that at night. And no, we don't have a plan.
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My understanding is that power coming from centralized plants is cleaner than millions of combustion engines no matter if it’s coal or gas. I know when I was around fired equipment we had very strict limits on the CO and NOx we could emit, along with expensive analyzers.
Even though we will be needed if electric capacity on the grid much of it can come during off peak times. I’m sure most power cos will be more than happy to pump more juice into the grid at night when they have the excess capacity.
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I've seen the math on EVs and CO2 production, and they are better even if they use coal fired electricity, but not by a whole lot. A coal fired steam turbine is very efficient obviously and transmissions losses are remarkably small.
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I've seen the math on EVs and CO2 production, and they are better even if they use coal fired electricity, but not by a whole lot. A coal fired steam turbine is very efficient obviously and transmissions losses are remarkably small.
if it's not better by a whole lot - then what is even the point?
And the emissions are separate fact - we aren't even taking into account the human rights crisis of child slaves mining for cobalt (a mineral that goes in the EV batteries) in the Congo or the environmental crisis of toxic black sludge lakes in Inner Mongolia and China as a result of the mining there for minerals that also go in the EV batteries.
Not sure how you solve these two issues - but as far as production of electricity - I think the solution should be nuclear power plants. I know the public are hesitant to this because of horrific and tragic accidents like Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima - but these were all nuclear reactors that were built in the 60s and 70s. Technology has come a looooong way since then. A plant built in the 2020s is going to be a heckuva lot better than one built in the 60s and 70s. The new nuclear reactors & plants have way more safe guards, are way more efficient, and designed much better.
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if it's not better by a whole lot - then what is even the point?
The point was that our worst case power generation is coal, and that an BEV powered by coal-produced electricity is still better than an ICEV. A BEV powered by natural gas or nuclear (or solar/renewable) is thus better by a whole lot.
It's like a lottery ticket where worst case is a little better than break-even, but there's a big upside above that. You make that bet every damn time.
Granted, you bring up legit points about the cobalt mining. I know if you look at Tesla they're trying to eliminate cobalt from batteries for that reason...
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The transition to EVs will be sporadic until the economic equation makes more sense for the buyer. The pickup trucks are at that point now, I think. EVs do have some other advantages in terms of immediate torque and cost per mile, and disadvantages in terms of fill up time.
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Comparing the Chevrolet Silverado EV with Its Gas-Powered Sibling (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38659110/chevrolet-silverado-ev-vs-gas-silverado/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR24oxAIn2V2WcQw_cEawu99YmZy_tSDfOIxMQsgyaM7UhDivgTgvEoRPKM)
The WT will start at around $40,000—$10,000 more than the equivalent gas Silverado—while the top-end RST will be around $100,000, a nearly 50 grand premium over the gas Silverado RSTs. And unlike the gas truck, you'll have to wait till fall 2023 to buy one.
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General Motors: Key takeaways from GM's Q4 results and 2022 guidance (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/general-motors-key-takeaways-from-gms-q4-results-and-2022-guidance.html)
GM expects to produce over 1 million EVs globally by 2025.
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The point was that our worst case power generation is coal, and that an BEV powered by coal-produced electricity is still better than an ICEV. A BEV powered by natural gas or nuclear (or solar/renewable) is thus better by a whole lot.
It's like a lottery ticket where worst case is a little better than break-even, but there's a big upside above that. You make that bet every damn time.
Granted, you bring up legit points about the cobalt mining. I know if you look at Tesla they're trying to eliminate cobalt from batteries for that reason...
And what about the black toxic lakes in China and inner mongolia?
I'm with you....I'm for EV's but only if they solve the human rights and environmental issues around mining for the materials to make the batteries. And also if we ramp up solar, wind, and nuclear power by a lot.
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Human activities in general despoil the planet, it's a matter of trade offs, I'm not sure there is much that isn't that way. If we replace coal with nuclear, we would get some advantages, but we'd also replace one large lot of problems with some smaller ones. Trade offs.
In some theoretical future, perhaps recharging is effected using wind and solar, but those have environmental downsides as well, and perhaps batteries are made without previous metals like cobalt, but whatever replaces them would have some issues. The entire petrochemical chain has issues beyond just CO2 generation.
Fusion perhaps COULD be the most benign source of energy we could have any time "soon", but ...
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Let's do a plan.
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I'd rather do lunch
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How did electric car owners stranded in snow on I-95 in VA fair recently?
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How did electric car owners stranded in snow on I-95 in VA fair recently?
I did some reading on this and apparently they do about as well as an ICE vehicle in terms of maintaining heat with energy remaining. It varies depending.
Now of course if either runs out of fuel, they are stuck and need either gasoline, a tow, or an electricity source. But EVs can keep you reasonably warm for a reasonable period if stuck.
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I did some reading on this and apparently they do about as well as an ICE vehicle in terms of maintaining heat with energy remaining. It varies depending.
Now of course if either runs out of fuel, they are stuck and need either gasoline, a tow, or an electricity source. But EVs can keep you reasonably warm for a reasonable period if stuck.
problem with EVs right now is that there aren't charging stations around every single corner across the country like there are gas stations.
don't think the issue of being stranded without power will be as big of a deal in the future as EV stations take over gas stations. probably going to have to make the EV stations 24/7 however.
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I just read there are now more charging stations in the US than gasoline stations, but a gas station has multiple pumps and they are counting single charging stations.
I agree this will be less of an issue in the fairly near term.
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I just read there are now more charging stations in the US than gasoline stations, but a gas station has multiple pumps and they are counting single charging stations.
I agree this will be less of an issue in the fairly near term.
they are probably counting charging stations as places in parking garages, offices, hotels, etc. that have one or two charging stations in them.
in terms of actual charging stations like gas stations - that's not even close.
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The counted each charger as one entity versus each gas station. A charging station with 6 chargers counts as 6.
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The counted each charger as one entity versus each gas station. A charging station with 6 chargers counts as 6.
yeah, which is beyond stupid.
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Stat of the Week: Comparing the Ratio of EV Charging Stations Versus Gas Stations – EVs Win – EVAdoption (https://evadoption.com/stat-of-the-week-comparing-the-ratio-of-ev-charging-stations-versus-gas-stations-evs-win/)
That's another way of massaging the figures, comparing ratios. Of course, it doesn't help if the charging stations are too far apart.
More EV Charging Stations Than Gas Stations, Now What? (cleantechnica.com) (https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/15/more-ev-charging-stations-than-gas-stations-then-what/)
More spin.
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Norway Could Phase Out Gas-Burning Cars For EVs Before 2025 (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/norway-underestimated-how-fast-it-could-phase-out-gas-b-1848471246?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1643918416&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR07MPD33FROi4D49ydkZFk11OoAI9INKR5y2F3ORxyKB8lYz6Pw-rISY44)
In January of 2022, nearly 84 percent of new cars sold in Norway were EVs, as Bloomberg reports (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-01/ev-sales-hit-record-in-norway-with-fossil-engines-soon-gone?sref=P6Q0mxvj). The report goes on to say that Norway could be three years ahead of schedule for phasing out ICE cars altogether.
I’ll try to be measured about the stat. I wouldn’t want to sensationalize it, but holy shit, the remaining 16(ish) percent means that out of 8,000 new cars sold in January, gas-burning cars numbered a paltry 387 units. In light of these latest stats, Bloomberg reports (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-01/ev-sales-hit-record-in-norway-with-fossil-engines-soon-gone?sref=P6Q0mxvj) Norway may reach it’s ambitious goal of all new cars sold being fully-electric two months from now. From Bloomberg:
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First All-Electric Commuter Aircraft Will Soon Take Flight (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/first-all-electric-commuter-aircraft-is-weeks-away-from-1848461043?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1643821223&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0gYFuzXxcsbvIOVG_Ohu7xTeotwcJN7AnaRtULXTbHgeqW_799YhrKm9M)
(https://i.imgur.com/IPmuj0I.png)
With battery technology similar to that of an electric car or a cell phone and 30 minutes of charging, the nine-passenger Alice will be able to fly for one hour, and about 440 nautical miles. The plane has a max cruise speed of 250 kts, or 287 miles per hour. For reference, a Boeing 737 has a max cruise speed of 588 miles per hour. The company, focused exclusively on electric air travel, hopes that electric planes that can fit 20 to 40 passengers will be a reality in seven to 10 years.
If range is one hour at 250 knots, that would mean 250 nm, not 440.
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Global market share of electric cars more than doubled in 2021 as the EV revolution gains steam - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/?fbclid=IwAR37zbvgOJ0RB0svmF1J4_pYmYJ7TwiCRIq_Q3ANgMSs_AbyIcidwsNMUuc)
(https://i.imgur.com/yfcRuHg.png)
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Yup, pretty sure my 2018 was the last combustion engine car I'll ever buy. It was a 'maybe' at the time, but it's more and more certain with every passing year.
Also, I miss my Jeep.
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Our car is a 2018 with not many miles, I hope to keep it 10+ years, it works for us. If I buy something in 2030, it likely would be electric, though I could go for something used with an ICE, I do enjoy the manual transmission, but by then maybe not so much.
We'd like a convertible, in theory, at some point, as a kind of toy. I don't fit into a Miata.
I think the money to be made in EVs is trucks/vans/SUVs, in the US. Ford and GM are focused there now.
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Yup, pretty sure my 2018 was the last combustion engine car I'll ever buy. It was a 'maybe' at the time, but it's more and more certain with every passing year.
Also, I miss my Jeep.
You're in luck, they currently make a plug-in hybrid Wrangler, with an all-electric version coming in 2023. You can have the best of all worlds!
(https://i.imgur.com/gnc03X7.jpg)
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EV Company Builds Road That'll Charge Cars As They Drive (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/public-road-detroit-to-charge-electric-cars-as-they-drive-2022-2?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR0RbWdTQiG2h1pvzH-na40Lot5YUex5hT1Asdk42_IvCvsum99vTpx16kE)
- Electreon Wireless is building a mile-long stretch in Detroit that will charge electric cars as the drive on it.
- The company said the roadway will be fully functional by 2023 for EVs that install a special receiver.
- Charging infrastructure poses a major hurdle for electric-vehicle adoption.
- Axios estimates (https://www.axios.com/a-roadway-will-charge-your-ev-while-youre-driving-f2f2ad5b-3735-4948-bc50-b486f076a255.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioswhatsnext&stream=science) installing the special receiver will cost about $3,000 to $4,000 per car. Though, Electreon told the publication they hope to get the price closer to $1,000 to $1,500.
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travelling rural South Dakota, Nebraska, and Iowa for the past 4 weeks
haven't noticed an electric vehicle or a charging station
last Friday I woke up in Pierre, SD, route was to Eagle Butte, Bison, Wall, then home to Sewer City, IA
750 mile day
gas in Faith, SD was $3.60 at the pump
doubt there's a charging station within 100 miles of Faith or Bison
Pierre probably has a few, but I don't know
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Charging Stations Near Bison, SD | Free EV Electric Charging Stations (bestlocalcardeals.com) (https://bestlocalcardeals.com/bison-sd/electric-charging-stations/)
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Bison to Dickinson 116 miles
Bison to Cannon Ball 159
Bison to Spearfish 129
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EV Company Builds Road That'll Charge Cars As They Drive (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/public-road-detroit-to-charge-electric-cars-as-they-drive-2022-2?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR0RbWdTQiG2h1pvzH-na40Lot5YUex5hT1Asdk42_IvCvsum99vTpx16kE)
- Electreon Wireless is building a mile-long stretch in Detroit that will charge electric cars as the drive on it.
- The company said the roadway will be fully functional by 2023 for EVs that install a special receiver.
- Charging infrastructure poses a major hurdle for electric-vehicle adoption.
- Axios estimates (https://www.axios.com/a-roadway-will-charge-your-ev-while-youre-driving-f2f2ad5b-3735-4948-bc50-b486f076a255.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioswhatsnext&stream=science) installing the special receiver will cost about $3,000 to $4,000 per car. Though, Electreon told the publication they hope to get the price closer to $1,000 to $1,500.
that's pretty damn cool and that could be a game changer for EVs.
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Op-Ed Says EVs Can't Handle Winter Stranding. We Check the Facts (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38883045/electric-cars-snow-cold-fact-check/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR16cgJl3jSosP-sGhzGLZAG-E9kcL1ugivy0WAd8Ny87UP5ifGP8DUSO8M)
One interesting note is how EVs are being equipped now to charge other EVs in emergencies, in some cases, which is interesting.
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mobile charging stations
what a concept
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Supposedly the Tesla Cybertruck is now delayed until 2023... Putting them at least half a year behind the Ford Lightning release and probably best case on par with the Chevy Silverado EV release.
All that for a hideously ugly thing out of Blade Runner when most of the people wanting an electric truck (people actually using it for work) probably want something that looks like, well, a truck.
I don't understand, if there are other trucks available, who will actually want that thing?
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Supposedly the Tesla Cybertruck is now delayed until 2023... Putting them at least half a year behind the Ford Lightning release and probably best case on par with the Chevy Silverado EV release.
All that for a hideously ugly thing out of Blade Runner when most of the people wanting an electric truck (people actually using it for work) probably want something that looks like, well, a truck.
I don't understand, if there are other trucks available, who will actually want that thing?
Virtue signalers.
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Yeah, I think that Tesla "truck" won't do well at all unless somehow the metrics are astonishing.
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Virtue signalers.
Maybe, but how does the Tesla really signal virtue any more than any other BEV truck?
Yeah, I think that Tesla "truck" won't do well at all unless somehow the metrics are astonishing.
Possibly true, but knowing Tesla, the metric they think everyone cares about is 0-60 time... For what is basically a work vehicle.
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Things that matter for folks buying a truck to be used as a truck are pretty clear, and I think Ford and Chevy both hit the mark on that pretty well.
I think maybe a truck with less range, cost, and weight, would also be appealing in a work truck.
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Maybe, but how does the Tesla really signal virtue any more than any other BEV truck?
You said it yourself, those other trucks look like trucks, and therefore are not very good virtue-signaling devices. If my goal is to signal my virtue, then buying an electric truck that looks almost identical to a regular truck, isn't going to be very effective.
You asked a question-- who will want it? I'm just answering that question. I don't think it's a particularly large market segment, but it's about the only group of people I can imagine having any real desire to buy one.
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Why Nissan is moving from the internal combustion engine in Europe (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/09/why-nissan-is-moving-from-the-internal-combustion-engine-in-europe-.html)
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Roads That Charge Electric Cars Wirelessly Are Springing Up Everywhere! (intelligentliving.co) (https://www.intelligentliving.co/roads-that-charge-electric-cars-wirelessly-springing-up-everywhere/)
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Everywhere.
Sure, Jan.
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Everywhere is obviously the usual journalistic excess.
Here and there would be a far better description, in terms of accuracy. But for clicks?
I read elsewhere that induction losses are single digit, like 6%, which is fascinating to me.
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Our range is induction and it's a marvel, I MUCH prefer it to gas. We swapped out a perfectly good stove because the wife wanted induction, and I'm glad we did.
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I think it's a cool concept. The real questions will be cost, efficiency, durability, etc.
Also, time to market/installation. The BEV market will drive massive installations of DC electric fast charging stations over the next 10 years, and I'd be amazed if we have more than 1,000 miles of inductive charging road installed in the entire nation by that time. Once that happens, nobody will want to bankroll inductive charging roads.
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In ten years, inductive charging might well still be in the test phase. But it might still be nice to have even with superchargers all around us.
Maybe somewhere a real highway is built with this and some cars are fitted for it and folks love it, I dunno.
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I think it's a cool concept. The real questions will be cost, efficiency, durability, etc.
Also, time to market/installation. The BEV market will drive massive installations of DC electric fast charging stations over the next 10 years, and I'd be amazed if we have more than 1,000 miles of inductive charging road installed in the entire nation by that time. Once that happens, nobody will want to bankroll inductive charging roads.
Yes I suspect this is how it will go. Without any real market drivers, there's not ever going to be widespread need or use for inductive charging road surfaces.
I could see it in very limited and specific applications though, maybe.
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Exactly... And the key is simple...
Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers?
The government.
They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this?
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I think each car would pay a toll for however many miles are driven on the roads, sensors would tell which car was on them.
The GDOT is building a lot of express lanes here separate from the interstate, they are amazingly expensive to build, with gas tax monies. Maybe they build separate freeways for this concept. But I agree until it gets going in some real form, not just a mile of test road, its appeal would be very limited.
PROJECT-NorthwestCorridorExpressLanes.pdf (aspirebridge.com) (http://www.aspirebridge.com/magazine/2019Spring/PROJECT-NorthwestCorridorExpressLanes.pdf)
This is the longest bridge in the state now. The cost is incredible, to me.
The project included three intersecting interstate highways — Interstates 75, 575 and 285 — and 39 bridges. With a cost of $834 million, it is the largest transportation project in Georgia history.
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Exactly... And the key is simple...
Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers?
The government.
They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this?
Cali will simply raise taxes, again
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The model is akin to that express lane project in GA, nearly a billion dollars paid for by ... users, with tolls. And supposedly usage is higher than expected, I'm told. And this is just two lanes separated from the freeway that reverse depending on time of day. You have to have a "Peach Pass" to use them, it costs $20 I think to install, I don't have one.
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Exactly... And the key is simple...
Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers?
The government.
They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this?
Us?
I've been out of the road business for quite some time, but when I was in it, road construction was funded by motor fuel taxes.
Welp...
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The model is akin to that express lane project in GA, nearly a billion dollars paid for by ... users, with tolls. And supposedly usage is higher than expected, I'm told. And this is just two lanes separated from the freeway that reverse depending on time of day. You have to have a "Peach Pass" to use them, it costs $20 I think to install, I don't have one.
Tolls pay various entities after the road is built.
Who would pay for these roads to BE built?
Keeping in mind that an inductive charging road surface would be substantially more expensive than a standard road surface.
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the bank extends a loan, then it's paid after the road is built
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the bank extends a loan, then it's paid after the road is built
Maybe. Sometimes.
Who guarantees the loan?
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The state guarantees the loans in the form of municipal bonds. This has been so successful here they propose a massive plan to extend these express lanes across the top of the Perimeter. I find it appalling and fascinating at the same time. It's projected to cost around $11 billion, if built.
New GDOT video shows a Perimeter flush with express lanes, less traffic - Curbed Atlanta (https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/1/22/21076743/gdot-atlanta-285-perimeter-express-lanes-video)
Along Atlanta’s Perimeter, city officials are lobbying against pricey I-285 toll lanes project - Curbed Atlanta (https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/6/10/18659700/perimeter-dunwoody-toll-lanes-petition-billion-dollar-285)
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Maybe. Sometimes.
Who guarantees the loan?
You.
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(https://i.imgur.com/EcclNI4.png)
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States can use municipal bonds which enjoy lower interest rates than corporate bonds and lower than some bank loan. It's a nice "dodge" if you will, for states and localities to build stuff now and pay later.
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Us?
I've been out of the road business for quite some time, but when I was in it, road construction was funded by motor fuel taxes.
Welp...
Well obviously everything "the government" pays for is from our taxes... Or borrowing and indebting our descendents.
And yes, fuel taxes will fall. But money is fungible. The leeches in DC will find another way to soak us.
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There is a highway trust fund paid into with fuel taxes, state taxes are the highest, around 55 cents per gallon, Federal is 18.5 cents I think.
Congress adds to spending with direct spending bills like the recent "infrastructure bill" they passed. And Congressmen can get special funding for projects in their districts.
The toll road idea is another approach, many early freeways in the north were (and remain) toll roads.
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To Take Over the World, Dr. EV-il Is Going to Save It—With GM’s EVs (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ultium-ev-super-bowl-commericial-dr-evil-austin-powers/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2SQXOIzFckRz9Ksm5l9i0AQBPnAzxcj4R8k0QscnRt3JJv7_dbn_3_t8E)
That is worth watching I think....
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(https://consent.yahoo.com/v2/collectConsent?sessionId=1_cc-session_0a0a0e03-2255-4efe-a538-742dafd44b86)National Grid to drain electric car batteries at times of peak demand (yahoo.com) (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/national-grid-drain-electric-car-183023418.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9sLmZhY2Vib29rLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIc6j333tbsEPBzP_mWms1SbtGrJYaOy8pKqPpg1eCLH1W8sPtDzzrfgzy_URp5ai-K_HQgttPk7-TBhsEQXvbl3jCqJw7_MlWX6Jb_lQxpOwI-j7lA4GuYtGFzkgY0EWW8SPGU-Qdvq5ZGrPNPQ0a0QQAo8I83wFSkisKir0Wko)
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2024 Chevrolet Silverado EV: What We Know So Far (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/silverado-ev?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR0NIYqLn0hqKhHoQ-BEImpgeA7BFpYPihuZrNFbanbMC6Al1q7mDN3zTMI)
I could be wrong, but I'd think the WT with less power and range and cost would be more attractive.
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Under the skin: How roads could charge your electric car as you drive | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-how-roads-could-charge-your-electric-car-you-drive?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=News&fbclid=IwAR0CL0gju3WGiukWAM-pQgUKz0ov9YeISdOL7JYISZ7umIV9PTeuD66m32M)
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I was at the VW dealer for an oil change today. They had posters out for their new EV and had taken a lot of orders for it, but no model on hand.
The oil change was $91, but it's once a year, so not too bad.
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I pay the Chevy dealer $65
8 quarts of 0W-20 full synthetic oil
but, I know a guy
I've been changing it myself when the weather is warm
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https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35368171/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-lightning-lap/
More my speed.
Only this years version.
https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500
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Neat car, the performance cars are all neat cars, I just don't feel a desire to own one now.
I like "sporty" a lot.
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How Far Can You Tow With an Electric Truck? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-far-can-you-tow-with-electric-truck-range/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR3kXr-9R_KHsZtt7WXbRkw5UMM6vN9auFZq6CXvsiXQIckvee9k59Xsae4)
Towing roughly 9,000 pounds with a Rivian R1T reduced our driving range by 45 percent on average, slightly better than Rivian's estimate of a 50 percent reduction when towing the maximum 11,000 pounds the truck is capable of. Our range dropped from an EPA-estimated 314 miles to as low as 170 miles. For context, that's 30 miles farther than a standard Nissan Leaf can cover on a single charge but less than most other EVs.
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https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35368171/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-lightning-lap/
More my speed.
Only this years version.
https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500
Doesn't even offer a manual.
I'm out.
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170 miles towing doesn't even get me to Dallas or Houston.
ICE will be around for a long while because without some new technology in batteries that we haven't even discovered yet, it's not ever going to be capable of doing the things that a lot of users require.
I keep on wondering why hybrids aren't more prevalent in the truck/full-sized SUV market segment.
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Doesn't even offer a manual.
I'm out.
Yes-I guess FORD wanted this car to win in competition, on road courses. Even a professional driver using a manual could never compete with the dual clutch seven speed automatic that shifts instantly on its own or when using the paddle shifters.
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Yes-I guess FORD wanted this car to win in competition, on road courses. Even a professional driver using a manual could never compete with the dual clutch seven speed automatic that shifts instantly on its own or when using the paddle shifters.
Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did.
IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not.
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I keep on wondering why hybrids aren't more prevalent in the truck/full-sized SUV market segment.
We've discussed this of course, I think at some point someone will provide that Diesel-electric hybrid that runs like a locomotive. Maybe it would have say 40 miles of range on batteries.
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40 miles?
Might as well just have a diesel
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Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did.
IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not.
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/273698382_3086477548260453_476010823236561949_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=5IUntc5oviQAX-ybO01&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_lupaArdXuOZpcrsnHatVbArWcEVN7eqi0lhBVz6tVGQ&oe=621DE4F4)
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Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did.
IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not.
Agreed. Not disputable.
most people that buy true performance cars will never track them.
But- many will. And if they track this car, and MANY do- they will have substantially better lap times than they could ever accomplish with a manual. And Ford came right out and said that’s why they don’t offer a manual. Well- that and it is way too much power for that kind of gear box.
Those that are serious about taking this particular vehicle on a road course are opting the $18000 carbon performance package, which includes rear seat delete, carbon ceramic brakes, carbon wheels and a much bigger ( uglier) rear wing.
but-let’s be honest. Cars like this are not for most people. Not their cup of tea.
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40 miles?
Might as well just have a diesel
The idea is to cover a lot of running about town with electric only. Maybe it's 60 miles, I dunno.
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How GM Is Aiming to Master the EV Universe—and Topple Tesla—by 2025 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-dominate-electric-vehicle-market-topple-tesla/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1_39ch5fpoXFnFV3KuKeO59Bv0M4PiJtvzg9zo3VnfYbYFeDtE_z1oFzY)
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Found this funny:
https://www.torquenews.com/14335/will-tesla-cybertruck-ever-be-released
Basically it's a journalist offering every Tesla excuse in the book for why the Cybertruck hasn't yet seen the light of day. As if Tesla is making a "choice" not to release it.
The Cybertruck hasn't released because Tesla can't build it. Maybe that's due to technology (i.e. 4680 batteries not yet fully there), or maybe it's supply chain, or maybe they can build it but it won't yet hit reliability metrics, or maybe it's lack of production capacity, or maybe it's simple economics--they can't build enough of them and sell them for a price that will make a profit to devote a production line to them.
But with 1M pre-orders, and with the likely modeled profit for a Cybertruck--particularly if they start with the highest-priced trim levels as they've done with other models--being higher than that for a Model 3 or Y, the only reason it's not in production is because they either can't build it or can't do so profitably.
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How GM Is Aiming to Master the EV Universe—and Topple Tesla—by 2025 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-dominate-electric-vehicle-market-topple-tesla/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1_39ch5fpoXFnFV3KuKeO59Bv0M4PiJtvzg9zo3VnfYbYFeDtE_z1oFzY)
I'll believe it when I see it. Tesla is run by a legitimate genius and visionary, and GM is run by.....some woman from Michigan that is just your run of the mill CEO who rose up the ranks at a boring auto company she's worked at forever. There is nothing exceptional about her.
Tesla still owns roughly 80% of the EV market as of 2021. That is bound to change with all cars going electric and every manufacturer entering the fray, they won't own 80% - there's no way- that will go way down - but they will still without a doubt be the major player in EVs. Their product, tech, and innovation is still years ahead and just better than everyone else's. And it will remain better for the foreseeable future. They also have one thing that is literally invaluable that none of the others have - BRAND. Tesla = EV's the way Apple = Smartphone. And Tesla is a luxury brand. GM isn't.
GM has a brand/image problem. They spend $2.7 to $4.5 billion a year advertising over the last 6 years, changes every year- but that's the min and max ad spend. Tesla spends exactly....zero dollars advertising. Tesla has the cult-like brand following, and they blow up on media and social media whenever they announce anything- and they do that all while spend exactly ZERO dollars doing so. GM can't do this- nor will they ever will have this ability or a cult like following. It's organic to Tesla/Musk - and it's worth more than any amount of money can buy.
GM is going to production with a $200,000+ electric Cadillac sedan. Literally no one is going to buy this. The only vehicle they make and actually sell high quantities of that is north of $100,000 is the Escalade.
I don't want to hear the prognostications from all the Tesla haters - they've been bashing Tesla and predicting it's doom from the start- and every time Tesla is on the brink - Musk just puts his nose to the grindstone throws all the chips to the center and comes out on top. Won't be any different here. Some people are just born different and better than everyone else. There are very few of these people on earth and in life. Musk is one of these people.
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Found this funny:
https://www.torquenews.com/14335/will-tesla-cybertruck-ever-be-released
Basically it's a journalist offering every Tesla excuse in the book for why the Cybertruck hasn't yet seen the light of day. As if Tesla is making a "choice" not to release it.
The Cybertruck hasn't released because Tesla can't build it. Maybe that's due to technology (i.e. 4680 batteries not yet fully there), or maybe it's supply chain, or maybe they can build it but it won't yet hit reliability metrics, or maybe it's lack of production capacity, or maybe it's simple economics--they can't build enough of them and sell them for a price that will make a profit to devote a production line to them.
But with 1M pre-orders, and with the likely modeled profit for a Cybertruck--particularly if they start with the highest-priced trim levels as they've done with other models--being higher than that for a Model 3 or Y, the only reason it's not in production is because they either can't build it or can't do so profitably.
probably lot of factors - but Tesla will eventually go to production and sell it. They have never delivered any new product on time- even when the world wasn't upside down...supply chain and chip shortage probably isn't helping.
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I'll believe it when I see it. Tesla is run by a legitimate genius and visionary,.
Not according to veteran mechanics they are not enamored with tesla though Elan may be playing shell games with the stock and pocketing the difference.He's done well for himself,hardly cutting edge and reliable/reasonable right now.Visionary,no Ford,Wright Brothers,Salk,Tesla himself.Ring me up when it really benefits mankind
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probably lot of factors - but Tesla will eventually go to production and sell it. They have never delivered any new product on time- even when the world wasn't upside down...supply chain and chip shortage probably isn't helping.
Yeah, I trust they'll get there. I just think that author sounded like a moron. If Musk could be shipping the Cybertruck right now, he would be.
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The idea is to cover a lot of running about town with electric only. Maybe it's 60 miles, I dunno.
I hope you visit Lincoln, NE for a game this fall.
You gotta get out of the city once in a while
not all folks walk everywhere
;)
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I hope you visit Lincoln, NE for a game this fall.
You gotta get out of the city once in a while
not all folks walk everywhere
;)
Half the reason I don't really care about an EV now is that I don't drive anywhere lol... Last 2 years working from home, the biggest driving I do is taking the kids to school and picking them up on the days I've got 'em. That's about 40-45 miles total.
Beyond that it's the occasional trip to Costco or the driving range. Even when I play my normal golf course, it's barely 2-3 mi each way.
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but, you're killin the planet!
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but, you're killin the planet!
Barely. I barely buy enough gas to kill anything.
My wife would be an EV candidate. More likely a PHEV like a Chevy Volt, as her daily commute is 14 mi each way. But she could go EV because we usually take the Flex when we go on a road trip.
I'm guessing in ~5-7 years when we retire her Lexus RX, if they have a BEV version we might go that route. But she's not exactly a Chevy kind of gal lol...
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It's amazing how much CO2 comes from a gallon of gasoline.
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or a gallon of corn squeezing's such as ethanol
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The Volt of course is no more. I like the idea of a plug in hybrid in general.
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The Volt of course is no more. I like the idea of a plug in hybrid in general.
You asked for it--
(https://i.imgur.com/UcsmAMH.jpg)
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SparkCharge "Electric Jerry Can" Makes DC Fast Charging Portable (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/sparkcharge-roadie-portable-ev-fast-charger/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0qr2Nnqm-ZZ6b1I5brDTg3mYjTFj6Yd4fhyiO9EkLaAOnx3w4OkFK1YEs)
At the heart of this mobile DC fast charger for EVs is the Roadie system, consisting of some number of 3.7-kWh batteries that connect together in a stack, topped by a Roadie charger unit (using the standard CCS plug) capable of DC fast charging at a rate of 20kW, operating at between 150 and 500 volts of DC power. The charger block weighs 51 pounds. Each battery box weighs 73 pounds and takes about 2 hours to recharge on 110-volt power. And because the whole stack is compact enough to fit on a wheeled cart, it can be maneuvered right up to the EV, wherever it's parked. These units are manufactured in Buffalo, NY.
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Ford will split its electric vehicle and internal combustion operations into two individual businesses to accelerate its adaptation of new technology and the Detroit automaker said Wednesday that its transformation into an EV company is accelerating.
Ford plans a major restructuring with two distinct but strategically interdependent auto businesses – Ford Blue focusing on traditional combustion engines and Ford Model e, which will develop electric vehicles.
Jim Farley, the chief executive officer of Ford Motor Co., will lead the electric division.
“We are going all in, creating separate but complementary businesses that give us start-up speed and unbridled innovation in Ford Model e together with Ford Blue’s industrial know-how, volume and iconic brands like Bronco, that start-ups can only dream about,” Farley said.
A pair of EV start-ups, Lucid Group and Lordstown Motors, released disappointing production projections this week, highlighting how difficult it is to secure materials and scale up in the auto industry.
Farley said that the company recognized the need to become more nimble on the technology side with so many competitors entering the market.
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but, you're killin the planet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko3w02ycBwI
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It's amazing how much CO2 comes from a gallon of gasoline.
Guess I'd better keep the lid on the Jim Beam
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko3w02ycBwI
Of course we're not going to destroy the planet...
...we just might make it unable to sustain the roughly 8B humans who live here.
Which is kinda, well, important. At least from the perspective of one of those 8B.
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Well George Carlin is dead so what does HE care?
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Well George Carlin is dead so what does HE care?
His daughter is still alive, and although he seemed like a callous asshole on stage, I'm guessing he probably wants the planet to be able to support her and not devolve into world wars over resource scarcity caused by climate change.
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His daughter is still alive, and although he seemed like a callous asshole on stage, I'm guessing he probably wants the planet to be able to support her and not devolve into world wars over resource scarcity caused by climate change.
Does he? Didn't sound like it from his comedy bit...
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Does he? Didn't sound like it from his comedy bit...
You're aware that stand up comedians refer to their set as an "act", right? And that they might not believe every thing they say on stage?
Although I'll agree... Now that he's dead, he doesn't care, because he no longer exists. But I'm sure that before his death, he wished, like most parents, that his child would live safely and happily all her years.
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the comedy thread is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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You're aware that stand up comedians refer to their set as an "act", right? And that they might not believe every thing they say on stage?
Although I'll agree... Now that he's dead, he doesn't care, because he no longer exists. But I'm sure that before his death, he wished, like most parents, that his child would live safely and happily all her years.
Well then it seems silly to use a comedy bit as a supporting argument for a political or ideological view, I'd say. :)
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car?
https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/)
Tesla Superchargers and other fast-charging networks like Electrify America and EVGo bill by kWh whenever possible, but you may also be billed by the minute depending on state regulations. According to Electrify America, “We believe pricing on a per-kWh basis offers a fair and consistent charging experience to EV drivers. We are working with regulators to follow the various processes that are required for us to provide EV charging on a per-kWh basis.”
Exclusively using DC fast chargers when it’s not complimentary — as with our Model Y — would shrink cost savings versus charging at home. Frequent DC fast charging is also not recommended as it can degrade battery health more quickly. Exclusively Supercharging would cost $84 to drive a Model Y 1,000 miles at $0.30 per kWh, versus $39.54 at home, using EPA combined efficiency figures.
Electricity Vs. Gasoline Costs
When charging at home, EVs are more affordable to refuel versus comparable gasoline cars, but don’t confuse that with electric cars being immediately cheaper to own because, at the moment, the extra expense related to buying an EV and installing home-charging equipment doesn’t make a quick payoff a sure bet. Relative to your existing electrical bill, charging an EV could mean a sharp increase, but in most cases, the cost is considerably lower than fueling a gasoline-powered car. The Department of Energy says on average, it costs about half as much to drive an EV versus a comparable gas car.
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The recycle thing is kind of a scam. The recyclers have some low paid workers standing by a conveyor mainly looking for aluminum cans. They might get some plastic, maybe, if it's large and doesn't have the cap on it and throw that in another bin. Cardboard has negative value unless it's adjacent to a cardboard recycling plant, which they aren't. Plastic bottles are usually PE and caps are PP and they don't recycle in the same stream. A bottle with a cap on it goes to landfill. Glass is dangerous so they ignore that, unless it's in a source separated glass stream.
Most goes to landfill, I suspect that 26% figure is only for some highly developed recycling ops.
You can calculate how much it costs to charge your car at home pretty easily. Here it would be pretty cheap, I'm paying about 6 cents per kWhr last I checked. An EV may need 60-100 to recharge. EVs rarely need new brakes and don't need oil changes.
I'd go plug in hybrid if I wanted to be economical right now.
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Thomas Edison poses with his first electric car, 1895.
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275122203_2075069222669744_5532428312915526123_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=hAc0uCmNtccAX_HlS3M&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8e9gmDHu8p3GSm_bZj-HYZw05ztkOpvRfbppb7km-jZg&oe=6231C811)
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Speaking of recycling, hopefully one of the up and coming battery recycling companies solves the problem of what to do with all the batteries from these EV cars when they die out. With the price of lithium at the moon, it’s now more important than ever to solve that issue.
Couple companies out there with Li-cycle being the most well known name, but St. Georges Eco-mining and who I believe to be the future of the industry in American Battery Technology. Their CEO Ryan Melsert is a former Tesla guy and his intellect is at a different level compared to his peer competitors.
Interesting video for a little insight - https://youtu.be/R-TpCei5MWQ
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What do we do today with old cars? Many are scrapped I imagine and the metals melted and reused. Batteries would be more of a challenge.
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today's car batteries are recycled, but lead based
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And they are quite a bit simpler than the Tesla batteries.
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What do we do today with old cars? Many are scrapped I imagine and the metals melted and reused. Batteries would be more of a challenge.
It’s the exact reason there’s a race among a few of these companies to extract the metals from these new batteries in a form that is reusable. The team in Fernley, NV, down the road from Tesla seem to have a special process, but only been done on a small scale. Whichever company can build the process on a large scale will solve a problem that is on a timer, with seriously environmental consequences if not solved.
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Venting for EV Battery Packs - Tech Briefs (https://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/tb/supplements/bt/features/articles/37432?utm_medium=social&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=tebbtga110121&gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3knhPnnGxFr_tfoStIk3utUNp-Ak_LLL07Knuc-Lg7NA8IjDQ0EcjyoaAkiWEALw_wcB)
Hybrid/EV Battery Recycling - GlobalTech Environmental (https://www.globaltechenvironmental.com/recycling-services/battery-recycling/hybrid-ev/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3klnrLE5ViL5kR-xq9bWvNeJTS5eCoDZ-o8Gz-0TUCSXYVSYGavUyjMaAsh5EALw_wcB)
Cars Are Going Electric. What Happens to the Used Batteries? | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/)
More than 95 percent of them are recycled today because consumers can claim deposits when they return the batteries, and they are relatively simple to dismantle. Lithium-ion battery packs are, by contrast, heavy machines with dozens of components and radically different designs depending on their manufacturer. “The voltages in these batteries are lethal,” says Latham, who trains salvagers just getting started with EVs. “People don’t know the risks involved.”
Extracting the valuable materials from an EV battery is difficult and expensive. The recycling process typically involves shredding batteries, then breaking them down further with heat or chemicals at dedicated facilities. That part is relatively simple. The harder part is getting dead batteries to those facilities from wherever they met their demise. About 40 percent of the overall cost (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344921003645) of recycling, according to one recent study, is transportation. EV battery packs are so massive they need to be shipped by truck (not airplane) in specially designed cases, often across vast distances, to reach centralized recycling facilities. Handling lithium-ion batteries is so demanding that dealerships have chosen to ship an entire 4,000-pound damaged vehicle to Oklahoma City, just so SNT can extract and repair or recycle the 1,000-pound battery inside.
In all, the journey is so labor- and resource-intensive that it generally exceeds the costs of digging up new materials from the ground. Currently, the only battery material that can be recycled profitably is cobalt, because it’s just that rare and expensive. For the same reason, many battery makers hope to eliminate it from their chemistries soon, threatening to make the value proposition for recyclers even harder. “Recycling is not going to be profitable for everybody. That’s fantasy economics,” says Leo Raudys, CEO of Call2Recycle, a nonprofit that handles recycling logistics for dead batteries. Even cobalt-free batteries are toxic and a fire danger, though they still contain plenty of valuable materials, like lithium and nickel. But recycling them responsibly is simply less profitable.
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This looks to be a major challenge, or we'll end up with old EVs being just left randomly somewhere because it's too expensive to deal with the battery.
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(https://i.imgur.com/XA64IcG.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/nK2P6oB.png)
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Lyriq is saying ~300 miles range and 76 miles in 10 minutes on fast charger, which is decent. It would be nice to see a chart of time versus recharge for someone, what do you get for 20 minutes?
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https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/business/autos/2022/03/17/battery-fires-recalls-threaten-ev-acceptance/6117505001/?for-guid=afd18762-dfbe-11ea-9990-9e58a90e042d&utm_source=detroitnews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily_briefing&utm_term=hero&utm_content=1008DN-E-NLETTER65
EVs catching on fire.
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Electric vehicle market growing more slowly in U.S. than China, Europe | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-electric-vehicle-market-slow-growth-in-u-s-faster-in-china-europe/)
(https://i.imgur.com/HFMUkrO.png)
Let's imagine somehow we turned on some switch, magically, and half of all new vehicles (cars and LTs) were electric. A miracle. To keep it simple, stay at half for ten years. That would be almost 9 million new vehicles on the road each year that are EVs. Wow. Fantastic. And after ten years, 90 million, which would be about one THIRD of the fleet. Now, I do think EVs are coming, but slowly, certainly not fast enough to make any short term difference in our oil usage. (The real curve will of course be more gradual and we might reach that 50% in ten years, which means the above is implausible.)
And we'll need quite a bit more electric power from somewhere as this happens.
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EEI Celebrates 1 Million Electric Vehicles on U.S. Roads (https://www.eei.org/resourcesandmedia/newsroom/Pages/Press Releases/EEI Celebrates 1 Million Electric Vehicles on U-S-)
- The number of EVs on U.S. roads is projected to reach 18.7 million in 2030, up from 1 million at the end of 2018. This is about 7 percent of the 259 million vehicles (cars and light trucks) expected to be on U.S. roads in 2030.
- Annual sales of EVs will exceed 3.5 million vehicles in 2030, reaching more than 20 percent of annual vehicle sales in 2030. Compared to the prior forecast released in 2017, EV sales are estimated to be 1.4 million in 2025 versus 1.2 million.
- About 9.6 million charge ports will be required to support 18.7 million EVs in 2030. This represents a significant investment in EV charging infrastructure.
This is really pretty small in terms of cutting gasoline usage.
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Let's imagine somehow we turned on some switch, magically, and half of all new vehicles (cars and LTs) were electric. A miracle. To keep it simple, stay at half for ten years. That would be almost 9 million new vehicles on the road each year that are EVs. Wow. Fantastic. And after ten years, 90 million, which would be about one THIRD of the fleet. Now, I do think EVs are coming, but slowly, certainly not fast enough to make any short term difference in our oil usage. (The real curve will of course be more gradual and we might reach that 50% in ten years, which means the above is implausible.)
And we'll need quite a bit more electric power from somewhere as this happens.
As I've said before, my reticence at getting an EV is mostly due to schedule. At the time I needed to buy the Flex (early 2017), the only EV on the market that even remotely met my needs would be the Tesla Model X, and that thing was a $70K+ vehicle, and the charging infrastructure wasn't great--including in my [rented] house where I don't have an L2 charger installed.
My eldest starts HS this year, meaning that about 4 years from now, my passenger-seating needs will start reducing. At that point the Flex will have likely ticked over 100K miles (pending how much WFH continues after the end of the pandemic), and so I'll be in the position to start thinking about a replacement.
My hope is that the F-150 Lightning is a success--I think that would be a great next vehicle.
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Updated Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup EPA Range Leaked Through Window Stickers? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ev-pickup-truck-epa-range-monroney/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2coB8CUdL8FpR3-lkEjKibpfR-3CUj-RUFhxWQCKQnHHaIRYOgWl8a-Zk)
According to the stickers, Ford's standard range battery setup (98 kWh) will deliver 230 miles in Pro trim. The extended range battery pack (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-battery-capacity-range/) (131 kWh) is estimated to offer 320 miles for both the Pro and Lariat trims, and slightly less, 300 miles, for the Platinum. Vehicle charge time at 240V listed for the standard-range Pro trim is 11.9 hours on the window sticker, the extended-range Pro and Lariat trims are listed at 10.1 hours, and the Platinum trim is 9.3 hours.
I think 230 miles is over kill for many applications for a work truck, same with delivery vans. A lot of trucks are never driven intercity.
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Fleetzero’s Container Ship Battery-Swapping Scheme May Help Electrify Shipping
Fleetzero has a plan to reduce shipping emissions.
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/18/fleetzeros-container-ship-battery-swapping-scheme-may-help-electrify-shipping/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/18/fleetzeros-container-ship-battery-swapping-scheme-may-help-electrify-shipping/)
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One of the ads the keeps playing in my Podcasts explains that I already am an electric vehicle. So I guess I got one.
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Heh, I think we can provide slightly over 1 million EVs per year in the US, so that inherent limit applies currently. That figure appears to be headed up quickly, but it will be a while before it reaches 50% of new car sales. It's not going to help with gasoline prices any time soon.
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Learn to Speak EV: Electric Cars Explained for Gearheads (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/electric-cars-explained-gearheads/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2MAG7V2YgXHe1AF25BfXNarPLcQx9a3ZYbpIE5ARPPdsYQZoCPibmdiyI)
For UTEE:
(https://i.imgur.com/ULmN091.png)
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Volt:
Think of the volt as a measurement of electrical "pressure," like you'd find in a common garden hose. For a given diameter of hose, turning up the pressure moves more water. (Water is equivalent to power in this analogy.)
Ampere:
Continuing the garden hose analogy, think of the ampere (aka amp) as a measurement of electrical "flow," with a larger-diameter hose—higher amperage—flowing more water (electrical power) at any given pressure (voltage).
Watt:
Named for James Watt, who also defined the term "horsepower," the watt is a measure of the expenditure of energy over time. The particulars don't really matter here; what does matter is that the watt measures the exact same thing horsepower does. It's just a different unit. Like liters and gallons. One horsepower is equal to 745.7 watts.
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Are we really thinking the public is gonna go out and spend $30,000 on an electric car with a max range of around 200 miles
https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-439849/
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Some will obviously, but if we all wanted one somehow, the supply doesn't exist. The ones being made are being bought.
I've noted before that a family with one EV for around town and a hybrid or ICE car for trips would be well situated, in time. I don't think we're at equal economics yet except maybe in California.
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Saw one of these on I-75 yesterday. Interesting looks.
(https://i.imgur.com/qS85idF.png)
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The US buys around 18 million cars and LTs a year, about a million of them are EVs, some more are hydrids. That figure is obviously going up, I have read various projections as to how fast, but it's not going to be all that fast, maybe a third may be EVs and plug ins by 2030. We will have ICE cars around for decades.
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I like that the German (and some others) EV's are almost the same body as their real cars.
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Most of the major mfg EVs look like their regular cars, I think, they have common styling features.
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Well, there was a whole lot of ugly in the past.
It's like they did it on purpose so people would not want cars that don't need oil products.
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(https://i.imgur.com/xPocoMw.png)
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General Motors’ 10 New Electric Cars Foreshadow Seachange In What We Drive (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-needs-electric-corvette-opinion/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0B32R2TXdi8R2zIbNBQv3LyFI2qwUgq2hHUFYmW5gKj5EYYLb753LW1JI)
The stated goals could be missed of course, but a million EVs by 2025 would be significant, and Ford and VW et al. are on similar trajectories. One wonders if parts shortages will be a limiter. We COULD see 4 million EVs sold in the US by around 2025, out of 18 million total, which starts to be a real thing. I'm cautious on these figures.
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Scotty Kilmer is great if you're not familiar with him great mechanic giving viewers great advice on all sorts of vehicles .I time stamped it where he discusses the ridiculous Government attempt to impliment electric cars
https://youtu.be/chnIjlh1Guk?t=495
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I don't think the plan, such as it is, is to happen quickly obviously. Most cars are going to be ICE for a long time, maybe we hit 50-50 by 2045 or so, maybe.
And yes, the PO doesn't have the money, it would probably make sense for them longer term if they did.
I eschew folks who scream at me.
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I dont think we will see real big EV growth until the problem of how to recharge in the same amount of time to fill a tank with gas is solved
Being able to only use EVs around town is not enough
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You can already add 100 miles of range in a few minutes at a supercharger, so it's not really all that bad, and many families have two cars and one is used solely around town. The larger issue right now I think is the added expense, the money just doesn't work out, yet, except maybe in CA.
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I dont think we will see real big EV growth until the problem of how to recharge in the same amount of time to fill a tank with gas is solved
Being able to only use EVs around town is not enough
well, it certainly doesn't work in rural areas
of course not many folks live in rural areas, so not a great factor
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A common household lives in the burbs, the man drives say 25 miles to work one way, the woman drives 20 miles doing errands and taking kids about, this is a bit of a stereotype. The man can easily manage with an EV, but the price premium right now doesn't justify it. I don't think it's range and charging time that is the main impediment.
It's $$$$$$$$. Of course if gas hits $8 per, that would change.
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A common household lives in the burbs, the man drives say 25 miles to work one way, the woman drives 20 miles doing errands and taking kids about, this is a bit of a stereotype. The man can easily manage with an EV, but the price premium right now doesn't justify it. I don't think it's range and charging time that is the main impediment.
It's $$$$$$$$. Of course if gas hits $8 per, that would change.
Thats what Biden and his buddies are counting on
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There simply aren't enough EVs available right now to matter in the US even if we all wanted one.
There won't be enough to make any significant dent in gasoline demand for years.
Europe already has had very expensive has and EVs hardly have taken hold there, yet.
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Payback time with an EV
Travel 200 miles a week
assuming a gas driven car gets 20 miles per gallon at $5 a gallon thats saving $50 a week saved on gas
Cost of EV is $30,000
50 goes into 30000 600 times or weeks to pay back cost of EV
payback time = about 12 years
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car?
https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/)
Tesla Superchargers and other fast-charging networks like Electrify America and EVGo bill by kWh whenever possible, but you may also be billed by the minute depending on state regulations. According to Electrify America, “We believe pricing on a per-kWh basis offers a fair and consistent charging experience to EV drivers. We are working with regulators to follow the various processes that are required for us to provide EV charging on a per-kWh basis.”
Exclusively using DC fast chargers when it’s not complimentary — as with our Model Y — would shrink cost savings versus charging at home. Frequent DC fast charging is also not recommended as it can degrade battery health more quickly. Exclusively Supercharging would cost $84 to drive a Model Y 1,000 miles at $0.30 per kWh, versus $39.54 at home, using EPA combined efficiency figures.
Electricity Vs. Gasoline Costs
When charging at home, EVs are more affordable to refuel versus comparable gasoline cars, but don’t confuse that with electric cars being immediately cheaper to own because, at the moment, the extra expense related to buying an EV and installing home-charging equipment doesn’t make a quick payoff a sure bet. Relative to your existing electrical bill, charging an EV could mean a sharp increase, but in most cases, the cost is considerably lower than fueling a gasoline-powered car. The Department of Energy says on average, it costs about half as much to drive an EV versus a comparable gas car.
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One factor you’re not taking into effect is that as EV’s become more mainstream the price of the batteries has dropped drastically. For example, there is research that shows that the price per kWh has dropped 10 fold in the last ten years. We went from paying ~$1,000 per kWh to about $100 per kWh. Now the question is how much more can prices drop as economies of scale increase.
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The real comparison would be a new EV versus a comparable new ICE car of similar qualities. Electricity here is really cheap, around 6 cents per kWhr, so recharging here would be cheap at home. We have two chargers in our building, third party, I don't know how much that costs. You need around 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles.
As I keep saying, this is going to take a while. I don't think anyone who posts here was an EV, or plans to buy one "soon".
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The real comparison would be a new EV versus a comparable new ICE car of similar qualities. Electricity here is really cheap, around 6 cents per kWhr, so recharging here would be cheap at home. We have two chargers in our building, third party, I don't know how much that costs. You need around 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles.
As I keep saying, this is going to take a while. I don't think anyone who posts here was an EV, or plans to buy one "soon".
If your reason for replacing an ICE with a EV is to save money and the payback time to start saving money is 12 years not many will jump on that
and notice I didnt give any cost to recharging an EV in my calculation
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I'm talking about a person considering a new vehicle purchase. That is how we get replacement of an ICE with an EV.
The cost differential is on the order of $10,000, give or take. That is the main problem.
I doubt many folks with a perfectly fine 2 year old vehicle is going to buy an EV to try and save money, if they did, you'd need to factor trade in costs.
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I'm talking about a person considering a new vehicle purchase. That is how we get replacement of an ICE with an EV.
The cost differential is on the order of $10,000, give or take. That is the main problem.
I doubt many folks with a perfectly fine 2 year old vehicle is going to buy an EV to try and save money, if they did, you'd need to factor trade in costs.
it does not matter if you are buying an EV to save money the payback time to repay your investment is the same
When a person buys an EV they are sacrificing some freedom in return for saving money for not buying gas
Just how long does it take to see a savings for buying an EV and I say right now its 12 years
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I've driven over 10,000 miles for business since the 1st of the year.
Rural South Dakota, Nebraska, and Iowa.
Doesn't include personal miles
I've noticed just one EV - on I-80 West of Lincoln, heading West
don't see em, don't hear about them, don't notice charging stations
city slickers can be first adopters
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The payback time may be more than 12 years depending on how one calculates. I'd take the cost of an EV vs the cost of a comparable ICE vehicle as the difference. These new pickup trucks may very well be good values, if you have the money to buy a new one. The cost differential vs a similar ICE LT is not that great.
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Here's when you can buy the Cadillac Lyriq | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/auto/when-can-buy-cadillac-lyriq)
(https://i.imgur.com/X3m0eFd.jpg)
The angular styling is controversial I think. I suspect someone will find a style of EV that is matched with EV capabilities, no large engine in the front with cooling needs. The front could be aerodynamic and smooth in principle. Might be an ugly jelly bean. The above is not a very good angle, I think, I'm not a fan (nor in the market). Starts at $60 K for base model.
The wheel/tire combo seems over sized to me.
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That thing is ugly, but I don't like ANY of the small SUV and/or crossover type vehicles. They all look like a crappy version of a station wagon to me. If you're gonna go wagon, go all the way.
(https://i.imgur.com/iDTEUqX.png)
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Most are station wagons with a bit of lift. I routinely see folks here driving Chevy Subdivisions around town of course.
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bad breed between a station wagon and minivan
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GM’s Ultium Electric Car Platform Technology: Everything You Need to Know (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ultium-platform-technology-explained/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR06WKiVm1eYCqze7kYfSM5ec6PoCoaSgZMoNbvysyl7jCDuQNdgEfdv-wk)
Probably some spin in this.
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so, I pull up to the Hilton Downtown in Des Moines Monday afternoon about 4pm.
In front of the hotel in the unloading area, a Tesla with "Iluvtesla" plates is parked and plugged into the charger. It was there Tuesday evening still plugged in.
The Hotel parking lot was full because of the Telecom conference I was attending.
douche
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Charged EVs | St Louis’s new fleet of 18 New Flyer electric buses powered by ABB chargers - Charged EVs (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/st-louiss-new-fleet-of-18-new-flyer-electric-buses-powered-by-abb-chargers/?fbclid=IwAR3U6ucYgByl-hGBsZhgPnzVjhUu5bo9qi1uMKxSkJR8YMToWFWjrKy63oo)
Seems like a great idea to me, but nothing about how much they cost initially.
(https://i.imgur.com/wkaQRcb.png)
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Electrifying Vehicles Likely Won't Disrupt the Grid | RealClearScience (https://www.realclearscience.com/2022/04/02/electrifying_vehicles_likely_wont_disrupt_the_grid_825063.html?fbclid=IwAR28eHctzU0jkY0SWMc_G_Y8wKEpAygP54t9zm_4iWxjGp0GMquW-hW1sZw)
"Likely", says it's about the same as when AC came along. No figures.
I do appreciate that EV adoption will be rather gradual, but we will need more power, perhaps mostly at night when there is often excess power available at least in summer for some reason.
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The power consumption varies depending on various factors. On average, a central air conditioner unit can use approximately 3,000 watts per hour during warmer days. When you run your air conditioner at a fan-only mode, it consumes around 750 watts each hour. Large, portable AC units can consume about 4,100 watts hourly, while mid-sized air conditioners use around 2,900 watts each hour. A large window AC uses up to 1,440 watts, a medium one uses 900 watts, and a small model uses about 500 watts.
I read separately an EV can use about 300 kwhr per month, call it 10 kwhr per day, to recharge. If you AC uses 3 kw per hour for say 10 hours, that is of course 30 per day. I'm not sure about this. And of course, the time of day usage for these two things is going to be different. It would seem to require more power at night when solar is not contributing but less power is needed as AC is working less often. What is going to provide this additional power? Coal?
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the wind blows at night
saw one of the new "mustangs" yesterday
not only wasn't a mustang
was ugly no matter the name plate
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Wind can blow at night, sure. There are locations where it's pretty constant. But solar won't help much with EV recharging, while it would be AC usage. I would think nearly every home in Phoenix would have PV panels for this reason, but they don't. I figure it must simply cost too much. If it doesn't make sense there ...
It would be nice if some outfit would offer to provide and install PVs on your rooftop and guarantee some kind of return, maybe they'd offer loans as well and explain how you can pay it back and come out ahead on utility savings.
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solar can of course be stored in batteries for use at night
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I can appreciate how difficult it is to estimate the possible load on our grid of electrification of transport.
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(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/277738155_2822015271434604_4571972601954385368_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ldygxeSUZY8AX9wxqTR&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_r6Es9uGXTL1SPkgp3o9A0IdoT5Hx7xHEUhvadItTsrw&oe=624FB584)
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the wind blows at night
saw one of the new "mustangs" yesterday
not only wasn't a mustang
was ugly no matter the name plate
Ford's really done a terrible job with branding lately. The danger of using a premier mark in order to produce a halo effect, is of course the dilution or degradation of the core brand.
By calling their new weird electrical thing a "Mustang" even with the sub-designation of "Mach E" they are creating brand confusion and the results are harmful to their main mark, the Mustang.
And then the release of the Bronco "Sport" ahead of the full-sized Bronco, has done quite a bit of damage to the premier mark that is the Bronco. They generated so much excitement about re-releasing a full-sized Bronco, but then when the little Bronco Sport hit the market a year earlier than its big brother, lots of people were confused and assumed they'd just ditched the plans on the full sized Bronco and settled for another Ford Escape type vehicle with different branding.
That's the type of brand confusion that can last for decades, just as the Land Rover/Range Rover branding gaffe has, here in the USA.
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Better Idea
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GM and Honda to develop affordable electric vehicles that cost less than $30,000 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/05/gm-and-honda-to-partner-on-affordable-electric-vehicles.html)
The profits to be had are in trucks and SUVs and vans, I think, not small cars, but OK I guess.
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small cars are good in city driving - short trips
if affordable, many young folks will buy them
if it wasn't profitable GM and Honda wouldn't make them
I purchased a small car yesterday, pick it up today
2017 Chevy Impala - Flex Fuel - not electric
Flex fuel = E85
85% corn juice - about 28% less MPG
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The Jeep is our main in-city driving vehicle. It's narrow, pretty short for being a 4-door, tight turning radius, easy to park in tight spaces, and it can even pop curbs and maneuver over and around other types of urban obstacles when necessary.
The F150 supercrew cab, on the other hand, is strictly for the suburbs and country driving.
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I'm thinking the profit margins on a $30 K EV won't be near what they would be on a pickup, even percentagewise. But, yes, if it's a decent car and comparable to say a $25 K ICE car, it would get some sales.
I see quite a few pickups in town, I imagine most are workers coming to build or fix.
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EV Motors Explained (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a39493798/ev-motors-explained/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR3IYYjrhta0DumnwWyDVvqsf8IAfle82d-xfNg9K0eKqXONsryWXKqfArk)
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small cars are good in city driving - short trips
if affordable, many young folks will buy them
if it wasn't profitable GM and Honda wouldn't make them
I purchased a small car yesterday, pick it up today
2017 Chevy Impala - Flex Fuel - not electric
Flex fuel = E85
85% corn juice - about 28% less MPG
who cares
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Japan’s heavyweight motorcycle manufacturers known as the Big Four have unveiled a new electric motorbike battery swapping program called Gachaco. But what Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki haven’t come right out and said is that instead of the highly anticipated innovative new motorcycle battery standard, it’s looking a lot like a blue version of Gogoro.
The Big Four have supposedly been working on this big roll out for quite some time; we first heard about their ambitions for a swappable electric motorcycle battery standard all the way back in 2019.
You know, in the before times.
Back then, it sounded like they were developing something large enough to power mid-size electric motorcycles and that could be standardized across manufacturers. It appears the latter part might have been right, but the “motorcycle” part of electric motorcycle batteries seems to have been more or less replaced with “scooter” in this case.
That’s because the swappable battery standard that the Big Four have landed on isn’t very large at all, and instead looks like a blue filter applied to Gogoro’s 1.7 kWh swappable electric scooter batteries. Multiple batteries can of course be used together to power a single vehicle, offering more capacity and thus longer range. That’s exactly what Honda already does with its swappable batteries in its PCX electric scooter.
And in the three years that the four major motorcycle manufacturers have been working on the project, it seems like they haven’t as much developed a new battery standard as they have simply defaulted to using Honda’s PCX batteries that were unveiled in 2018.
https://electrek.co/2022/04/08/honda-yamaha-suzuki-and-kawasaki-roll-out-swappable-electric-motorcycle-batteries-but-its-really-just-a-gogoro-competitor/ (https://electrek.co/2022/04/08/honda-yamaha-suzuki-and-kawasaki-roll-out-swappable-electric-motorcycle-batteries-but-its-really-just-a-gogoro-competitor/)
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I was pondering this whilst driving back today. The trip is 472 miles. I was getting about 35 mpg using premium, so about 13.5 gallons of gas at about $4 per (Costco), = $54.
An EV with 300 miles range, well, I'd stop after 280 or so and recharge 100 miles taking about 15 minutes and then again to recharge, if I could find a supercharger of course. Then I'd have the range taking about 30 minutes to recharge. I saw no charger at the motel, maybe there was one around somewhere.
You need about 33 kWhr of electricity for 100 miles range, it costs on average I think 12 cents per, or $4 for 100 miles, if I did this right, or about $20 for the trip. An EV equivalent to my GTI would probably cost $10 K or so more than I paid. We're not there.
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Auto executives say more than half of U.S. car sales will be EVs by 2030, KPMG survey shows (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/30/auto-executives-say-more-than-half-of-us-car-sales-will-be-evs-by-2030-kpmg-survey-shows.html)
This sounds possible to me, about what I was guessing, maybe a bit optimistic. But that means 9 million or so EVs going into the market, which is not many as compared to how many are on the roads now. Maybe by 2040, we'd see half the vehicles on the road being EVs. Maybe.
Our car is four years old, low mileage, I have no notion of trading for anything else. It should last 10 at least. Maybe by 2030 I MIGHT consider an EV?
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EVs would have to grow to 140 Mil which because there are still major problems to solve and needed infrastructure still to be built seems not doable by 2030
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Half of sales by 2030
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Half of sales by 2030
ok my bad
but as Ive pointed out before there will have to be more incentive to buy then just fuel savings
Gas prices will eventually get back to $3 a gal when we get the plant out of the WH
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For EVs to become widely accepted, I think we need:
1. Many more superchargers with standardized plugs, no more than two.
2. Slightly better range, maybe 350 miles, and some options for shorter range urban vehicles.
3. Lower prices overall, no more than a 15% price premium over ICE.
EVs generally have good acceleration and a low center of gravity which aids handling and lower operating costs. If you can add 100 miles of range in 10-15 minutes, that would be acceptable for many, and most of our driving is short distances anyway.
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I definitely see them as the future. 100 years from now, I don't think the ICE will still be around in any meaningful way. That statement will probably be true 80 years from now.
But 50 years from now? I still see a decent amount of ICE vehicles out there in the world. I think current projections of a relatively rapid switchover are pretty optimistic, if only because I just don't see the electrical grid and remote charging infrastructure getting there quick enough to support the stated goals/expectations.
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I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.
Trains will have been electrified, planes I don't know, could be on hydrogen, heavy trucks could be on hydrogen (fuel cells) maybe. I think by then only EVs will be sold as cars and LTs. This would mean the end of the large "oil company", we'd still need oil for chemicals.
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Where is all the lithium gonna come from?
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I don't really think it's a problem longer term, it's a very common element in the Earth's crust. Shorter term it's an issue because we haven't discovered more locations rich in deposites, but that will happen as the price rises. And newer batteries likely will use less of it and other heavier metals.
The issue of dealing with scrapped batteries is interesting, and somebody will devise a solution I expect and make a lot of dough.
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Maybe we can annex South America?
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I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.
Yeah not in 50 years. There are too many use cases where battery technology, both current and expected in the midterm future, just aren't going to cut it. I say 80 years because I'm allowing for massive innovation but if that doesn't occur then 100 might still be more realistic.
Battery technology isn't advancing anywhere close to the pace that semiconductors are, or pretty much any other mainstream hardware miniaturization. And we can't make assumptions that it will.
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I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.
Trains will have been electrified, planes I don't know, could be on hydrogen, heavy trucks could be on hydrogen (fuel cells) maybe. I think by then only EVs will be sold as cars and LTs. This would mean the end of the large "oil company", we'd still need oil for chemicals.
Trains can easily be electric because they are confined to a predefined route where the electericty can be supplied to them instead of having to carry it with them, ie batteries. If trains required batteries, they would still be powered by diesel engines.
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Train engines today are partly electric. Every train I saw in France was electric, they have a lot of nonTGV trains going hither and yon.
Fifty years is a long time obviously. 1972? I recall in 1980 I though the ICE in cars was done, peak oil etc. and by 2000 we'd have something else.
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Train engines today are partly electric. Every train I saw in France was electric, they have a lot of nonTGV trains going hither and yon.
Fifty years is a long time obviously. 1972? I recall in 1980 I though the ICE in cars was done, peak oil etc. and by 2000 we'd have something else.
Yup, this is getting directly to my point. Advances in technology in this area just aren't coming rapidly, and they really never have. A prehistoric pace, compared to advances in so many other technological fields.
And I don't believe we can assume that all of a sudden the velocity of advancement will increase dramatically, when there's no historical evidence to support that.
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I could be wrong, obviously, but car makers and governments are pushing very hard in this direction. Norway has already exceeded 50% sales of EVs.
I suspect it will be slower than some car makers claim, but in 50 years? I've noted these new LTs seem really close in the value equation. I'd like to see a basic cheap "work truck" with maybe 150 miles range and no trinkets, I think that would sell for plumbers et al.
I'm less sanguine about the hydrogen gambit for obvious reasons.
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As I've said before, there are several use cases that are not viable with current battery technology, or even expected future battery technology based on the current rate of advancement.
Long haul trucking, and basically towing of any kind, are not currently supportable. I believe hybrid solutions are ideal for these applications and use cases, but that would still involve having ICE onboard.
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Fuel cells are basically another kind of battery and have the oomph to power large trucks, but I agree heavy hawlers will challenge my timeline.
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Mercedes-Benz EQXX EV Concept Pulls Off a 621-Mile Road Trip (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a39714749/mercedes-benz-eqxx-621-mile-road-trip/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR0UiSfO7IowK-CPSizfBt_DBpS5UD2qp88ia_-kgK5xqAD2Jb4pifcfH00)
Mercedes-Benz is rightly glorying in the fact that it drove its Vision EQXX battery-electric concept (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/) over 621 miles (1000 kilometers) on a single charge. The feat took place on real roads from Stuttgart, Germany, to Cassis, France, in early spring weather ranging from 37 to 64 degrees Fahrenheit, at an average speed of 53 miles per hour. That middling speed was no hypermiling; the route included autobahn stints with extensive cruising at up to 87 mph, offset by Europe's congested urban traffic.
Mercedes pulled the caper with a 100.0-kWh battery that it claimed still contained 87 miles of range at the end of the trip. Compare that to the Lucid Air Grand Touring (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39696167/lucid-air-grand-touring-performance-revealed/), which leads the North American pack in production EV range at an EPA-rated 516 miles thanks to a 112.0-kWh battery.
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MARTA's first electric buses to debut this week. Have a look | Urbanize Atlanta (https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/marta-first-electric-buses-coming-earth-day-photos)
Seems like a coming thing also. They sound expensive though.
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watched 60 minutes last night
seems to be many forms of electric transportation coming
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Here's my go to on line auto mechanic informative and funny.He thinks that Ocean Freighter that sunk on march 2nd was because of the batteries in the electric models causing the vessel to go up like a roman candle.The Felicity Ace had been carrying nearly 4,000 vehicles from various Volkswagen Group brands.The ship did not release any pollutants into the water as it burned, according to the shipping company. The environmental impact of the ship's total immersion in the water isn't yet known.Ya right
https://youtu.be/8eNf6LGelI4?t=74
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SITE OF THE DAY:
11 rules for buying an ebike, and the 11 ebikes to buy now
https://ryanj.substack.com/p/ebikes?s=r (https://ryanj.substack.com/p/ebikes?s=r)
Ebikes are about to change the world. They are already the best selling electric vehicles, and are selling as fast as factories can make them.
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A great way- the new “thing” to compare cars: the U-Drag.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x7m_T5MX8NQ
If you wonder why this posted in the Electric Vehicles thread….these cars do have electric components 😂
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(https://i.imgur.com/uILp03s.jpg)
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I saw one calculation that if an EV uses coal for the electricity, it still works out to be beneficial for CO2 production. This did not include any cost of making the EV. It was interesting.
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Nice combo- hybrid
https://youtu.be/8VdYxORPT9s
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Nice combo- hybrid
https://youtu.be/8VdYxORPT9s
That I would drive.
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High performance cars soon enough will have no manual trans option and be hydrids or full EVs. Somebody might make a throwback.
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GM’s Electric BrightDrop Zero 600 Van Snags Distance Record With 260-Mile* Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/brightdrop-zevo-600-distance-record-guinness/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1u9QEcOw7r3lEfDOEzFYDvsuKqpS-XyzERfdw1-3vwtHzVh6fmVQf8eqQ)
(https://i.imgur.com/maPidYM.png)
This makes sense to me, depending on initial cost.
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I passed two school busses in the park yesterday that had dropped of kids, both were sitting, and idling, with no apparent notion of turning them off. The drivers were present, no kids, just idling, nice day, in the shade, no need for AC. Idling away. Gas powered.
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A research team at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST) has developed a high-energy density, ultrafast rechargeable hybrid lithium-ion battery that can be used in smart electronic devices and EVs. “The hybrid lithium-ion battery, which has a high energy density (285 Wh/kg) and can be rapidly charged with a high-power density (22,600 W/kg), is overcoming the limitations of the current energy storage system,” Professor Jung-Goo Kang of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering said. “It will be a breakthrough.” The research team synthesized a porous carbon hollow structure with a large surface area by changing the orientation of the polymer resin from linear to twisted. When the twisted resin was carbonized, more micropores were formed, and a carbon structure with a surface area 12 times larger than that of the conventional linear resin was created. The carbon structure created through this process was used as a capacitor-type cathode material. In addition, the anode was made using a germanium-embedded hollow carbon nanosphere material to reduce degradation and maximize the dispersion of lithium ions. The researchers found that the hybrid lithium-ion battery using those special electrodes had an energy density comparable to that of conventional lithium-ion batteries and the power density characteristics of a capacitor, affording recharge within a minute.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/04/22/the-mobility-revolution-hybrid-lithium-ion-battery-capable-of-recharging-within-a-minute/ (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/04/22/the-mobility-revolution-hybrid-lithium-ion-battery-capable-of-recharging-within-a-minute/)
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GM says it will produce electric Chevrolet Corvettes (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/gm-says-it-will-produce-electric-chevrolet-corvettes.html)
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GM says it will produce electric Chevrolet Corvettes (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/gm-says-it-will-produce-electric-chevrolet-corvettes.html)
This seems like a good idea but is it
Folks that drive Corvettes dont really care about saving by use of electricity over gasoline
Just kinda feels like when coke came out with "new coke"
we'll see
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The first will be a hybrid, with something like 1000 hp and AWD. Down the line we'd see a pure EV. Bear in mind an EV often has considerable acceleration.
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US electric car sales jumped to an impressive record high last quarter - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/04/28/us-electric-car-sales-jumped-record-high-last-quarter/?fbclid=IwAR153KSnhw7GfgkCWJro5kCtT9l4P31Z8t9RhuDnPs3TB1Lx6Z7BnI_58Mo)
Electric car sales in the United States jumped to a record high of over 200,000 vehicles during the last quarter (Q1 2022).
It’s a good sign, but the US EV market is still extremely reliant on Tesla and California.
The United States is trailing far behind Europe and China when it comes to electrifying its passenger car market. There are many factors at play, including weaker incentives and a preference for pickup trucks, which is a segment that is just now being electrified.
But, we are starting to see a significant increase in EV adoption over the last year, and this last quarter was particularly important for EV adoption in the United States.
Using data from the California Energy Commission (CEC) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB), Veloz (https://www.veloz.org/ev-market-report/) published a new report on EV sales in the United States that shows a record number (over 208,000) of electric vehicles delivered in the country during Q1 2022.
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US electric car sales jumped to an impressive record high last quarter - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/04/28/us-electric-car-sales-jumped-record-high-last-quarter/?fbclid=IwAR153KSnhw7GfgkCWJro5kCtT9l4P31Z8t9RhuDnPs3TB1Lx6Z7BnI_58Mo)
Electric car sales in the United States jumped to a record high of over 200,000 vehicles during the last quarter (Q1 2022).
It’s a good sign, but the US EV market is still extremely reliant on Tesla and California.
The United States is trailing far behind Europe and China when it comes to electrifying its passenger car market. There are many factors at play, including weaker incentives and a preference for pickup trucks, which is a segment that is just now being electrified.
But, we are starting to see a significant increase in EV adoption over the last year, and this last quarter was particularly important for EV adoption in the United States.
Using data from the California Energy Commission (CEC) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB), Veloz (https://www.veloz.org/ev-market-report/) published a new report on EV sales in the United States that shows a record number (over 208,000) of electric vehicles delivered in the country during Q1 2022.
GM/Ford/Chrysler have done nothing to make a dent in EV sales in the US. It's literally all Tesla. Which is why it's weird af to me that Biden didn't invite Musk or Tesla to his most recent EV summit at the White House- and why he keeps praising GM for all their work on EV's. GM sold like 25 EV's last quarter. Tesla? 200,000. Tesla is manufactuing over 1 million EV's a year now. GM? In the few thousands or maybe even 10,000 at best. Actually, it's not that weird come to think of it, Biden is a f**king senile old brain dead moron.
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It is not literally all Tesla, 70% is not 100%. Literally.
And that percentage of EVs sold is headed down for obvious reasons.
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It is not literally all Tesla, 70% is not 100%. Literally.
And that percentage of EVs sold is headed down for obvious reasons.
I was talking about US auto makers, you know, the "Big 3" - and yeah, as far as that goes, it basically literally is just f**king Tesla grandpa. Ford has 2% and change of EV market share and GM has 7% and change. Chrysler has a whopping 0%.
Oh gee, just 70%! Their next closest EV competitor is Nissan- who has a whopping 8.5% market share of EVs in US. Volkswagen, Hyuandi, Audi, Porsche, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, Lucid, Smart, Jaguar, Volvo, Polestar, Mini, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazada, Lucid, and couple other foreign companies, all have very small EV US market share but combined it adds up- you're talking about 20 different brands/companies which have around 12+% marketshare combined. Nissan- a Japanese company has 8.5%. That's 20.5+% percent. Tesla has 70%.
That leaves the "Big 3" auto makers with a whopping 9.5% combined to split amongst each other. Yeah, so as far as US auto makers go, it's still pretty much just f**king Tesla. They are manufacturing 1 million EV's a year. GM, Ford, and Chrysler combined don't even manufacture a tenth of that.
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Do you understand the word "literally" and what that means?
How about "hyperbole"?
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Do you understand the word "literally" and what that means?
How about "hyperbole"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo4GWb7HgmU
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The Electric Vehicle Scam
Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris | Jan 15, 2022 | Climate Change, Feature 1, Lifestyle, Politics
The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!
In part 1 of our exposé on the problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford. In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague.
EV Charging Insanity
In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?
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"Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!"
If we read that literally, it's ridiculous.
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heckuva lot more Teslas in the Denver area driving through last week
I saw more Teslas in a 20 minute drive thru Denver on I-76, I-70 than I do in 20 weeks in Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota
must be a big city thing, not a rural thing
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It is an urban thing, clearly. We have chargers all over the place here now. But outside the metro? It gets sketchy.
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Hard to find much outside of metros.
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2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Mega Power Frunk: Details (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a39927869/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-mega-power-frunk/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2CxfHrRlqRq4hrtxw_U_mBpDB1CslVzCr4AG2tlX1YXpcl80nY6lPyOGA)
(https://i.imgur.com/ANp5yv9.png)
The frunk seems to me like a game changer.
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not sure why this is a game changer
the basic problems with electric cars still exist
driving distance from a full charge and length of time to charge were not mentioned
or at least I couldnt find it
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A lot of folks use light duty trucks only for local drives, to work, to a job site, etc. The EF150 does have decent range. You could add 100 miles in 15-20 minutes with a supercharger. The lockable frunk to me would have major appeal.
Final EPA-estimated range for F-150 Lightning:
(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/26a1.png)XLT, Lariat & Pro trims = 320 miles w/ extended range. 230 for standard.
(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/26a1.png)Platinum trim = 300 miles
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2022 Ford F-150 Lightning First Drive: A Monumental Electric Pickup Truck (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0jPD3HfC_x6zjp-Rj3Axg-r-CVrz5WYkjVZLc8tQ8qHRJ3sX7-EyiV-Qg)
MT tends to be on the positive side with their evals, but they seem really charged up about this truck.
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still at $40,000 they are not there yet
not even close
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How much does a new F150 cost with similar equipment levels?
All Lightnings will come with all-wheel drive and a crew cab, so by our approximation the most equivalent gasoline model is the 2021 F-150 XL SuperCrew 4WD with a short bed, which costs $41,855. That base version has a 3.3-liter V-6 engine with 290 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque, which pales in comparison with the base Lightning's 426 hp and 775 pound-feet.
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How much does a new F150 cost with similar equipment levels?
All Lightnings will come with all-wheel drive and a crew cab, so by our approximation the most equivalent gasoline model is the 2021 F-150 XL SuperCrew 4WD with a short bed, which costs $41,855. That base version has a 3.3-liter V-6 engine with 290 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque, which pales in comparison with the base Lightning's 426 hp and 775 pound-feet.
what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.
no news here
wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
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what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.
no news here
wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
I think, for now, that it is very difficult to have an EV as you or your family's only vehicle for this reason. However, I think they are or are getting very close to being a potentially viable option for a multi-car family.
My wife and I have talked about them but, for now, we both have extremely short commutes which pretty much negates the primary benefit of an EV.
For our family's vehicles:
- My commute to work is 2.0 mi each way so 4.0 mi/day or 20 mi/week and I work year-around so approximately 1,040 mi/year.
- My wife's commute to work is slightly longer at 2.2 mi each way or 4.4 mi/day or 22 mi/week but she works for a school so only 36 weeks per year so her commute to/from work is about 792 mi/year.
- The two of us drive a combined 1,832 mi/year commuting to/from work.
Obviously most people have MUCH longer commutes to/from work. For us, getting a more efficient vehicle just doesn't save us much money. To illustrate this I did a comparison on the EPA site where you can compare fuel economy of different vehicles. I picked a Toyota Prius and a Chevy Suburban 4x4, 6.2L gas (without the stop/start, basically I was looking for a REALLY inefficient vehicle). For our combined commutes the annual fuel cost is:
- $650 for the humongous Suburban
- $150 for the Prius.
That is basically the biggest gap I could come up with and it is only $500/year for our commutes.
My wife previously worked farther away, a 19.4 mi trip from our house. If she was still doing that then I think we'd be more serious about an EV. That 19.4 mi commute was about 50/50 City/Highway and that was a year-round job so her annual was 10,088 mi (19.4*2=38.8 per day *5=194 per week *52=10,088 per year). If you go back to the Suburban/Prius comparison the annual fuel costs for that commute are:
- $3,200 for the humongous Suburban
- $850 for the Prius.
Then it would be enough money to be worth considering.
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what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.
no news here
wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
Tesla supercharger will get around 200 miles in about 15 mins and charge up to 80% in about 40 minutes.
Tesla is literally the only EV out there being remotely capable of what you're talking about, as they are really the only ones with a nation wide charging network, which the car is programmed to show where every single Tesla charger and charging station in the country is on the nav.
They are by far the closest, but still not good enough imo.
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No doubt the EV trucks are not suited for everyone, but I'm still impressed with both of them and how well suited they are for a lot of truck owners. I think this is a better market for EVs than cars right now, and the trucks appear to me to be closer to break even than EV cars, advantages are impressive (to me) especially if you don't tow or take long road trips. Delivery vans should be another solid market for these chassis.
Speaking of driving a truck 440 miles or so, the F150 4x4 is rated at 22 mpg highway, so 20 gallons of gas, ~ $100. The cost to charge the EF150 would be somewhere around $20-25 depending.
When using a fast charger, it will only take about 40 to 45 minutes to charge the Ford Lightning to 80%
The average residential electricity rate in the U.S. is 14.19 cents per kilowatt-hour as of December 6, 2021. By Using this price and the equation above we can find how much it would cost to charge the Ford Lightning at your home, which would be 13.91$ for the standard model and 18.59$ for the extended model. This is only an estimation as every state has different electricity rates.
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How far does a typical "work truck" go in a day? I mean one used by plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc.
Maybe 100 miles? A lot of these folks are going to buy used, but a larger company that buys new is going to be attracted to the electric version I think. And of course delivery vans used by UPS etc. should be a no brainer if the cost is roughly on par with ICE vans - no oil changes, almost no brake jobs ... seems near ideal to me. These things must get awful gas mileage today.
And those vans used to get you to the rental car place etc. or motel? Seems like another good market.
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How far does a typical "work truck" go in a day? I mean one used by plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc.
Maybe 100 miles? A lot of these folks are going to buy used, but a larger company that buys new is going to be attracted to the electric version I think. And of course delivery vans used by UPS etc. should be a no brainer if the cost is roughly on par with ICE vans - no oil changes, almost no brake jobs ... seems near ideal to me. These things must get awful gas mileage today.
And those vans used to get you to the rental car place etc. or motel? Seems like another good market.
honestly depends. For the average "work truck", I'd say 100 miles is a great guess though. I know some electricians, plumbers, etc., that will work from Palm Beach all the way to Miami. That's about 65-70 miles each way- plus whatever stops they make in between.
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With just about any average, there will be a distribution about the mean, or median. I think 280 mile range is plenty for a work truck and probably a delivery van. Below is one answer to the question for UPS. Those vans likely get 15 mpg in this sort of driving.
On an average night, a driver travels 75 to 100 miles on deliveries, averaging four solid hours of drive-time mostly on residential streets.
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(https://i.imgur.com/LdJ9UAk.jpg)
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My commute is about 20 steps every morning. Sometimes it's a 3 hour flight.
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Right now the only reason someone would buy an EV is to save on gas
Ive already calculated the payback period for gas savings to pay for a $30,000 car is 10 years
thus there currently is no personal benefit for buying an EV
why would I want to tie myself to a 10 year hole just to drive an EV
now if an EV had equal distance stats and recharge time was 30 minutes or less
then it could be considered
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I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version. It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG). Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes. I think these things will sell like hotcakes.
I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
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I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version. It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG). Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes. I think these things will sell like hotcakes.
I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
I'm not disagreeing but it does depend on what you are doing with it. If you need to be able to tow a heavy trailer even just once in a while I would guess the EV wouldn't work because the battery drainage would be so severe that you couldn't go anywhere.
Another factor is climate. Here in Northern Ohio it is cold a lot. With an ICE vehicle the heat is basically "free" because it is a byproduct of the operation of the ICE but with an EV the heat is most definitely NOT free. Creating heat will drain your powersupply and thus your range gets a LOT shorter if you are running heat/defrost.
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I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version. It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG). Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes. I think these things will sell like hotcakes.
I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
we shall see
if Joe six pack wants to pluck down 40Gs on something that can only be driven in town that will really surprise me
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Ford is currently sold out and unable to take more orders. I described the kind of person who would find this truck appealing, it's not everyone. It's the first EV I personally think makes sense financially for quite a few folks interested in a light duty truck.
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I believe you are correct that the F-150 EV makes sense to in certain situations. However, there is still a need for ICE powered trucks when the EV does not make sense. Unfortunately, there is a wide segment of the population that is unwilling to admit this fact.
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Ford is currently sold out and unable to take more orders. I described the kind of person who would find this truck appealing, it's not everyone. It's the first EV I personally think makes sense financially for quite a few folks interested in a light duty truck.
supply chain issues are hurting them all. Even Tesla is now saying it may have to stop taking orders on certain models because there is way more demand than they have current capacity to actually build the damn things.
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For now, anyone needing to tow any reasonable distance needs an ICE. There is no 2500 equivalent (yet). As UT has noted, a plug in hybrid might be the solution there.
I see a lot of "F150s" around here, workers, contractors, etc. The EV would meet their needs nicely, though as I noted most are buying used.
I'm surprised the price premium is not larger than it apparently is on these trucks. I bet they start out building only the high end models like they do with the Corvette.
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I believe you are correct that the F-150 EV makes sense to in certain situations. However, there is still a need for ICE powered trucks when the EV does not make sense. Unfortunately, there is a wide segment of the population that is unwilling to admit this fact.
This is a really good point and what makes it doubly ridiculous is that some of the people unwilling to admit this are in positions of power and influence.
If you are a contractor in a large urban area I think an EV either already is or will soon be a viable option because you don't drive all that far and there are plenty of charging stations available. It is different if you are using this truck in a very rural area because the distances are necessarily greater and the charging stations are going to be further apart. Add in a need to pull trailers and/or a cold climate (both the cold itself and the need to generate heat are MAJOR drains on the battery) and the EV isn't remotely close to viable.
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CEO Elon Musk had conceptualized and shared the idea of a truck that compared to the Ford F-250 with load-compensating suspension back in 2012. Working from that early concept, Tesla continued to design the Cybertruck over the next several years and hinted at the vehicle in November of 2017 with an image of a “pickup truck that can carry a pickup truck” at the reveal of the Tesla Roadster.
Although the truck was announced late in 2019 following a teaser in March showing the vehicle in a “cyberpunk” style and production on the dual-motor and tri-motor all-wheel drive models was meant to begin late in 2021, followed by the rear-wheel drive iteration in late 2022, the production was pushed back and now is estimated to begin sometime early in 2023.
The Tesla Cybertruck has had three different models announced, with battery range estimates ranging from 250 to 500 miles and estimated accelerations from 0-62 MPH in somewhere between 2.9 and 6.5 seconds. The truck’s rear-wheel drive model started at an MSRP of $39,900 and the all-wheel drive model started at $49.900.
The Cybertruck comes with features such as self-leveling suspension, on-board power inverters, an air compressor, an exterior made of 30x cold-rolled stainless sheet metal, and Tesla armor glass. The bed of the truck is a standard size (6.5 feet in length) with sloped walls and comes with a motorized roller cover. Also, optional is a solar panel roof that would add an addition minimum of fifteen miles of range per day.
The Stunning Interior Of The Cybertruck
The interior of the Cybertruck is unique and continues the futuristic design of the exterior, which could potentially be polarizing to some due to just how different it is. Whether you love it or hate it, though, one thing is certain-you will immediately form an opinion.
The interior was designed by a team led by Franz von Holzhausen and is spacious. The overall exterior design of the truck allows for ample room in the cabin, allowing for plenty of leg space for both the driver and all five potential passengers. The seats are leather and provide support and comfort despite their angular appearance.
Although the prototype was shown with a half steering wheel, it is highly unlikely that the final production model will attempt to have this as it is illegal in many states and many speculate that it was for design purposes only, as an accent to the futuristic image Tesla sought to project for the truck and was never planned to be included on the final model.
The command center of the truck is found in a 17-inch display control panel. The interface is easily navigable, responsive, and able to display all relevant information about the truck as well as act as the control for environmental adjustments, lighting, trip navigation, and entertainment systems. It is the only item on the dashboard, as there are no accents or additional design elements.
With extra storage beneath the back row of seats, the truck offers about 100 cubic-feet of additional space. This will come in handy for those taking advantage of some of the many features, extensions, and add-ons offered for the truck that include things like a snap on bed tent, towing package capable of pulling up to 14,000 lbs., and others that make road-trips and camping treks much more comfortable.
Despite the somewhat bare and minimalist appearance of the interior of the Tesla Cybertruck as compared to other pickups, it is spacious, comfortable, and rife with technology that improves the experience of driving and riding in the vehicle. Able to fit six adults and all your camping supplies comfortably, the Cybertruck interior is classy and sleek and will leave consumers speechless.
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This is a really good point and what makes it doubly ridiculous is that some of the people unwilling to admit this are in positions of power and influence.
If you are a contractor in a large urban area I think an EV either already is or will soon be a viable option because you don't drive all that far and there are plenty of charging stations available. It is different if you are using this truck in a very rural area because the distances are necessarily greater and the charging stations are going to be further apart. Add in a need to pull trailers and/or a cold climate (both the cold itself and the need to generate heat are MAJOR drains on the battery) and the EV isn't remotely close to viable.
I think that sometimes the auto companies, the government and people in general forget that not everyone lives in an urban area. Some of us live in rural areas which require in my case, a 9 mile drive to get to a grocery store, a hardware store or many other conveniences that urban dwellers take for granted. And as you say, my reason for driving a 3/4 ton truck is that I frequently pull trailers/campers or haul material in the bed of the truck. For these reasons, an EV is completely out of the question. Yet there are many people (and as you stated, many in positions of power) that are either oblivious to these scernios or just don't care and are more than willing to mandate that we as a society move away from ICE power to EV's.
Just wait until they try to force this on the farmers whose tractors, combines and semi's will not do well on battery power.
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some folks drive over 29 miles one way to get groceries
not many by percentage, but..........
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Listen to this one more pearls from scotty
https://youtu.be/jbOlCINdsz8?t=83
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I doubt anyone is forced to buy EV in the US, except there will be a time when only EVs are sold as new vehicles, which probably is ca. 2040. I've noted before that many two car families would do well with one EV and one ICE, IF the EV presented a reasonable value proposition in starting cost. This won't work for everyone, but it's going to be attractive, I think, for quite a few if supply can keep up and if prices come down more.
The process will be slower than many wish, but it's coming.
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I doubt anyone is forced to buy EV in the US, except there will be a time when only EVs are sold as new vehicles, which probably is ca. 2040. I've noted before that many two car families would do well with one EV and one ICE, IF the EV presented a reasonable value proposition in starting cost. This won't work for everyone, but it's going to be attractive, I think, for quite a few if supply can keep up and if prices come down more.
The process will be slower than many wish, but it's coming.
We do just fine with that setup.
(https://i.imgur.com/KOKJjpU.jpg)
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love the yamaha
shoulda bought a gasser
better range
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Gas is not allowed on the golf course in here. It's a big neighborhood so we use it a lot to tool around. Plenty of range for how we use it.
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I see Chevy has reduced pricing on their Bolt, which is not very popular (fires). It seems like a decent enough vehicle otherwise. It is not based on their Ultium platform.
This makes it probably the cheapest EV in the US, around $25 K.
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Mine was $7500.
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2023 Chevy Bolt EV and EUV get $6,000 price cut, start at $25,600 - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/06/01/2023-chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-get-6000-price-cut-start-at-25600/)
(https://i.imgur.com/fG70GLh.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/WcaNjK8.jpg)
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When power is scarce, utilities often request users to cut back on various items, usually because of a heat wave (coupled of course with inadequate generating capacity and grid stability).
Texas is on its own and can have problems as well.
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The point is that California is insisting on getting wide spread use of EV's as quickly as possible, all the while knowing that their Elec Grid cannot handle the extra load. They have experienced rolling blackouts for years due to Grid Capacity and reliable sources of electricity. Adding thousands or millions of EV's while ignoring the grid is a recipe for disaster.
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That it is, but I still think EV adoption is going to be slower than many imagine, or desire. And faster than others. It's going to be a while before they are even 20% of the cars even in CA.
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yup, all these claims and pronouncements of this EV and that EV by 2035 or 2040 can and probably will be rolled back
autos are like everything else and sold on supply and demand
if the demand isn't there, they won't be sold
I'm not so worried about the grid in Iowa, Nebraska and rural areas
large population centers in Cali and Texico are more likely to have major issues
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I've read all sorts of projections on EV penetration, basically I think no one knows. Anyone can project, and everyone can be wrong.
I make guesses myself, but they are hardly more than guesses, and almost certainly wrong. I do think in time our use of petroleum will drop off as EVs really get going.
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DETROIT (AP) — More than 750 Tesla owners have complained to U.S. safety regulators that cars operating on its partially automated driving systems have suddenly stopped on roadways for no apparent reason.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration revealed the number in a detailed information request letter to Tesla that was posted Friday on the agency’s website.
The 14-page letter dated May 4 asks the automaker for all consumer and field reports it has received about false braking, as well as reports of crashes, injuries, deaths and property damage claims. It also asks whether the company’s “Full Self Driving” and automatic emergency braking systems were active at the time of any incident.
The agency began investigating phantom braking in Tesla’s Models 3 and Y last February after getting 354 complaints. The probe covers an estimated 416,000 vehicles from the 2021 and 2022 model years. In February, the agency said it had no reports of crashes or injuries.
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(https://i.imgur.com/5yBwUWQ.png)
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This Is the 2024 Chevrolet Blazer SS EV, Totally In the Open (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ss-ev-suv-preview-teaser/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=trueAnthem)
(https://i.imgur.com/NT4zZsh.png)
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That looks nice.
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I thought so as well.
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I saw my first live view of the "Mustang" yesterday. I was not impressed at all.
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I agree there as well.
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According to a Car and Driver road test with a brand new 2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum, problems started to pop up just halfway through brake testing. Six times in a row the truck was stopped from 70 mph, and the brakes began to overheat very quickly.
“After the third one a warning light came on to indicate the brakes were overheating, along with significant fade and smoke, to the point that the truck couldn’t keep ABS engaged on the later stops,” the review states.
President Biden didn’t seem to gripe about the brakes when he drove it. Just saying.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/recent-test-exposes-a-ford-f-150-lightning-flaw/ar-AAYbOID?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=7b0d067290454361ae1ef18a6cd2dfa7 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/recent-test-exposes-a-ford-f-150-lightning-flaw/ar-AAYbOID?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=7b0d067290454361ae1ef18a6cd2dfa7)
Because of the added heft of the battery pack, the Ford F-150 Lightning electric truck adds a bunch of weight compared to a standard F-150 for a total weight of 6,855 pounds (3,062 kg), which is a lot of heft to try and slow down. This is extra concerning considering that the truck was tested while completely unloaded, so a truck and trailer combo could likely be even more difficult to stop.
It doesn’t help that the all-electric F-150 Lightning is also considerably quicker than its gasoline counterpart, and that includes the awesome F-150 Raptor. In fact, as Car and Driver reports, the electric pickup will also dust a Mustang Mach-E GT in a sprint to 60, and a real Mustang Mach 1 would also struggle to hold its own against the formidable BEV truck, as well.
Officially, the Lightning can do the 0-60 run in 4.0-seconds, which is 1.8 seconds quicker than the Raptor. It’s not the quickest pickup on the market, however, as the Rivian R1T with a time of 3.3 seconds, while second place goes to the 702 hp Ram 1500 TRX at 3.7 seconds. The 1,000 hp GMC Hummer EV Edition 1, meanwhile, can do it in 3.0-seconds flat. And that’s with off-road tires.
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Brakes shouldn't heat up that quickly, but that is a torture test. One can drive an EV without ever using the brake pedal, or the friction brakes.
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Future EVs: Every Electric Vehicle Coming Soon (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/?utm_source=facebook_dda&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=dda_fb_cd_d_i_g29994375&src=arb_dda&fbclid=IwAR272Z99SIPcYQNHy5YVOQ1aBslnz9ZnfQ0X0P_Kh4nGpJmcwjiHDhVtat8)
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Brakes shouldn't heat up that quickly, but that is a torture test. One can drive an EV without ever using the brake pedal, or the friction brakes.
apparently, Ford had a better idear
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I think the friction brakes on EVs are likely not made to stand up to repeated emergency stops from 70 except perhaps on cars meant to be tracked. That wouldn't happen in normal use. There is a setting on most EVs one can use where you slow down (brake) merely by lifting off the accelerator, that is sufficient for "normal braking" in traffic.
The friction brakes would never be engaged, except in a full panic stop, which drivers don't encounter often, and very rarely even back to back.
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No Dice, ICE: European Union Upholds 2035 Internal Combustion Engine Ban (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/european-union-upholds-2035-internal-combustion-engine-ban/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1FcYgxmw0KsAj9-2Ya9FAGGYGNAR7PG9dMgoFSprrfrn0KYoOTFu5HSGw)
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In-road inductive charging tests demonstrate unlimited EV range (newatlas.com) (https://newatlas.com/automotive/stellantis-road-charging-induction/?fbclid=IwAR0gfstRhC0tNaNYi0D5EWQompNnn75ac1nLe2vbewB2rg7LlBlq6ymml10)
Initial tests are complete, and Stellantis says the power transfer efficiency is "comparable to the typical efficiency of fast charging stations." The magnetic fields involved, says the company, have "no impact on the driver and passengers," and are safe for pedestrians to walk through. Running on DC means the DWTP can use relatively thin, compact cabling, and it can also be directly and efficiently connected to renewable energy sources without the need to convert back and forth from AC.
So it can be done, and it works. But there's no word on whether, or when, the DWTP system will be rolled out on public roadways. Getting a project like this off the ground at commercial scale poses a series of chicken-and-egg problems, and may well end up costing more than it can bring back in revenue. These things will only make sense if they're rolled out on very long stretches of high-traffic highway, if drivers can be accurately billed for their use, and if enough people buy compatible cars to make them worthwhile.
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June 24 (UPI) -- Toyota has recalled more than 2,000 all-electric SUVs over problems that could cause the wheels or axles to fall off.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614)
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June 24 (UPI) -- Toyota has recalled more than 2,000 all-electric SUVs over problems that could cause the wheels or axles to fall off.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614)
reminds me of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Hz6QIbCt0
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He doesn't drink anymore.
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He doesn't drink anymore.
He probably doesnt drink any less either
just kidding I know hes on the wagon
I hope hes successful at that
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ExxonMobil’s calculations predicted that oil demand in 2040 would be equivalent to what the world needed in 2013 or 2014. Woods explained to CNBC that the company was still profitable at that time.
Exxon Mobil CEO: All new passenger cars will be electric by 2040 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/25/exxon-mobil-ceo-all-new-passenger-cars-will-be-electric-by-2040.html)
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Best looking color scheme I've seen on a Tesla. Single pic isn't justice here. Your POV, lighting and time of day makes this really cool looking
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I wonder if all roadways will be electric by 2040. Can't make asphalt without oil.
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The Exxon guy says oil demand will remain high in 2040, just down a bit from today. And of course IF all NEW cars are EVs, many many cars on the road will be ICE.
The replacement rate would be rather slow even so with ~17 million new cars a year and ~300 million cars total in the US.
It'll be faster in Europe. Slower in Africa ...
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New York Will Ban Sale of New Gasoline Cars by 2035 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37624295/new-york-gas-cars-ban-2035/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR1hLKZOlJpEBuEusSOI4UHUzMy9-V7j3pHULB2fSHcnGEsvLlLr8ZbOZRQ)
It's a toothless law that really is a goal.
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2023 Cadillac Lyriq Is the Right Car at the Right Time (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a40436258/2023-cadillac-lyriq-first-drive-review/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR2HmQjHtgShysr-_4-nkw-8ET02FhY8BEUagXgrKq6_bJoCDxe9a5oKins)
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It might be, but can they build many?
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It might be, but can they build many?
I hope not. It's pretty ugly, just like all the other small SUVs out there these days.
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There is a supply constraint on EVs right now, and it's still a small market. I don't know where real demand is after first adopters. Obviously more folks are interested today than 2-3 years ago. It's a fascinating development I think and could either completely change a large industry in two decades, or something else.
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There is a supply constraint on vehicles right now
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Yeah, I'm glad I'm not in the market.
Used car prices look insane to me.
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Cadillac Lyriq first drive: A year early and dollar long at $60K - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/06/28/cadillac-lyriq-review/?fbclid=IwAR1hLKZOlJpEBuEusSOI4UHUzMy9-V7j3pHULB2fSHcnGEsvLlLr8ZbOZRQ)
At just over $60,000, (https://electrek.co/2020/08/12/cadillac-lyriq-electric-car-price/) this is a phenomenal car. GM/Cadillac did have to cut some corners to get one to us this year, but the final product is still one of the most luxurious EVs on the market. Plus all of the 2023s are already sold and I have a feeling the 2024s reservations are going to go quick as well.
I can’t wait to try the AWD version with Super Cruise for a longer drive. Cadillac when!?!?
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2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs. BMW iX: Electric Luxury SUV On-Paper Comparison (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-cadillac-lyriq-vs-bmw-ix-ev-suv-specs-comparison/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1GLfkSXnLLfHwz5_gp_CgWdxp2XSQcdVYbcYHzZGkgGM3nU819v-LqsKU)
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BMW M CEO: There Is No Alternative to Going Electric (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40434438/bmw-m-ceo-there-is-no-alternative-to-going-electric/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2R8MsqiI2sPgh4ZPaEzt_-5GY8DKFV9xFws5D4Tlo_JX1gWtEbnb_TxdQ)
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well, I'm not so sure about that
history states otherwise
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I think by 2040 MOST new cars in the US will be EVs. There will be a few exceptions. The overall fleet will still be mostly ICE.
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Nations Work to Postpone Electric Car Mandates, U.S. Could Be Next (reason.com) (https://reason.com/2022/06/29/some-countries-are-having-second-thoughts-about-electric-car-mandates/?fbclid=IwAR3NmzxlvuyxKr1ITlW8ZaUw6sdsa2LFP5G61L0y-0ILh6ydIjdlvsMFN4g)
It's facile to set some goal like this with no real enablement knowing you'll be long out of office by the day of reckoning.
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GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2d64FjPZmo5WcMSz92Eophsm8VxMqvkl0Eg2TYJWPB55DN9_Fz2n42gfk)
Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years, says John Murphy, the Bank of America analyst behind the annual Car Wars (https://s3-prod.autonews.com/2021-06/BofA Global Research Car Wars.pdf) report that looks at the auto industry and predicts which companies are on a winning path and which are not.
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yup, too many chevy and ford guys just not gonna buy a Tesla or toyota
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Both the EV trucks look pretty awesome to me so far.
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Tested: 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Is a Familiar Brute (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40393084/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-by-the-numbers/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0vWfeiJse1ZymVt807t87tLTFi9rngxijqeWLK4jcVlX2QfghZwqnfYO8)
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GM Has 12 EVs Coming: Here's What They Are (Probably) (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-12-electric-vehicles-coming-cadillac-chevy-gmc-buick/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0x4U0ZxOkMJifmCh2Z4ys_PvINsJaXZy-FdSWFo814DCtTLqMUJViomrk)
Not really very edifying.
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The first car Porsche ever made had an electric engine. The 1898 “Egger-Lohner electric vehicle, C.2 Phaeton model," or “P1,” which required over 1,000 lbs of batteries, could drive almost 50 miles on a charge and reached speeds of 22 mph.
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YouTube publisher Fast Lane Truck did a comparison between an electric and a gas-powered pickup to determine how far each could tow a 3-ton box trailer.
The contestants were an electrified Ford F150 pickup vs. a GMC Denali Ultimate Edition with a 6.2-liter V-8 gas engine.
https://ijr.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_content=2022-07-07&utm_campaign=manualpost (https://ijr.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_content=2022-07-07&utm_campaign=manualpost)
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Ford dealer in Kentucky – Paducah Ford – tested the F-150 Lightning's towing capacity. The dealer actually pulled 17,000 pounds with the truck, which is something you shouldn't do, since it's not rated to tow such a heavy load. However, as expected, the electric truck was certainly up to the task.
Paducah Ford also compares the F-150 Lightning's towing capability and range to that of the F-150 PowerBoost Hybrid. Needless to say, both trucks are able to tow 10,000 pounds with no issue, though the hybrid definitely struggles much more to get up to speed.
The Lightning used about three times the range it was expected to use if it wasn't towing. Over the course of about 16 miles of towing, the Lightning's range estimate was down nearly 50 miles. Interestingly, the PowerBoost hybrid consumed the equivalent of about 52 miles of range to cover the same distance.
Moving up to a whopping 17,000 pounds, the F-150 Lightning fared impressively well, though the dealer didn't take the truck on the highway. Still, the truck's acceleration and driving manners really took him by surprise.
It's important to note that while towing 17,000 pounds at up to 45 mph (no freeway driving), the Lightning only used about 21 miles of estimated range to travel a real-world 15 miles. Obviously, the heavier weight will make a bigger hit on the truck's range, though the lower speed towing proved to be much less taxing on the truck's efficiency.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-f-150-lightning-tows-17-000-pounds-with-ease-range-impresses/ar-AAZsiMi?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8a54c21adc0c4d3f9fb897b216ceb6d8 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-f-150-lightning-tows-17-000-pounds-with-ease-range-impresses/ar-AAZsiMi?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8a54c21adc0c4d3f9fb897b216ceb6d8)
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Tesla owners in Texas have been asked to avoid charging their expensive electric cars (https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/07/star-wars-writer-says-theatre-mode-error-made-his-tesla-undriveable-16953937/) so they don’t crash the electricity grid.
The US state has a notoriously fragile electrical grid which is made worse by extremely hot or cold weather.
Like the UK (https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/15/met-office-issues-level-4-red-alert-putting-uk-on-national-emergency-footing-17005344/), Texas is currently in the grip of a heatwave and, since May, six power plants have already been tripped in the state.
Trying to do its bit to help, Tesla has sent an in-car noitification to owners telling them to avoid charging between 3pm and 8pm if they can help it.
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Elon the hero, once again!
The Lone star grid - the villian, once again
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Lulz. Texas grid has been fine.
Beware politicos pushing agendas.
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about 2 weeks ago in the middle of the day there was a big explosion and the lights went out. I thought oh great a transformer blew which they do from time to time.
I was impressed with the speed CenterPoint came out and replaced it. It was about 90 minutes which is pretty quick. The only problem was about ten minutes after the power was restored it blew again. This time it took about 3 hours probably cause they had to fix what they didnt fix the first time.
Still I give a lot of credit to CenterPoint for their quick response.
My dad was an electrician by trade and during the summer break from college I went out with him as a hired summer helper.
Whenever they would power up a new transformer (in one of several chemical plants around my home town) for the first time it was like getting ready to set off explosives in that everybody had to get some distance away before they made it hot. These things were the size of a phone booth and if they exploded it was jaw dropping.
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Tested: 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Is a Familiar Brute (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40393084/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-by-the-numbers/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0vWfeiJse1ZymVt807t87tLTFi9rngxijqeWLK4jcVlX2QfghZwqnfYO8)
This is amazing.
Growing up, my favorite supercar was the Ferrari F40. And now, 30 years later, we have a normal pickup truck that is quiet, has no emissions, weighs well over twice as much, able to go 0-60 in the same amount of time.
Remarkable.
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I recall that transformers are the most efficient device made by humans. They are quite simple, no moving parts, I guess at some point they can short out and heat up.
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Lulz. Texas grid has been fine.
well, since the incident during the winter
but as we all acknowledge, that was a 500 year abnormality
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Lulz. Texas grid has been fine.
Beware politicos pushing agendas.
Just repeating the message but your statement cuts both ways as far as pushing an agenda.Not everyone has how much to purchase a like vehicle and the time it takes to charge such a thing.of course those MILLIONS of miles of power lines needed will just appear and not burden the already weighed down grid just ask John Kerry - it'd frightening he could hold any position at a federal level
PS i hate the oil men if the politicians weren't such clueless hacks it could be regulated
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Just repeating the message but your statement cuts both ways as far as pushing an agenda.Not everyone has how much to purchase a like vehicle and the time it takes to charge such a thing.of course those MILLIONS of miles of power lines needed will just appear and not burden the already weighed down grid just ask John Kerry - it'd frightening he could hold any position at a federal level
PS i hate the oil men if the politicians weren't such clueless hacks it could be regulated
Well sure. It'll be a challenge EVERYWHERE. Which is basically my point.
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Ever have a Point Beer from Stevens Point Wisconsin? Use to be some decent suds back in the day before one could get their mitts on some Craft or Canadian
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We are not going to switch to EVs wholesale in short order, they sell everyone they make now pretty much quickly. It's going to be gradual. It's not a solution to short term oil prices, even in California.
I've noted before that perhaps in ten to fifteen years most NEW cars will be EVs, OK fine, but even so it takes a while to replace the fleet. A long while.
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Ever have a Point Beer from Stevens Point Wisconsin? Use to be some decent suds back in the day before one could get their mitts on some Craft or Canadian
I have not. I've actually never been to Wisconsin. Minnesota's the closest I've been.
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Minnesota is Baja Manitoba. Need a passport to get in there.
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Ya a Juicy Lucy and a Hamm's
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I've never been to North Dakota, that's my sole missing state.
I may buy an EV and drive there someday.
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Take a Conestoga more with theme can even stop at Deadwood on the way up
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Ya a Juicy Lucy and a Hamm's
Don't recall what beer I had with my Jucy Lucys at Matt's Bar. Whatever it was faded away compared to the deliciousness of that burger.
Heck, why didn't Matt's Bar make it onto that Top 30 burger list? It deserves a spot.
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An EV tow hitch to prevent electrocutions.... for @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15)
(https://i.imgur.com/4gCYItb.png)
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I've never been to North Dakota, that's my sole missing state.
I may buy an EV and drive there someday.
it doesn't suck
well, it sucks horribly in the winter
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Don't recall what beer I had with my Jucy Lucys at Matt's Bar. Whatever it was faded away compared to the deliciousness of that burger.
Heck, why didn't Matt's Bar make it onto that Top 30 burger list? It deserves a spot.
I had a Bud Fat
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So you may recall that my father in law has an electric car, a chevy bolt. Paid around $30,000 for it a few years ago, 260+ mile range.
I rented a house about 100 miles from where he lives. He came down to visit in his electric car. He asked me if the house had a dryer plug so he could charge his car. I told him yes, but he needed a long plug to reach the parking area, about 50 feet. He's a stubborn old bastard, did not bring the extra cord. Sure enough, he needed at least 20-30 more feet of plug to even be close to plugging in his car.
Since his car is part of the battery recall it will only charge to like 80%. it was on 76% when he left our town, and was down to ~120 miles of charge when he got to the city we were staying in (Port O'Connor, TX). We looked around for a 230 V outlet like an RV plug or similar but the only plug was for the dryer and the cord wouldn't reach. His plant was to stay a few hours, charge the car 20-50 miles of extra charge, and head home. He barely made it, with the A/C off on a 100 degree day.
It probably would have been OK if there had been a level 3 charger on the way home, but there is not. We're not there yet with EV infrastructure to take these cars on longer trips.
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apparently wasn't a boy scout
wasn't prepared
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In May 2022, 79% of new passenger vehicles sold in Norway were battery electric powered. With plug-in hybrids accounting for an additional 8 percent, only about 1 in 8 new cars sold in Norway were traditionally configured gasoline cars.
Indeed, Norway leads the world in electric vehicle (EV) adoption with 17 percent of its passenger vehicle fleet currently consisting of electric vehicles, says Maryland Smith’s David A. Kirsch (https://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/directory/david-kirsch). However, the total vehicle fleet in Norway is only a few million vehicles in a distinctly wealthy and small Nordic country and perhaps not representative of the world at large.
But there’s a different way to look at this, he adds. “As sci-fi writer William Gibson famously wrote, the ‘future is already here; it's not very evenly distributed.’ For the future of electrification of mobility, the future is already here, and it's in Norway.” Kirsch, associate professor of management and entrepreneurship at the University of Maryland’s Robert H. Smith School of Business, shared this observation in a Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/darchivist/status/1541243451035078657) after attending the 35th International Electric Vehicle Symposium in Oslo, Norway.
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So you may recall that my father in law has an electric car, a chevy bolt. Paid around $30,000 for it a few years ago, 260+ mile range.
I rented a house about 100 miles from where he lives. He came down to visit in his electric car. He asked me if the house had a dryer plug so he could charge his car. I told him yes, but he needed a long plug to reach the parking area, about 50 feet. He's a stubborn old bastard, did not bring the extra cord. Sure enough, he needed at least 20-30 more feet of plug to even be close to plugging in his car.
Since his car is part of the battery recall it will only charge to like 80%. it was on 76% when he left our town, and was down to ~120 miles of charge when he got to the city we were staying in (Port O'Connor, TX). We looked around for a 230 V outlet like an RV plug or similar but the only plug was for the dryer and the cord wouldn't reach. His plant was to stay a few hours, charge the car 20-50 miles of extra charge, and head home. He barely made it, with the A/C off on a 100 degree day.
It probably would have been OK if there had been a level 3 charger on the way home, but there is not. We're not there yet with EV infrastructure to take these cars on longer trips.
The wife is seriously considering an electric car now. I might get one of these puppies and throw it in the trunk so that, if a similar situation as the one you described happens, she can just whip out the solar panel, wait a couple of hours, and then keep going.
I mean, you'll only maybe get an extra 10 to 20 miles that way, but that could be enough to get you to the nearest charging station.
Portable Solar Panel with Battery and 230V Outlet / 250W / 256Wh / 70000mAh | Portable Solar Generator | Mobisun Pro | Mobisun International (https://www.mobisun.com/mobisun-pro-portable-solar-panel-battery-generator-230v/)
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You'd be better off charging off a 120 v line I suspect (3-5 miles of range per hour). It's very slow, but PVs of that size don't generate much juice either. The extra battery can help of course.
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only 10-20 miles to a charging station???
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yup, put a generator and a gas can in the trunk
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only 10-20 miles to a charging station???
Surprisingly, yeah. Obviously some areas are still fairly sparse (ie, Nevada and Wyoming), but for states like Ohio / Michigan / Indiana, there's probably a charging station within 20 miles of any place in the state.
PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car!
(https://www.plugshare.com/)I'm an engineer in the building construction industry. My company releases a design for a new apartment building at the rate of about 1 or 2 a week. About 90% of the buildings we have released this year have had provisions for charging stations in the parking lots (mostly in the Indiana / Ohio areas). The infrastructure is not there yet, but it's coming at a decent pace.
(https://www.plugshare.com/)
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You'd be better off charging off a 120 v line I suspect (3-5 miles of range per hour). It's very slow, but PVs of that size don't generate much juice either. The extra battery can help of course.
I'm thinking more along the lines of "stuck on the side of the road" situations, but yeah, I get what you are saying. There are larger portable units (2000w) that have 120v outlets, so you could go with one of those and then get a converter plug. The reason to go with the 230v output on the solar array is that the charge flow rate into the car is faster. I haven't done a comprehensive search yet, so ideally I would like a 2000w system with a 230v output. My limited research hasn't found one yet though. It may exist, may not.
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Worried about EV range? A portable charger could help | Popular Science (popsci.com) (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zipcharge-go-portable-ev-battery/)
OK, but $67 per month????
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Just keep one of these in the trunk of your EV at all times. No worries.
(https://i.imgur.com/CjuZat6.png)
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Worried about EV range? A portable charger could help | Popular Science (popsci.com) (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zipcharge-go-portable-ev-battery/)
OK, but $67 per month????
that's a very small price to pay for every automobile owning American to save the planet
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Ultrafast, Portable EV Charging – evunited (https://evunited.com/collections/ultrafast-portable-ev-charging)
The cheapest one is over $16 K ...
I can see AAA trucks having one, but not me.
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could use it for a side hustle
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I don't think the numbers work. You can recharge one EV with another in many cases. You can even run your house on the new trucks for quite a while.
I think that makes the most sense.
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Texans should invest in a new truck
for when the grid goes down again
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Don't need it, I already own two of the things I posted above.
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GM Wants to Change the Narrative Around Cadillac
The group has just revealed this concept car on Instagram.
It's an an imposing luxury electric sedan that the company aims to bring to market by 2024. The design draws on the Cadillac mythos. It has futuristic lines which, especially in the rear area, offers a very innovative look, using two pairs of boomerang LEDs that act as optical groups and at the same time as real styling cues on the side. The rear part is very plunging but, given the length of the vehicle, one could almost see a cross between the 4-seater coupe and the hunting station wagon.
Celestiq's designers have traveled back in time to study pre-war V-16s and the 1957 Eldorado Brougham to draw inspiration. Fewer than 400 Eldorado Broughams were built, for a starting price of $13,074 each. At the time, a Rolls-Royce Silver Wrath was sold for $9,000. Adjusted for inflation, those figures would be roughly 10 times as much today.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cadillac-reaches-back-to-glory-days-to-inspire-new-hand-built-luxury-model/ar-AAZTVPw?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=71c7882fa3de4b588fddb142ae13d1da (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cadillac-reaches-back-to-glory-days-to-inspire-new-hand-built-luxury-model/ar-AAZTVPw?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=71c7882fa3de4b588fddb142ae13d1da)
300,000 a Unit?
The roof also uses smart glass technology , which creates four distinct areas that can be masked by the respective passengers to control the amount of light coming through.
GM still hasn't released technical information on the Cadillac Celestiq. We know that this sedan will be electric but we still don't know how many miles it will be able to travel with a charge, for example.
Production, which will be based on GM's Ultium modular platform for EVs, is expected to begin in late 2023.
The Celestiq will be a very niche and exclusive product, GM says, with each unit hand-crafted and customized for each buyer at dedicated facilities in Warren, Mich. Its base price could be around $300,000 or more. The auto maker intends to build fewer than 500 Celestiqs annually as a way to showcase its technology, boost rarity value and generate buzz for Cadillac.
Earlier this month, GM said it was investing more than $81 million into the GM Technical Center in Warren for the Celestiq. The car will be equipped with the new generation of Ultra Cruise, the company's driver assistance system.
Cadillac aims for an all-electric portfolio by 2030.
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The wife is seriously considering an electric car now. I might get one of these puppies and throw it in the trunk so that, if a similar situation as the one you described happens, she can just whip out the solar panel, wait a couple of hours, and then keep going.
I mean, you'll only maybe get an extra 10 to 20 miles that way, but that could be enough to get you to the nearest charging station.
Portable Solar Panel with Battery and 230V Outlet / 250W / 256Wh / 70000mAh | Portable Solar Generator | Mobisun Pro | Mobisun International (https://www.mobisun.com/mobisun-pro-portable-solar-panel-battery-generator-230v/)
Just don't try to road-trip in an EV to an area that doesn't have supporting infrastructure. Especially when you have 3-4 other vehicles that will do the job nicely.
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You can still charge on 110v regular outlets, it's just very slow, 3-5 miles per hour of range.
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yup, if you're going to an area that doesn't have fast chargers - Wyoming, Montana, North & South Dakota, Nebraska,,,,
you have plenty of time
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The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission has approved the first-ever small modular reactor, from NuScale, a step toward the goal of a next-generation form of clean energy.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nuclear-regulatory-commission-certifies-first-small-modular-reactor/ar-AA10e9xE?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=442b1fa16f2b45708644370a85d70e4f (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nuclear-regulatory-commission-certifies-first-small-modular-reactor/ar-AA10e9xE?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=442b1fa16f2b45708644370a85d70e4f)
"The affirmation of NuScale's design and strong safety case could not have come at a more crucial time — when around the world, people are struggling from the compounding crises of volatile energy prices and climate change-driven extreme weather events,” NuScale president and CEO John Hopkins said in a statement shared on Twitter.
“We are pleased with this continued recognition of our technology's inherent safety design and our potential as a timely, carbon-free energy solution to meet our global community's needs,” Hopkins added.
The commission said Friday that it has directed its staff to approve the design of NuScale’s generation-IV nuclear reactor for certification. The certification will take effect 30 days after NRC staff publish the rule in the Federal Register.
The reactor’s approval is a major milestone for NuScale, which applied in December 2016 to certify its small modular reactor design for use in the U.S.
It is also a major step for the NRC, which has only authorized six reactor design certificates since its establishment in 1974. The NRC previously authorized designs for the advanced boiling water reactor, System 80+, AP600, AP1000, the economic simplified boiling water reactor, and the APR1400.
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EV Charging Infrastructure in America Still Sucks (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36175755/ev-charging-infrastructure-in-america-still-sucks/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1lWEjLTGzlWDKnjL1VhSphig6wMvQUIgR5VgkORt2K94tVlq-XnyHKa9c)
Question, if you leave your car alone while charging, can someone else pull up, disconnect you, and charge their car instead?
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Nikola NKLA Q2 2022 earnings (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/04/nikola-nkla-q2-2022-earnings.html)
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Well, the wife went out and bought a 2022 Chevy Bolt. Installers for the charging station come out on the 22nd, so we will have to use the 120V until then (or go down to the nearest charging station next to our favorite local restaurant).
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Let us know how she likes it and how well it works for your needs.
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Well, the wife went out and bought a 2022 Chevy Bolt. Installers for the charging station come out on the 22nd, so we will have to use the 120V until then (or go down to the nearest charging station next to our favorite local restaurant).
That's the way I'd do it. And hope it takes EXTRA long, to squeeze in an extra margarita or two. :)
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It's a neat little car, but the seats are horrendous. Get the seats fixed ASAP by a car interior shop, it will make the whole experience much better.
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e-mobility-how-many-evs-can-the-power-network-cope-with | 2020 | Siemens Global (https://new.siemens.com/global/en/company/stories/infrastructure/2020/e-mobility-how-many-evs-can-the-power-network-cope-with.html#tblciGiCGFWfWaZHereqUPD_MSop02M9XiI6gycs96F3wzJhcWyCgq0Uol4L-rbnO1NuaAQ&recirc=taboolaexternal)
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2023 Chevrolet Corvette E-Ray Will Be All Ate Up With Vette Firsts (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-chevrolet-corvette-e-ray-awd-hybrid-preview/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1SPl0QmNybfk5mUJ684zWz_q1f2wznPJ25XjKFyiJUTHx6JNdwIPr7emo)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzQNrVqg_8Q
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EV tax credit consequence: Plug-in vehicle lease prices are soaring (greencarreports.com) (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136891_ev-tax-credit-plug-in-vehicle-lease-prices-are-soaring?fbclid=IwAR3G8AYMo_KrFGI3uRMxsRRU9cDsdiVgWecgjcb3c4Dcigd2WF2orkM_v1E)
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(https://i.imgur.com/IZDPRwx.png)
Here's How Fast the Latest EVs Can Charge (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40929408/ev-charging-chart-rates/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR3NblZn06V3jegY8Kgk3lfpV4h0UmXRXVuKg_L_Pm1ASBN0_tQ_cnXuXHk)
We’ve condensed that data to two figures shown in the chart below: the average charging rate for the entire time plugged in and the time it takes to add 100 real-world highway miles, using the results from our 75-mph range test.
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According to research by video producer B Rich on YouTube, the upcoming 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning is going to cost people much more than they might expect. We know Ford is raising the price of its electric pickup truck, but B Rich notes that the potentially higher prices are due in part to the impact of the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022, which includes a new Electric Vehicle (EV) Tax Credit.
We already told you all about the Ford F-150 Lightning's upcoming price hikes. In addition, we shared information from Ford CEO Jim Farley explaining the price increases going forward. Basically, a roughly $6,000 to $8,500 price increase across the lineup was put into place recently for the next wave of orders. Ford says people who placed their orders ahead of the increase will not have to pay extra, though their dealer could add a markup.
B Rich briefly explains the changes that will come as a result of the new US federal EV tax credit. More specifically, it gets into the various caps on the price of the vehicles. Due to the $80,000 cap for trucks, none of the 2023 F-150 Lightning electric trucks with the Extended Range battery will qualify for the credit.
The video goes on to look at the prices of each trim level for 2023 compared to 2022, with the official price hikes and the new EV tax credit in mind. Looking at the cheapest option, the electric truck will cost $7,000 more for 2023, which essentially negates the tax credit. Midrange trims tell a similar story, and if you add too many features or extras, the price can climb to over $80,000, which means no tax credit.
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What Does the Future Hold for EVs? Look at Norway - (cleantechnica.com) (https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/23/what-does-the-future-hold-for-evs-look-at-norway/?fbclid=IwAR3scoL0oKIaLg9wVpQoCn0dGH8XyiJXHDniVKfzSZ-yHGlgH8U9lCHdkGo)
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I Did 1,200 Miles in a Chevy Bolt EUV, but the Charging Network Didn’t Help (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/i-did-1200-miles-in-a-chevy-bolt-euv-but-the-charging-network-didnt-help?utm_campaign=trueanthem_AI&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=thedrive&fbclid=IwAR2LuUDdzkQf0_Wq0TCAdkhfKXEV1YcxWPyg4737gJ5vQ_5-m301kMpMqAQ)
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(https://i.imgur.com/oBGoTSe.jpg)
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That is a gas powered van, but it's towing a battery, not a generator.
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(https://i.imgur.com/6zkueJ6.jpg)
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Another misleading meme, they are not popping up everywhere, they are being built in places where there is no access to electrical power.
And it does not take 3 hours to get 200 miles of range either in most EVs.
Memes are nearly always stupid.
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And yet more stupidity from our Left coast:
Californians told not to charge electric cars days after gas car sales ban (https://www.newsweek.com/californians-told-not-charge-electric-cars-gas-car-sales-ban-1738398)
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Another misleading meme, they are not popping up everywhere, they are being built in places where there is no access to electrical power.
And it does not take 3 hours to get 200 miles of range either in most EVs.
Memes are nearly always stupid.
Ok, but the fact that you have to install petrolium powered generators to power your electric car, kind of ruins the whole "save the plant" purpose of the EV. The point of the meme is to point out the absurdity of the whole EV trend.
Look, I have no problem with EV's, I think they could be the future of personal transportation. But the infrastructure is not yet in place to support them no matter how much some people and politicians want it to be. California was having rolling blackouts long before EV's became a thing and with a slightly smaller population. Now there are over 600,000 EV's in that state representing a fraction of the total number of cars on the highway. And in 13 years, they hope to be almost fully EV, yet they are already having trouble keeping the lights on.
As far as EV's being carbon neutural or emissions free, that is another lie being perpetuated by many. Just the mining of the rare earth minerals to build the batteries, consumes enough petrolium to power a ICE vehichle for a number of years. And then, once the batteries are worn out, they become a environmental hazard to dispose of. Never mind the fact that we have to import those materials from places like China or Chinese controlled territories.
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(https://i.imgur.com/6zkueJ6.jpg)
that's not a 350KW generator
probably 35KW
might use 1 gallon of fuel per hour
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Yup. The actual facts about EVs are important, they have tradeoffs, some pos some neg, like nearly everything in life.
The biased folks will present only one side.
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1). The infrastructure is coming. Slowly, but surely. On the flip side of things, I can’t refuel my ICE vehicle at home.
2). The disposal and recycling of batteries is in its infancy. I would guess that most large li-ion batteries would be recycled. Some can be repurposed.
3). Agreed on the lithium mining industry, but it’s no dirtier than coal mining or some o&g production.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/scientist-develop-technique-of-turning-water-into-hydrogen-fuel-at-room-temperature/vi-AA11jO5P?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=9ce51cf7ed894e62a56fefaa51c3836a&category=foryou (https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/scientist-develop-technique-of-turning-water-into-hydrogen-fuel-at-room-temperature/vi-AA11jO5P?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=9ce51cf7ed894e62a56fefaa51c3836a&category=foryou)
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The problem with turning water into hydrogen and oxygen is thermodynamics. That can't be "solved".
We had a lab once where we did it at room T.
I finally listened to the piece, it's 100% BS.
I found another article which makes more sense:
Scientists Find a Simple Way to Produce Hydrogen From Water at Room Temperature : ScienceAlert (https://www.sciencealert.com/clean-fuel-breakthrough-turns-water-into-hydrogen-at-room-temperature)
They developed a gallium-aluminum nanoparticle thing that splits the water. You need aluminum for this to work and it is consumed in the process, or converted to Al2O3. Then you have to reclaim the aluminumm which takes energy. This is mildly entertaining but I don't see any plausible large scale utility. I could generate lithium hydride and do the same thing.
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I'm hoping for a breakthrough
I'm not hopeful, but hoping none the less
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Using aluminum and water to make clean hydrogen fuel — when and where it’s needed | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2021/using-aluminum-and-water-to-make-clean-hydrogen-fuel-0812#:~:text=Aluminum metal will readily react,directly into contact with water.)
This is a twist on old stuff, no breakthrough. It takes energy to split water, no way around that, ever.
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1). The infrastructure is coming. Slowly, but surely. On the flip side of things, I can’t refuel my ICE vehicle at home.
2). The disposal and recycling of batteries is in its infancy. I would guess that most large li-ion batteries would be recycled. Some can be repurposed.
3). Agreed on the lithium mining industry, but it’s no dirtier than coal mining or some o&g production.
1. I can. However, most people cannot so they take the car to a gas station. The difference is that it takes about 5 mins to fill my truck and leave. It would take hours to fully charge a truck similar to mine (not that I can even buy a 3/4 ton EV truck), so taking it to a charging station is not practical.
2. Yes it is. And that is only part of the problem, with the other being the price. A new battery for you EV with run well north of $10,000. For some, that is a significant outlay for a vehicle that they already own.
3. I won't disagee with you there execpt that we have coal and oil available in this country. We have to import the materials to produce EV batteries. And a majority of those imports are from China which has demonstrated that they are not very sympathetic to American issues.
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The US could produce battery raw materials and is to an extent today.
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Does anyone know what the expected life of a battery is in an EV and its replacement cost
Ive read some unbelievable stories concerning this
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It varies, currently, a lot. They are warranteed for 100 K miles. One Tesla supposedly is running over 500 K miles with same battery. We can't know the lifetime of the current batteries like Ultium, GM may have an idea. The Nissan Leaf had problems in this area, no cooling system.
I figure this is an area for improvement.
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The US could produce battery raw materials and is to an extent today.
Yes we haven't really even begun exploiting our own resources in this area, because to date we haven't wanted to and haven't needed to.
Clearly, times change.
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California advances climate measures, votes to keep nuclear plant open | The Hill (https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/3624281-california-advances-climate-measures-votes-to-keep-nuclear-plant-open/)
:smiley_confused1:
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better start building more nuke plants ASAP
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Ezra Dyer: Tesla's New Reality (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/a40934669/ezra-dyer-teslas-new-reality/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2HJVxHH5yTZGoY7B8nHQDLR-0LCc-Zj8nFD2s6rf4AwWVFuw2JgPeyjyU)
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all these states banning the sales of new gasoline autos before the infrastructure is in place to support EVs will regret it
California even requests not recharging during peak load times
whats up with that
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the new cars sales bans are well into the future
they are not today
infrastructure can be built with time & money
less time if more money
I guessing someday in the future there won't be much time and politicians will throw money at the problem and some lucky folks will profit
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Yeah, it's off in a future where current politicans won't be in office. And this is reversible of course. California does need a lot more infrastructure if this is to happen, but even by 2035, more than half cars and LTs in the state will be ICE powered. And used car sales could be incredible.
I'm about to depart for ATL and CDG.
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will there be rules against going out of state to purchase a new vehicle?
the dealerships in Vegas might see an uptick
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I think probably buying new outside CA would be prohibited, but not buying slightly used.
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I think probably buying new outside CA would be prohibited, but not buying slightly used.
That would be an interesting exercise on legality
Im not sure a state can keep you from buying a gas car in another state
It would probably go to SCOTUS
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well, it would technically be a used car when driving back across the state line from Vegas
registration would be the issue, but working with registering vehicles has been fun forever
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well, it would technically be a used car when driving back across the state line from Vegas
registration would be the issue, but working with registering vehicles has been fun forever
California could refuse to allow registration but again that would end up in court
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so the dealership sells the gasser to a guy named Brandon across the street, Brandon registers the vehicle in Nevada, then sells the "used" car with less than a mile on the odometer to the Cali resident
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I hope all these kids are not on our flight
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any of youse smart fellas know anything about E-Bikes???
Thinking about getting one for trips to the grocery and the golf course.
Golf course is less than 12 miles on mostly flat ground
looks like 28 mph with 40 miles of range is common. 40 miles of range is obviously plenty, 38 mph would be better
https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over (https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over)
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In California they have disallowed the use of Diesel engines that don’t meet emission requirements. This is any vehicle, regardless of the year and if it was legal when you bought it. A whole bunch of construction businesses had to get rid of their perfectly fine trucks because of it.
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:::golf clap:::
good for them
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How many emissions are released in the manufacturing of electric and gas vehicles?
About three-quarters of the life cycle emissions of gas-powered cars are through tailpipe emissions. Around 9% of life cycle emissions come from making the vehicles themselves.
In contrast, while all-electric vehicles produce less than half as much life cycle emissions, about 35% of total greenhouse gas emissions for all-electric vehicles are from either the battery manufacturing process or the manufacturing of the cars. This is due to the higher amounts of greenhouse gases created while mining for lithium needed for the batteries in all-electric vehicles. The remaining 65% of emissions are from electricity production.
While electric vehicles produce less than half as many life cycle emissions as gas-powered cars, the mining required to make the lithium-ion batteries used in electric vehicles produces large amounts of greenhouse gases. About 18% of total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions created by electric vehicles are associated with the battery manufacturing process. About 17% of GHG emissions from electric cars comes from the rest of the manufacturing process. The proportions are significantly different for gas-powered cars. Only 9% of emissions come from the manufacturing process, 17% come from fuel production and distribution and 74% comes from tailpipe emissions during vehicle use.
Learn more about renewable energy with the USAFacts State of the Earth report.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk)
Where does the electricity used to power electric cars come from?
The main source of well-to-wheel emissions for all-electric vehicles comes from electricity production. So, depending on the state, all-electric vehicles can rely on low-emission renewable sources of electricity, or high-emission fossil fuel sources.
These figures vary greatly by state. For example, California relies more on natural gas and solar, so the average all-electric vehicle in California produces 2,261 pounds of emissions every year. In West Virginia, which relies heavily on coal for electricity production, the average all-electric vehicle produces 9,146 pounds of CO2 equivalent.
Electric car emissions are dependent on how states produce power.
Average annual emissions per all-electric vehicle by state (2016)
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How many emissions are released in the manufacturing of electric and gas vehicles?
About three-quarters of the life cycle emissions of gas-powered cars are through tailpipe emissions. Around 9% of life cycle emissions come from making the vehicles themselves.
In contrast, while all-electric vehicles produce less than half as much life cycle emissions, about 35% of total greenhouse gas emissions for all-electric vehicles are from either the battery manufacturing process or the manufacturing of the cars. This is due to the higher amounts of greenhouse gases created while mining for lithium needed for the batteries in all-electric vehicles. The remaining 65% of emissions are from electricity production.
While electric vehicles produce less than half as many life cycle emissions as gas-powered cars, the mining required to make the lithium-ion batteries used in electric vehicles produces large amounts of greenhouse gases. About 18% of total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions created by electric vehicles are associated with the battery manufacturing process. About 17% of GHG emissions from electric cars comes from the rest of the manufacturing process. The proportions are significantly different for gas-powered cars. Only 9% of emissions come from the manufacturing process, 17% come from fuel production and distribution and 74% comes from tailpipe emissions during vehicle use.
Learn more about renewable energy with the USAFacts State of the Earth report.
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk)
Where does the electricity used to power electric cars come from?
The main source of well-to-wheel emissions for all-electric vehicles comes from electricity production. So, depending on the state, all-electric vehicles can rely on low-emission renewable sources of electricity, or high-emission fossil fuel sources.
These figures vary greatly by state. For example, California relies more on natural gas and solar, so the average all-electric vehicle in California produces 2,261 pounds of emissions every year. In West Virginia, which relies heavily on coal for electricity production, the average all-electric vehicle produces 9,146 pounds of CO2 equivalent.
Electric car emissions are dependent on how states produce power.
Average annual emissions per all-electric vehicle by state (2016)
Interesting article. Had to click on the link to read the full article. I think if I am reading that correctly, what they are saying is that, overall, a full electric car is going to produce about a third of the emissions of an ICE car, but that is an average, and it will depend essentially on what area of the country you are charging your car in. In California, it is going to be about 1/5th because California uses much more renewable energy sources, while in West Virginia, it is only going to be about 4/5ths (80%). Am I reading that right?
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I think so
that's what I got out of it
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any of youse smart fellas know anything about E-Bikes???
Thinking about getting one for trips to the grocery and the golf course.
Golf course is less than 12 miles on mostly flat ground
looks like 28 mph with 40 miles of range is common. 40 miles of range is obviously plenty, 38 mph would be better
https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over (https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over)
I think you should get one of these:
(https://i.imgur.com/gkzwGe0.png)
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would be more fun
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General Motors revealed a new electric SUV Thursday that the automaker expects will be the cheapest compact electric SUV on the market when it goes into product in about a year. The Chevrolet Equinox EV will have a starting price around $30,000 which, at any rate, will make it among the cheapest electric vehicles of any sort.
The average electric vehicle available today has a base sticker price of about $47,500, according to Edmunds.com. The $30,000 price for the Equinox EV would be, of course, for the simplest version with no optional features. That price does not include tax credits but GM is not currently eligible for any electric vehicle tax credits, anyway, and it’s uncertain if any GM vehicles will be eligible under new rules, either.
Among 2022 model year mass-market EVs, only the Nissan Leaf, with its base price $28,500, costs less and it also currently qualifies for a $7,500 federal tax credit. There are a few other models in the low- to mid-$30,000 price range, too. Among them are Chevrolet’s own Bolt EV and the SUV-ish Bolt EUV.
Despite having the same name, the Equinox EV shares very little with the gasoline-powered small SUV that is Chevrolet’s second-best-selling model after the Silverado pickup. GM took the same approach with the Chevrolet Silverado EV pickup and the Chevrolet Blazer EV SUV, both of which were unveiled earlier this year.
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Very few EVs in France
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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41106835/2024-jeep-recon-wagoneer-ev-revealed/
2024 Jeep Recon, Mid-Size Wagoneer S Are Brand's First U.S.-Bound EVs
(https://i.imgur.com/wMyXWo3.jpg)
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electric doors?
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Very few EVs in France
Damn. I'd have thought Utopia would 100% EV by now.
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Lots of Diesels
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In UTOPIA?!?!?
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In France yes
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I'm not moving there!
not even gonna visit
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Some very nice things in France
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mmmmmm Bordeaux :)
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New battery for electric cars charges in 3 minutes and lasts 20 years.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11214911/New-battery-electric-cars-charges-3-minutes-lasts-20-years.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11214911/New-battery-electric-cars-charges-3-minutes-lasts-20-years.html)
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a breakthrough!!!
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Now I'm hungry for a BLT.
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EV Batteries Could Stop Power Outages In California and the Rest of the U.S.
Wired’s article explains much about vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology and how California hopes to leverage bidirectional charging to boost its grid. The idea behind V2G isn’t really new: just as electricity can be siphoned from the grid and stored in an EV battery, electricity can also be fed back in to help stabilize it.
https://www.wired.com/story/electric-vehicles-could-rescue-the-us-power-grid/ (https://www.wired.com/story/electric-vehicles-could-rescue-the-us-power-grid/)
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What a deal. Not only will you be suffering through power outages, now they will be able to drain you car battery so that you are stuck at home. :)
Also, gotta love out they classify EV's as "zero emission" vehicles. I guess you could say that if you ignore the emissions required to build and power them. Batteries STORE electricity, they don't produce it. Whoever is producing it is most likely generating some sort of emissions.
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Saw a few charging stations in Paris, not many though
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Electric vehicle (EV) sales set to hit an all-time high in 2022, IEA says (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/electric-vehicle-ev-sales-set-to-hit-an-all-time-high-in-2022-iea-says.html?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3uSmZjbOuwARyhDZ_XO5JfJu4cWoSsSFiIGYag-QqohVbICLDIuymVED0#Echobox=1663933794)
Overall, the rest of the picture is a more challenging one. The IEA noted that 23 areas were “not on track” with a further 30 deemed as needing more effort.
“Areas not on track include improving the energy efficiency of building designs, developing clean and efficient district heating, phasing out coal-fired power generation, eliminating methane flaring, shifting aviation and shipping to cleaner fuels, and making cement, chemical and steel production cleaner,” the IEA said.
The shadow of 2015′s Paris Agreement looms large over the IEA’s report. Described by the United Nations as a “legally binding international treaty on climate change,” the accord aims to “limit global warming to well below 2, preferably to 1.5 degrees Celsius, compared to pre-industrial levels.”
Cutting human-made carbon dioxide emissions to net-zero by 2050 is seen as crucial when it comes to meeting the 1.5 degrees Celsius target.
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At this point, most EV drivers know that cold weather can negatively impact the range of their vehicles. It also causes your EV to have longer charging times. That’s because the chemical reactions that allow the battery to run are slowed down whenever there’s an extreme temperature drop.
Exactly how much range can you expect to lose during the winter months? Let’s go over when range loss happens and how you can avoid it.
What’s the optimal battery temperature for EVs?
The best EV battery temperature varies depending on the make and model of your vehicle. However, a temperature between 50° to 90° Fahrenheit is considered average. According to Geotab, most EVs can achieve peak performance when the battery is 70°F.
What cold temperatures affect EV range?
Your EV’s range will generally start to depreciate once exterior temperatures have dipped below 40°F. According to Axios, some vehicles maintain most of their estimated range despite drastic temperature drops. For example, the Hyundai Kona EV and Audi e-tron operate at 93% efficiency in temperatures between 20-30°F.
However, the Chevy Volt might lose as much as 69% of its range in cold weather. A study found by Car and Driver reported that the average EV loses at least 20% of its range in freezing temperatures. InsideHook even mentioned one study from Consumer Reports that cited a 50% loss in efficiency in below-freezing conditions.
If your EV’s heater is on full blast, you could lose 41% of your estimated driving range. According to SolarReviews, you should also be mindful of the last 20% of your EV’s battery. Without that power, your EV might have difficulty charging itself at all if the battery is already too cold.
How to mitigate range loss during the winter
In addition to always keeping the battery at 20%, you should try to park your EV in a garage during winter. While it’s not the warmest area of your home, it will at least give your vehicle some protection from exterior temperatures. Your garage is also an excellent place to recharge the EV’s battery overnight, even if you only have a 120-volt outlet.
Drive Electric Vermont also recommends using heated seats and steering wheels instead of trying to heat the whole cabin. These features can warm your body just as quickly in cold weather and don’t put as much strain on your EV’s power supply.
If you need some extra warmth, keep a few extra blankets in your vehicle. In winter, it’s always a good idea to keep additional layers of clothing in your car for emergencies anyway.
Alternatively, you can preheat your vehicle while it’s still plugged in before you leave your home. Once you’re behind the wheel, switch your EV into ECO mode to extend your battery life. Your EV might not be as fast in this drive mode, but it’s always better to drive cautiously in winter. In fact, you can improve your EV’s mileage by up to 20% if you drive 10 mph slower.
Like with any ICE car, you can maximize your vehicle’s mileage by keeping the tires at the right pressure. This is even more important in freezing temperatures when the air is denser. Always refer to your owner’s manual or the inside of your EV’s doorjamb for each tire’s recommended pressure.
If possible, we also recommend buying an EV with at least 300 miles of range. The Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium is probably the most affordable option, currently starting at $48,775. A Long Range version of the Tesla Model 3 (historically the automaker’s cheapest car) is also planned for release as a 2023 model.
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Ford has decided to increase the prices of the F-150 Lightning, the electric version of its best-selling F-150 pickup.
The base price of the F-150 Lightning will increase by $5,000 for 2023 model year vehicles. Consumers should therefore pay from roughly $52,000 to $97,000 depending on the version. For 2022 model year vehicles, base prices ranged from $40,000 to $92,000. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ford-delivers-very-bad-news-to-ev-buyers/ar-AA12FDXG?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6f4e02596150494394c45332311c87a5 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ford-delivers-very-bad-news-to-ev-buyers/ar-AA12FDXG?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6f4e02596150494394c45332311c87a5)
The base price of the F-150 Lightning Pro, the model intended for professional customers - businesses, government - will increase by almost 11% to $51,974. The increase is even more spectacular if we refer to the very first vehicles in May 2021. These cost $39,974.
Price increases do not affect customers who have already placed their order.
This is the second time in just over a month that Ford has raised prices for the F-150 Lightning. On August 9, the manufacturer had increased the prices of the truck/pickup between $6,000 and $8,500 depending on the model.
The base price of the F-150 Lightning model year 2023 thus climbed between $47,000 and $97,000, compared to approximately $40,000 to $92,000 for model year 2022 vehicles. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.
As in August, Ford attributed further price hike to costs related to continued disruptions affecting supply chain
The supply chain disruptions have been exacerbated by the covid-19 pandemic and the microchip shortage. These two problems together have forced automakers to temporarily suspend production of some, often very popular, models. They also reduced the inventory of new vehicles.
The cost of battery development has more than doubled since the coronavirus pandemic, research firm AlixPartners has calculated. This increase in costs is due to the disruptions caused to supply chains by the pandemic and the soaring prices of raw materials following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.
The costs of the raw materials (cobalt, nickel, lithium) necessary in the development of an electric vehicle have on average increased by almost 144% in two years to $8,255 as of last May, according to a report published in June by AlixPartners. As of March 2020, these costs amounted to $3,381. The cost of developing the electric vehicle has increased by about $2,000 over the past two years, the research firm added.
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The base price of the F-150 Lightning will increase by $5,000 for 2023 model year vehicles. Consumers should therefore pay from roughly $52,000 to $97,000 depending on the version. For 2022 model year vehicles, base prices ranged from $40,000 to $92,000. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.
Hmm. Didn't Congress just pass the so called Inflation Reduction act that gave a $7,500 tax incentive to buy EV's and then Ford raises their price? What a coincidence.
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Biden administration weighs whether to shrink offshore drilling lease sales | The Hill (https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3676276-biden-administration-weighs-whether-to-shrink-offshore-drilling-lease-sales/)
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poor message for oil prices
weigh it all you'd like
why blabber about it to the press?
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The Democrats are in a bind, they are against fossil fuels, OK fine, but they are against OPEC+ reducing production of fossil fuels. That should be good news for them, it makes EVs more attractive. Yay!
But some of them understand we have an election in a month.
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How Much Does It Cost To Replace the Battery in a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV)?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-the-battery-in-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-phev/ar-AA12EXS7?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5f94b41cc46346fb80ae19dfafcf8f4f (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-the-battery-in-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-phev/ar-AA12EXS7?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5f94b41cc46346fb80ae19dfafcf8f4f)
The average replacement battery for any electric vehicle costs $137/kWh. That said, the price of a very small battery could be more per kWh. This price estimate does not include the labor required to actually swap out your old battery.
For some fully electric vehicles, the labor to swap out a battery costs less than $1,000. But service costs alone for replacing a Tesla’s battery can add up to $2,500.
The batteries in plug-in hybrid vehicles will wear out over time. But this process usually takes years, so swapping out your battery will not be a regular maintenance event. The industry standard battery warranty is currently eight years or 100,000 miles.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
You stole my thunder
was just getting ready to post this
another bug that has to be solved lol
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hurricanes can cause serious damage
I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
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hurricanes can cause serious damage
I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
yep but they dont explode
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they do if the gas tank gets too hot
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they do if the gas tank gets too hot
which only happens when the whole car is on fire
silly rabbit
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What It Was Like Living With Hydrogen for a Year: Toyota Mirai FCEV Yearlong Review Verdict (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-toyota-mirai-fcev-yearlong-test-review-verdict/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR16N5ku_IahI-PzUtwuud4BSXj5pchaTQPr_-Y82ZOTmHP0ogBDn5kCMnQ)
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hurricanes can cause serious damage
I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
A submerged car, whether an EV or gasser, is pretty much toast either way. However, a submerged gasser in your garage won't burn your house down.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
How often did this occur? They provided one example and seemed to imply it was widely spread. Fires in EVs have been a problem even without submergence. Was the car on fire submerged or did it just burn "normally"?
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from what I saw on the national news, electric cars were burning, not exploding
but, if someone has footage of an exploding car, then that's the deal
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from what I saw on the national news, electric cars were burning, not exploding
but, if someone has footage of an exploding car, then that's the deal
Here's a picture of an exploding car.
It's not electric and no idea if it's in Florida.
(https://i.imgur.com/HD4k469.png)
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IMHO that's a terrible article.
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Hyundai Ioniq 6 vs. Tesla Model 3: An EV Sedan Showdown Preview (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-hyundai-ioniq-6-vs-tesla-model-3-ev-sedan-compare/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2jwYQttGFDGdufwSyTwDhdfrQwicvPPAjGM99bHbd8W6HhWoqjyd8b0Oo)
EVs seem to be improving pretty quickly (which is not a shock, heh). I wonder if we're nearing the top of he current S curve.
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Here's a picture of an exploding car.
It's not electric and no idea if it's in Florida.
(https://i.imgur.com/HD4k469.png)
looks like a gasser
I'm guessing gasoline explodes bigger and better and more often than lithium
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Battery fires are not explosions, but they are tough to extinguish with water.
This notion they burn after being submerged is not documented that I can see, maybe some do, some burn anyway. If you don't want an EV because they might get submerged, well, OJK I guess, they have other issues that would concern me more.
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Battery fires are not explosions, but they are tough to extinguish with water.
that's not a clickbait headline!
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LONDON (AP) — The death toll in an explosion at a gas station in a small village in northwest Ireland has risen to nine, police said Saturday, as emergency workers combed piles of rubble for more victims.
The explosion leveled the gas station building, which holds the main shop and post office for the village, and damaged an adjacent residential building.
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RIP those lost hope it was nothing nefarius
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the Lucid Air electric sports sedan has already generated a great deal of positive buzz, including earning the illustrious 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year Award. While Tesla still dominates the EV segment, the Lucid Air has a crucial advantage. It’s better than all Tesla models in one key area: driving range.
Lucid Air has a higher driving range than all Tesla models
EVs have many positive attributes, but a significant concern for many of them is their low driving range compared to gas-powered vehicles. This leads to range anxiety — or the fear of running out of battery power before making it back home or reaching a charging station.
However, with the Lucid Air electric sports sedan, this range anxiety is alleviated. It has an estimated driving range of up to 520 miles. This is a higher driving range than all Tesla models — and the highest range for a production electric car:
Maximum driving range estimates:
Lucid Air: 520 miles
Tesla Model S: 405 miles
Tesla Model 3: 358 miles
Tesla Model Y: 330 miles
As you can see, no Tesla model comes close to matching the 520 miles of driving range for the Lucid Air. The Tesla model with the highest driving range is the Model S sports sedan, with an estimated range of up to 405 miles.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/lucid-air-has-1-huge-advantage-over-all-tesla-models/ar-AA13GTrt?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f59d200bf09a44519d3977d24e6880b5 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/lucid-air-has-1-huge-advantage-over-all-tesla-models/ar-AA13GTrt?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f59d200bf09a44519d3977d24e6880b5)
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IMHO that's a terrible article.
EV fires are happening here with regularity now. It's on the local news every night.
It's the ones that sat in salt water when the surge happened.
Ian exposed potential fire risk posed by electric vehicles (winknews.com)
(https://www.winknews.com/2022/11/02/ian-exposed-potential-fire-risk-posed-by-electric-vehicles/)
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That is a much better article.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/does-bmw-actually-hold-the-secrets-to-the-next-step-in-ev-battery-tech/ar-AA13Qj4K?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3e20656dddc843d1869702bad4651b70 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/does-bmw-actually-hold-the-secrets-to-the-next-step-in-ev-battery-tech/ar-AA13Qj4K?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3e20656dddc843d1869702bad4651b70)
Future BMW EVs with these new Gen6 battery packs could entice many consumers. These models could offer the benefits of:
Longer driving range
Shorter charging times
Lighter overall weight
Lower price
All four of these qualities are certainly enticing for any vehicle, especially EVs.
Learn more about the new BMW EV battery tech in the video below:
https://youtu.be/nyjU0ePc7IQ
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General Motors says it expects its portfolio of electric vehicles to turn a profit in North America by 2025 as it boosts battery and assembly plant capacity to build over 1 million EVs per year.
CEO Mary Barra used the pledge to kick off the company’s investor day event Thursday in New York.
The profit figure includes vehicle sales revenue, benefits from emissions tax credits, and revenue from software and parts sales, she said.
Barra said the company’s EV portfolio appeals to a broader range of customers than the competition, in a lineup that includes a small SUV for around $30,000, plus a luxury SUV, pickup trucks, and Hummer SUVs in the next two years.
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Father in law had his battery replaced in his Bolt today as part of the recall.
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money loser for GM
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It’s not so simple to make faster electric vehicle chargers, because the increased electricity means excess heat, too.
A NASA experiment meant to cool electronics aboard spacecraft could also find its way into EV chargers.
Theoretically, a charging station with this technology could juice up an EV battery in just five minutes.
Today, NASA cools onboard electronics with a single-phase system, a sub-cooled element that stays in a single liquid “phase.” However, the FBCE—designed by Issam Mudawar, a professor of mechanical engineering, and his lab at Purdue University—is a two-phase system. As its name suggests, the system uses two phases, both liquid and vapor, to more efficiently transfer heat.
The experiment’s Flow Boiling Module contains heat-generating devices along a flow channel filled with coolant. As things heat up, water boils near the channel’s wall, forms bubbles, and then “depart the walls at high frequency,” according to NASA. This heated vapor is then replaced by coolant pulled from the interior of the flow channel. The vapor eventually condenses and returns to its liquid form.
After being delivered to the ISS in 2021, the FBCE team conducted tests to see if this cooling technique worked in microgravity, a feature that’s unnecessary for EVs (unless NASA wants to recharge Elon Musk’s space Tesla). While the data gathered from FBCE will improve spacecraft cooling systems on long-duration missions (where more power and improved thermal management are needed), the impact of the underlying technology could be felt much closer to home.
Many modern EV fast-charging stations are rated at 350 amperes due to temperature restrictions. NASA estimates that Purdue’s cooling system could increase that to a whopping 2,400 amperes. To put that into perspective, a charging station supplying a steady flow of electricity at 1,400 amperes alone could fully charge an EV in just five minutes.
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I drove all three electric pickup trucks on sale in the US.
The Rivian R1T, Ford F-150 Lightning, and GMC Hummer EV are three very different takes on the electric truck.
They all offer more than 300 miles of range and lots of interesting features.
To some, they might all seem about the same. They all have a bed and some electric motors, and none come particularly cheap.
But the Ford F-150 Lightning, GMC Hummer EV, and Rivian R1T couldn't be more different. I drove all three and learned all about their highs, lows, and special features.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/i-ve-driven-all-3-electric-pickup-trucks-on-the-market-here-s-why-i-d-buy-the-rivian-r1t-over-the-f-150-lightning-or-hummer-ev/ar-AA14sg4f?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e966f63b8e1548f5937c43b3bf48092c (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/i-ve-driven-all-3-electric-pickup-trucks-on-the-market-here-s-why-i-d-buy-the-rivian-r1t-over-the-f-150-lightning-or-hummer-ev/ar-AA14sg4f?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e966f63b8e1548f5937c43b3bf48092c)
For me — a weekend adventurer who appreciates modern style and a smaller form factor — the Rivian's friendlier proportions and outdoors-focused features take the cake.
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(https://i.imgur.com/60ubYki.png)
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In these are the true awards of manly sport
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(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/316831571_684028829757962_4775215472550294370_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=EysMey-aWlUAX9_KdxT&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDfjCRIfuK-dq79xsjSBgIu9SoOtYg4E5k0_NPD_Ayaxw&oe=638E02BB)
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The Lightyear 0, a solar-powered EV that can go months between battery charges, has finally entered production.
The Dutch startup recently announced that it had begun building its boundary-pushing debut vehicle, according to Jalopnik. The 0 isn’t the only solar electric car that’s been in the works, but it is the first to go into production.
As automakers rush to release EVs, it can be hard to design one that stands out. That shouldn’t be a problem for the 0, though. The sedan may look like any other premium EV at a glance, but the top of the car, from its hood to its tail lid, is lined with solar panels that help keep its 60-kWh battery pack charged.
The solar cells will have a big impact on how much time you spend charging the vehicle. Lightyear claims the panels can provide up to 44 miles a day. That may not sound like that much, but the brand says that in the Netherlands, drivers who cover roughly that distance per day could easily go two months between charges in the summer. And if you live somewhere even sunnier, like Portugal, the time between charges could be as long as seven months, according to Jalopnik. Range shouldn’t be that much of an issue during the darker months of the year, either. The 0 can travel 388 miles between charges, based on Europe’s WLTP testing cycle.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-world-s-first-solar-electric-car-just-went-into-production/ar-AA14PTQk?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=1e8065202bae41a480ca25a64820f5ce (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-world-s-first-solar-electric-car-just-went-into-production/ar-AA14PTQk?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=1e8065202bae41a480ca25a64820f5ce)
Unsurprisingly, an EV as unique as the 0 doesn’t come cheap. Lightyear’s sedan starts at €250,000 (about $262,000). If a quarter-million seems a bit steep to you, you’re in luck. The brand plans to introduce a more accessible solar electric car called the 2 by the middle of the decade.
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA14Q029.img?w=534&h=300&m=6)
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Worth mentioning in the solar thread…
Here is some of my recent handiwork…
3 panel solar powered submersible pump
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2 panel system. This one is my top seller. Makes about 5,000 gallons per day to water cattle.
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Longhorn cattle?
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None around these parts. Not sure if they are more prevalent anywhere else in the state, but I think the LH cow is mostly myth than reality. They look cool, but I think they are harder to ranch than other cattle. But I can't speak for all of Tx, just in my little neck of the woods.
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there are a few scattered around South Dakota and Nebraska
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Aren’t coal-powered EVs more harmful than gas-powered vehicles?
Strangely, the answer is no. Even if all the electricity produced for electric cars came from coal-burning processes, electric vehicles are less wasteful than ICE vehicles.
MotorTrend provides an in-depth study to show that only 16 to 25 percent of the energy from burning gasoline goes to the wheels. This is a massive loss due to the inefficiencies of burning gasoline.
On the other hand, electric cars send between 87 and 91 percent of the energy from the battery to the wheels. Some of that energy is recaptured through regenerative braking. This recapturing of energy reduces the amount of loss for EVs.
If we replaced all gasoline burning with coal burning, the energy usage reduction would reach 31 percent. Currently, Americans use nearly 9 million barrels of oil every day but switching to EVs charged only with electricity produced through coal-burning processes only requires the equivalent of 6 million barrels of oil. This is a huge difference.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/are-we-being-lied-to-about-electric-cars/ar-AA15dEtX?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=625305b42da24baabc904afdee2d6f0a (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/are-we-being-lied-to-about-electric-cars/ar-AA15dEtX?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=625305b42da24baabc904afdee2d6f0a)
The greatest change we need is in the power grid. Instead of blaming EVs for changing the name of the game, the power grid should be upgraded to be more environmentally friendly. Currently, the makeup of the grid is:
38 percent natural gas
22 percent coal
20 percent renewables
19 percent nuclear
1 percent other
Using these numbers, we see that 39 percent (adding renewables and nuclear together) of the grid is entirely emissions-free. We also see that only 22 percent of the entire grid is coal, which doesn’t support the argument to blame electric cars for coal burning in the grid.
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Did I just miss it?
Because I didn't see them address the inefficiencies of electrical generation in the coal-burning power plant, nor the inefficiencies in electrical transmission due to line losses, which are both required just to get the electricity to the EV battery in the first place.
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they didn't address the trains and ships that haul coal, the supertankers that haul oil or the mining and shipping of lithium either
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Did I just miss it?
Because I didn't see them address the inefficiencies of electrical generation in the coal-burning power plant, nor the inefficiencies in electrical transmission due to line losses, which are both required just to get the electricity to the EV battery in the first place.
It's really about how much CO2 is generated per mile. Transmission losses were taken into account and are surprisingly small (to me anyway). If you burn coal to generate electricity, I think the thermal efficiency is near 40%, but that comes out when you compute how much CO2 is generated per kWhr.
I once did a back of the envelop calculation on this and got about the same answer, a question was asked whether EVs really generate less CO2. There also is a factor of how much CO2 is generated in making an EV in the first place. It's pretty large, but comes out after a year or so of driving.
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they didn't address the trains and ships that haul coal, the supertankers that haul oil or the mining and shipping of lithium either
Sure, and they should. For a truly holistic analysis, you'd have to take all of that into account.
But an IC engine burns gasoline to generate electricity. That's the inefficiency they're addressing.
Then they just completely ignore the fact that the EV battery can't just charge itself, and that the coal-burning plant has its own inefficiencies. They're not even close to comparing apples-to-apples here.
The closest you can get to direct apples-to-apples attempting the simplicity of their analysis, is to compare efficiency of the gas ICE, to the efficiency of coal-burning electrical power generation, PLUS electrical line losses, PLUS losses from the battery to the wheels of the EV.
I've seen the analyses in detail before and the EV still tends to come out ahead, but it's not the same picture as the one they're painting.
It's really about how much CO2 is generated per mile. Transmission losses were taken into account and are surprisingly small (to me anyway). If you burn coal to generate electricity, I think the thermal efficiency is near 40%, but that comes out when you compute how much CO2 is generated per kWhr.
I once did a back of the envelop calculation on this and got about the same answer, a question was asked whether EVs really generate less CO2. There also is a factor of how much CO2 is generated in making an EV in the first place. It's pretty large, but comes out after a year or so of driving.
Line losses are 4-6%. I'm not sure I'd call that "small" when added to the thermal inefficiency of the coal burning plant, and then the losses from the EV battery to the wheels of the EV. There's really not as much difference as the EV industry attempts to portray.
But still, there is a difference.
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It's really just about CO2 per mile.
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It's really just about CO2 per mile.
That's not what the article FF posted is addressing.
It is addressing energy usage, not environmental impact.
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Are electric cars worse for the environment than gasoline-powered cars?
That is the question asked at the beginning of the article.
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YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels | Yale School of the Environment (https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional)
This describes the Yale study in more detail.
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Pricing indirect emissions accelerates low—carbon transition of US light vehicle sector | Nature Communications (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27247-y)
And this is the study.
Large–scale electric vehicle adoption can greatly reduce emissions from vehicle tailpipes. However, analysts have cautioned that it can come with increased indirect emissions from electricity and battery production that are not commonly regulated by transport policies. We combine integrated energy modeling and life cycle assessment to compare optimal policy scenarios that price emissions at the tailpipe only, versus both tailpipe and indirect emissions. Surprisingly, scenarios that also price indirect emissions exhibit higher, rather than reduced, sales of electric vehicles, while yielding lower cumulative tailpipe and indirect emissions. Expected technological change ensures that emissions from electricity and battery production are more than offset by reduced emissions of gasoline production. Given continued decarbonization of electricity supply, results show that a large–scale adoption of electric vehicles is able to reduce CO2 emissions through more channels than previously expected. Further, carbon pricing of stationary sources will also favor electric vehicles.
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Are electric cars worse for the environment than gasoline-powered cars?
That is the question asked at the beginning of the article.
They only addressed the energy efficiency/usage question and did not address emissions at all. Not one mention of CO2 per mile.
But you already know that, because you read the same thing I did. Right?
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They dumb those articles way down because the average person can't understand WTF they are getting at anyways. It's basically a sound-bite article.
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There is pretty common criticism of EVs that they are worse for the environment than ICE cars, meaning they generate more CO2 over their lifetimes (or per mile). This is meant to rebut that. Whether it does or not is a separate issue. We all know these "studies" can be contrived by rebalancing a few coefficients. My GUESS is the study is decent from what I can tell, and having done a BOE study myself using made up figures.
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Toyota’s First-Ever All-Electric Pickup Truck Is... Not Quite What You'd Expect (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-hilux-revo-bev-concept-first-look/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3eMWbr5vsSSEIYaC7d_XVYbv61NAtTKZoGlJ2Izc3SPUSCXcXTIBvHX9U)
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not for me
but, I hope they sell a billion of them in china
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At least it looks like a pickup truck.
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If you happen across a 1970 F150 parked next to a new one, it's pretty amazing.
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yup, little wonder they've gone up in price
odd that pickup trucks have grown to a much larger size
even the small trucks are larger than the 150s and 1500s of the past
and yet sedans have shrunk
can't even buy a LARGE sedan these daze
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I think a small work truck like that Toyota could sell in the US to handymen, even with range of say 150 miles. And I agree the "small trucks" today are rather large. My neighbor had an old S-10 that was pretty useful to me at times.
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Extended cabs and crew cab were quite rare 3 decades ago. For us, the F150 crew cab is our family vehicle, so it must have a very large cab, and the kinds of comforts you'd find in a sedan.
Of course if anybody still made a 3/4 ton SUV with commiserate towing capability, THAT is what I'd have. I find SUVs to be superior tow vehicles to pickup trucks in almost every scenario.
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Consumer Reports recently extrapolated from its vast archive of owner surveys the reliability data pertaining to electric cars. It found that as a whole, EVs were less reliable than traditional gasoline and hybrid cars. The Kia EV6 ran away with top honors among battery electrics with a total score of 84. However, CR was not ready to recommend it because it was so new on the market and reliability issues can take time to surface. Also, we would be remiss not to point out that the EV6's platform twin, the Hyundai Ioniq 5, ranked fourth among EVs at 41 points, less than half the score of the Kia.
Between the siblings are the Tesla Model 3 with 58 points, and the Nissan Leaf with 53. These numbers land mid-pack among reliability ratings. Internal-combustion cars like the Toyota Corolla Hybrid, Lexus GX, Mazda Miata and Lincoln Corsair have scores in the 80s and 90s.
We've long heard the argument that EVs should, hypothetically, be more reliable than gasoline cars as they have fewer moving parts. Think of all the valves and gears in a typical ICE drivetrain. However, CR says, "EVs reported problems associated with battery packs, charging, electric drive motors, and unique heating and cooling systems that are required on vehicles that lack a conventional engine." It would be be interesting to know the percentage of issues associated with hardware failures versus the percentage of issues stemming from software bugs, but CR doesn't break out those numbers.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/evs-more-issue-prone-than-gasoline-and-hybrid-cars-consumer-reports-says/ar-AA15kwqH?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=e7161253bf8d4aa39c8e7bffc614ea7d (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/evs-more-issue-prone-than-gasoline-and-hybrid-cars-consumer-reports-says/ar-AA15kwqH?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=e7161253bf8d4aa39c8e7bffc614ea7d)
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I'll wait another decade or two
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Despite forecasts that EVs will represent most (or all in some places) new car sales by 2035, even if that happens, it would be around 2050 before half the cars on the road are EVs.
And I think some car makers will still offer ICE vehicles of certain types.
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Despite forecasts that EVs will represent most (or all in some places) new car sales by 2035, even if that happens, it would be around 2050 before half the cars on the road are EVs.
And I think some car makers will still offer ICE vehicles of certain types.
We'd have to make dramatic improvements in battery storage technology in order NOT to still be forced to offer some ICE options. The kinds of leaps in technology that have never been made in that sector, to date. The laws of physics are a challenging taskmaster.
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Major issues, today, some of which won't be readily solvable:
1. Range, but getting better.
2. Cost
3. Recharging time, also getting better
4. Towing range, not sure how this gets better
5. Cold weather performance, same
6. Weight
7. Battery replacement costs
8. Battery supply issues (raw materials etc.)
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GE’s Avio To Test Hydrogen Hybrid-Electric Engine | Aviation Week Network (https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/advanced-air-mobility/ges-avio-test-hydrogen-hybrid-electric-engine?fbclid=IwAR3JYWl8Gov738F4QnEuzgJ5DfT9MN6YmaG6Bofr4DSNBSW4zpQUANxS_c0)
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Tesla Inc. delivered fewer vehicles than analysts expected last quarter, missing estimates despite taking the unusual step of offering hefty incentives in its two biggest markets.
The company handed over 405,278 vehicles to customers in the last three months, short of the 420,760 average estimate compiled by Bloomberg. While the total was a quarterly record for Tesla, the company opened two new assembly plants last year and still came up short of its goal to expand deliveries by 50%.
After Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk predicted an “epic” end to the year, Tesla proceeded to cut vehicle prices and production in China, then offered $7,500 discounts in the US. Concerns about rising interest rates, inflation and other economic headwinds — plus alarm over Musk’s antics on Twitter, which he now owns — sent Tesla shares plunging 37% in December and 65% last year.
“We believe that Tesla is facing a significant demand problem,” Toni Sacconaghi, a Bernstein analyst with the equivalent of a sell rating on the stock, wrote in a report Monday. “We believe Tesla will need to either reduce its growth targets (and run its factories below capacity) or sustain and potentially increase recent price cuts globally, pressuring margins.”
Tesla increased deliveries by 40% to 1.31 million last year, shy of the 50% average annual growth rate the company has said it expects to achieve over multiple years. Production expanded 47% to 1.37 million.
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Major issues, today, some of which won't be readily solvable:
1. Range, but getting better.
2. Cost
3. Recharging time, also getting better
4. Towing range, not sure how this gets better
5. Cold weather performance, same
6. Weight
7. Battery replacement costs
8. Battery supply issues (raw materials etc.)
On #3:
I suggested swapping out batteries as being a possible alternative to charging them.
I randomly just saw a video of Neil Degrasse-Tyson suggesting the same thing on Joe Rogan's podcast. No, he's not the authority on such things, but it's neat that he agrees with me.
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(https://i.imgur.com/ycAYA8m.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZjIvdvx.jpg)
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Think of an oil change setup, with shops stocking the most common batteries. Machines swapping them out, so weight isn't an issue.
It's feasible, unless you let your distaste for the messenger of the idea cloud your judgement.
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I'm an electrical engineer. I'm familiar with the concept, and the challenges. I don't care at all where the idea is coming from, I have no "distaste" to cloud my judgment here.
How many stops does an average urban gas station get in a day? 200? Imagine storing, installing, and re-stocking, 200 of those battery banks every day. This is not a simple problem.
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let the robots do it
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let the robots do it
Sure. Who's going to pay for that massive change to infrastructure?
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the green energy dems will steal the money from electrical engineers like you!
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I'm an electrical engineer. I'm familiar with the concept, and the challenges. I don't care at all where the idea is coming from, I have no "distaste" to cloud my judgment here.
How many stops does an average urban gas station get in a day? 200? Imagine storing, installing, and re-stocking, 200 of those battery banks every day. This is not a simple problem.
I'm thinking the biggest hurdle would be a shop's power supply. I'm picturing racks of batteries filling opposing walls, all charging, as they've been swapped out from earlier customers' cars. If they can make a jukebox pick the correct record and maneuver it to play, they can do the same with heavy-ass car batteries.
But yeah, that power supply is going to be substantial.
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Sure. Who's going to pay for that massive change to infrastructure?
The billion-dollar corporations that run everything and do whatever they have to do in order to produce perpetual, quarterly growth.
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let the robots do it
Why do I get the suspicion that you're picturing me picturing Optimus Prime in a reconfigured Jiffy-Lube switching out the battery beneath an '88 Chevy Nova?
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now, that's just a very disturbing picture
would have never popped into my head w/o you
had to google "Optimus Prime"
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the 88 chevy nova probably the most disturbing
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But yeah, that power supply is going to be substantial.
so, the entire parking lot and surrounding area is covered with solar panels
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Well probably, yes. The parking lot would BE solar panels. Or the lane where people wait in line could be charging their batteries.....some may just drive on through without a swap and/or that would help keep the swapped-out batteries from needing so much time to charge back up.
.
The cool part about all of this is that it would actually work with ideas no one's even thought up yet.
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not needed for daily commutes
only needed for long haul travel - over the 300 miles or so common range
so, interstate highways and turnpikes
Buc-ee's truckstops
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My step son was here and went to Cincy for New Years to see friends. He rented a Tesla Type X. He really liked it, he recharged 3 times going up. He set the speed at 85 which is the max for the autodrive function which he really liked.
I rode in it a couple times around town, my wife said she liked it. Range is less for freeway driving versus around town.
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85 max?
is there an override that can be used to get to triple digits?
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You can drive manually over 85, he said.
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whew! what if you were late for a tee time?
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Here’s why electric vehicles need EV-specific tires | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/heres-why-electric-vehicles-need-ev-specific-tires/?utm_social-type=owned&utm_brand=ars&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0to67Yb5G0-VzWin5CSMBczTOVa4ARX0cteT1-utGrevOpNyvExBDZYvA)
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I'll wait a few years when they have the tires figured out
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Swapping the battery pack is not as simple as it sounds because they have a thermal cooling and heating system built into the pack as well as the weight and size of the pack itself does not lend itself to swapping. I'm sure it could be done, but like others have said for the average person 300 miles of range is plenty and then with the super charges a lot of folks can charge way up in 30-45 minutes.
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45 minutes at Buckee's is an eternity
45 minutes at Slovacek's is heaven
(https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/200x200/25567420_ssGtubUoilkScuXzSPnK02uSSDUo7UxbWUlbjzXQNzY.jpg)
(https://www.slovacek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/kolaches.jpg)
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The recent battery packs are an important part of frame stiffness as well.
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45 minutes at Buckee's is an eternity
45 minutes at Slovacek's is heaven
(https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/200x200/25567420_ssGtubUoilkScuXzSPnK02uSSDUo7UxbWUlbjzXQNzY.jpg)
(https://www.slovacek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/kolaches.jpg)
Man you really are a closet-Texan. :)
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yup, I prefer the sausage/cheese/jalapeño in West
either side of 35 is fine with me
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yup, I prefer the sausage/cheese/jalapeño in West
either side of 35 is fine with me
You know the savory meat versions aren't actually called kolaches, right? They're technically a "klobasnek."
Of course, there's also no such thing as a chicken or shrimp fajita, so there you have it.
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yup
kolache rolls off my yankee tongue better "klobasnek."
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Think of an oil change setup, with shops stocking the most common batteries. Machines swapping them out, so weight isn't an issue.
It's feasible, unless you let your distaste for the messenger of the idea cloud your judgement.
Not gonna happen in passenger vehicles. The battery packs are a stressed member of the frame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stressed_member_engine#Automobiles) in order to improve rigidity. Making them a removable item means that you have to massively bulk up the frame of the vehicle to reach the same rigidity, increasing vehicle weight and decreasing efficiency. It likely means that you also have to build a much more durable frame for the battery to have it withstand repeated insertion and removal. Again more weight, and less efficiency. All that increased weight means more load on tires, more load on drivetrain, more load on the road. It's one thing to do it in a cordless drill, it's another to do it in a multi-ton vehicle. And this is largely unnecessary in a world where most EV owners charge at home and it's only the rare exception that they need to figure it out for a road trip.
It's not a weight problem at the "fill station" per se; it's an engineering trade-off that is unnecessary and unwise to make. Charging infrastructure is the answer, not battery swaps.
I haven't really looked at it closely when you think about vehicles like long-haul trucks, though. The battery and frame weight of the tractor on an electric 18-wheeler compared to the overall combined weight of a full trailer load, along with the much bigger size of a tractor, may make it viable there. Especially since those trucks make money when they're rolling, not when they're charging. What you give up in efficiency may be regained in what you can actually earn per day.
But it doesn't make sense in a typical passenger car.
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All of it's fluid. What is now may not be in the near future.
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yup, batteries "could" become much smaller and lighter in the future
heck, some folks thought gasoline burning passenger cars would be around forever
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All of it's fluid. What is now may not be in the near future.
In the long run, we are all dead. -John Maynard Keynes
I'm talking about what we have line of sight to. Even solid state batteries, with their advantages, in my opinion don't get us remotely close to battery swaps making sense. It may be the future. It's not the near future.
But sure, keep on keepin' on. Just don't @ me when I'm talking about cold fusion powered vehicles like it's impractical 🙄
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(https://i.imgur.com/Jp8a94X.png)
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we've been using nuclear submarines for decades
it's only a matter of time, IF the evil oil companies will just allow it to happen
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The battery swap concept has been examined and even tried, and it's simply not a good option, for various reasons noted. Nobody is seriously looking at it today.
The inductive charging concept has more "legs" at this point.
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heck, inductive charging could be a thing in that Walmart parking lot covered in solar panels
just park your car and go shopping, no cables needed
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Upside Down: Study Finds Evs Cost More to Drive Than Gas-Powered
What has turned the EV world upside down is a report by Anderson Economic Group or AEG. It found that mid-priced electric cars cost more to run than similar gas-powered cars. However, this doesn’t apply to luxury EVs and ICE vehicles.
Based on current prices, internal combustion cars need $11.29 of gas for every 100 miles driven. For electric, that goes up to $11.60. That’s if they charge their EV at home. For those that need to frequent charging stations, that number jumps up to $14.40.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/upside-down-study-finds-evs-cost-more-to-drive-than-gas-powered/ar-AA16P4Dx?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=c4dddad835704672a1d68469977c0e69 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/upside-down-study-finds-evs-cost-more-to-drive-than-gas-powered/ar-AA16P4Dx?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=c4dddad835704672a1d68469977c0e69)
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Most folks seem to drive SUVs which probably get more like 22 mpg, which means nearly 5 gallons per 100 miles, and with gas at about $3.40 a gallon ...
$15.45 is what I get.
If electricity costs ¢10.7 per kilowatt-hour, charging an EV with a 200-mile range (assuming a fully depleted 54 kWh battery) will cost about $6 to reach a full charge. To compare the fueling costs of individual models of conventional and electric vehicles, see the Vehicle Cost Calculator (https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/).
Now, charging at a station instead of at home can be 3x that or more.
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How Much Does It Cost To Charge An EV? (jdpower.com) (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev)
Your mileage is directly dependent on your battery capacity. Most EVs can generally travel 3 to 4 miles per kilowatt-hour (kWh) of energy. A full recharge, if your vehicle’s range is 300 miles, would require 75-100 kWh and cost $10-$14.
However, cost-efficiency comes at the price of convenience. All EVs are supplied with a home-charging cable that plugs into a wall outlet and charges about 3 to 6 miles into your car per hour (Level 1 charger). To achieve faster charging, many owners install Level 2 chargers, which are wall-mounted panels with a 240-volt circuit. They deliver about 20-40 miles of range per hour but cost $550 for the unit, not taking into account the cost of labor.
When using this method, costs will depend on the price of electricity in your area. They differ from state to state, so your monthly mileage will vary.
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There is a Tesla supercharging station near us in the basement parking garage of a "development". We drove through there a while back, every station was occupied but one. (My step son had rented a Tesla.) He said they had penalties for leaving your car parked there with a full charge, but it's going to be an inssue. You pull up to a charging station and it's either full or broken, and then what?
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obviously needs some government regulation
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2024 Chevrolet Blazer EV vs. Equinox EV: What’s the Difference? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ev-vs-equinox-electric-suv-specs-comparison/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2cXXR4oz9--dws7C2uuknw_SQ_DbfvmC5XwgZoTMBfLiqkLo9ltgOZ2lY)
Equinox EV models with FWD will have 210 hp and 242 lb-ft of torque, while those with AWD will bump up to 290 hp and 346 lb-ft. Expect to see similar numbers for the Blazer, which Chevrolet has not announced power figures for—except the range-topping Blazer SS (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ss-ev-suv-preview-teaser/), which will pack a dual-motor powertrain that throws down 557 hp and 648 lb-ft of torque. It seems likely that the Blazer will have a sportier demeanor than the demure Equinox.
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sportier
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There is a Tesla supercharging station near us in the basement parking garage of a "development". We drove through there a while back, every station was occupied but one. (My step son had rented a Tesla.) He said they had penalties for leaving your car parked there with a full charge, but it's going to be an inssue. You pull up to a charging station and it's either full or broken, and then what?
Super charger or Level 2 charger?
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Any kind of charger could be broken or occupied too long ...
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same as a gas pump
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Yeah, sure, but gas pumps today are pretty reliable. As EVs become more common, we'll obviously need a lot more charging stations that are reliable.
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yup, charging stations will probably evolve faster than gas pumps
EVs will also evolve and be much improved in a few years
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I'm curious as to how much better EVs will be in say five years. There certainly will be a lot more of them, types, brands, etc. My GUESS is range is going to top out around 300 miles (plus a bit). Charging speeds may improve further, and it would be nice to have charging stations that are universal. Then there is the price question, Tesla and Ford have cut prices recently, GM cut prices on their EUV Bolt as well, and you have the tax credit (that is limited).
I think there is a lot to be had with delivery vehicles, FedEx etc. and maybe city buses.
When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase? I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
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Not on my radar at all. I'll stick to gasoline.
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When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase? I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
One issue for me is that I've learned not to trust the media. They strongly resist reporting facts that are counter to the narrative being pushed by the establishment.
In this case, I want to know the impact of temperature and towing on EV range. It is 12° where I am right now and projected to drop into the single digits tonight. With an ICE the heat is basically "free" because it is a byproduct of the combustion in the cylinders. The only thing necessary to heat the vehicle is to transmit and distribute the existing heat. With an EV there is no "free" heat so you'd necessarily have to use electricity to create it and I know from home wiring that making heat takes a lot of juice. How much does that impact range?
If I bought a PHEV how much would my range from at 30°, how much at 20°, how much at 10° or even lower?
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Range is clearly a major downside with low T and towing. This has been widely reported. I think the car mags in general do a good job of presenting test results and data. They highlighted these two issues, so I don't believe they are somehow avoiding important facts that run counter to the narrative.
My OPINION is that in ~five years, a lot of the deficiencies will be partly addressed for me personally to the point I'd give one serious consideration. I might still opt for a hybrid were I in the market then. I don't tow or live where it gets very cold of course and we have charging stations all over locally. We do drive longer distances at times, but might not be doing that in five years. I'd rent something if that was an issue.
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When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase? I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
It will be a serious contender for my next purchase.
When I bought the Flex in 2017, it was with the understanding that I needed a vehicle for me + my wife + my three kids + eventually a dog. So I needed something with plenty of room. At the time, the only remotely acceptable EV on the market was the Tesla Model X, and IMHO it was not only out of my price range, but the EV infrastructure was still too new and underdeveloped to do it.
I will keep the Flex at least until my eldest leaves for college in 3 1/2 years. So realistically I'll be looking for another vehicle roundabout 2026-27. Possibly longer if I keep the Flex a little while beyond that, as my annual driving mileage isn't as high as it was pre-pandemic. I just crossed 80K miles but probably won't be much past 100K by then. I'm sure i could keep it even longer, maybe 125K.
So when I'm ready to buy, I think the EV market will be MUCH more developed than it was in 2017, and with all of the new EVs coming out over the next 3-4 years, much more developed than it is in 2023.
At that point it'll probably come down to:
- Difference in acquisition price of BEV vs ICEV in the class and style of vehicle I want.
- Whether there is a robust used market for quality BEVs such that I don't have to buy new off the lot.
- Assuming that I'm a homeowner (as opposed to currently renting) and can put in a charger in the garage.
- If the acquisition cost of BEV is significantly higher, the question of how much I'm driving will really matter. Buying and charging at home is generally cheaper than buying gas, but if I'm only driving say 5-6K/year, does it pencil out?
So I haven't made up my mind on the vehicle choice at that time, but that's when I'll seriously consider BEV.
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Good point about driving "miles per year". Our five year old GTI is just under 30,000 miles. It does pretty well on mpg, I get upper 30s on the road and maybe 28 mpg around town. So, we're using about 200 gal per year, or $700 or so (for premium at Costco). Even if charging was free, that isn't that much to worry about (for me).
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Good point about driving "miles per year". Our five year old GTI is just under 30,000 miles. It does pretty well on mpg, I get upper 30s on the road and maybe 28 mpg around town. So, we're using about 200 gal per year, or $700 or so (for premium at Costco). Even if charging was free, that isn't that much to worry about (for me).
Yeah, and I've also got the Jeep that can split mileage when the weather is nice. Which, quite frankly, is most of the year here.
So whether it'll make financial sense to go BEV or not will be decided when we get there.
CA will be interesting because gas is expensive here, but so is electricity. Where those two fit relative to each other 4 years from now, and which way they're trending, will also be a bit part of it. If CA starts having more and more EVs such that the grid demand goes up, and the price of electricity rises relative to gas, it might actually flip the "dollars per mile" calculation the other way.
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yup, charging stations will probably evolve faster than gas pumps
You think so? How many years will it take to build up the grid with all new power lines - just for charging stations.The cost? Power Companies aren't going to do that out of the kindness of their heart. Have you been tilting some schooners with brandon up in Sewer City?
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Tesla, General Motors get boost from EV SUV tax credit change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/03/biden-ev-tax-credits-tesla-suv.html)
The change raises the retail price cap to $80,000 from $55,000 for vehicles such as the Tesla Model Y, Cadillac Lyriq, Ford Mustang Mach-E (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/30/ford-mustang-mach-e-price-cut.html) and Volkswagen’s ID.4. Previously some or all models of these vehicles did not qualify because they didn’t weigh enough to be considered an SUV by the Treasury’s standards.
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You think so? How many years will it take to build up the grid with all new power lines - just for charging stations.The cost? Power Companies aren't going to do that out of the kindness of their heart. Have you been tilting some schooners with brandon up in Sewer City?
Well, you're conflating a few things here. Fearless was talking about charging station evolution. We've seen massive improvements in just the last 5 years in fast charging stations. Tesla is talking about boosting the charging voltage starting with the Cybertruck that will improve charge times...
...assuming the Cybertruck actually starts shipping in the next 5 years. It's been a year away for the last 5 or so LOL.
As for the grid, I'm not thinking there will need to be a huge upgrade in power lines, specifically. The bigger issue is actual generation capacity and making sure that if the overall load on the grid increases due to all this charging, that it can be handled. And then the issue from an environmental sense is that we invest in all this extra generation but it's coal or NG, it just moves the emissions from the tailpipe to the generation plant (albeit with some likely efficiency gains).
But I expect charging technology to improve and infrastructure to be built out significantly in the next 5 years. And obviously (per Fearless's point) we'll see it growing at a faster rate than gas pumps, because gas pump technology is mature, and infrastructure is sufficiently saturated at this point.
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Range is clearly a major downside with low T and towing. This has been widely reported. I think the car mags in general do a good job of presenting test results and data. They highlighted these two issues, so I don't believe they are somehow avoiding important facts that run counter to the narrative.
The impact of towing and temperature on range hasn't been completely suppressed but you have to look harder to find it. A lot of the development and testing is done in places like SoCal where "cold" means 50° not NE Ohio where it is presently 12°.
I've also heard stories of guys who bought F150 Lightnings only to discover that when they hooked up their boats they had approximately enough range to take their boat to visit their nextdoor neighbors.
There aren't altogether unreported but they aren't front-and-center headline news either, you have to look.
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I don't see much "news" about EVs in normal news channels, but there is a lot in the various and sundry car mags. Anyone wanting to understand the pros and cons of an EV can access plenty of information.
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The impact of towing and temperature on range hasn't been completely suppressed but you have to look harder to find it. A lot of the development and testing is done in places like SoCal where "cold" means 50° not NE Ohio where it is presently 12°.
I've also heard stories of guys who bought F150 Lightnings only to discover that when they hooked up their boats they had approximately enough range to take their boat to visit their nextdoor neighbors.
There aren't altogether unreported but they aren't front-and-center headline news either, you have to look.
The F-150 Lighting starts at $55,974.
I'd argue that if you're making that expensive of a purchase, on a brand new vehicle using relatively new BEV technology rather than extraordinarily well-understood ICEV technology, that it's incumbent upon you to look. And then to understand whether the capabilities of the vehicle meet your needs.
We seem to constantly get into the EV fight where the pro-EV crowd tries to convince EVERYONE that a BEV will meet their needs, while the anti-EV crowd tries to convince everyone that if a BEV can't do EVERYTHING an ICEV can do, that it meets nobody's needs.
But there's a huge middle ground between those two.
If I was towing a massive boat, I'd let other people be the guinea pigs with BEV trucks. But I have more general driving needs, and once the family downsizes a bit I'm comfortable that a BEV would satisfy my driving needs enough that I'm not worried about BEV tech in general. Only whether it will make financial sense.
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When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically. You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now.
Do truck owners not want any front clearance? It goes so low up front. I don't get it.
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The F-150 Lighting starts at $55,974.
I'd argue that if you're making that expensive of a purchase, on a brand new vehicle using relatively new BEV technology rather than extraordinarily well-understood ICEV technology, that it's incumbent upon you to look. And then to understand whether the capabilities of the vehicle meet your needs.
We seem to constantly get into the EV fight where the pro-EV crowd tries to convince EVERYONE that a BEV will meet their needs, while the anti-EV crowd tries to convince everyone that if a BEV can't do EVERYTHING an ICEV can do, that it meets nobody's needs.
But there's a huge middle ground between those two.
If I was towing a massive boat, I'd let other people be the guinea pigs with BEV trucks. But I have more general driving needs, and once the family downsizes a bit I'm comfortable that a BEV would satisfy my driving needs enough that I'm not worried about BEV tech in general. Only whether it will make financial sense.
I agree with this.
I see cold for me in NE Ohio as being similar to what towing would be where you live and it is a reason to hold off longer here than I would if I lived where you live.
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Imagine towing IN the cold of NE Ohio!
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When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically. You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now.
Do truck owners not want any front clearance? It goes so low up front. I don't get it.
I'm not sure why they got so tall. But I know why they're so low in the front. It's all for aerodynamics / gas mileage.
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the federal govt will throw billions at charging station infrastructure if needed
hey, in five years I could be retired and living in Texas
perhaps not driving many miles a tall and near a metroplex like Dallas/FW
an EV could be a great fit at that time
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Tesla Model Y or Ford Mustang Mach-E: Which Has More Bang for Your Buck? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/tesla-model-y-vs-ford-mustang-mach-e-price-value-comparison/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR32Qb3LWOkYWx5jgnQDzhzaG1pQByWlV_gBxdFJZt5kr8Lauc06NI3b9ZU)
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When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically. You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now.
Do truck owners not want any front clearance? It goes so low up front. I don't get it.
front clearance means air turbulence under the truck which decreases gas mileage
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There also are some bumper height requirements.
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really, have you seen the C8 Corvette?
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These 9 Electric Cars Lose The Most Range In Winter
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/these-9-electric-cars-lose-the-most-range-in-winter/ar-AA174qXv?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=37c276b0afdb41f6ab019785c9b903b8 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/these-9-electric-cars-lose-the-most-range-in-winter/ar-AA174qXv?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=37c276b0afdb41f6ab019785c9b903b8)
Tesla Model 3 – 17% Est. Range Loss
Hyundai Kona EV – 19% Est. Range Loss
Tesla Model S – 19% Est. Range Loss
Nissan Leaf – 21% Est. Range Loss
Volkswagen E-Golf – 23% Est. Range Loss
BMW i3 – 24% Est. Range Loss
Ford Mustang Mach-E – 30% Est. Range Loss
Volkswagen ID.4 – 30% Est. Range Loss
Chevrolet Bolt – 32% Est. Range Loss
The Chevy Bolt is a perfect electric car for buyers wanting to buy their first affordable BEV. It's an intriguing model with excellent efficiency, modern technology, and an impressive driving range. Plus, its visual styling makes it more appealing and popular.
Owners of this American hot hatch praise its range, performance, and value for the money. Yet, in a frigid environment or even in mildly cold weather, the battery's performance deteriorates drastically. It’s so sensitive to outside temperatures that in freezing conditions, the operating range falls by a remarkable 32%. Moreover, its thermal management system won't activate when the car is off, only reheating it when the vehicle is on.
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I'm not sure why they got so tall. But I know why they're so low in the front. It's all for aerodynamics / gas mileage.
My F-250 is tall in the front also. I am 6'2" and need a step ladder to get a good view under the hood.
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2024 Mercedes-Benz eSprinter Electrifies VanLife (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42775886/2024-mercedes-benz-esprinter-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0HJw97qGLR7nV1bOqa019bCDf1s4DR6YoMxDk6dwUdxZvN06BHzmoB6_M)
Right now, electric cargo vans are a fringe market, but Mercedes-Benz says that starting in 2025, all new Benz vans will be electric. Along with the electric Rivian Amazon vans (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41886430/rivian-electric-vans-amazon-delivery-vehicles/) and the Ford E-Transit (https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit), the 2024 e-Sprinter is on the leading edge of stealth delivery vehicles. Imagine the GMC Vandura (https://bringatrailer.com/2019/05/23/radvan-preserved-1985-gmc-vandura-conversion-van/) A-Team van, but completely opposite.
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https://youtu.be/Zyqlv6aZxjE
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https://youtu.be/-T9h1iUkPN4
1st three minutes tells about a guy who charged the vehicle for a week before a trip and he got 56 miles
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maybe he used the wrong charger
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I don't really trust utibers saying such things.
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I wouldn't dare buy a Rivian. Too new, and too late, to battle with the big boys of the auto industry. Tesla may have enough of a first mover advantage to be fine (although their product line is getting increasingly stale and the Cybertruck missed its window to be a first mover), but Rivian does not. With the bevy of BEV pickups that are released or are about to be released by major automakers, I don't see Rivian surviving standalone.
Is it possible that this guy's Rivian had some sort of firmware bug or other defect that caused excessive drain? Sure. Could this particular truck simply be a lemon? Possibly. Does that mean that every EV will suffer from this type of problem? Of course not. Scotty is just throwing out red meat to the people who are already anti-EV.
I see plenty of Rivians on the road here in SoCal--at least one or two that I see in my neighborhood walking the dog. If every Rivian had this problem, it would be major news in EV circles.
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Never even heard of Rivian.
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Never even heard of Rivian.
That's a little surprising to me... I thought they were pretty well known.
I could be biased because their HQ is about 5 miles from my office in Irvine, so maybe I see them a lot more than people would elsewhere. I honestly see them on the road here quite a bit.
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maybe he used the wrong charger
The you tuber makes no sense. As is often the case.
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That's a little surprising to me... I thought they were pretty well known.
I could be biased because their HQ is about 5 miles from my office in Irvine, so maybe I see them a lot more than people would elsewhere. I honestly see them on the road here quite a bit.
I occasionally read articles on EVs in general and EV pickups in particular, so I know of Rivian.
I've never seen one in the Austin area, though, while Teslas appear to be every fourth vehicle on the road in this town.
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Not a lot of EV's in these parts. The old folks love them some IC engines.
Me too.
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Austin is an EV kinda town. I suspect the EV pickups from the big 3 will eventually do pretty well in this city.
But as others have stated above, I don't think the Tesla Cybertruck or the Rivian will be able to compete with those offerings.
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I don't really trust utibers saying such things.
The guy is a car expert if there is one,he gives out volumes of repair advice. As a guy who has been wrenching on vehicles for over 5 decades - he's not a fraud. He used to be on CBS years ago for weekly car advice.
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I don’t believe him on this at all
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It could be possible the dude plugged in an EV at nearly full charge for 8 days, and then found his range had only increased 56 miles, because that put him at 100% charge.
Well, duh. I think we all know EVs are not remotely like charging 8 miles in a day. I think we'd have heard this from owners by now considering how many are out there.
His earlier video about gasoline being cheaper is also highly misleading.
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It could be possible the dude plugged in an EV at nearly full charge for 8 days, and then found his range had only increased 56 miles, because that put him at 100% charge.
Well, duh. I think we all know EVs are not remotely like charging 8 miles in a day. I think we'd have heard this from owners by now considering how many are out there.
His earlier video about gasoline being cheaper is also highly misleading.
Yeah, no matter what the root cause, he's cherry-picking an outlier and using it to prove his thesis, that you shouldn't buy an EV. It could be a lemon Rivian. It could be a faulty charging unit. It could be user error. Either way, it's not the norm.
And the thing about gas being cheaper was based on a study that has some, let's call them, questionable methods... https://www.carscoops.com/2023/01/falling-gas-prices-mean-a-mid-level-ev-can-be-more-expensive-to-operate/
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Sure, I saw that "study", and it indeed is ridiculous. It's pretty easy to calculate how expensive it is to charge your car at home of course, it gets more expensive at charging stations.
Certainly, if EVs are more expensive to operate, I doubt many folks would buy them at all.
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but, they should if they believe in climate change and want to do their part
why vote for lawmakers that would throw money at a problem if you're not willing to do the same?
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OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — Warren Buffett’s company has now sold nearly 95 million of its original 225 million shares of Chinese electric carmaker BYD’s stock, but it remains a significant shareholder.
Berkshire Hathaway said in a filing with the Hong Kong stock market Thursday that it had sold another 4.235 million BYD shares since last month. Disclosure rules only require Berkshire to reveal when its ownership stake decreases into another percentage point.
After the most-recent sales, Berkshire still held 130.3 million BYD shares or about 12% of the stock. At its last report late last month, Berkshire, which is based in Omaha, Nebraska, controlled 13% of the stock.
Until last August, Berkshire had never sold any of the BYD shares it bought in 2008. The stake Berkshire paid $232 million for had ballooned in value to be worth billions of dollars.
BYD, based in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen, is one of the biggest electric vehicle makers in the world, having sold nearly 1.9 million cars in 2022 including pure electrics, plug-ins and hybrids.
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Chinese automaker Zeekr has unveiled a new model, the 2023 Zeekr 001, an electric car that can reportedly travel a whopping 641 miles on a single charge.
If the new vehicle can deliver on its purported specs, it will represent a milestone moment in EV development. Automotive news website Motor1.com writes that the 2023 Zeeker 001 would be “the world’s longest-range production vehicle to our knowledge,” as the car would be capable of driving from Washington, D.C. to Atlanta, Georgia on a single charge.
Car and Driver, which maintains a list of the longest-range EVs on the market, currently ranks the 2022 Air from California carmaker Lucid as the top performer with a range of 520 miles. That’s more than 100 miles fewer than the 2023 Zeekr 001 — and the Zeekr model is approximately $125,000 less expensive.
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Ford will develop the LFP batteries alongside China’s Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Limited (CATL), a global producer of EV batteries — though the automaker stressed that it will own and operate the plant outright through its wholly owned subsidiary and that the Chinese company will only provide “knowledge and services.” The construction project will generate 2,500 jobs for the region, with initial production expected to commence in 2026.
Ford claims it is the first automaker to commit to developing two separate battery chemistries for its EVs at the same time: lithium iron phosphate (LFP) and nickel cobalt manganese (NCM). (Tesla is also producing vehicles with LFP batteries.)
Most of today’s EVs use lithium-ion batteries whose cathodes use NCM chemistries. But NCM also has a lot of baggage, due mostly to cobalt, which has been called the “blood diamond of batteries” because it’s been mined in a way that’s endangered child workers and wrecked the environment in the Democratic Republic of Congo.
In contrast, LFP batteries tend to be cheaper and longer lasting but aren’t as energy dense as NCM batteries. LFP batteries are also less complex to produce. The new factory with CATL will add approximately 35 gigawatt-hours (GWh) of LFP battery capacity, the company adds.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-s-evs-are-getting-faster-charging-and-more-affordable-batteries-thanks-to-new-chemistry/ar-AA17rg2s?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=66bd8a1dcedc46528f0c8c6bee3ff848 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-s-evs-are-getting-faster-charging-and-more-affordable-batteries-thanks-to-new-chemistry/ar-AA17rg2s?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=66bd8a1dcedc46528f0c8c6bee3ff848)
https://youtu.be/Uwv8jega9NY
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For some electric vehicle owners, recharging now more costly than filling up - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-car-2023-costs-gas-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=201374173)
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Ford Motor has paused production and shipments of its electric F-150 Lightning pickup due to a potential battery issue.
The EV truck is being closely watched by investors, as it's the first mainstream electric pickup on the market and a major launch for Ford.
The production halt adds to ongoing "execution issues" detailed to investors earlier this month by Ford CEO Jim Farley.
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Tesla, for the first time, has made a commitment to open up its electric vehicle (EV) charging stations to non-Tesla vehicles – taking a sweet deal from the Department of Transportation as President Biden's administration ramps up its effort to build a coast-to-coast EV charging network.
The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs. Elon Musk's company, which operates the second-largest charging network in America behind ChargePoint, has agreed to make at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024 and to distribute those chargers across the United States.
Tesla will place at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural areas, the White House said.
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NEW YORK (AP) — Lithium ion batteries used to power electric bicycles and scooters have already sparked 22 fires that caused 36 injuries and two deaths in New York City this year, four times the number of fires linked to the batteries by this time last year, officials said Friday.
Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh said Mayor Eric Adams’ administration is “coming at this problem from every single angle,” including working with the City Council and the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission on additional regulations for the batteries and educating the public on their proper use and storage.
“These are incredibly dangerous devices, and we must make sure that members of the community are handling them properly and using them safely,” Kavanagh said at a briefing on public safety.
Many of the fires blamed on the batteries have been caused by malfunctioning devices left to charge overnight and placed in a hallway or near a door where they can trap people inside a burning apartment.
Three children and an adult were injured this month when a charging battery started a fire in their upper Manhattan apartment at 1:30 a.m., officials said.
Fire Department Chief of Operations John Esposito said after the Feb. 5 blaze that when the battery overheated and sparked a fire, “it blocked the egress out of the apartment, trapping the family.”
Kavanagh said the e-bike batteries “present often an immediate inability to exit one’s room or one’s apartment or one’s home. So it’s really critical that we work with all our partners up here in government around enforcement, around education, around combating the hazards that these present to citizens and first responders.”
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In the northern Swedish city of Skellefteå, 250 construction workers brave the cold every morning to build what's expected to be the largest battery-recycling facility in the world.
The site, near the Arctic Circle, belongs to the battery-manufacturing startup Northvolt and sits next door to its well-established gigafactory, where it supplies automotive giants like BMW, Volkswagen, and Volvo.
Northvolt, valued at $12 billion, was founded in 2016 by Peter Carlsson, a former Tesla vice president who dreams of making the world's greenest battery. The startup is backed by many investors, including Goldman Sachs, Baillie Gifford, VC Norrsken, and Spotify's cofounder Daniel Ek.
Demand for lithium batteries has surged since the advent of electric vehicles, which had a record-breaking year in 2022, accounting for 12.1% of the total market share for new cars in Europe.
Going electric has long been touted as a key fix to the climate crisis, but batteries' start and end of life pose a big, dirty problem — something Northvolt wants to solve.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/northvolt-a-12-billion-startup-founded-by-an-ex-tesla-vp-thinks-crushing-and-shredding-old-batteries-is-the-way-to-make-electric-vehicles-truly-sustainable/ar-AA19qazO?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=ba2b9e6ac76a43dca72585b73cc12aab&ei=57 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/northvolt-a-12-billion-startup-founded-by-an-ex-tesla-vp-thinks-crushing-and-shredding-old-batteries-is-the-way-to-make-electric-vehicles-truly-sustainable/ar-AA19qazO?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=ba2b9e6ac76a43dca72585b73cc12aab&ei=57)
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GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/660881/gm-overtakes-ford-as-no-2-seller-of-evs-in-us-trails-tesla/?fbclid=IwAR2574DaVQy_Z20sSmGbRhGjT4RjOEO1Z9IePjXI-uYFWqYN16c3v3esWyI)
What does the future look like? Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead? Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?
Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?
I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.
GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.
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As of now, I don't think it's not practical for us.
We have to run the A/C nearly all the time here. That takes juice on top of moving the car.
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better leave the gas pumps up for a while
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GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/660881/gm-overtakes-ford-as-no-2-seller-of-evs-in-us-trails-tesla/?fbclid=IwAR2574DaVQy_Z20sSmGbRhGjT4RjOEO1Z9IePjXI-uYFWqYN16c3v3esWyI)
What does the future look like? Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead? Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?
Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?
I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.
GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.
I find it very interesting to speculate where Tesla will be in 10 years.
Pros:
- Significant first mover advantage in technology and experience. I expect the big players to face a learning curve with the first few high-volume models to be able to catch up.
- First mover advantage in Supercharger infrastructure.
- Ecosystem network effects, similar to Apple, in being integrated. For example on a road trip your car knows where all the Tesla Supercharger stations are, can route your trip such that you're hitting them at the right remaining battery percentages, automatically preps the battery thermally for charging while you approach the station to reduce charging time, etc.
- Brand equity, also similar to Apple. I think most Tesla owners don't think you REALLY own an EV if it's not a Tesla.
- Attempt to actually get a lead in vertical integration and a lead in battery technology. I've stated previously my thesis that batteries, being such an important piece of the EV build cost, are an area that an EV maker needs some differentiation to make the transition. I'm not sure how much of it is Tesla and how much is Panasonic, but if you listen to Tesla, they crow about their tech.
- Self-driving. Right now it seems to be vaporware, in the sense that although they have the most advanced L2 system out there, I don't know if they can ever build that into L4/L5 capability. But if they can, it would be massive.
Cons:
- No truck. The one they have, if it ever makes it into production, will be late and looks stupid. It's an important vehicle category and they've ceded first mover advantage there.
- Stale product lineup. Model S and X are long in the tooth. In a traditional automaker, they'd have been refreshed by now, perhaps twice. Model 3 probably on its first refresh by now.
- Finances. Tesla with the limited lineup has to be a growth company. They're now on MUCH stronger financial footing than they were a few years ago when I think they had serious liquidity problems and had to do a cash raise. But do they have the funding to achieve the growth they need? In today's financial environment, can they raise more funding at acceptable cost to get there?
- Elon Musk. Tesla fans think he's Steve Jobs 2.0, but whereas Jobs was hyper-focused and had insane attention to detail, Musk is scatterbrained and wants to do everything all at once. And now he's got his hands into Twitter.
- Consistent inability to do things on time. Hence Cybertruck. Hence Full Self Driving. Robotaxis. Etc. You can do that when you have first mover advantage. You can't do that when you're trying to defend first mover advantage.
- Focus on aspects of driving that are less important to most drivers. Largely due to Musk IMHO. I.e. over-emphasis on 0-60 time. Whereas most car owners really want a car that's fast enough to merge onto the freeway but don't care beyond that.
- Not as "luxury" as they think. The Model 3 always gets compared to BMW and Mercedes and Audi because of price, not actual luxury. And "Luxury" is not the biggest area for automotive volume--Tesla hasn't shown the ability to go down-market, despite continuously promising such.
- Losing the "cool factor". I'll tell you that here in SoCal, nobody thinks Tesla is cool any more except Tesla owners. And there are so many of them that it's not an exclusive club either. If you drive a Model 3, it doesn't even garner a first look, much less a second look.
The next 10 years of the EV market are going to be wild. Tesla has a lead. We'll see if they can do anything with it.
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My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide? Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country? Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
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We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.
The gas stations are nearly all independently owned. Very few are owned by "Exxon" etc.. If there is demand, they will get built. Our Kroger already has two separate private charging stations in their parking lot. I think this is the way of the nearer future, stations where folks are going to be spending some time anyway.
I think I read VW is also getting into the game.
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My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide? Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country? Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
It's already being done. Obviously Tesla has their Supercharger network. There are others that aren't directly affiliated with specific automakers like Electrify America and Chargepoint, although I believe (as CD alludes to) that Electrify America is partially owned/funded by automakers including VW.
We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.
I disagree that we need more stations, even with the slower rate of charge. IMHO EV fueling stations are unlikely to be as plentiful as gas stations. If you ask most EV owners, one of the best things about an EV is that you charge it at home. The range is sufficient for most owners that the only time they'd need to use a third-party charger is on a road trip. They love the fact that they almost never have to go to a gas station.
I often highlight this, however, as one reason that EV adoption may not be as fast as some predict. The cost advantage makes the most sense when you charge at home, because third-party charging will be at higher rates than home service. And given the number of people in this country who live in apartments, who rent single-family homes (where an owner might not be willing to pay for a charger), or live in places where all they have access to is street parking, home charging won't be feasible for them.
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Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially. We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks. And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling. We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).
But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best. I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline. One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).
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Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially. We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks. And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling. We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).
But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best. I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline. One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).
2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised.
I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050.
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The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already. I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.
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2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised.
I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050.
I think the biggest issue with Automomous Driving is getting all the cars with some level of Autonomy. When you have all or most cars driving themselves and talking to the other nearby cars as well you make it easier. One single person driven car out of 30 AD messes it up, because that one factor is not programmable.
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^^^
Great point.
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seems to me there are many points that aren't programmable
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The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already. I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.
"Pretty good" is not autonomous.
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The Best Self Driving Tech? 2022 Cadillac Escalade Super Cruise Review! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy8S9rkBRVc)
No, it's not fully autonomous, but it's quite good.
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The 2024 Kia EV9 Will Drive 300 Miles on a Single Charge (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-kia-ev9-range-300-miles-single-charge/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3G5c7sspeT766RQnWg2hBE-aJkUlMmaS_zsL1wL7OiNb1uOCgT_uNNcg8)
Thanks to its standard 800V electrical architecture—a key distinction of its E-GMP platform—Kia estimates the three-row electric SUV will charge from 10 to 80 percent in under 25 minutes using a 230-kWh Level 3 charger. Those times are a little higher than the smaller EV6, but if our experience with the EV6 serves as proof, we have no doubt we'll see the numbers Kia claims for the EV9.
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The price is not yet available, I presume it's $65K plus or so for a three row. 300 mile range is pretty decent. So, you drive 250 miles and are 83% discharged and spend about 20 minutes to get to 80% charge (240 miles range) and drive on. Not too terrible I think (if you can find the right charger).
One issue is that driving fast on freeways is not where range is optimized, you might really only see 260 mile range, and cold weather and heavier load ...
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Porsche Confirms Electric Cayenne Will Follow 718 EV Sports Cars (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43294814/porsche-electric-cayenne-confirmation/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR3G5c7sspeT766RQnWg2hBE-aJkUlMmaS_zsL1wL7OiNb1uOCgT_uNNcg8)
- Porsche confirmed that an electric version of the Cayenne is on its way in a press conference today.
- The Cayenne EV will come after the electric 718 sports cars that are due in 2025, and is expected to ride on the PPE platform.
- An update on the gas-powered Cayenne will be launched this year and will include three plug-in hybrid versions with improved all-electric range.
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This is where improvement is needed
https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-announces-plans-cheaper-iron-based-batteries
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So with cheaper batteries they will at least get you outta the driveway and down to 1st 2 or 3 stop signs before tapping out
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nickel-based batteries, which have a capacity of 75 kilowatt-hours (kWh), as opposed to LFP batteries, which will be able to hold 53 kWh.
You get 3-4 miles per kWh. So, you'd drop from about 260 miles range to about 180 miles of range. I don't know about recharge time, another factor.
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WASHINGTON (AP) — Many Americans aren’t yet sold on going electric for their next cars, a new poll shows, with high prices and too few charging stations the main deterrents. About 4 in 10 U.S. adults are at least somewhat likely to switch, but the history-making shift from the country’s century-plus love affair with gas-driven vehicles still has a ways to travel.
The poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the Energy Policy Institute at the University of Chicago shows that the Biden administration’s plans to dramatically raise U.S. EV sales could run into resistance from consumers. Only 8% of U.S. adults say they or someone in their household owns or leases an electric vehicle, and just 8% say their household has a plug-in hybrid vehicle.
Even with tax credits of up to $7,500 to buy a new EV, it could be difficult to persuade drivers to ditch their gas-burning cars and trucks for vehicles without tailpipe emissions.
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This is all about government control.
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Not of themselves of course
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It would happen without any government prodding, I think, but more slowly. We all know the issues with EVs. Some should get solved over time.
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I guess I'll buy my last Benz next year.
Mercedes-Benz will go all-electric by 2025, and has big plans for electric vehicles | TechRadar (https://www.techradar.com/news/mercedes-benz-will-go-all-electric-by-2025-and-has-big-plans-for-electric-vehicles)
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All newly developed vehicle architecture from that point on will be electric-only, and the company will offer an EV alternative in every vehicle it makes.
That means they would still offer ICE alternatives for most vehicles it makes also.
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General Motors invests in EnergyX lithium extraction (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/11/general-motors-energyx-investment.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/c0k0e30.png)
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This is all about government control.
...of the rate at which the inevitable thing will happen.
So really, you'd be bitching about the pace of progress. Not exactly big gub'mint.
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Government control obviously can be bad and nefarious, but not always. Duh. EVs are coming, government is trying to make them come faster (probably with limited success). Norway has done it by lifting tolls, taxes, and fees on EVs and they have a lot of toll roads.
The Norwegian EV incentives: No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs. Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25 percent VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over; No annual road tax (1996-2021).
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Taxpayer subsidized early adoption.
If the taxpayers are cool with it, then it's no problem.
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EVs make more sense, I think, in Europe, where most cars are small and Diesel now, and distances tend to be shorter*. They burn dirty Diesel also. Then they have these 50 cc scooters that pollute like crazy.
Their air pollution often is really bad.
*They use a funny kind of mile that isn't a mile at all, only about 60% of a mile....
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Taxpayer subsidized early adoption.
If the taxpayers are cool with it, then it's no problem.
Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.
But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
EVs make more sense, I think, in Europe, where most cars are small and Diesel now, and distances tend to be shorter*. They burn dirty Diesel also. Then they have these 50 cc scooters that pollute like crazy.
Their air pollution often is really bad.
*They use a funny kind of mile that isn't a mile at all, only about 60% of a mile....
Well, I do think that the way most Europeans live is a lot more localized and with smaller distances to be traveled on a daily basis.
But at the same time, most American life is pretty damn localized and there aren't long distances to be traveled on a daily basis. 80% of the US population live in urban areas (which I assume includes suburban and possibly even exurban).
But usually the issue is that a car is a very major purchase, and we tend to make those purchases partially on "what do I do 95% of the time?" but also "what do I need to be CAPABLE of doing the other 5% of the time?"
I think for most potential EV purchasers, they are scared an EV won't work for that 10%. Whether that's a road trip, or whether that's towing, or whether that's range anxiety in the coldest 2 weeks of winter.
It's why a lot of multi-car EV families have one BEV and one ICEV. The BEV is great for around-town stuff, and maybe could even be the majority of the family's miles driven. But they like to keep the ICEV (whether it's a truck, or used for road trips, etc) for the times when the BEV might be inconvenient.
In our family, EVs hadn't been mature enough yet when my wife got her RX350, but with our current lifestyle, a BEV makes perfect sense for her. She does the majority of her driving to/from work and running errands and would basically never have any problem with range. With home charging she'd never have to visit a gas station again. And then with me having the Ford Flex (and the Jeep), we'd have an ICEV with plenty of seating that could handle any time we need to take the kids somewhere, or any time we need to road trip. Since I primarily WFH with limited days in the office, our total familial gas consumption would DRASTICALLY drop if she was driving a BEV. When it comes time to replace her RX, it might be with an RZ. Granted that's probably 5+ years from now.
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Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.
But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
Yup, all of this, precisely.
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Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.
But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
Someone once said, "eventually you run out of other people's money."
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These regulations don't cost government much at all, and of course can be reversed by a different president.
They can end up costing consumers a lot.
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WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration is proposing strict new automobile pollution limits that would require as many as two-thirds of new vehicles sold in the U.S. to be electric by 2032, a nearly tenfold increase over current electric vehicle sales.
The proposed regulation, announced Wednesday by the Environmental Protection Agency, would set tailpipe emissions limits for the 2027 through 2032 model years that are the strictest ever imposed — and call for far more new EV sales than the auto industry agreed to less than two years ago.
If finalized next year as expected, the plan would represent the strongest push yet toward a once almost unthinkable shift from gasoline-powered cars and trucks to battery-powered vehicles.
A look at what the EPA is proposing, how the plan serves President Joe Biden’s ambitious goal to cut America’s planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030, and whether the auto industry can meet the new EV targets:
Q. What is the EPA proposing?
A, The proposed tailpipe pollution limits don’t require a specific number of electric vehicles to be sold every year, but instead they mandate limits on greenhouse gas emissions. Depending on how automakers comply, the EPA projects that at least 60% of new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. would be electric by 2030 and up to 67% by 2032.
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Car makers may emphasize EVs that are large and expensive and that would usually burn a lot of gasoline (= CO2) and still make smaller ICE vehicles...
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What will be used to generate the power all of these EV's need?
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Fairy dust. I have read different estimates for how much additional electricity would be needed. The best is around 25% more, though the time of day part is important.
That presumes every car and truck is electric, which won't happen for a LONG time. I read another estimate that compared it to the arrival of whole house air conditioners and how that rather slowly took effect and demand was accomodated.
EVs will come along so slowly I don't think power companies will struggle because of it, they may well struggle to manage the variability of wind and solar.
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My guess was gonna be fairy dust.
This is just stupid.
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Well, stupid or not, it's going to happen, but more slowly than some think.
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Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.
But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
Well, I do think that the way most Europeans live is a lot more localized and with smaller distances to be traveled on a daily basis.
But at the same time, most American life is pretty damn localized and there aren't long distances to be traveled on a daily basis. 80% of the US population live in urban areas (which I assume includes suburban and possibly even exurban).
But usually the issue is that a car is a very major purchase, and we tend to make those purchases partially on "what do I do 95% of the time?" but also "what do I need to be CAPABLE of doing the other 5% of the time?"
I think for most potential EV purchasers, they are scared an EV won't work for that 10%. Whether that's a road trip, or whether that's towing, or whether that's range anxiety in the coldest 2 weeks of winter.
It's why a lot of multi-car EV families have one BEV and one ICEV. The BEV is great for around-town stuff, and maybe could even be the majority of the family's miles driven. But they like to keep the ICEV (whether it's a truck, or used for road trips, etc) for the times when the BEV might be inconvenient.
In our family, EVs hadn't been mature enough yet when my wife got her RX350, but with our current lifestyle, a BEV makes perfect sense for her. She does the majority of her driving to/from work and running errands and would basically never have any problem with range. With home charging she'd never have to visit a gas station again. And then with me having the Ford Flex (and the Jeep), we'd have an ICEV with plenty of seating that could handle any time we need to take the kids somewhere, or any time we need to road trip. Since I primarily WFH with limited days in the office, our total familial gas consumption would DRASTICALLY drop if she was driving a BEV. When it comes time to replace her RX, it might be with an RZ. Granted that's probably 5+ years from now.
My wife bought her Chevy Bolt and this is exactly the situation we are in. She uses the Bolt for day-to-day driving around town for errands and we use a ICE for longer trips.
We live in the Columbus, OH area. We have had a few day trips where we have traveled to Cincinatti, Dayton, and Cleveland that we have used the Bolt for. It's worked pretty well where we drive down, plug in to a charger for about 5 hours (a lvl 2) and then drove home. We've driven to Indy and back once, and that required a hour stop in Dayton at a lvl 3 charger. That is about the farthest we're willing to travel in it (at least in the winter months).
I think it is going to just come down to the technology catching up to where those charge stations can get down to 30 minutes instead of an hour. Once the inconvenience of spending significant time charging goes away, the popularity of EV's is going to increase.
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If I had one, I'd probably use it around town of course and for shorter trips of 3 hours or less. My step son drove a rented Tesla from here to Cincy and said it went fine. But I agree about making the charging times faster. They are getting there, but I don't know how much faster they can go.
It could be ideal to have one ICE and one EV for many families.
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There are pure physical limitations to charging time and storage capacity per unit size that we're not going to break through, unless/until some truly revolutionary battery/storage technology emerges as viable within the market.
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Who has all the raw materials for these batteries?
My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?
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We're currently planning our boy scout troop summer camp trip, we'll be driving out to New Mexico from Austin. We'll have four vehicles carrying the kids, adult leaders, and towing the troop's equipment trailer. But one of the dads/adult leaders who has two sons going, only has electric vehicles in his family. He was asking that we stop twice on the first day, once for an hour, and once for an hour and a half, based on his EV's capability and the availability of charging stations along the route.
I politely suggested that he leave 2-3 hours earlier than us, so that he can arrive at the same time we do.
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We're currently planning our boy scout troop summer camp trip, we'll be driving out to New Mexico from Austin. We'll have four vehicles carrying the kids, adult leaders, and towing the troop's equipment trailer. But one of the dads/adult leaders who has two sons going, only has electric vehicles in his family. He was asking that we stop twice on the first day, once for an hour, and once for an hour and a half, based on his EV's capability and the availability of charging stations along the route.
I politely suggested that he leave 2-3 hours earlier than us, so that he can arrive at the same time we do.
I think we are the same guy.
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Who has all the raw materials for these batteries?
My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?
Chile is the largest producer of lithium
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There are pure physical limitations to charging time and storage capacity per unit size that we're not going to break through, unless/until some truly revolutionary battery/storage technology emerges as viable within the market.
Charging rate (as we discussed early in this thread) is non-linear, with charging being faster when the batteries have less charge and slowing as you approach 100%. We think in terms of gas tanks where there'd never be a reason to stop before it's "full", but that won't be the paradigm IMHO when road tripping with an EV.
Charging rate is also dependent on the type of charger. A Level 2 charger (that you might put in your garage for overnight charging) is WAY too slow for road trip use. But a 250 kW or 350 kW (current max) charger will add charge MUCH faster.
What I think that Tesla has shown is that with planned charging and Superchargers, you might go from 10% to 80% in 20-30 minutes which is plenty to get you a few hundred miles of range. A few hundred miles gets you to the next charging station where you may want to get out and take care of food and/or bio breaks anyway.
Who has all the raw materials for these batteries?
My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?
Depends on which materials you are looking for. Apparently lithium is plentiful. Although I don't know how much actual mining capacity we have worldwide to meet a major spike in lithium demand. It doesn't matter how much there is if we don't have an industry that's sized to dig it out of the ground at the rates we need.
The bigger issue is some of the other metals like cobalt and nickel. That's why automakers are trying to work with the LFP (lithium iron phosphate) chemistry to take some of those more rare metals out of the product, but unfortunately it's currently at lower storage density relative to lithium ion, but at lower price too.
The industry is searching for a way to recycle batteries, but it remains to be seen if that can be done effectively and economically.
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Charging rate (as we discussed early in this thread) is non-linear, with charging being faster when the batteries have less charge and slowing as you approach 100%. We think in terms of gas tanks where there'd never be a reason to stop before it's "full", but that won't be the paradigm IMHO when road tripping with an EV.
Charging rate is also dependent on the type of charger. A Level 2 charger (that you might put in your garage for overnight charging) is WAY too slow for road trip use. But a 250 kW or 350 kW (current max) charger will add charge MUCH faster.
What I think that Tesla has shown is that with planned charging and Superchargers, you might go from 10% to 80% in 20-30 minutes which is plenty to get you a few hundred miles of range. A few hundred miles gets you to the next charging station where you may want to get out and take care of food and/or bio breaks anyway.
But even a 20-minute stop to charge, requires changing a paradigm for many users-- and that's something they're unwilling to do.
There are many use cases of course, but for me the "fast stops" on my roadtrips are exactly the 5 minutes it takes to gas-n-go. The "long stops" on my trip are the 30 minutes it takes to gas up the car, cycle the kids through the bathroom, grab some food to eat in the car, and hit the accelerator. In no circumstances do my "long stops" on a family roadtrip, involve dining in a leisurely way that would take 45 minutes or more.
Not every trip we take is a long-haul roadtrip, of course. If we're only going somewhere 2-3 hours away, I consider that a Sunday drive, and stopping off for a leisurely lunch would not only enable time to charge, but also enjoy spending time at a (hopefully) pleasant destination point. In those cases, an EV would fit the needs.
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what is needed is either longer battery life or a much smaller battery so you could have a 2nd battery for double distance
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But even a 20-minute stop to charge, requires changing a paradigm for many users-- and that's something they're unwilling to do.
There are many use cases of course, but for me the "fast stops" on my roadtrips are exactly the 5 minutes it takes to gas-n-go. The "long stops" on my trip are the 30 minutes it takes to gas up the car, cycle the kids through the bathroom, grab some food to eat in the car, and hit the accelerator. In no circumstances do my "long stops" on a family roadtrip, involve dining in a leisurely way that would take 45 minutes or more.
Not every trip we take is a long-haul roadtrip, of course. If we're only going somewhere 2-3 hours away, I consider that a Sunday drive, and stopping off for a leisurely lunch would not only enable time to charge, but also enjoy spending time at a (hopefully) pleasant destination point. In those cases, an EV would fit the needs.
I'm the same way. An EV road trip would be a change for me.
But remember, you get a benefit for that paradigm change. The other paradigm change for most EV owners is that you NEVER have to fill up your car with gas again. You charge at home in your garage overnight, and never have to go out of your way to visit a filling station.
Would you make your rare and uncommon long-haul road trip a little more inconvenient to make 98% of your life more convenient?
I look at it like the decision to have a mountain cabin, a boat, or an RV. It's the type of thing that if you're using it constantly, it's worth it. If you're not using in nearly every damn weekend, it's better to rent. In this case it's the opposite. If you're constantly towing, or going on long-distance camping trips every weekend, or road trips twice a month, maybe an EV is not for you. If you're going on long-range road trips once a year? It might be worth it to just deal with the charging, or rent an ICEV for the road trip. Because you make your daily routine more convenient by having your "tank" full every morning when you wake up.
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But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient. Do others really chafe at this?
It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.
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I usually plan on stopping about every three hours when doing a long trip. I drove back from south Florida after baseball, it's about 8 hours, we stopped twice, had lunch once (fast food) and refueled. I guess in an EV with a 300 mile range were I topped off, I'd stop after 240 miles or so and charge back to 80%. That might take 20 minutes?
I could make it home from there. Other factors include cold weather and that EVs don't make great range at constant higher speeds. Forget towing of course. This scenario is one where fast chargers are readily available, right now they aren't so much.
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It's different and will take some time to feel normal but someday in the future it will be normal
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It's different and will take some time to feel normal but someday in the future it will be normal
I expect that someday in the future, individual driving on public roadways will be illegal and self-driving vehicles will be mandated by law. I guess to those poor suckers born into it, it'll feel normal.
And a FEW people might be lucky enough to have uncles with country places, that no one knows about...
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My guess is autonomous will be required on freeways, maybe not secondaries as much. And I can envision long trains of cars going along with little separation at high speeds. I don't know about the induction notion.
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But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient. Do others really chafe at this?
It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.
But, what if by charging at home is about half the cost of using gas? Then the gas will seem like the worse option.
Obviously, living in the hometown of Buc-Ees, I like dropping by the gas station more than a few times a week. They do have EV chargers at Buc-Ees now, at least at the one in Bastrop.
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But, what if by charging at home is about half the cost of using gas? Then the gas will seem like the worse option.
Obviously, living in the hometown of Buc-Ees, I like dropping by the gas station more than a few times a week. They do have EV chargers at Buc-Ees now, at least at the one in Bastrop.
Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference. I'd be all for that.
Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
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I am guessing towing might need fuel cells, which are a kind of EV. I don't know how these semi's really can work, I've never seen independent testing of them.
Otherwise, towing might need that Diesel plug in hybrid concept.
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I expect that someday in the future, individual driving on public roadways will be illegal and self-driving vehicles will be mandated by law. I guess to those poor suckers born into it, it'll feel normal.
And a FEW people might be lucky enough to have uncles with country places, that no one knows about...
Agreed.
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Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference. I'd be all for that.
Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
Totally agree with you, but I also think it doesn't have to solve every transportation problem to be successful. I currently own 3 diesel trucks, and will soon be adding a 4th. I also own three gas vehicles, and I will own an EV someday to fill a certain need.
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But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient. Do others really chafe at this?
It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.
My wife does. She HATES gassing up. Especially in the winter months. That was literally half the appeal of getting an EV to her.
For a couple of years there, she got pretty good at tricking me into gassing up for her. "Honey, we need three more bags of mulch for the area by the garden, can you run down to Lowes and get some." I have a sedan, so her Rav4 was the car to use to bring home larger items. I get in the car, pull out of the driveway, and then "Ding", the low gas light flips on......
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Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference. I'd be all for that.
Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
We hope.
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Worth watching.
University Place | Hybrid Future: Electric vs. Electrified Powertrains | PBS (https://www.pbs.org/video/hybrid-future-electric-vs-electrified-powertrains-zlmi9n/)
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The proposed EPA standard for fleets is 82 g/mile CO2. A gallon of gas is 8,887 g/co2 eq. So, a compliant vehicle (not fleet) would need to get 108 mpg, which is within the realm of plug in hybrids (for smaller vehicles). You might have to go full EV on larger vehicles to offset, but this doesn't drive every vehicle to full EV.
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Hydrogen and EVs could play a big role in trucking's future (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/17/hydrogen-and-evs-could-play-a-big-role-in-truckings-future.html)
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2024 Mercedes-Maybach EQS680 SUV Is One Glamorous Electric SUV (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43552495/2024-mercedes-maybach-eqs680-suv-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1_JXcfjuQGHWn3jSDVCTjbEIQ4YPQI7FgwEIA_z1vftxQx3tsxD6v0xLs)
For Mrs. Badger ...
(https://i.imgur.com/mKuO8nA.png)
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My wife does. She HATES gassing up. Especially in the winter months. That was literally half the appeal of getting an EV to her.
For a couple of years there, she got pretty good at tricking me into gassing up for her. "Honey, we need three more bags of mulch for the area by the garden, can you run down to Lowes and get some." I have a sedan, so her Rav4 was the car to use to bring home larger items. I get in the car, pull out of the driveway, and then "Ding", the low gas light flips on......
Are you secretly married to my wife? :)
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We don't drive much except on trips, so about every three weeks we make a Costco run and I gas it up, no biggee. On trips, I also has it up, she does it very rarely, but never complained about it. She lived on her own for a while of course.
I'm old enough to recall when "Self Service" was an option, and before that, it wasn't an option.
I know some states like NJ lack the option now.
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We could manage now with an EV, we have chargers on site, and four more at our local Kroger. I'd rent something for long trips.
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2024 Mercedes-Maybach EQS680 SUV Is One Glamorous Electric SUV (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43552495/2024-mercedes-maybach-eqs680-suv-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1_JXcfjuQGHWn3jSDVCTjbEIQ4YPQI7FgwEIA_z1vftxQx3tsxD6v0xLs)
For Mrs. Badger ...
(https://i.imgur.com/mKuO8nA.png)
I'd have to get into the banking industry. Like robbing one.
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2024 BMW i7 M70 xDrive Towers With 811 lb-ft of Electric Torque (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43592357/2024-bmw-i7-m70-xdrive/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1U5wULBGOfC3LkBiWDo2-IPSWk9LdEMfj0xIe0rGpp-_V9y1JzJDK4_rU)
(https://i.imgur.com/wuBjMjG.png)
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2025 Volkswagen ID.7 Promises More Power, Better Range Than ID.4 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43607443/2025-volkswagen-id7-specs-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR0z_iTmVnHtATjhSRm1FtjusN6Ow7goKrah_6FGKn-xVkyZkRhkK3NIOCU)
The ID.7's standard powertrain setup will be a single-motor, rear-wheel-drive configuration with a 282-horsepower electric motor. That's more powerful than the RWD ID.4's 201-hp motor, and in the U.S. the ID.7 will initially come standard with the same 77.0-kWh battery pack as the crossover. The company is targeting an EPA range of 300 miles, which is a bit behind the ID.7's main rivals which include the Tesla Model 3 (https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3) and the Hyundai Ioniq 6 (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-6).
A larger 86.0-kWh pack will be optional in other markets and VW claims a WLTP range of 435 miles with that option. That could translate to over 350 miles on the U.S. EPA cycle, although it's possible that Volkswagen will reserve this larger battery pack on our shores for only a more powerful (but less efficient) dual-motor all-wheel-drive variant.
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2024 BMW i7 M70 xDrive Towers With 811 lb-ft of Electric Torque (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43592357/2024-bmw-i7-m70-xdrive/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1U5wULBGOfC3LkBiWDo2-IPSWk9LdEMfj0xIe0rGpp-_V9y1JzJDK4_rU)
(https://i.imgur.com/wuBjMjG.png)
Ugly.
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I agree, the VW looks decent.
(https://i.imgur.com/KwBVy3G.png)
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The proposed EPA standard for fleets is 82 g/mile CO2. A gallon of gas is 8,887 g/co2 eq. So, a compliant vehicle (not fleet) would need to get 108 mpg, which is within the realm of plug in hybrids (for smaller vehicles). You might have to go full EV on larger vehicles to offset, but this doesn't drive every vehicle to full EV.
wait till the Auto industry lobby beats this up - proposed
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I think most in the industry is headed that way anyway.
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yes, but not on that aggressive timeline
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Most are ahead of that timeline, according to their plans. I doubt we see much resistance to it. Buick and Caddy claim they will be all EV by 2030.
And getting to 108 mpg fleet average is pretty doable in nine years if one EV sale counts as zero.
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Buick and Caddy don't make many trucks
is there a plan for an electric Escalade?
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How much CO2 does it take to make an EV?
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How much CO2 does it take to make an EV?
I read the energy balance doesn't net neutral before about 20,000 miles, as all that goes into making an EV takes a lot of CO2 by itself relative to an ICE car. After that point, it becomes "beneficial".
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(https://i.imgur.com/KDy6MXy.png)
Source: USEPA
Anyway, 22 MPG is nonsense. DOE begs to differ. Of course, the layers upon layers of the deep swamp don't talk to each other. The below is for light-duty vehicles.
FOTW# 1177, March 15, 2021: Preliminary Data Show Average Fuel Economy of New Light-Duty Vehicles Reached a Record High of 25.7 MPG in 2020 | Department of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light#:~:text=Preliminary data for EPA’s 2020 Automotive Trends Report,vehicles increased to 25.7 miles per gallon (MPG).)
**********************************
Through various research and sources, I've garnered enough information to state that it takes 20 tons (METRIC!!!) of CO2 to make an SUV battery.
It's nice to start out in a hole, eh? Make that up in 6 years, and you're close to buying a new one (or already did) or maybe needing a new battery.
This is so f'ing stupid. It infuriates me to no end.
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I read the energy balance doesn't net neutral before about 20,000 miles, as all that goes into making an EV takes a lot of CO2 by itself relative to an ICE car. After that point, it becomes "beneficial".
See above.
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For illustration, the Tesla Model 3 holds an 80 kWh lithium-ion battery. CO2 emissions for manufacturing that battery would range between 2400 kg (almost two and a half metric tons) and 16,000 kg (16 metric tons).1 Just how much is one ton of CO2 (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-ton-carbon-dioxide)? As much as a typical gas-powered car emits in about 2,500 miles of driving—just about the same weight as a great white shark!
(The battery on a larger SUV would of course be larger.) If the above is correct, a "typical" car emits about 4*5 metric tons of CO2 per year (12,500 miles). If we take the midpoint on battery CO2 generation, we'd have 7 metric tons to make the battery, or around 20,000 miles or so. Needless to say, there is a metric ton of misinformation out there.
How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Climate Portal (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=CO2 emissions for manufacturing,kg (16 metric)
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For illustration, the Tesla Model 3 holds an 80 kWh lithium-ion battery. CO2 emissions for manufacturing that battery would range between 2400 kg (almost two and a half metric tons) and 16,000 kg (16 metric tons).1 Just how much is one ton of CO2 (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-ton-carbon-dioxide)? As much as a typical gas-powered car emits in about 2,500 miles of driving—just about the same weight as a great white shark!
(The battery on a larger SUV would of course be larger.) If the above is correct, a "typical" car emits about 4*5 metric tons of CO2 per year (12,500 miles). If we take the midpoint on battery CO2 generation, we'd have 7 metric tons to make the battery, or around 20,000 miles or so. Needless to say, there is a metric ton of misinformation out there.
How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Climate Portal (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=CO2 emissions for manufacturing,kg (16 metric)
I'm very glad to be able to see through it.
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In such calculations, we're all dependent on "experts" of course, of one kind or another. Ostensibly, battery CO2 will drop as the grid becomes more CO2 neutral.
To the extent that really happens (and I think eliminating coal would make a difference).
Vogtle 3 is now on the grid albeit at reduced output. That's it except for V 4.
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GM expects entire EV lineup to qualify for full $7,500 tax credit (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2023/04/17/gm-expects-entire-ev-lineup-to-qualify-for-full-7500-tax-credit/)
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The 2023 Toyota Prius Prime Could Take 3 Weeks to Recharge (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/the-2023-toyota-prius-primes-battery-could-take-three-weeks-to-recharge/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2hnSV3ONw0qB5s0Nvj0S-xlW-sjXAzKJk9Aet8Zz9SCsOgUI0Lz3Gi2-U)
It has a solar panel on the roof for $610. MT claims it takes many years to pay that back.
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Polestar, the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, unveiled its latest model, the Polestar 4, a compact SUV that does not have a traditional rear windshield.
Instead, the car has a high-definition rearview camera that provides a detailed view of the surroundings to the driver.
The move is significant, even as some cars around the world are eliminating side view mirrors in favor of cameras and screens within the car’s interior to boost aerodynamics and EV range.
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Polestar, the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, unveiled its latest model, the Polestar 4, a compact SUV that does not have a traditional rear windshield.
Instead, the car has a high-definition rearview camera that provides a detailed view of the surroundings to the driver.
The move is significant, even as some cars around the world are eliminating side view mirrors in favor of cameras and screens within the car’s interior to boost aerodynamics and EV range.
That sounds good, until it doesn't work and then what?
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That sounds good, until it doesn't work and then what?
I figure if I'm passing everyone, I don't need a RVW.
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go like hell!
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Why Electric Vehicles Won't Break the Grid - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-electric-vehicles-wont-break-the-grid/)
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cause the grid is already broken?
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In California—the national leader in electric cars with more than 1 million plug-in vehicles—EV charging currently accounts for less than 1 percent of the grid’s total load during peak hours. In 2030, when the number of EVs in California is expected to surpass 5 million, charging is projected to account for less than 5 percent of that load, said Buckley, who described it as a “small amount” of added demand.
__________________________________
hah, similar to 4% of CO2 level increase
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I think it's manageable with some intelligent planning and load demand timing issues hashed out, which likely means it'll break the grid.
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I think it's manageable with some intelligent planning and load demand timing issues hashed out, which likely means it'll break the grid.
It's California, so "intelligent planning" is certainly out of the question. That said, we really haven't had any real grid problems since the Enron days. We had a little bit during all the wildfire season a year or three back, because high winds, power lines, and ultra-drought conditions tend to lead to bad outcomes.
The biggest problem IMHO is the "peak" problem. For EVs to really take over, there needs to be charging infrastructure for home renters and apartment-dwellers to charge overnight and balance that load. And I don't know what you can do for people who live somewhere that they only have access to on-street parking. But w/o that, they'll only be able to charge on public chargers, and aren't going to want to do that overnight.
I.e. at my office, the parking garage that I park in has a bunch of EV chargers on the third level. EV owners who can charge at home never park there, because (from what I understand) electricity rates are higher at those chargers than at home. But those who don't have that capability have to use them, and that puts load on the grid during peak hours. Especially on hot summer days when everyone is running A/C.
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EVs aren't really ready for low income renter types
I doubt the $7500 tax credit is worth while to most of them
need a charging converter that can be used on the 100' extension cord that can reach the curb or the alley.
what could go wrong?
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EVs aren't really ready for low income renter types
Southern California is full of high-income renter types.
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Folks unable to recharge in their own domiciles would pay roughly 3x the rate to recharge at a public site. Maybe the do it at work, or while shopping. Probably they would be among the last to transition. Poor folks who can barely afford a vehicle would be late adopters as well, perhaps having to buy used with batteries already down in capacity.
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it's nutz
some of those rentals at $4-5K a month or more don't have a garage as an option
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Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/sandy-munro-tesla-ev-solid-state-sodium-ion-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR004-T2fwd1O0Heswy7iNOfX3u0-XHgn34s1y3HLFM8tAyksa8d0pC03s4)
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All the new apartment buildings here have internal parking AND recharging stations. Most of the old ones do not. There are some old condo buildings around us with zero parking, it wasn't a thing in 1927. Places like NYC are mostly older apartment buildings with zero parking. (One reason they tend not to own cars.)
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Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/sandy-munro-tesla-ev-solid-state-sodium-ion-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR004-T2fwd1O0Heswy7iNOfX3u0-XHgn34s1y3HLFM8tAyksa8d0pC03s4)
Eh. It's a question of economics and scale, not proving it in a lab. If the economics work out, and I'm not saying they won't since this isn't my industry, it'll happen. If they don't, it won't.
But I've plenty nearly two decades hearing that SSD will kill off HDD, and the last decade hearing about all these wonderful things that work in the lab that are going to kill SSD. Yeah, economics and ability to scale are still the controlling factors.
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follow the $$$
perhaps the government's new big green deal will have some freshly printed $$$ in it to hand to battery makers and the EV industry to alter the economics
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I didn't see the 60 Minutes piece, and I didn't write the below, just cribbing it from a homebrewing forum where EVs were being discussed.
But I thought it would be interesting so I wanted to share. Could be a pretty massive place to easily and cost-effectively source lithium.
File this under the category of "Too Good to Be True", but I'd sure like it to be. Sort of like "Free Beer," only better. The source for this came from a CBS "60 Minutes" segment broadcast last night. The statistics are what I can remember from the program and may be not entirely accurate, but if not it's because of my fading memory rather than fan-boi exaggeration.
The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.
Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.
Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.
Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."
Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.
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The top two countries for lithium production are Chile and Australia. They sort of left that out.
(https://i.imgur.com/myZCtur.png)
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And lithium is not a rare element in the earth's crust, it's pretty abundant. From 2019 ...
Lithium, the periodic table’s lightest metal, is key for clean energy | Science News (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/search-new-geologic-sources-lithium-could-power-clean-future)
One of the oldest known Yellowstone craters, called McDermitt Caldera, filled with water, then later dried up, leaving behind a potential treasure trove of lithium-rich clay. Vancouver-based Lithium Americas Corp., which plans to begin mining operations at a site called Thacker Pass within the caldera in 2022, estimates that by 2025, the lake bed could provide as much as 25 percent of the world’s lithium.
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That's good news for sure.
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-clean-are-electric-cars-it-depends-4d1086d6?st=8hiw64u263xb2qx&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3c3LbqCQ_pb41-RHnnt496si-BZwrcsfvD75sN0UHpUOXeKXvbEPHtT2U)
Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years,
Maybe. I never bought Tesla stock (unfortunately) because I didn't think he could pull it off, and he largely did, but perhaps now he's distracted and they lack new competitive products even in the pipeline while the majors are offering new stuff.
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GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3c3LbqCQ_pb41-RHnnt496si-BZwrcsfvD75sN0UHpUOXeKXvbEPHtT2U)
Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years,
Maybe. I never bought Tesla stock (unfortunately) because I didn't think he could pull it off, and he largely did, but perhaps now he's distracted and they lack new competitive products even in the pipeline while the majors are offering new stuff.
I don't think Tesla was ever going to hold market share once the big players entered the market. I think we all know that eventually, whether it's 5 years from now or 50 years from now, EVs will dominate the market. And Tesla wasn't ever going to be able to scale production in the manner that the large manufacturers can.
That doesn't mean that Tesla can't remain a niche player in the market and make a profit but right now, I'm not sure what they plan to do to differentiate.
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Sure, and 11% of a growing percentage is still a decent market for them.
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Volkswagen Should Go Big and Sell Us the Tiny, Revolutionary ID2 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/volkswagen-id2-strategy-golf-gti-ev/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3W9QFAEMomhNgJig3a6G9bHrLfD9X4WN2lqDQyL0gNstw0uPScN9O_Hb0)
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11% for a niche player would be huge. I'm just not sure what kind of differentiation they're going to go for? If "premium" or "luxury" is going to be their brand, then they're a long way off in terms of styling, fit, and finish. You can do almost anything and be considered premium compared to the current EVs on the market, but once the major manufacturers have a full lineup, it's going to take a lot more to be considered premium. I still think they have a shot at it, but their first mover advantage is vanishing quickly.
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11% for a niche player would be huge. I'm just not sure what kind of differentiation they're going to go for? If "premium" or "luxury" is going to be their brand, then they're a long way off in terms of styling, fit, and finish. You can do almost anything and be considered premium compared to the current EVs on the market, but once the major manufacturers have a full lineup, it's going to take a lot more to be considered premium. I still think they have a shot at it, but their first mover advantage is vanishing quickly.
This.
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Yeah, I wouldn't buy Tesla stock here, but I've said that for years. I think the truck and van markets are going to be huge for EVs.
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I was talking to a friend the other day about the EV's and such. He mentioned that CA might enact a rule that semis need to be EV eventually?
What would a battery for that weigh? How much less cargo would it hold, in order to meet weight requirements?
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I was talking to a friend the other day about the EV's and such. He mentioned that CA might enact a rule that semis need to be EV eventually?
What would a battery for that weigh? How much less cargo would it hold, in order to meet weight requirements?
They have one proposed now. Tesla has delivered a semi truck with batteries. I've never seen independent testing of it. Another question is how long it would take to charge and how much electricity would need to be generated to power a normal "truck stop".
PepsiCo unveils fleet of all-electric Tesla semitrucks (kcra.com)
(https://www.kcra.com/article/pepsico-unveils-fleet-of-all-electric-tesla-semitrucks/43568339)
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Telsa is delivering Big Rigs starting this year. There are claims that some can haul a typical 80K load for 500 miles, but as we all know it varies depending on conditions. They have 300 mile models available too. They claim that the fuel savings will pay off in under 3 years. There is some kind of super-mega charger needed for these trucks, the batteries are north of 200 kw or something.
There is a stipulation in the federal law that EV trucks can haul a bit more than their ICE counterparts. Apparently the Feds will allow EV trucks to haul something like 82K lbs instead of the usual 80K lbs. Not sure how accurate this is.
For a lot of companies, they make the same run every day, 200-300 miles. Deliveries from warehouses to stores, etc. So supposedly this is a good use for these EV trucks.
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The other thing with Tesla is they are constantly evolving their battery. They have new battery chemistry and manufacturing out, reducing the cost of the battery and not using expensive materials like cobalt and nickel.
They also claim their autopilot is going to revolutionize self-driving cars. Elon has made numerous claims of how these cars will be FSD (full self driving) soon, although it keeps taking longer than he's anticipated.
I bougt some of their stock way, way back (over 5 years ago). I sold it when it increased by $200 a share, thought I did well. I don't know how much it would be worth now but I think it would be about 10X the price. I think I paid around $100 a share and sold at $300. Obviously it has split several times since then.
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I've never seen an independent test on these Tesla semis. We know EVs suffer loss of range of about 50% when towing something. The Hummer has a battery over 100 lkw.
It's pretty big, but 10,000 poundsish.
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Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging - (thebusinessdownload.com) (https://clean-energy.thebusinessdownload.com/debunking-ev-myths-emissions-related-to-batteries-charging/?fbclid=IwAR3iaZexXhAja7iZ8ZvOJzraIRn1l5ju2lcxokab0XuqF-cmEVp8wLsK0wM)
Maybe, one of course takes such articles with some circumspection. This doesn't say anything about charging time and the availability of commercial charging sotes.
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Fixing instead of replacing: Average age of vehicles on US roads hits a record high
https://apnews.com/article/cars-older-record-age-prices-shortages-supply-6e3273208399803a402e707e1393475c (https://apnews.com/article/cars-older-record-age-prices-shortages-supply-6e3273208399803a402e707e1393475c)
The average age of a passenger vehicle on the road hit a record 12.5 years this year, according to data gathered by S&P Global Mobility.
Since the pandemic struck three years ago, the average new vehicle has rocketed 24% to nearly $48,000 as of April, according to Edmunds.com. Typical loan rates on new-car purchases have ballooned to 7%, a consequence of the Federal Reserve’s aggressive streak of interest rate hikes to fight inflation.
It’s all pushed the national average monthly auto loan payment to $729 — prohibitively high for many.
Used vehicle prices, on average, have surged even more since the pandemic hit — up 40%, to nearly $29,000. With an average loan rate having reached 11%, the typical monthly used-vehicle payment is now $563.
The average vehicle age, which has been edging up since 2019, accelerated this year by a substantial three months. And while 12.5 years is the average, Campau noted, more vehicles are staying on the road for 20 years or more, sometimes with three or four successive owners.
In such cases, the third or fourth owner is getting a much older car than they would have in the past. Nearly 122 million vehicles on the road are more than a dozen years old, Campau said. S&P predicts that the number of older vehicles will keep growing until at least 2028.
S&P predicts that U.S. new vehicle sales will reach 14.5 million this year, from about 13.8 million last year. A big reason is that the supply at dealerships is finally growing.
Still, no one is predicting a return to pre-pandemic annual sales of around 17 million anytime soon.
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My Dad told me a car was finished at about 50,000 miles (back when). They sort of were without good maintenance. That isn't at all true today. If you change the oil routinely, any car can make 100 K pretty easily and still be pretty reliable, you would probably need brakes and a tune up of course and a thing might break.
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this trend could slow down the adoption of EVs cornsiderably
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I think we're in the "early adopter" phase on EVs still. But we're moving I suspect to folks willing to buy a lower priced EV as a 'second car', the one Dad drives to work while Mom retains her SUV. Some better funded companies will buy EV vans and pickups and likely find them good investments. My guess is about a quarter of us think we won't EVER buy an EV no way no matter what.
And yes, the shift will be slower than many want if half the cars by 2050 are ICE Vs.
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EV vans and pickups and likely find them good investments
if subsidized by government tax breaks
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I doubt a company that operates say 100 delivery vans for intercity delivery needs tax breaks for it to pay out. The same could be true for larger service companies with F150s.
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you think total cost of ownership will be less for the EVs??
many accounting depts agonize over fleet costs
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CO2 (R744) heat pumps in electric vehicles (EVs) are highly efficient at ambient temperature below 0°C (32°F), according to Nina Piesch, a Research Assistant from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU).
Piesch based this comment on a research paper – “R744 heat pump solution for electric vehicles,” a survey of previous research – that she presented at the 10th International Institute of Refrigeration (IIR) conference, held in Ohrid, North Macedonia, April 27–29.
CO2 heat pumps boast a higher efficiency in electric vehicles because of their increased suction vapor density, which is a significant advantage in colder climates, she said.
https://r744.com/co2-heat-pumps-found-to-offer-high-efficiency-at-low-ambient-temperature-in-electric-vehicles/ (https://r744.com/co2-heat-pumps-found-to-offer-high-efficiency-at-low-ambient-temperature-in-electric-vehicles/)
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"colder climates"; didn't read
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you think total cost of ownership will be less for the EVs??
many accounting depts agonize over fleet costs
Yes.
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I'm not cornvinced
I suppose they have leasing programs
Purchase price being more than gassers and then trade-in depreciation would seem to be more for EVs.
Electric charging isn't free, but even savings from gasoline is limited because of limited miles per day.
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Maybe the operative term is "will be". I think the math is close now for an intracity van delivery vehicle.
EV vs. Gas: Which Cars Are Cheaper to Own? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/)
If we take the truck as a stand in for delivery van, their math shows it's cheaper to buy the EV. If you recharge at night, you'd get a break on the rates. And this is a 3 uear calculation. EVs won't need new brakes for a much longer period of time, nor oil changes etc. The worn out battery thing might be an issue.
After three years the grand totals give some insight into the question, "are EVs cheaper?" Based on fuel, maintenance costs, and depreciation over a three-year period here's what we've found for the cost-of-ownership of our subject vehicles:
Hyundai Kona: $19,385
Hyundai Kona Electric: $21,426
Ford F-150: $26,505
Ford F-150 Lightning: $23,840
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I suppose buying a 3 year old Lightning coming off a lease with low miles would be OK. If I planned to own it for another 3 years.
How are 6-10 year old Teslas holding up for value and battery issues?
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Tesla's apparently hold up pretty well on resale value.
Tesla Model 3 Depreciation (caredge.com) (https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/depreciation?y=2&p=51312&o=5&m=12000)
And their batteries are SAID to lose about 2% per year in range. This is variable, and I think other battery packs run down faster.
How Long Does a Tesla Battery Last? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/)
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surprising
to me anyway
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And the calculations are ... somewhat dubious, as they note. I'm interested in the properties of the new EV delivery vans coming out. The stop and go nature of them would seem ideal for electric motors.
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I'm a bit surprised FedEx or UPS hasn't adopted
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They are in the process, but the inventory doesn't yet exist in sufficient numbers.
Everything you need to know about Amazon’s electric delivery vans from Rivian (https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/everything-you-need-to-know-about-amazons-electric-delivery-vans-from-rivian)
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BrightDrop: All-Electric Delivery System | General Motors (gm.com) (https://www.gm.com/brightdrop)
This is a neat concept I think.
BrightDrop Trace
The Trace is an electrified and connected pallet developed to transport goods and services over short distances – for example, from the delivery vehicle to the customer’s front door. The Trace helps reduce package touch points, operational costs, and physical strain on delivery drivers. It also helps reduce congestion by allowing delivery companies to limit curbside package operations and on-street parking and enables better tracking of packages from the sorting center to the front door. In a pilot with FedEx in Toronto, couriers using the Trace were able to deliver 25 percent more packages per day. Couriers shared feedback that the Traces were easy to maneuver and reduced physical strain. The Trace offers electric hub motors capable of matching walking speeds, 23 total cu. ft. of space, and a payload capacity of 200 lbs.
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16 New Electric van models coming to the U.S. (2023-2026) (topelectricsuv.com) (https://topelectricsuv.com/featured/future-electric-van-models-usa/)
(https://i.imgur.com/VBKelGu.png)
This would be nice at airports I think.
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Honda Justifies Its EV Strategy, Believes Europe’s Infrastructure Won’t Be Ready Until 2040 Or 2050 | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/05/honda-justifies-its-ev-strategy-believes-that-infrastructure-in-europe-wont-be-well-developed-until-2040-or-2050/#Echobox=1684265903)
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I'm a bit surprised FedEx or UPS hasn't adopted
Well, even if they adopt, they have a lot of rolling stock already in their fleet. Much of it on NG and I found an article about adding renewable NG as an option (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ups-environment-natural-gas/ups-hits-the-gas-on-greener-delivery-truck-fleet-idUSKBN1WO1LX) which emits CO2 but is part of the natural carbon cycle (unlike fossil fuels) so shouldn't add NET CO2 to the environment. They're not just going to throw away the [working] old trucks and replace them en masse. So adoption would likely be slow burn as the older trucks age out.
The FedEx/UPS fleets aren't like rental car fleets or corporate car fleets where they want to replace everything on a 2-3 year cycle.
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we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made
I'd guess UPS or FedEx could get some good marketing from simply saying they are going to EVs as they change out the fleet.
They wouldn't need to give real figures as to how many or how long it might take
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A lot of this is indeed marketing and PR, maybe most of it, no doubt. Delivery companies also need the charging infrastructure to be installed at their base.
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge a Tesla? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1QBw1gedK9tnw2xD6deQ43nPKuBv9O5MjXPc7iY0fSBG1NqFwX-t1gIZg)
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The Erosion of Tesla's EV Market Share Is Happening Now (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-erosion-of-teslas-ev-market-share-is-happening-now-1850440656?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1684255488&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LnQ2Xr848hciynNfcUqMZas05oiZRP79CE1FlEYumtKIaagnVDgGtgY0)
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no surprise
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we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made
The best thing anyone can do to reduce their carbon footprint is simple: die. The second best thing: don't have kids (https://www.vhemt.org/).
But if you want to stay alive or operate a company, you have to look at the economics. And a transition to an EV fleet may be economical, whereas a wholesale short-term replacement to an EV fleet will not be, and in the grand scheme of things, will only make a tiny at most difference to anything.
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well, THAT's a shitty attitude! ;)
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we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made
I'd guess UPS or FedEx could get some good marketing from simply saying they are going to EVs as they change out the fleet.
They wouldn't need to give real figures as to how many or how long it might take
:57:
I got a good laugh out of that one.
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We all know larger companies spend money on PR. They can buy "a few" EV vans even if the equation goesn't work and publicize it as how they are "stewards" of blah blah. So, maybe they buy 100 such vans, it gets in the news, but they have 10,000 ICE vans (and will for years). There also is "reverse PR" of course, I've seen memes of an ICE van labeled a TESLA service vehicle, and I'm sure they exist today as well.
The sole reason I'd buy an EV would be my calculation it's the best vehicle for us, period. That includes tax credits of course. a thing when will mostly benefit people of means who could buy one anyway. Regular folks will be buying used or leasing ICE vehicles until the equation really is unbalanced.
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2024 Chevy Silverado EV's EPA-Estimated Range Rises to 450 Miles (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43941387/2024-chevy-silverado-electric-truck-range-450-miles/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR0uyHg_0CE_ET29iEVsE-JaZzUBkP88zLk0sYzHfuUx-s7Xe4FDXAkRWKM)
Pricing for the fleet-oriented 2024 Silverado EV Work Truck hasn't been made official. However, Chevy is currently taking orders with refundable $100 reservations on its consumer site, which also lists the WT's starting price at $41,595.
Imagine a delivery van using that chassis.
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apparently, GM can't imagine it
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GM has those Bright Drop vans using the same Ultium batteries, but different chassis. I'm pretty sure they will come out with vans based on the truck chassis fairly soon, same with Ford etc. If EV vans end up costing around $50 K I think they will be a hit. They could be $40 K because they'd be stripped down relative to work trucks, maybe.
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Tested: 2023 Chevrolet Bolt vs. 2023 Volkswagen Jetta Sport (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a43826595/2023-chevrolet-bolt-ev-vs-2023-volkswagen-jetta-sport-compared/)
We humans aren't keen on being told how to live our lives. We like to do what we want when we want. And that's what the automobile has provided since its early days: the ability to travel freely. Like so many car buyers, though, we feel the pressure to at least consider the purchase of a tailpipe-free automobile. Within the next decade, shoppers looking to buy a new or secondhand car will face quite possibly the toughest automotive choice of their lives: whether to go internal combustion or electric.
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Ford's capital markets day seeks to convince Wall Street of EV plans (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/21/ford-capital-markets-convince-wall-street-skeptics.html)
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The Cadillac Escalade IQ Will Be a Gigantic Electric SUV (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43960660/the-cadillac-escalade-iq-will-be-a-gigantic-electric-suv/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1dGpsMJfsJm-SLGJui2Kg8AKx0v6aAyRFYAqiu-Q8Gpp90vBgj-v0fuC4)
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Hyundai XCIENT Class 8 Truck Gives Hydrogen a Place to Shine (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43827451/hyundai-xcient-class-8-fuel-cell-semi-truck-drive/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2URIE-Nn8IyNfSyK1Mxgs-U2A8ptjAV9RdwzZzNVI9APT93ur45objsw0)
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Tested: 2023 Cadillac Lyriq AWD Pumps Out More Electrons (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43893925/2023-cadillac-lyriq-600e4-awd-by-the-numbers/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2RuUfnIxySYwYcfc3Y77qCpfG5GhnjI20Sn6RDgE9P_cFzCl_bjXa2hkg)
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U.S.-Spec 2025 VW ID.Buzz Hits Nostalgia Points but Is So Modern (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44067694/2025-vw-id-buzz-us-spec-revealed/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR2Z4m75JBW-pd58Rw3amLlkTHpeqcLaqnCw0oFmv_toghqhrmUXq1UFjVE)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ry48vZF.png)
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Not So “Green” Technology: The Complicated Legacy of Rare Earth Mining (harvard.edu) (https://hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/)
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Why using rare metals to clean up the planet is no cheap fix | New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24933190-400-why-using-rare-metals-to-clean-up-the-planet-is-no-cheap-fix/)
He is neither a climate sceptic nor a fan of inaction. But as the world moves to adopt a target of net-zero carbon emissions (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2222386-could-your-home-be-net-zero-carbon-the-radical-plan-to-make-it-happen/) by 2050, Pitron worries about the costs. The figures in his book The Rare Metals War are stark. Changing the energy model means doubling the production of rare metals about every 15 years, mostly to satisfy demand for non-ferrous magnets and lithium-ion batteries. “At this rate,” writes Pitron, “over the next 30 years we… will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years.”
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EVs Tested: 2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs. 2023 Genesis Electrified GV70 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44068042/2023-cadillac-lyriq-vs-2023-genesis-electrified-gv70-by-the-numbers/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR04LaZY1-PJwC0M2w9V3NHi3L4ZLaZiqQVXVCViipnt-ke6D0bcQr2_5Qc)
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2023 Ford F-150 Lightning XLT Yearlong Test: Off to a Bumpy Start with "RangeLiar" (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-arrival-range-anxiety/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2iJJQtcs_JpoElUd8RlazBUkTusKd-jig1M8ihb5UE2buCJl_pG1L_TFQ)
Not a good look at all...
Nickname: "RangeLiar"
For the first few weeks I made a point of noting the range estimation before various trips and then noting the range remaining at the end of the trip. Every trip consumed more miles of estimated range than miles traveled. Remember when you screwed up as a kid, deflected blame, and your parents told you, "It's not what you did, it's lying about it that disappointed us"? I'm that parent here, and in this age of machine learning and artificial intelligence, I'm disappointed that Ford is either unable or unwilling to give me the bad news about how far this truck will actually travel on a charge—especially when destinations are entered into the native navigation system. And yes, it was late winter, and we were running some heat (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/road-tripping-in-our-long-term-electric-test-cars/). But we're also operating 20 miles from Ford's engineering headquarters, so this climate should be no surprise to the truck's computers. When pressed on the subject, Ford admitted programming the system to present EPA best-case range when charging via Level 2 chargers like we've got at home and the office, but an upcoming Intelligent Range feature coming via over-the-air update (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ota-tracker-software-update-electric-pickup-truck/) might soon change this.
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2025 Volvo EX30 Is a Small SUV That Exemplifies the EV Ethos (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44099670/2025-volvo-ex30-revealed/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR01sTjIQSCGkvDDT-NOK1B3lFtaFvpnEdpmiDa_Ep8PRu3WUFj5vOZ2TuQ)
- The 2025 Volvo EX30 (https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/ex30) debuts as the brand's smallest electric SUV, slotting below the C40 Recharge (https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/c40-recharge) and XC40 Recharge (https://www.caranddriver.com/volvo/xc40-recharge) in size and price.
- Starting at $36,145, the 268-hp rear-drive EX30 has a claimed range of 275 miles; a punchier, albeit pricier, 422-hp all-wheel-drive model is available too.
- The EX30's interior boasts a single 12.3-inch touchscreen, myriad recycled materials, and a full-width sound bar on the dashboard.
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That's pretty ugly.
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Move to electric vehicles could save nearly 90,000 lives in US by 2050, study says
By Jen Christensen, CNN
If gas guzzlers disappeared from US car lots by 2035 and were replaced by zero-emissions vehicles – essentially, electric cars, trucks and SUVs – the nation would see 89,300 fewer premature deaths by 2050, according to a new report from the American Lung Association. But the country would also have to move more toward clean noncombustion electricity – like wind, solar, hydro, geothermal and nuclear – to see the full health benefit.
The report, published Wednesday, says that people in the US would have 2.2 million fewer asthma attacks and 10.7 million fewer lost workdays, and the country would net $978 billion in public health benefits with the move to cleaner vehicles and a cleaner power supply.
The “Driving to Clean Air: Health Benefits of Zero-Emission Cars and Electricity” report uses an analysis of data from the association’s March 2022 report “Zeroing in on Healthy Air.”
Transportation is the leading source of air pollution in the US and the largest creator of carbon pollution that drives the climate crisis, the US Environmental Protection Agency has found. And exposure to any kind of pollution hurts our health: Studies show that it significantly raises the risk of premature death or chronic conditions like asthma, heart problems and even depression and Alzheimer’s.
About 120 million people in the US live in areas with unhealthy air, according to an American Lung Association report published this year.
Low-income communities and communities of color, regardless of income, are disproportionately affected by this health threat. These communities often live closer to major sources of air pollution like major highways and power plants, studies show.
“This transition to zero-emission technologies is critical as a whole but especially critical in making sure that we’re targeting policies and investments and incentive programs so that all communities can take advantage of these health benefits and more healthier transportation choices,” Barrett said.
The switch to zero-emission vehicles would mean a massive change for the US. Although the number of people who drive them is growing, just 4.6% of cars sold in the US in 2021 were electric, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.
The switch would require an investment up-front, says Dr. Jason West, who studies pollution research and its impact on public health, but the benefits may well exceed the costs of those actions in the first place.
“There are huge health benefits to be gained by switching broadly to electric vehicles,” said West, a professor in the Department of Environmental Sciences and Engineering at the Gillings School of Global Public Health at the University of North Carolina, who was not involved with the new report. “The other part of the report says that this positive health result comes when it is coupled with noncombustion electricity generation. So that’s an important part, too. It’s not just switching to electric vehicles but providing the extra electricity needed for those electric vehicles. So that would be renewables, wind and solar or possibly nuclear.”
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/health/electric-vehicles-save-nearly-90-000-lives/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/health/electric-vehicles-save-nearly-90-000-lives/index.html)
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Visualising the growth of the electric car industry
Every three in 20 cars sold worldwide in 2022 were electric, with more than half of them sold in China alone.
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347396956_2044934439192498_3186419486510753065_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7VB0nhe2YvEAX9Qw42u&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCxdWMXsMZ_Jcdhe5qFK12g-rn5agN2BJL6m08Qh72rkw&oe=6487BEE5)
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What Tesla EV charging deals with Ford, GM mean for the industry (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/09/tesla-ford-gm-ev-charging-partnerships.html)
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Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a legislative proposal into law on May 13 that will make all electric vehicle (EV) owners in the state responsible for paying a $200 annual fee, The Dallas Morning News reported.
The law, which will take effect on Sept. 1, will also require new electric vehicle (EV) owners to pay a one-time fee of $400 to register their cars in addition to the $200 yearly toll.
The aim of the new law is to recuperate some of the tax money the state has lost through EV owners not purchasing pricey gasoline.
For example, since a Tesla doesn’t run on gas, its owner won’t pay the typical taxes that the owner of a gas-fueled car does when stopping at the pump.
Texas uses these fees for road and highway repairs and sometimes for school improvement.
The state already has over 200,000 EVs on the road, with more than 30,000 EVs added this year, meaning the bill will garner around $38 million per year for the state’s highway repair fund, according to The Dallas Morning News.
EVs are beneficial to the planet and to consumers because they slash gas bills, reduce air and noise pollution, and produce less planet-overheating gas pollution. Some fear this new bill will disincentivize Texas residents from purchasing EVs.
UT-Austin transportation engineering professor Kara Kockelman told KVUE that the bill is indicative of Texas’ full support for the oil and gas industry.
“Texas is really behind the curve on trying to do the right thing by the environment. And so, that’s embarrassing, I think, for all of us,” she said.
Consumer Reports suggested that the price of Abbott’s new annual fee of $200 is too high. The company found that a fee of $71 would be the “maximum justifiable EV fee” in Texas.
Consumer Reports policy analyst Dylan Jaff also said that the bill does not solve the gap in funding road work.
“Consumers should not be punished for choosing a cleaner, greener car that saves them money on fuel and maintenance,” he said in a release. “The fees proposed in this bill will establish an inequitable fee scale for EV owners and will not provide a viable solution to the long-standing issue of road funding revenue.”
MYEV.com listed at least 18 U.S. states other than Texas that charge EV owners annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200 per year. If your state is considering charging EV owners fees, contact your local representatives and let your voice be heard.
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How heavy electric vehicles could pose safety risk for other drivers (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-heavy-electric-vehicles-could-pose-safety-risk-for-other-drivers/ar-AA1cvzZr)
Saw this on the local news last night.
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Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a legislative proposal into law on May 13 that will make all electric vehicle (EV) owners in the state responsible for paying a $200 annual fee, The Dallas Morning News reported.
The law, which will take effect on Sept. 1, will also require new electric vehicle (EV) owners to pay a one-time fee of $400 to register their cars in addition to the $200 yearly toll.
The aim of the new law is to recuperate some of the tax money the state has lost through EV owners not purchasing pricey gasoline.
For example, since a Tesla doesn’t run on gas, its owner won’t pay the typical taxes that the owner of a gas-fueled car does when stopping at the pump.
Texas uses these fees for road and highway repairs and sometimes for school improvement.
The state already has over 200,000 EVs on the road, with more than 30,000 EVs added this year, meaning the bill will garner around $38 million per year for the state’s highway repair fund, according to The Dallas Morning News.
EVs are beneficial to the planet and to consumers because they slash gas bills, reduce air and noise pollution, and produce less planet-overheating gas pollution. Some fear this new bill will disincentivize Texas residents from purchasing EVs.
UT-Austin transportation engineering professor Kara Kockelman told KVUE that the bill is indicative of Texas’ full support for the oil and gas industry.
“Texas is really behind the curve on trying to do the right thing by the environment. And so, that’s embarrassing, I think, for all of us,” she said.
Consumer Reports suggested that the price of Abbott’s new annual fee of $200 is too high. The company found that a fee of $71 would be the “maximum justifiable EV fee” in Texas.
Consumer Reports policy analyst Dylan Jaff also said that the bill does not solve the gap in funding road work.
“Consumers should not be punished for choosing a cleaner, greener car that saves them money on fuel and maintenance,” he said in a release. “The fees proposed in this bill will establish an inequitable fee scale for EV owners and will not provide a viable solution to the long-standing issue of road funding revenue.”
MYEV.com listed at least 18 U.S. states other than Texas that charge EV owners annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200 per year. If your state is considering charging EV owners fees, contact your local representatives and let your voice be heard.
I mean, Texas leads all US states in renewable energy generation due to aggressive buildouts in wind and solar, but let's ignore all that while we bash O&G.
10 States That Produce the Most Renewable Energy | Best States | U.S. News (usnews.com)
(https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/these-states-use-the-most-renewable-energy)Back to the point, though, Texans pay $.20/gallon in taxes and the majority of that goes to road maintenance. So some kind of tax on EVs that are using the same road infrastucture makes sense. I'm not sure what the right amount is, but it's certainly more than zero$.
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Back to the point, though, Texans pay $.20/gallon in taxes and the majority of that goes to road maintenance. So some kind of tax on EVs that are using the same road infrastucture makes sense. I'm not sure what the right amount is, but it's certainly more than zero$.
So, a penny per mile then, if you get 20 miles/gallon.
The EV tax should then be somewhere between $100 and $300.
The $200 is fine.
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This has to happen at some point, or we cease to have a "user tax" on road expenses.
Maybe a state could add say a $7500 tax on EVs when purchased.
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the tax man is crafty
he will get his and then some
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The Beatles - Taxman - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMdcE8jdz70)
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(https://i.imgur.com/smGOZtd.png)
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Converting gas-powered cars to EVs is a booming business (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/16/converting-gas-powered-cars-to-evs-is-a-booming-business.html)
If I owned an older "restomod" something, I'd consider this as an option. It would be car rarely driven more than 50 miles.
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glad I read the article. I was going to blurt out something negative....
1976 BMW 2002 or 1976 Porsche 914 would be perfect for that conversion
small light with small quiet engines
I immediately thought 1970 Chevelle SS with the 460 or big block Mustang or challenger
those could be done, but would lose the character of the sound of the cammed big block, the smell of the burnt gasoline and the use of the clutch and 4-speed tranny
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I agree, I wouldn't convert something with a burly noisy 8 cylinder at all.
Maybe a 914 or 924 or something, probably not an MG or Austin Healy though. If I had an old Chevy S10 maybe, but it wouldn't be worth the cost.
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perhaps I'll convert my golf cart some day
I doubt it
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I'd consider a golf cart depending on price, if your gas engine gives up. No oil chainges.
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I change oil once a year in the spring. One quart, no filter
seems crazy that a quart of oil is over $7
it sips gasoline - I play maybe 80 rounds a season, 10 - 12 gallons
course charges $55/season to charge an electric
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Our Evolution cart is 2.5 years old and it's showing some signs of battery wear.
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my yamaha is a 2002
never been in the shop
purrs like a kitten
I've replaced the battery twice
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my yamaha is a 2002
never been in the shop
purrs like a kitten
I've replaced the battery twice
Golf is best played walking.
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Golf is best played walking.
On an executive course in California.
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Golf is best played walking.
lugging the beer is a chore
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On an executive course in California.
I walk full length courses too.
Unfortunately today will be in a cart. The course design has some VERY long green-to-tee distances as it's built through a neighborhood, has to go under streets, etc. The routing sucks.
lugging the beer is a chore
Only if you carry. With a push-cart it's not bad at all. I often have a couple waters and gatorades, and have a hidden cooler that fits in a side pocket in the bag where I can carry a six-pack of cans.
I'm not lazy enough yet to get a motorized cart that follows me around though... Or maybe I'm just too cheap.
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I have an old pull cart from the 90s for when the course is too wet and carts aren't allowed
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Dodge fans have been patiently awaiting the big reveal of the next generation of muscle cars that will take up the mantle since the 2023 Charger and Challenger will be the final versions to come equipped with a V8 engine before switching over to electric.
On Wednesday, August 17th 2022 during Dodge’s Speed Week, they finally unveiled the long-awaited fully-electric muscle car concept, the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT that is often being likened to that of a Hellcat. One of them being able to match it in terms of noise with an “exhaust” that is able to reach 126 decibels, the same volume of a supercharged Hellcat V8 engine.
Named the “fratzonic chambered exhaust”, Dodge’s simulated revving is generated through an amplifier and tuning chamber found near the rear end of the Charger.
Listen to how the EV muscle car sounds below:
https://www.powernationtv.com/post/dodge-claims-its-electric-charger-concepts-exhaust-is-as-loud-as-a-hellcats?fbclid=IwAR0tfIbv8RZfOI_WFyV-pLGNivzND-D56UnRqhLo09jr8_dXKvu0IWn4e9k (https://www.powernationtv.com/post/dodge-claims-its-electric-charger-concepts-exhaust-is-as-loud-as-a-hellcats?fbclid=IwAR0tfIbv8RZfOI_WFyV-pLGNivzND-D56UnRqhLo09jr8_dXKvu0IWn4e9k)
According to Dodge spokesperson David Elshoff, the noise is not sampled or based on sounds from the EV Charger’s motors. Instead it is generated to mimic the “cadence from a Hemi V8.” He also adds that it generates “screams” at higher revs, which could be the reason why Dodge named its 800-volt electric drivetrain, “Banshee.” The sound is then adjusted via a transducer depending on the Charger’s throttle position, speed, load, etc., that is then pushed through the amplifier and out of the exhaust to result in the appropriate sound.
The end result resembles something of a robotic growling panther, which is more noise than some of its current EV competitors. All that is left now is to sit back and watch how muscle car enthusiasts and Dodge fans respond to it.
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The marketing of the term "Hemi" has been effective.
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there's GOT to be something hemispherical about the electric motor in that thing
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FACT OF THE DAY:
Global sales of electric vehicles (EVs) in 2020 increased by 39% year on year to 3.1 million units.
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An example of lousy reporting in my opinion, from Fox News:
Overall, the average cost of an EV was $64,338, while the average cost of a compact gas-powered car was $26,101 as of last year, according to Kelley Blue Book. In addition, the U.S. Department of Energy reported that the average range of model year 2021 gasoline vehicles was 403 miles, compared to the median 234-mile range of model year 2021 EVs.
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The marketing of the term "Hemi" has been effective.
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357086155_644170937761720_1315017937139504255_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=CPxJivM-tiEAX8ueIjm&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAdnUJ83Ii2CKNL4QI5w9F9vb4MjucVYxxV2KkOT7nM2w&oe=64A507E8)
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https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/worlds-first-fully-electric-flying-car-approved-by-faa-accepting-preorders
Flying vehicle.
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Husker engineers earn grant to protect military bases against EV-based attacks
DOD PROJECT TO ADDRESS SPECIFIC THREATS POSED BY ELECTRIC VEHICLES
https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/husker-engineers-earn-grant-to-protect-military-bases-against-ev-based/ (https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/husker-engineers-earn-grant-to-protect-military-bases-against-ev-based/)
With the aid of $3.6 million in funding from the U.S. Army’s Engineer Research and Development Center, research teams at Nebraska and Auburn University are working to safeguard the entry points of military bases against the specific threats posed by hostile-driven EVs.
“EVs are a different kind of an animal compared to gasoline vehicles,” said Stolle, assistant director of the Nebraska-housed Midwest Roadside Safety Facility and a research assistant professor of mechanical and materials engineering.
For starters, an EV battery so outweighs the engine of a gas-powered vehicle that the EV itself will often carry hundreds or even thousands of extra pounds in total. An EV carries that weight differently, too, with a center of gravity lower than its conventional counterpart. Despite the added heft, an electric motor also produces torque almost immediately after foot meets pedal, lending it a zero-to-60 acceleration that puts most internal combustion engines to shame.
The Nebraska team will be accounting for each of those factors, plus others, in refining barriers that ring the perimeters of U.S. military bases and protect the gated checkpoints used by friendly vehicles. Stolle said those passive barriers — whose designs can range from guardrails to post-like bollards — must be engineered to withstand high-speed ramming from EVs, which make up a growing percentage of the world’s automotive fleet.
“While they have many similarities to traditional vehicle counterparts, they’re not the same, and they will change the way that we design roadside hardware,” said Stolle, whose Nebraska team will receive $2.2 million of the funding over four years. “And it is beneficial for all of us to be prepared for a transition of any volume of our vehicle fleet toward electrification, because it means that we’re going to have to design to accommodate a broader swath of possibilities.
“The current study is a bedrock establishment of all the parameters necessary to ensure that (military) bases are able to handle vehicles of all types, whether gasoline or electric or even new technologies which have yet to be created.”
To devise and test their designs, the team — which includes Ronald Faller, research professor and director of the Midwest Roadside Safety Facility; Joshua Steelman, associate professor; and others — will employ a combination of the digital and the tangible. The former will include the most sophisticated modeling and simulations of classical mechanics on the planet. Some of those in-house computer simulations can model general vehicular dynamics, especially the ways that the forces acting on any one component will influence the behavior of another.
The engineers are also receiving support from Ansys, whose software can simulate the energy transfer of a collision by effectively isolating certain variables, then integrating the results into larger models on a millisecond-by-millisecond basis. Another donation, from Caresoft Global, will provide the team with comprehensive modeling specific to EVs.
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/04/toyota-claims-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/04/toyota-claims-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars
The part about changing in 10 minutes is hard to believe but if it proves true would be a major break through
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Yes to both
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https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
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Lamborghini CEO Stephan Winkelmann told the German newspaper Welt that it has sold its remaining production run of fully gas-powered models and will now focus on electrification.
The brand’s future lineup will include plug-in hybrid versions of its Aventador and Huracan supercars and a plug-in hybrid Urus SUV. Lamborghini plans to launch its first all-electric vehicle later this decade.
The decision to embrace electrification was driven by tightening emissions regulations. The company aims to maintain high-performance standards while reducing its carbon footprint. The first plug-in hybrid model is expected to be released in late 2023.
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https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
The title is obviously misleading, but the point is valid. Demand is no longer greater than supply of EVs, but interest is increasing as is sales.
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Cox says that EV sales will break the 1 million mark for the first time in 2023, with sales reportedly accounting for about 6.5 percent of the entire auto market in the U.S. so far.
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https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1678623318927179776
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Battery Troubles for Our Ford F-150 Lightning Lariat (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-lariat-yearlong-review-update-6-battery-issue?slide=6)
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"The large amount of carbon emissions associated with producing—and even charging—electric vehicles means the cars might not even help the environment, according to a new report.
While electric vehicles do not produce tailpipe emissions, the materials that must be mined, processed, and refined to build the cars produce considerably more carbon dioxide than those used to build their gas-powered counterparts. In many cases, meanwhile, the power used to charge electric vehicles comes from natural gas and coal.
Those emissions, Manhattan Institute senior fellow Mark Mills argues in a Wednesday report, "substantially offset reductions from avoiding gasoline." Additionally, driving an electric vehicle instead of a gas-powered one "could even lead to a net increase in emissions."
https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1679899352003751936?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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perhaps EV chargers should only be installed on the green grid?
or at least, no coal plant generation
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When NASA gives up on a project, it’s time for others to take notice.
The agency is best known for space travel. But it funds and undertakes research and development for aeronautics, including commercial aviation. NASA, after all, is the acronym for National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Boeing, and Airbus, benefitted from NASA research in the past. NASA currently is working with Boeing on the transonic truss brace wing concept (TTBW) that could redefine how airplanes are designed and look as early as the end of this decade.
So, what has NASA abandoned? Late last month, the agency pulled the plug on the X-57 electric airplane before the first flight. NASA concluded that the electric and battery technology for the X-57, a small airplane, is too dangerous. NASA wouldn’t even authorize test flights.
It’s worth noting that LNA’s Bjorn Fehrm, an aerospace engineer, called bullshit on electric airplanes in his first of a series of articles way back on June 30, 2017. Billions of dollars have funded some 200 companies pursuing electric airplanes. This is money that could have been invested in expanding production of Sustainable Aviation Fuel, the leading alternative of alternative energy projects.
The current, continued frenzy over alternative energy vehicles is like the 1980s dot com frenzy. And just as the dot com boom went bust, the day is coming soon when the alternative energy book will go bust, too.
Speaking of NASA, and Boeing
Historically, when NASA cooperates with a company, the technology is owned by NASA and available to any company that wants it.
But the relationship between Boeing and NASA for the TTBW is different. Way back in May we were told that in this case, Boeing will retain the Intellectual Property rights to the TTBW. The NASA contract, for $425m, was a way to dodge the old government subsidy allegations that became part of the 17-year complaints filed with the World Trade Organization by the European Union against Boeing. Previous NASA relationships were cited among the complaints filed by the EU.
The case was filed in response to the complaint filed by the US government over illegal subsidies for Airbus. The WTO found both sides violated WTO rules. The US came out on top, so to speak. The WTO authorized higher “fines” for the US to impose on Europe was authorized to impose on the US. When Joe Biden became president, the US and EU agreed to suspend the tariffs in favor of deciding what to do about Chinese government subsidies for its commercial aviation industry.
During one of the many pre-Paris Air Show press briefings I attended, confirmation came that the NASA deal with Boeing allows Boeing to retain the IP for the TTBW.
TTBW and engines
The TTBW is a prime target for the new CFM RISE Open Fan engine. CFM targets 2035 as its entry-into-service date. This happens to coincide with the “mid-next decade” target Boeing CEO David Calhoun identified for introducing a new airplane.
However, although GE (one of CFM’s partners) is convinced it’s solved all the technical problems for the RISE engine and that it will be a step-change in reducing fuel burn and emissions, plenty of skeptics remain.
During GE’s pre-Paris Air Show media briefing, and during a CEO roundtable at the show, GE was asked what’s Plan B if for whatever reason the Open Fan concept doesn’t go forward. Officials ducked the question directly, maintaining the solution is the RISE. But LNA is convinced there is a Plan B, that involves the Clean Sky work that CFM partner SAFRAN has done around geared turbofan engines.
LNA also learned that Boeing also has a Plan B (and a Plan C). The TTBW could initially emerge with conventional engines and be retrofitted later with the Open Fan design. Conceivably, this could allow Boeing to advance the introduction of the TTBW a few years earlier than publicly discussed.
At a Boeing-sponsored event before the air show, I asked Chris Raymond, Boeing’s top environmental guru, if putting a conventional engine on the TTBW will be enough to bring about step-change economic and emissions improvements, even if short of the Open Fan goal. Raymond said he thought it was possible.
At the GE pre-Paris briefing, I posed the same question to Arjan Hegeman, GM of the Advanced Technology group. He, too, said it was possible.
In both instances, the questions were posed on the sidelines of the event (I don’t like letting my peers hear me ask questions like these.)
The TTBW will be the replacement for the Boeing 737.
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Driverless transit system set to debut in Cobb County | Urbanize Atlanta (https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/cobb-county-hopper-driverless-transit-system-set-debut)
(https://i.imgur.com/VRuCaFU.png)
This is a small scale thing, really an experiment, but I think MIGHT be more broadly useful if the busses are modern and clean and go where folks want to go reasonably quickly. You can equip them so they trip lights ahead of them to be green all the time.
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are they equipped with a manual emergency brake?
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are they equipped with a manual emergency brake?
I have not seen anything about specs on them. MARTA here is wanting to extend the street car line at great expense, I think these busses would be a better option.
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I agree
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A lot of folks seem enamored with light rail and streetcars, I'm not. Building those out fixes the route basically forever. If you go with busses, you can change routes as needed, easily. In time, one can build bus only lanes potentially, like bike lanes, and busses get faster. Busses can be electric now, so emissions are not at issue.
They are building a "bus rapid transit line" here, one of them.
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Right-to-repair laws are starting to get some traction, giving customers more rights to fix the products they buy. But just because you can fix something doesn't mean that it will be easy or affordable. Repairing your own car has become less and less common over the years, but at least local mechanics can come to the rescue... usually. When it comes to Tesla electric vehicles, though, some insurance companies are reportedly deciding that even low-mileage vehicles aren't worth the hassle.
Owners of certain automotive brands know that expensive repair bills come with the territory. But that doesn't mean insurance companies want to play that game, and some of them are increasingly deciding to write off low-mileage Tesla electric vehicles because they are too expensive to fix, according to a new report from Reuters.
Reuters looked at recent salvage auction listings and found that the "vast majority" of the 120 Model Y vehicles listed had less than 10,000 miles on them. While these EVs originally cost between around $60,000 and $80,000, high repair costs will keep them off the road in the future, despite their low odometer readings. A $61,000 2022 Model Y Long Range EV, for example, was in a front collision and would have cost more than $50,000 to fix had the insurer approved the repair. Reuters was not able to determine the types of incidents that caused the damage in these cases but did note that multiple well-known insurance brands, including State Farm, Geico, and Progressive, all decided the fix wasn't in.
Insurance Bill up to 30 Percent Higher
It's not like people aren't paying to protect their Teslas. In late 2022, Nerdwallet reported that the average Tesla owner with a good driving history and good credit could expect to pay about $2040 a year for a Model Y and as much as $3044 for a Model X. The average cost to insure a Model 3 is almost 30 percent higher than the national average for car insurance, Nerdwallet said.
Exactly how much more it costs to repair the average Tesla after an incident compared to other vehicles, both electric and ICE models, is difficult to gauge, but Tesla has long been aware that insurance costs for its EVs are out of line with the average cost for the industry. Tesla started offering its own insurance policies for customers in late 2019, promising that it would lower costs for Tesla drivers. Customers could certainly benefit from lower costs. As a story from The Drive in 2021 showed, a Tesla service center quoted one Model 3 owner $16,000 to fix a battery pack coolant leak after it was damaged by road debris. An independent mechanic was able to fix the issue for $700, and The Drive argued the story proved that the Right to Repair is an important issue for EVs.
For its part, Tesla's insurance side business is now helping the automaker lower future repair costs, according to company executives. "[Tesla insurance] is also giving us a good feedback loop into minimizing the cost of repair of Teslas—for all Teslas worldwide—because we obviously want to minimize the cost of repairing a Tesla if it's in a collision," CEO Elon Musk said during a recent earnings call, according to Teslarati. "Previously, we didn't actually have good insight into that because the other insurance companies would cover the cost. And actually, the cost in some cases were unreasonably high."
Tesla is using its insurance arm to make changes in how it designs its vehicles, Musk said on the call, according to Reuters. "It's remarkable how small changes in the design of the bumper [and] providing spare parts needed for collision repair have an enormous effect on the repair cost," he said. "Most accidents are actually small—a broken fender or scratched side of the car."
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While Toyota has hitherto seemed staunchly opposed to EVs, its research and development department has been developing what may be the biggest breakthrough in EV batteries away from the prying eyes of publicists: a solid-state car battery with a range of 745 miles and a charge time of ten minutes. (For those who prefer metric, that’s a range of 1200 kilometers and a charge time of six hectoseconds.)
For the first time in the history of mass-production EVs, a battery-powered car will have the same driving range as one with an engine and a gas tank.
The rise of EVs has made battery research a lot more profitable than it was a mere ten years ago, and scientists have been working on overcoming the shortcomings of solid-state batteries. Toyota is the first company that has come out and said it may have solved the range and battery weight problems.
Toyota has been more devoted to hydrogen cars than practically other auto company. Indeed, Toyota has been so enthusiastic about hydrogen that at times it seemed like a passion project of recently-departed CEO Akio Toyoda. The Toyota Mirai has become the de-facto flagship of hydrogen cars. It is about as middle-of-the-road as one can get without making a crossover instead of a sedan. Indeed, it cannot be a coincidence that Toyota designed the Mirai to look like a close relation to the Camry. Putting hydrogen fuel cells into such a deliberately normal car essentially makes refueling the only difficulty for sales.
Toyota has recently announced a hydrogen variant of its Crown luxury sedan, which will be sold only in Japan (JDM enthusiasts, take note!). For quite some time, it appeared that Toyota was one of the few automakers trying to fight a valiant crusade for a fuel that could barely be found outside the confines of a small handful of cities worldwide. Toyota is also strongly pushing the use of hydrogen for commercial trucking. While it previously seemed like Toyota was betting that hydrogen would supersede batteries, it is now apparent that the company is taking the same approach to the post-ICE future as other manufacturers.
As the public gets more comfortable with EVs, most companies have begun developing both battery and hydrogen-powered cars. A quick reading of most corporate press releases about hydrogen cars shows that nearly every automaker says something about how no single-car fuel will solve the energy crisis. On the subject of hydrogen fuel cells, corporate copywriters seem particularly fond of the phrase “just one piece of the puzzle.” It’s almost a requirement to mention the metaphorical puzzle at some point in a hydrogen press release.
Toyota’s promises about this battery seem almost too good to be true. Even Tesla, the company leading the EV vanguard, hasn’t managed to produce a vehicle that has the same driving range as a car with an inline-four and a full tank of gas. The prospect of a ten-minute charge time is just as astonishing as an EV that can allegedly drive from Chicago to Philadelphia without charging midway. If Toyota lives up to its own hype, it may usurp everyone else currently vying for the top of the EV game.
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There often are "catches" when someone announces that sort of massive breakthrough, often cost.
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Another electric vehicle (EV) startup is touting “holy grail” charging technology.
The news from UK-based Nyobolt might just rise to the billing, as it promises 155 miles on a six-minute charge, with production slated to start in 2024.
Most EVs take much longer, sometimes even hours, to fully charge.
“With our unique technology we have … developed smaller battery packs that can deliver more power and charge in less time,” Nyobolt CEO Sai Shivareddy told BBC Top Gear.
The Nyobolt website doesn’t go into great detail about the tech inside the battery. The makers promise high power, a long life cycle, and improved safety to go along with the extremely fast charge time.
Lithium-ion batteries, common in EVs and a lot of other technology, have, in some cases, caught fire. Battery-makers are working on better alternatives, in part to reduce the explosion risk.
Nyobolt experts claim that its battery has a “wider temperature performance.”
What’s more, it plans to put the tech to the test in fast fashion. Nyobolt has teamed with the UK’s Callum Design to create a sports car. The Nyobolt EV has the curves of a vintage roadster, but there’s no doubt it’s from the 21st century. Everything on the car is as high-tech as it gets.
After watching a video showcasing the car on Callum’s website, it wouldn’t be a surprise to learn the EV comes with a warp drive (maybe in the next generation).
Motor Authority reported that Nyobolt hasn’t released a production date for the sports car. But the battery tech is ready for “rapid scale-up” next year. The power pack has been tested with more than 2,000 fast-charge cycles with good performance, according to the Motor Authority report.
It’s more good news for the EV industry as it tries to match range and performance with gasoline-powered vehicles.
Nyobolt is considering plugging into the truck, bus, and luxury categories, as well, according to Motor Authority.
The sports car could be the first big test for the startup.
“Nyobolt’s technology allows this car to tick all the boxes,” Callum creative lead Aleck Jones told Top Gear.
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A new paper published by SAE International uses Car and Driver's real-world highway test data to show that electric vehicles underperform on real-world efficiency and range relative to the EPA figures by a much greater margin than internal-combustion vehicles. While the latter typically meet or exceed the EPA-estimated highway fuel economy numbers, EVs tend to fall considerably short of the range number on the window sticker. The paper, written by Car and Driver's testing director, Dave VanderWerp, and Gregory Pannone, was presented this week at SAE International's annual WCX conference. It points to a need for revised testing and labeling standards for EVs moving forward.
"Basically we've taken a look at how vehicles perform relative to the values on the window sticker, looking at the difference between what the label says and what we actually see in our real-world highway test," explained VanderWerp. "We see a big difference in that gap between gas-powered vehicles and the performance of EVs. The real question is: When first-time customers are buying EVs, are they going to be pleasantly surprised or disappointed by the range?"
On Car and Driver's 75-mph highway test, more than 350 internal-combustion vehicles averaged 4.0 percent better fuel economy than what was stated on their labels. But the average range for an EV was 12.5 percent worse than the price sticker numbers.
One reason the paper suggests for why EVs fail to match expectations is how the range is calculated. While separate city and highway range figures are computed behind closed doors, only a combined number is presented to consumers. The combined rating is weighted 55 percent in favor of the city figure, where EVs typically perform better. This inflates the range estimates, making it harder to match in real-world highway driving. The paper proposes publishing both city and highway range figures—as with fuel-economy estimates for gas-powered vehicles—to give shoppers a more holistic sense of a vehicle's abilities.
The way the tests are conducted also skews the reported range figure. Unlike Car and Driver's real-world test—carried out at a constant 75 mph—the EPA's cycle is variable, with the speed increasing and decreasing over the course of the test. While this is detrimental to the results for gas vehicles, which tend to be most efficient at a steady rpm, the ability to regenerate energy under braking leads to higher range results for EVs, which are shifted even higher by the slight bias towards the city results in the combined rating.
The EPA's highway cycle is conducted at significantly lower speeds than Car and Driver's 75-mph test, with the initial EPA results then multiplied by a reduction factor to simulate the effect of higher speeds. Automakers can chose between running a two-cycle test—where the data is multiplied by a standard 0.7 adjustment factor—or carrying out a five-cycle test in an attempt to earn a smaller reduction factor, making the label figure higher. That means range figures aren't perfectly comparable across different vehicles.
"There's a balance," explained VanderWerp. "The marketing team wants to tout a big range number, but to customers you want to be conservative." This leads to different approaches from various brands. The German automakers—BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and Porsche—typically provide a relatively conservative range figure, allowing us to meet or even at times exceed the range numbers in Car and Driver's real-world tests. Tesla, meanwhile, pursues an impressive figure for its window stickers, and ends up returning real-world results that are on average two times as far off the label value as most EVs. A range discrepancy between EVs from different companies might not be as extreme as the numbers would suggest. "400 miles of stated range for a Tesla and 300 miles for a Porsche is pretty much the same number at real highway speeds," VanderWerp said.
The paper recommends that the EPA shift the reduction factor closer to 0.6, which would result in range estimates that closely correlate with the results of the real-world efficiency test. But having the same test procedure for all cars is also crucial.
"Every automaker could aggressively use the five-cycle test and get a better reduction factor, but then more people end up being disappointed in the numbers," VanderWerp said. "They should all be tested the same, and it should be closer to the real world than it is now." The paper can be found in full at SAE's website.
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Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging (thebusinessdownload.com) (https://clean-energy.thebusinessdownload.com/debunking-ev-myths-emissions-related-to-batteries-charging/?utm_medium=social)
This might be a bit biased, perhaps maybe, which is not unusual.
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Chevy lays down the gauntlet in EV truck market with new electric Silverado that can travel 450 miles on a single charge
It seems like just about every other week, a new electric vehicle (EV) is being introduced with bigger, better features than before. Well, this time, it’s Chevy’s Silverado EV with an impressive 450-plus-mile range.
Batteries are the name of the game in the EV industry, and Chevy’s Silverado EV is poised to lead the pack. The Silverado EV boasts some impressive features, including the 450-mile range, 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds, and 10,000-pound towing capability.
But the real selling point is the 200-plus kWh battery.
To put this battery in perspective, the average EV right now is running on a 75 kWh battery, and a standard EV truck is running on a 100 kWh battery. A similar truck on the EV market, Ford’s F-150 Lighting long-range battery, comes in at 131 kWh.
Despite the massive size of this battery, the range is also incredibly impressive. While Chevy’s website advertises a conservative 400-mile range, a team at Electrek got to test out the truck and said that they easily got over 450 — even close to 500 — miles in a single charge when driving the vehicle in a normal town setting.
This type of range could be a game-changer for the EV truck market. For comparison, the GMC Hummer EV has a similar-sized battery but only has a 329-mile range.
The Silverado EV is expected to come out next year, with the longest-range battery and all options coming in at an estimated $105,000 and up. More Silverado EVs are expected to follow with varying price tags.
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I saw this article and thought I'd share it here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2023/07/24/those-in-the-southwest-are-learning-electric-cars-dont-like-it-hot/amp/
The headline relates to hot temperatures but the article also discusses cold temperatures. Per the article the rough impacts are:
- 17% loss of range at 95° and more as it gets hotter,
- 41% loss of range at 20° and more as it gets colder.
This has long been a concern/question of mine so I'm happy to see some concrete numbers.
ICE vehicles tend to lose efficiency at extreme temperatures as well but the loss is typically less severe because:
- The heat for an ICE vehicle is essentially "free" since it is an existing byproduct of the combustion process, and
- The A/C compressor uses (at least partially) surplus available power that would otherwise be wasted.
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The A/C compressor uses much less power than back in the 80's
used to turn the A/C off before turning the engine off so that you didn't try to start it with the A/C on.
then when starting, you'd let the motor warm up a bit or even get rolling before turning on the A/C
it was rough on gas mileage
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A factor is that engines today are mostly quite a bit more powerful than they were circa 1975, so the drag of the AC is less of a factor. The AC still has to pump and dump heat. The heaters on an EV just do this in reverse and are inefficient because they have to pump heat from rather cold air into you interior. The colder it gets, the less heat there is to pump.
This is one reason I am at this stage more a fan of plug in hybrids than total EVs.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CepBbZQ.png)
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This is one reason I am at this stage more a fan of plug in hybrids than total EVs.
I agree and you live in Georgia. Here in Ohio it gets almost as hot in the Summer* and MUCH colder in the winter.
With a plug-in hybrid I could just run the on board ICE when my range got slashed by extreme temperatures but with a total EV I'd be stuck in need of a charge.
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Cincy, to me, feels hotter and more humid than Atlanta, but for a shorter period of time. The cold here is rarely below 20°F, though we got down to 8°F last winter once.
My weather page showed 94°F and 41% here right now, it's hot. Cincy is 93°F and 58% RH, I prefer being here. We also have a lot of trees.
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A factor is that engines today are mostly quite a bit more powerful than they were circa 1975, so the drag of the AC is less of a factor. The AC still has to pump and dump heat.
you're correct but I'm guessing the AC compressor is much smaller and more efficient and takes much less power
Perhaps the compressor is smart enough to not pull load while starting the engine as well
both factors
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As with anything, it's situational.
A base Tesla Model 3, supposedly, has 267 miles of range. Drop that by 20% assuming this is your daily driver, as most don't push their battery beyond 80% unless it's prepping for a single long drive. So immediately pull that down to 213 miles if you start with 80% charge. Then drop another 41% off that assuming it's exactly 20degF. Now you're down to 126 miles.
Is it common that you're driving more than 126 miles in a day? For some of you, probably yes. For many others, probably no. I.e. for me today, I'll probably drive around 35-40 miles, including commute to/from work and a stop at Costco. It will actually be quite rare for me to exceed 126 miles.
Then, if there are rare days when you think 126 is too short, there's the possibility to charge to 100%, in which case you get some of that mileage back... That'll get you up to 157 miles on a single charge at 20degF. As long as you're not charging to 100% every night, that's not a problem.
And this is all assuming that you're not going anywhere that a top-off charge is convenient.
I think range anxiety is overblown. Are there people who simply can't live with an EV due to range? OF COURSE THERE ARE. Is it typically as many people who actually worry about it? I'm guessing not.
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The headline relates to hot temperatures but the article also discusses cold temperatures. Per the article the rough impacts are:
17% loss of range at 95° and more as it gets hotter,
41% loss of range at 20° and more as it gets colder.
This has long been a concern/question of mine so I'm happy to see some concrete numbers.
__________________________________
17% isn't so bad - and not many days at 20 degrees higher of 115
41% is cornsiderable - lotta days up north it doesn't make it to zero, especially at night - 20 below isn't too crazy - 40 degree difference
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I think we'd all agree range anxiety is situation, and personal. That's why I've posited that your typical suburban family could manage with one smaller EV to get to work and then a minivan or whatever, for Mom and the kids (being traditional here). Could I manage with an EV? Yes, usually. And I could rent something otherwise. One other issue I have is that away from home chargers are said to be 3-5x the cost of normal electricity, which is 12 cents per here, higher in most other places. We have chargers on site but I think they are pricey, most like 40 cents per kWhr. You need about 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles (normally). My GTI will need 3 gallons to go 100 miles on the highway, so how much am I saving?
Then there is my need to tow a 12,000 pound boat in subzero mountain terrain ....
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My problem is that I just got my $342 electric bill and it pencils out to 38.9 cents/kWh for the power AT my house.
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That is astonishing, really, even for CA. I'm paying 12 cents per. My bill last month broached $200 for the first time in 5 years.
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Yeah, and it doesn't help that I have a house from the 70s with original windows, drafty af, and quite possibly the original AC unit--if not it's also old af.
Shouldn't cost this much to cool 1200 sf. Especially since I'm usually setting the thermo at 77ish.
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1700 SF. 74 degrees constant.
$210 last month. Probably be the same for July.
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I got quite a bit of savings in Cincy by replacing the AC unit and bringing attic insulation up to 50. Windows of course are another leaker. The new ones are pretty good.
We have a bit over 2300 sf but only two sides are exposed.
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As with anything, it's situational.
A base Tesla Model 3, supposedly, has 267 miles of range. Drop that by 20% assuming this is your daily driver, as most don't push their battery beyond 80% unless it's prepping for a single long drive. So immediately pull that down to 213 miles if you start with 80% charge. Then drop another 41% off that assuming it's exactly 20degF. Now you're down to 126 miles.
Is it common that you're driving more than 126 miles in a day? For some of you, probably yes. For many others, probably no. I.e. for me today, I'll probably drive around 35-40 miles, including commute to/from work and a stop at Costco. It will actually be quite rare for me to exceed 126 miles.
Then, if there are rare days when you think 126 is too short, there's the possibility to charge to 100%, in which case you get some of that mileage back... That'll get you up to 157 miles on a single charge at 20degF. As long as you're not charging to 100% every night, that's not a problem.
And this is all assuming that you're not going anywhere that a top-off charge is convenient.
I think range anxiety is overblown. Are there people who simply can't live with an EV due to range? OF COURSE THERE ARE. Is it typically as many people who actually worry about it? I'm guessing not.
You are probably right but my concern is two things:
First, I don't want to be too early on this and come to find out that whoops, they did all their testing in SoCal at 70° and the thing has severely limited range when it snows (need to use defrost constantly to keep windshield clear) and it can barely get out of the driveway on the coldest days of the year.
Second, I'm a lot more concerned about range in winter than summer already. Tuesday I ran almost to E because I had a bunch of stuff to do and limited time so I didn't stop to fill up until I was almost done and almost empty. In the winter I almost NEVER let the tank drop below half because I've been stuck in my car for hours due to inclement weather and related accidents. If that happens I want to have enough energy on board to keep myself and my kids warm.
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I recall some "study", probably by experts, that a stalled EV will maintain heat about as long as an ICE vehicle. Of course, this depends on how full your tank is. I was a bit dubious about the outcome. I wonder if most EV drivers today recharge when they drop below 50% or let it run down to 25%, which is probably around typical for ICE owners.
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I'll wait a few years, maybe longer
Ford came out early with the Lightning
after waiting a year, the Silverado has a much better battery
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I think I'm 8-10 years away from being interested in buying an EV.
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Like nearly every other automaker on the planet, Porsche has plans (https://jalopnik.com/porsche-says-80-percent-of-its-cars-will-be-electrified-1846514040) to transition to electric vehicles by the 2030s. In the course of that transition, every vehicle in the brand’s lineup will become an EV, except for the iconic 911. Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/porsches-iconic-911-be-sole-survivor-automakers-combustion-models-2023-07-26/) reports that the 911 will be powered by an old fashioned internal combustion engine, which is part of the reason why Porsche has committed to developing e-fuels.
The 911 Will Be The Last Gas Powered Porsche (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-911-will-be-the-last-gas-powered-porsche-1850678610?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1690479006&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1pfuKCqEhfcZnLh1HKp57sNXct4EdBKmfOf1DTNWkVvWE__kB_lg8eEH8)
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maybe I will own a Porsche some day
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I'm probably closer to looking seriously at an EV than the rest of you guys, based on my driving habits, plan to keep my Jeep, and the fact that I do live in sunny and temperate SoCal.
But even then, it's not for at least 3 more years at this point when the oldest will be ready for college. And based on the mileage accrual on the Flex, I may not even be at 100K by then and may prefer to just keep driving it several more years rather than buying another car.
So I'm happy waiting to see how the market develops.
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After my gas lawnmower crapped out I swore to never buy another gas powered tool again, which I've held to. My weed whacker, trimmer, blower, lawnmower, and pressure washer are all electric. Still have a gas car, though could certainly move to EV if it makes sense money wise.
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How Much Does It Cost To Charge an Electric Car? - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/)
What Is the Cost to Charge an EV in kWh?
“A conservative rule of thumb is that an electric car gets 3 to 4 miles per kWh,” Voelcker says. “So divide the total miles you drive each month by 3 to get the kWh you would use monthly. Multiply that number by your cost per kWh. The dollar amount you get will most likely be lower than what you pay each month to buy gasoline.”
To put this into perspective, let’s give an example. Suppose you drive about 1,124 miles per month (Americans go an average of about 13,489 miles annually (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/average-miles-driven-per-year/)). For an EV, you will use about 375 kWh in that timeframe. Using the U.S. household average of about 16 cents per kWh, charging an electric car at home would cost nearly $60 per month.
How Does the Recharge Cost Compare to a Fuel Fill-Up?
According to AAA (https://gasprices.aaa.com/), the average price of gas hovers at $3.60 per gallon as of this writing. So, filling up a 12-gallon gas tank currently costs about $43. Things get a little tricky because, as we all know, cars and trucks use vastly different amounts of fuel.
Let’s say you’re driving a car that brings a combined average of 30 miles per gallon during a mix of city and highway driving. Using that same 12-gallon tank as a reference point, you’ll have 360 miles of driving range for each fill-up. If you’re driving the same 1,124 miles per month, you’ll need to refuel three times each month and spend about $129 ($43 x 3).
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The grid won't be ready by 2030.
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I think it will, mostly because by 2030, there still won't be all that many EVs on the road.
VAdoption estimates that EV sales will grow to just 29.5% of all new vehicles in the US in 2030. The International Energy Agency (IEA) projects a US EV share of 20% in 2030, based on existing policy and trends.
The projected 26.4 million EVs will make up nearly 10 percent of the 259 million light-duty vehicles (cars and light trucks) expected to be on U.S. roads in 2030
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If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
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If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
I don't think that is a goal of most automakers. Some brands have that as a goal. Clearly, folks "project" that maybe 1 in 3 new cars will be EVs by 2030, maybe, which is a fairly slow rate of replacement. Even by 2050, projections are that half the cars in the US will have ICE.
I think the "grid" will continue to have issues, and maybe in CA EVs will contribute to those issues, and maybe Texas, but simple growth in the economy is a larger increase in demand even without EVs.
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If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
most vehicles on the road today aren't 2018 or newer
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In a much-anticipated move, the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) passed a new rule today that’s finally going to streamline the backed-up US grid interconnection process.
At the end of 2022, there were more than 2,000 gigawatts of bottlenecked new power generation and storage waiting to be connected across the US. That’s the same amount of electricity generation capacity as all the power plants currently operating around the country.
Projects have faced an average wait of up to five years to connect to the grid – and today’s ruling is expected to shorten that wait (we’ll keep an eye on it to see to what extent).
FERC says today’s rule will provide “greater timing and cost certainty to interconnection customers, and prevent… undue discrimination against new sources of power generation.”
Willie Phillips, FERC chairman, said:
This new rule will enable America’s vast power generation resources to connect to the grid in a reliable, efficient, transparent, and timely manner, and in doing so, help provide more reliable, resilient, and affordable electricity for all consumers.
Phillips also noted that there’s still a lot to do.
Melissa Alfano, director of energy markets and counsel at the Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA), said, “Interconnection reforms need to be meaningful to make a difference, and this final ruling from FERC is a step in the right direction.”
“In particular, we are pleased to see that the rules set binding study deadlines and establish penalties for transmission providers that fail to meet those deadlines.”
“In addition, the new rules will make it easier to add energy storage to projects that are already in the interconnection queue, helping to increase energy storage capacity on the grid and recognize the growing value clean energy has when it comes to providing grid services.”
Today’s final rule includes several key reform areas, including, according to FERC:
Institution of a first-ready-first-served cluster study process, with increased financial commitments for interconnection customers, to improve the efficiency of the interconnection process and minimize delays;
Imposition of firm deadlines and penalties if transmission providers fail to complete their interconnection studies on time incorporation of technological advancements into the interconnection process, including consideration of advanced transmission technologies in the interconnection study process;
An update of modeling and performance requirements for inverter-based resources to ensure continued system reliability.
The more detailed “Improvements to Generator Interconnection Procedures and Agreements” can be read on the FERC Fact Sheet here.
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most vehicles on the road today aren't 2018 or newer
Including mine.
Will there be mechanics to work on my gas car in 2035?
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If half the cars on the road by 2050 have an ICE, we'll have plenty of mechanics working on them. And that is the projection.
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Including mine.
Will there be mechanics to work on my gas car in 2035?
yes, they don't all mysteriously die or retire
I'd be worried about a shop that can work on an electric vehicle
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I suspect most EVs will be diagnosed by computer and then the offending part would be replaced. This is pretty true for ICE cars anyway, and they are mostly more complex.
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How much electricity would it take to power all cars if they were electric? (usafacts.org) (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-electricity-would-it-take-to-power-all-cars-if-they-were-electric/#:~:text=Given that comparison%2C it would,20-50% more electricity.)
Given that comparison, it would take roughly 800 to 1,900 billion kWh of electricity to power all vehicles if they were EVs.
The US used about 4,130 billion kWh of electricity in 2019 (https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/browser/index.php?tbl=T07.02A#/?f=A&start=1949&end=2021&charted=1-2-3-5-8-14-15). This means if all cars were EVs that year, the US would have consumed 20-50% more electricity.
This is rather off in the future of course.
US power capacity will need to double in order to power 186 million light-duty EVs in 2050. But industry experts argue that US energy consumption decreased over the last 20 years, due to efficiency gains in appliances and the transportation sector, mean that the US power system has enough (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-weather-grids-autos-insight-idUSKBN2AX18Y) established capacity to support EV growth without the immediate need for big investments. (Figure 3).
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yes, they don't all mysteriously die or retire
I'd be worried about a shop that can work on an electric vehicle
I don't know about that.
Kids won't go to school to fix engines if their teachers tell them to go to battery school instead.
Or History school.
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I don't know much about history ...
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I don't know much about history ...
Yes, you do, and you are a chemical doctor.
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I don't know much about history ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4GLAKEjU4w
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What Happens When a Rivian EV Runs Out of Battery Charge? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-yearlong-review-update-10-running-out-of-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0a1LIk9GRa6U1EWn1PkJZ_hqcN6jitOl_I7Vp9Q3RSGSS7d89KTtN_OaU)
This is a bit long but rather "amusing" for those of us who don't have an EV. The gist of it is DO NOT run the batteries all the way down, and I had not know the Rivian had two 12 volt batteries to power accessories which are critical at times.
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it's worst than running my chevy out of gasoline
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I think future EV tow trucks will have to have a large battery on board to charge up dead EVs.
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if you're already there with the tow truck, why not tow them to a supercharger? of home to their garage charger?
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It would be cheaper to juice them up with 20 miles range so they can drive off, I think, and you wouldn't need a tow truck, just a truck or van with a decent battery.
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What Happens When a Rivian EV Runs Out of Battery Charge? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-yearlong-review-update-10-running-out-of-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0a1LIk9GRa6U1EWn1PkJZ_hqcN6jitOl_I7Vp9Q3RSGSS7d89KTtN_OaU)
This is a bit long but rather "amusing" for those of us who don't have an EV. The gist of it is DO NOT run the batteries all the way down, and I had not know the Rivian had two 12 volt batteries to power accessories which are critical at times.
Yeah, and this is one source of trepidation for EV adoption. I want to make sure a company has gotten through the learning curve before I'll buy their product. Obviously Tesla went through that learning curve. No did Nissan with the Leaf if you've heard of the early battery management problems they had.
BTW I often liken this to HDDs and SSDs. In the early SSD days, companies didn't understand the failure modes and how to test for failures. Hence the early SSDs had TONS of problems. Everyone thought they should be more reliable b/c they had no moving parts, but the firmware is MUCH more complicated due to moving data around in ways HDD never did, so you'd have drives brick from FW bugs in ways that HDDs never really happened because we'd had 40 years of learning curve. Obviously SSDs have matured and that concern is no longer really all that significant, but in the early days they were.
It would be cheaper to juice them up with 20 miles range so they can drive off, I think, and you wouldn't need a tow truck, just a truck or van with a decent battery.
Exactly. Years ago, when I still had my Ford Ranger, unbeknownst to me the fuel gauge failed. Once it dropped to 1/4 tank, the gauge would not register anything lower. So if you had less than 1/4 tank, you had no indication of the level. And as you'd expect, I first learned of this failure when I ran out of gas on the freeway.
SoCal has some roving trucks to deal with these types of things to reduce traffic slowdowns from people stranded on the side of the road, and one happened to be going by. Instead of towing me to the nearest gas station (probably less than or very barely over a mile away actually), he just poured 1/2 gal of gas in my tank and I drove off to fill up. Much easier, and less time consuming for him, than trying to hook up my truck, and tow it, one mile.
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26% of Toyota sales were EVs and hybrids first half of 2023, and Toyota claims it is working on developing a battery with a 900-mile range. Toyota’s latest sales data reveals a major consumer shift is underway: ‘It’s a powerful upgrade that drives change’ (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/toyota-latest-sales-data-reveals-201413395.html)
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That 26% figure would include a LOT of hybrids, not EVs.
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Why Most Car Companies Don't Use Stainless Steel Bodies (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/theres-a-reason-most-car-companies-dont-use-stainless-s-1850082421)
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Our Volkswagen ID4 Is Costing Us Pennies to Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-vw-id4-yearlong-review-update-3-cost-to-run/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3QwKGUkIXTAKsA8JXgRuKaAhlPDZmoX3mxOPFTOy4UwZIHDPi95-AXBZ4)
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RMIT engineers say they've tripled the energy density of cheap, rechargeable, recyclable proton flow batteries, which can now challenge commercially available lithium-ion batteries for capacity with a specific energy density of 245 Wh/kg.
That's as compared to the ~260-odd Wh/kg delivered by the lithium-ion batteries in a current Tesla Model 3 battery pack, but without using any lithium, thus avoiding a forecasted lithium squeeze, as well as geopolitically sensitive dependence on China in the battery supply chain, and all kinds of end-of-life issues.
We've covered this particular team's work before, way back in 2014, when the first proof of concept of a hydrogen-based proton flow battery was announced.
Essentially, it's a different way of using hydrogen for energy storage. The proton battery works something like a reversible fuel cell, accepting water while charging, splitting out positively-charged hydrogen ions and releasing oxygen.
In their latest paper, the RMIT researchers looked into the fundamentals of how the proton battery worked – mainly on the oxygen-side reactions – in order to formulate and test some ideas around how it might be improved. These ideas, according to the paper, included vacuum drying of the activated carbon powder prior to electrode preparation, in order to remove water in the material, mild heating of the overall cell to 70 °C during operation, and replacement of the oxygen-side gas diffusion layer (GDL) with a much thinner GDL fiber sheet.
The benefits, they say, were enormous, resulting in a proton battery capable of storing almost three times as much energy per weight as their last one – and "more than double the highest electrochemical hydrogen storage using an acidic electrolyte previously reported in the literature." At a density of 882 joules per gram, it roughly equates to 245 Wh/kg, right up there with good commercial lithium batteries currently on the market.
“Our battery has an energy-per-unit mass already comparable with commercially available lithium-ion batteries, while being much safer and better for the planet in terms of taking less resources out of the ground,” said lead researcher and RMIT Professor John Andrews in a press release.
“Our battery is also potentially capable of very fast charging," he continued. "The main resource used in our proton battery is carbon, which is abundant, available in all countries and cheap compared to the resources needed for other types of rechargeable battery such as lithium, cobalt and vanadium. There are also no end-of-life environmental challenges with a proton battery, since all components and materials can be rejuvenated, reused or recycled.”
Roundtrip efficiency is a definite bugbear for most hydrogen powertrains, where energy is effectively thrown away during electrolysis, compression/cooling, storage and at the fuel cell when converting hydrogen back into electricity. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. "Our proton battery has much lower losses than conventional hydrogen systems, making it directly comparable to lithium-ion batteries in terms of energy efficiency" said Andrews.
He clarifies further in an email: "We're targeting above 75% roundtrip energy efficiency at this stage. Yes, this will be time dependent depending on the rate of self-discharge, but we expect this can be minimised with optimal design. As you will know, this is comparable with lithium ion batteries, and much greater than conventional electrolyser/H2 gas storage/fuel cell systems (<45%)."
Still, the team is moving to commercialize the proton battery. "We are looking forward to developing this technology further in Melbourne and Italy, in partnership with Eldor Corporation, to produce a prototype battery with a storage capacity that meets the needs of a range of domestic and commercial applications," said Andrews. "The aim of this collaboration is to scale up the system from the watt to the kilowatt and ultimately to the megawatt scale."
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That 26% figure would include a LOT of hybrids, not EVs.
A few minutes ago I read a parallel article about Ford, and the demand seems to be hybrids over EVs for now. The article further stated that there is a demand for having dual use capability not only to run the car, but to have electric outlets for appliances for uses such as operating a dorm refrigerator at a tailgate, or for charging tools, or use of electric tools at a jobsite.
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Our Volkswagen ID4 Is Costing Us Pennies to Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-vw-id4-yearlong-review-update-3-cost-to-run/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3QwKGUkIXTAKsA8JXgRuKaAhlPDZmoX3mxOPFTOy4UwZIHDPi95-AXBZ4)
The cruxed of the article you linked is that it costs about $.07 per mile to operate the VW ID4.
This article says it costs about $.101 per mile to operate an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) light duty vehicle, and $.09 per mile to operate a plug-in hybrid vehicle. FOTW #1190, June 14, 2021: Battery-Electric Vehicles Have Lower Scheduled Maintenance Costs than Other Light-Duty Vehicles | Department of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june-14-2021-battery-electric-vehicles-have-lower-scheduled#:~:text=The estimated scheduled maintenance cost for a light-duty,engine vehicle (ICEV) totals 10.1 cents per mile.) (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=976729120414740)
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It heavily depends of course on prices.
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The Chevy Blazer EV Heads To Dealers, But You'll Have To Wait For The Cheap Ones (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-chevy-blazer-ev-heads-to-dealers-with-a-steep-price-1850694493?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1690902005&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3W4HSQKZbdsDbsCzyMFLDmZgwxx2ncOdzJyQbsvQtbkzGwg7l7Av9ahx0)
Initially, Chevy said (https://jalopnik.com/the-2024-chevy-blazer-ev-packs-up-to-557-hp-and-320-mil-1849193861#:~:text=GM says the Blazer and all this tech will be ready to hit showrooms next summer. Initially%2C it will offer the 2LT and RS models%2C priced from %2447%2C595 and %2451%2C995 respectively.) that the Blazer EV would be offered in 2LT and RS trims with starting prices of $47,595 and $51,995 respectively. These prices are still listed in the Blazer EV section of the Chevy site (http:// https//www.chevrolet.com/electric/blazer-ev).
Prices have increased from their early estimates to $56,715 for the 2LT AWD and $60,215 for the RS AWD; the rear-wheel drive RS costs more at $61,790. A Chevy rep told the Freep (https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2023/07/31/gm-ships-chevy-blazer-ev-to-dealers-price-range/70497022007/) that the first cars being shipped were highly optioned “launch editions.”
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That thing is ugly, like pretty much all of the little crossover looking things.
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I like the look, I see that they ship high optioned vehicles initially, as usual.
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2025 Cadillac Escalade IQ: First Look at the Electric Escalade! (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-electric-first-look-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3mky0zcoHR9YpvUi_Y5aq_N51S1HNMaXjQdSFNACXJZN6mWonLbHpsVU4)
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2023 Ford F-150 Lightning XLT Yearlong Review: Road-Trip Range Strategies (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-update-3-road-trip-speed/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0uSNso73eIPvokyoRyMmSP58lmHLAsn75U4bTFadBc74p4xdgoZ6N-WLM)
Yes, over a 1,000-mile trip, maintaining a constant 80 mph saves 50 minutes of driving time versus driving 75 mph, but 45 minutes of that are consumed by the three additional 15-minute charging stops, for an ideal savings of less than 5 minutes (which the time of slowing, hooking up, etc. surely consumes). If you can tolerate 70 mph driving, you'll eliminate another two charging stops, stretching the total journey time by another 28 minutes relative to the 75-mph time, but quite possibly clawing some of that back in logistical time savings. We extrapolated an estimate for 85 mph, and wow does that extend the journey! Relative to going 80 mph, the 11-hour and 45-minute drive time is extended by the addition of six 15-minute charging stops (or three more 30- and 45-minute stops), with the effect of nearly equalizing the overall trip time with that of traveling 65 mph (and that's before you figure in potential speeding-citation stops).
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That's a problem
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So, with an EV, range drops dramatically with:
cold weather
towing
higher freeway speeds
Aside from recharging challenges, those three are pretty big negs. And they aren't subject to some kind of technical fix that i can see, at least not soonish.
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The manufacturers are really trying to shove EV's down our throats.
Anyone watch the BMW open?
I imagine they are under pressure to do so. Actually no. Not "I imagine". More like "I'm sure".
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yup, I was sort of watching
they can try all they want
not happening here in flyover country
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Top 50 Metro Areas By Electric Vehicle registration:
1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim 230,940
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Berkeley 122,404
3 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara 73,810
4 New York-Newark-Jersey City70,943
5 San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad 51,616
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria 43,183
7 Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler 42,049
8 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue 41,755
9 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario 40,232
10 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Alpharetta 36,051
11 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin 32,775
12 Sacramento-Roseville-Folsom 27,937
13 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro 27,525
14 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach 26,943
15 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington 18,769
16 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood 17,648
17 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn 16,910
18 Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington 15,736
19 Boston-Cambridge-Newton 15,511
20 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise 14,304
21 Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura 13,080
22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
23 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson 12,568
24 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk 11,724
25 Honolulu 10,539
26 Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater 10,401
27 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford 9,923
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082
29 Salt Lake City 7,822
30 Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown 7,582
31 Tucson 7,353
32 Hartford-East Hartford-Middletown 7,242
33 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia 6,858
34 St Louis 6,661
35 Raleigh-Cary 6,565
36 Nashville-Franklin-Murfreesboro 6,146
37 Columbus(OH) 6,093
38 Stockton 5,918
39 Fresno 5,481
40 Cincinnati 5,368
41 Pittsburgh 4,744
42 New Haven-Milford 4,675
43 Cleveland-Elyria 4,304
44 Ogden-Clearfield 4,289
45 Rochester(NY) 4,151
46 Jacksonville 4,064
47 Kansas City 4,040
48 Provo-Orem 3,876
49 Albany Schenectady-Troy 3,853
50 Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson 3,712
[color=rgb( var(--theme-link_hover) )]https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/[/color] (https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/)
(https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/)(Looks like this data is from August 2021, just FYI)
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22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082
Oil country!
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22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082
Oil country!
Yup. Those have got to be the two on the list with the lowest registrations per capita.
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and the most likely to be run off the road
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Speaking of running off the road...
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-using-fsd-beta-drives-into-flood-waters-1850762102
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Dumbass.
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what do you expect from a Tesla driver?
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Real-world figures | Hydrogen buses cost 2.3 times more to run per km than battery electric ones, says Italian study
The relative energy inefficiency of fuel-cell vehicles is primarily responsible for the difference, report explains
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/real-world-figures-hydrogen-buses-cost-2-3-times-more-to-run-per-km-than-battery-electric-ones-says-italian-study/2-1-1511785 (https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/real-world-figures-hydrogen-buses-cost-2-3-times-more-to-run-per-km-than-battery-electric-ones-says-italian-study/2-1-1511785)
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what do you expect from a Tesla driver?
I expect them to be pissed after their batteries start on fire after being submerged in salt water.
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ICEd: Cops Called After Energy Secretary EV Charger Goof (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm-ev-road-trip-incident/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR22AgAAv3dFfL6iUMWsJRqrY4hRRajLVYdQk9i5qn6FPJ6QwKD75-UYnHg)
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Toyota's EV battery future promises 500 miles of range by 2026 — and much more beyond - Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/17/toyotas-ev-battery-future-promises-500-miles-of-range-by-2026-and-much-more-beyond/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwAR2Q0qxS2aPg5wZDHrqcFYFlXa_4yN8BgZ0wTq0TuHXPUMLmhbpedkPAgkc)
And according to its blue-sky battery (https://www.autoblog.com/tag/battery/) “roadmap,” the Japanese giant sees coming in 2027-28 its first solid-state battery (https://electrek.co/2023/06/13/toyota-claims-solid-state-ev-battery-tech-breakthrough/), which would offer 1,000 kilometers (about 620 miles) of range and take an 80% charge in 10 minutes.
Eventually, Toyota predicts, advanced cell technologies could extend an EV’s driving range to more than 746 miles (1,200 km), and, further down the line, to as much as 932 miles (1,500 km).
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EVs might be PRACTICABLE in a few years
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As EV sales surge and cars get heavier, parking garages have to change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/as-ev-sales-surge-and-cars-get-heavier-parking-garages-have-to-change.html)
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As EV sales surge and cars get heavier, parking garages have to change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/as-ev-sales-surge-and-cars-get-heavier-parking-garages-have-to-change.html)
So will roads, bridges, parking lots, etc.
Just minor details.
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So will roads, bridges, parking lots, etc.
Just minor details.
None of which tend to be captured in the projected switching costs from ICE to EV.
I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't continue moving forward with such a switch, but I am asking for some honesty and transparency about what it's actually going to cost.
There Ain't Any Free Lunch and somebody is going to have to pay for it, one way or another.
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None of which tend to be captured in the projected switching costs from ICE to EV.
I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't continue moving forward with such a switch, but I am asking for some honesty and transparency about what it's actually going to cost.
There Ain't Any Free Lunch and somebody is going to have to pay for it, one way or another.
Do some digging on what it costs monetarily and energy-wise to build the batteries (and solar panels).
Do some digging on what kind of construction it takes to get a 300' tall wind turbine tower to a site. Farm roads don't cut it. The turning radius for those trailers is HUGE.
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Do some digging on what it costs monetarily and energy-wise to build the batteries (and solar panels).
Do some digging on what kind of construction it takes to get a 300' tall wind turbine tower to a site. Farm roads don't cut it. The turning radius for those trailers is HUGE.
Oh I'm well acquainted with the costs of batteries. And lots of those analyses don't even factor in how many times the raw materials are moved around the world during the production of them.
And we have those wind turbines all over the state, I regularly pass convoys hauling those vanes along the highways.
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I've read in various spots that an EV won't be carbon-neutral for anywhere from 20-50K miles due to the energy required to make the batteries alone.
And how long do those batteries actually last?
And I ponder what the real motives are here.
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Battery life has been difficult to assess for obvious reasons. Tesla has concluded that they lose somewhere around 10% in 200,000 miles, with a lot of variability. That's a Tesla figure, so take it with a grain.
According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, your Tesla batteries are supposed to last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles, or 1,500 battery cycles.
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The batteries from everyone I've talked to have been fine for Tesla. The early Nissan Leaf had horrible battery problems due to poor thermal management. Tesla has seemed to solve that. The other issue is that people have to train themselves not to charge to 100% on the regular. Only do that before a road trip or something where you know you need it. Charge to 80% for daily driving and it'll help battery life.
The only folks I've known to complain about Tesla are the following:
- Complaint about build quality, which was a major issue for Tesla at the beginning, and not 100% sure they've figured it out.
- Repairability/costs. The husband of one of my wife's doctors (also a Dr) had a Model X, and had either some minor fender bender or mechanical issue. He was driving a Tesla loaner for something like a year, and eventually Tesla and the insurance company just declared it totaled because they couldn't get parts to fix it.
- The Model 3 bills itself as a luxury car akin to a BMW/Merc/Lexus. In reality, it's a VW/Ford/Toyota level vehicle with a luxury price tag and much better acceleration.
I don't know that I'd ever buy a Tesla. With the learning curve of EVs, it's unclear whether there will be other viable options in my needs and price range when it comes time to move on from the Flex. But I'd definitely consider it.
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I've looked at Teslas for years at the car show at the State Fair. Agree that even on their "luxury" models, the fit and finish is much closer to Toyota/Ford/VW. Which would be fine, except the pricetag doesn't match.
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Yep. And while I'd like to blame Tesla for being a weird poorly-managed company which is why they spent SO much time having profitability issues despite that price tag...
...the real reason that price tag is so high is the cost of the batteries.
That'll change eventually. But we're not there yet.
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I've been in a Model 3 and a Model S. The 3 sucks hard. The S was nice, but WAY too much money.
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If you gave me a Tesla-I would sell it immediately. Not a good vehicle
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me too.
W/O even checking to see if it was a good vehicle
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I have had a few brief experiences with EVs. One was a VW in Copenhagen, a taxi. It seemed fine, the driver liked it. My step son rented a Tesla Y to drive from here to Cincy and back, he liked it, I had a short ride in it, seemed OK. My wife said she liked it.
I'm a bit interested in a hybrid, not a full EV, but as little as we drive I'm not sure the extra cost is worth it. I think some plug in hydrids get a tax credit.
In California or Hawaii, the equation might be different.
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I've been in a Model 3 and a Model S. The 3 sucks hard. The S was nice, but WAY too much money.
this is very true. the top of the line Model S is niiiiiiiiiiice. the model 3....kinda sucks.
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I don't think the model S is all that nice. Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range. Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
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I don't think the model S is all that nice. Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range. Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
I haven't ridden in one. However it's the one Tesla that actually looks good. The X is a nondescript bubble, the 3 is a platypus, and the Y is an obese platypus.
And don't get me started on the stupid-ass Cybertruck. It makes the Mustang EV look stylish.
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I don't think the model S is all that nice. Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range. Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....
but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
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it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....
but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
Yup that's my point. I'm not talking about track performance.
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it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....
but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
1. I'd rather have the S and drive 600 miles before needing to stop.
2. Don't know where I'd use that performance around here. And you definitely couldn't use it over there.
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1. I'd rather have the S and drive 600 miles before needing to stop.
2. Don't know where I'd use that performance around here. And you definitely couldn't use it over there.
agree on both counts.
Tesla needs to drastically up their game on the interiors of the Model S if they want to charge $100+k. It's almost like they just quit trying.
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How Long Can an Electric Car Idle in The Winter? - InsideHook (https://www.insidehook.com/article/vehicles/electric-car-12-hours-freezing-cold-test?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=keywee&kwp_0=2304272&kwp_4=6499215&kwp_1=2782798&fbclid=IwAR2uF2YY8XGjK76uDMbg5mzXfNe8UI76VSw-AFfNekuuMUClPQrqLEtempQ)
Here’s how the battery range held up in three-hour intervals:
- 6 a.m.: 100% charge, 186 miles of range, outside temperature 13 degrees
- 9 a.m.: 92% charge, 164 miles of range, outside temperature 14 degrees
- 12 p.m.: 87% charge, 157 miles of range, outside temperature 18 degrees
- 3 p.m.: 81% charge, 144 miles of range, outside temperature 22 degrees
- 6 p.m.: 75% charge, 132 miles of range, outside temperature 24 degrees
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not bad
a gasser idling for 12 hours might burn 2 or 3 gallons and lose 50 miles of range
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Idling uses up to ½ gallon of fuel per hour (although it varies depending on the type and size of the engine). It may not seem like much, but idling for a few minutes everyday can cost you several dollars per week.
"up to" ... that would mean 6 gallons of course, which could dry out a tank. And some EVs out there would be low on range when they got caught.
Tow trucks will need to lug along a battery capable of charging EVs at some point, to 10-20 mile range.
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or they could simply tow the EV into a charging station
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or they could simply tow the EV into a charging station
Generally I think that's more of a hassle.
Back when I had my Ford Ranger, I had an issue (unknown to me) come up with my gas gauge. It never registered <1/4 tank. So if I was empty, it said I had 1/4 tank of gas. You can guess how I discovered the issue (left stranded by the side of the road).
A tow truck came by, as SoCal has these for stranded motorists to keep from impacting/causing traffic issues. I was 1/2 mi from the next exit where I could buy gas, but instead of trying to hook me up and tow me there, he just poured a gallon of gas in my tank and I was on my way.
It'll generally be cheaper/easier to give someone enough gas / enough of a quick charge to get them on the road to the nearest gas station than to hook them up and tow them.
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Yeah, one could see stalled EVs out there needing a ten mile charge and one tow truck would service them fairly quickly, as opposed to towing.
A tow truck should be able to tote around a ~33 kWhr battery to get this done.
When my plane had to be towed, it cost us $180. In Indiana.
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I agree, but until the market balances itself, the towing company will probably just hit EVs with the more expensive towing charge
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Initially, no doubt, eventually competition will weigh in I suspect.
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2024 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range vs. 2023 Toyota Prius Prime: Which Is the Better Starter EV? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-toyota-prius-prime-vs-tesla-model-3-highland-standard-range-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1_skKLNK6VD6j0b6yBACwxZniAZbO_T2W8tU2M5veSG3YyFMHtZOPUxHc)
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2025 Volvo EX30 First Drive: A Hit in the Making (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025-volvo-ex30-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR18km7cKt38Ur3JG4fMjWBHtt8eEjJhpvAnOdU-7ePkink-I-RKYCJH_R0)
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As I appear likely to be in the market for some kind of CUV next year, I was idly thinking about EVs. They appear to cost about $10 K more than an ICE vehicle, roughly. They do tend to offer better acceleration in most categories.
But say I get a Hyundai Tucson Hybrid, which is in the running, and it really gets 37 mpg. If I drive it 6,000 miles a year, which is about right for us, I'd need 162 gallons of gasoline. Around here, gas is fairly cheap, but it bounces around, let's say $3.50 per gallon, so $570 for gas, per year. For folks who drive a more typical distance in a year, call it $1,000 in gas per year.
If charging an EV was free, you can see where I'm going with this (aside from any tax credit). Maybe for a truck or heavy SUV that would get 16 mpg or so it starts to make more sense?
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When my plane had to be towed, it cost us $180. In Indiana.
Have to take a Balloon home?Wind power and all that
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I called my ex. My son was due at her house for dinner that day at 6 PM. It was a beautiful November day and he was interested in flying. I was showing him some navagational stuff and letting him fly it a bit, he was about 10.
I got her phone recording, so I said we'd had an incident, we were fine, but she'd need to pick us up at the airport. I called from the sheriff's car and left a call back number for their department. So, she called that number (no cell phone) and the dispatcher told her we had crash landed.
The deputy sheriff driving us was nice looking. And friendly.
I later got calls from some lawyers wanting me to sue somebody.
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(https://i.imgur.com/u5QaXkM.png)
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The Ram 1500 Ramcharger will be a hybrid like a diesel locomotive | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/business/stellantis-ramcharger/index.html)
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The Ram 1500 Ramcharger will be a hybrid like a diesel locomotive | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/business/stellantis-ramcharger/index.html)
Makes a ton of sense for guys like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) who might ordinarily be in the market for an electric vehicle for daily driving but can't afford the range hit while towing on the weekends.
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Utee and I have mused about a Diesel electric truck. A Diesel can be designed to be very efficient around 2200 RPM and run steadily there to power a generator.
The electric motors would have ample torque and ALSO a very gradual ability when it comes to applying power, they can be very sensitive, which is one reason trains use them. Trains don't want to overdo it and spin wheels.
Now you have the torque of an EV and the range of a Diesel without adding too much battery size and weight.
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good luck with the marketing
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Such a truck would have a niche market I suspect, at least at first. But it sounds to me like a decent proposition for some.
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niche market = huge losses for the manufacturer
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Generally speaking, yes, not in all cases though. The EVs being pushed now are niche cars and the mfgs are mostly losing a ton on them, for now.
Tesla lost a ton early on too.
A good question is how fast EVs MAY become profitable more broadly.
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I've been looking pretty hard at CUVs (like the Honda CR-V) because my wife clearly wants one. My choice at this point is a Hyundau Tucson Hybrid (which I have not driven). My daughter had a Tuscon regular vehicle which I rode in briefly, seemed OK.
These things are larger than I prefer and not as fun to drive as the GTI, but whatever. The above gets good fuel economy on regular gas and probably is "OK" and $40K. I'll try and put it off as long as I can.
My wife has now blown two tires on the GTI in town hitting something. It's not nearly as bad as the Caddy was, but it's not ideal either. I looked at EVs, no way the math works for us. I'd probably seriously look at the BMW X1 but it has two apparent flaws I couldn't live with. Maybe they get fixed, maybe not.
I've noticed a few more EVs in our parking garages here, a Volvo and a Subaru recently.
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Tesla Model X Slides Down Boat Ramp, Ignites And Burns Underwater (newsbreak.com) (https://www.newsbreak.com/news/3224778571923-tesla-model-x-slides-down-boat-ramp-ignites-and-burns-underwater?_f=app_share&s=a3&share_destination_id=OTgyMDQ1NTQtMTY5OTc0MjQ4NTM5MQ%3D%3D&pd=06e3UQAY&hl=en_US&send_time=1699742485&actBtn=floatShareButton&trans_data={)
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It will be interesting if Toyota can realy deliver on their new battery technology. Short of that, I think we're at least a decade away from seeing a lot of folks buying a pure EV. Famiilies with two vehicles might get one so Dad can go to work. I expect urban delivery vans to go EV sooner.
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It will be interesting if Toyota can realy deliver on their new battery technology. Short of that, I think we're at least a decade away from seeing a lot of folks buying a pure EV. Famiilies with two vehicles might get one so Dad can go to work. I expect urban delivery vans to go EV sooner.
I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.
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much different cultures
EVs are for the left coast and Denver
other bastions of liberalism
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I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.
We have a few here of course, but gas is running around $2.70 right now. That's a factor of course. I've seen five pure EVs in our garage, out of maybe 200 vehicles total. Two are new, a Volvo and a Subaru. There are a couple more PHEVs.
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I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.
Yeah... I'd say California isn't exactly "representative" when it comes to stuff like this.
Even here in liberal, high-tech Austin, where sales of EVs are comparatively strong, I'd still be surprised if it's more than 1/20 new cars being sold, are pure EV.
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Yeah... I'd say California isn't exactly "representative" when it comes to stuff like this.
Even here in liberal, high-tech Austin, where sales of EVs are comparatively strong, I'd still be surprised if it's more than 1/20 new cars being sold, are pure EV.
Some quick googling tells me that here in Texico for 2022(ish), new EV registrations were about 67,000 and total new cars sold were about 1.3 million, so that comes in right at 5% or 1/20.
Since I know rural Texas isn't buying... well... any, then I guess I'm wrong and the number in Austin must be at least slightly higher than 1/20. :)
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The funny thing is I hear people from around the country say "I've never even seen a Rivian."
I see them all the time. Of course, their HQ is in Irvine, and it's possible they're all employee-owned vehicles. But I see them lol :57:
I see one driveway in my neighborhood walking the dog with two Rivians. One truck and one SUV. If I ever walk by while someone's outside, I might ask if they're Rivian employees...
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[color=rgba(34,87,218,var(--tw-text-opacity))]Electric vehicles (EVs) (https://www.axios.com/energy-environment/electric-vehicles)[/url] accounted for nearly 9% of monthly new vehicle registrations in Atlanta in January 2023 — up from 5.5% in January 2022, Axios' Joann Muller reports.[/font][/size][/color]
- Tesla's Model 3 and Model Y accounted for roughly half of the month's 2,222 new registrations, followed by [color=rgba(34,87,218,var(--tw-text-opacity))]Rivian's Amazon delivery vehicle for Amazon (https://www.axios.com/2022/07/21/amazon-delivery-rivian-truck-electric-vehicle)[/url] and the Chevrolet Bolt.[/font][/size][/color]
You might think 9% is a large percentage, and it is, but Atlanta probably has over a million vehicles in the metro area. I see different figures on new car sales, call it a quarter million. So, 25,000 new EVs per year more or less would take a long time to replace 2 million plus ICE vehicles, and obviously the 9% probably will increase each year.
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I think I've seen... maybe one Rivian here in Austin?
Teslas are the most common EVs I see, but it could be just because I notice their unique styling. It's possible that I'm seeing a lot of EV Toyotas or Hondas or whatever, and just can't tell, because they look like any other Toyota or Honda or whatever.
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I think I've seen... maybe one Rivian here in Austin?
Teslas are the most common EVs I see, but it could be just because I notice their unique styling. It's possible that I'm seeing a lot of EV Toyotas or Hondas or whatever, and just can't tell, because they look like any other Toyota or Honda or whatever.
Both Honda and Toyota are late on the pure BEV train. I don't even really see them here.
With the money around Austin, it wouldn't surprise me if you've seen a couple Audi E-Tron or Jaguar I-Pace and not even realized you were looking at an EV. They don't look like a platypus (Model 3) or a fat platypus (Model Y).
Hyundai and Kia both have EVs as well. The Hyundai Ionic 5 would probably stand out to you as it's ugly as f**k and also weird-looking in a Blade Runner futuristic way that screams "EV". But the Kia EVs are actually sorta good looking.
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Quite a few Teslas around my local town of 30,000. I usually see 3-4 or more per day.
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I noticed a new "Mustang" a week or so ago.
Only because the woman cut me off in traffic
might be an EV don't know
looked like many of the SUVs
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(https://i.imgur.com/NVaAlA5.png)
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Electric Vehicles Owners Maybe Just Don't Drive As Much: New Study (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45822549/electric-vehicle-drive-less/?fbclid=IwAR1W9dX0DbLAkfBm1F6wg6iVbj5QtCsQJiyZCvNPQyNyDfXoVSA_XGqH9yI)
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Cadillac Optiq: New entry-level EV crossover (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/17/cadillac-optiq-entry-level-ev.html)
(https://i.imgur.com/JU7jG14.png)
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Maybe this has been addressed here already, but what does an average EV do to one's electric bill? Say you drive 60 miles per day on average.
And is it anywhere near feasible yet to take road trips with one of those things? I don't notice a slew of charging stations everywhere--not that I'm looking for them--and I've heard it can take an hour or more to charge, which is completely untenable when traveling. And how much does it cost to charge up at one of those station if you found one and had the time?
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The answers vary a lot depending on where you live and how much your electricity costs.
As of February 2023, the average residential electricity rate in the U.S. is about 23 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh).
Importantly, electricity rates can vary widely based on where you live. Rates vary from a low of 10.35 ¢ / kWh in Idaho to a high of 28.38 ¢ / kWh in California.
An EV uses about 33-34 kWhr to go 100 miles. In your scenario, it would cost you about $4.50 on average to charge you car to home to drive 60 miles. I pay about 13 cents per kWhr here, so it would be less of course. Commercial chargers cost more than charging at home and vary all over the map.
Gas around here is under $3 right now. If you get 30 mpg, which is not uncommon, you'd be paying $6 with an ICE car obviously. As for charging times needed, that depends a LOT on which kind of charger one is using. A 110 volt outlet adds only about 3-4 miles of range per hour.
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Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh. 33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles.
Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles. Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.
If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective. No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit.
110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged. I'd need 210 hours per day. I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask.
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Many folks use a 220 outlet, and I'd guess most use a "fast charger" specific item they add in their garage. A 220v outlet will do 7-8 miles in an hour. A fast charger can add 100 miles of range in 20-60 minutes, some do it in as little as 10 minutes.
With an EV you of course need no oil changes, and your brakes will last basically forever (which is also true for a hybrid). Insurance costs may well be quite a bit higher. Even a small ding can total the car if the battery pack is damaged.
At this point, I think a regular hybrid is a much better choice overall. And most supercars are going to hybrids, including the Corvette E-Ray.
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the Lucid Air Dream Edition Range (https://insideevs.com/news/550025/lucid-air-fast-charging-review/), averaged 10.81 miles added per minute of charging from 0 to 80% and 2.86 miles per minute from 80% to 100%. However, you can buy five Bolt EVs for the price of one Lucid Air Dream Edition, so that has to be taken into consideration.
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Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh. 33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles.
Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles. Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.
If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective. No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit.
110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged. I'd need 210 hours per day. I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask.
Yeah, depends a lot on where you live. Electricity is expensive here in CA, but then again so is gas (almost $5/gal). One advantage of home charging is that if you're on a time of use (ToU) rate plan, the bulk of home charging is done overnight when electricity is cheapest.
From every Tesla owner I've talked to, road tripping is actually not that big of a deal. The car's software can plan out your charging stops based on a couple of things and do other things to make it more convenient:
- Charging to 100% full is the biggest issue. Charging to 80% is pretty quick at their superchargers, and it's that final 20% that really slows you down. But if you know that the distance to the next charge stop (and their software knows this) will only draw you down perhaps from 80% back to 15-20%, there's no need to charge to 100%. According to Tesla, adding 200 miles of range takes 15 minutes. That's more than filling your gas tank, of course, but it's not like you've got to stop for 30-60 minutes every time you charge.
- The software knows your charging plans, so it can start automatically doing the thermal management necessary to prepare for faster charging as you're approaching the charging station.
- The range from one station to the next is going to typically be ~200 miles, which aligns well for most people with the amount of time they want to sit in the seat between stretch-the-legs / empty-the-bladder / fill-the-stomach stops.
I'm not sure other manufacturers have quite caught up with Tesla on this front. Which bothers me as I'd want to avoid Tesla if I go EV. But I'm not sure I road trip often enough to make a difference.
Per your last point, almost nobody uses 110 to charge unless they barely drive. A Level 2 charger can be installed relatively inexpensively ($500-1K) if you already have 240V service in the garage. Generally almost anyone should be able to charge to 80% overnight with L2 charging.
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IMHO an EV can make a lot of sense for people if some of the following conditions exist:
- They're well off enough that they can afford it--EVs are still expensive and you'll never make up the cost of a used Civic/Corolla vs even a Model 3 in gas savings IMHO. If your calculation is a Model 3 vs a BMW 3-series, you're in a different place.
- They live in a single family home with parking and can install an L2 charger for home charging. If you have to rely on public chargers for 100% of your charging, the gas savings pretty much disappear IMHO.
- 90%+ of their driving is similar to "typical." I.e. mostly using the car for commuting, errands, etc at likely <50-60 mi/day, or even someone who uses their car for business driving around a lot (maybe up to 150 mi/day) and for whom traveling >200 mi in a day would be an uncommon event.
- Someone who doesn't live in a BRUTALLY cold climate. By which I mean Edmonton might not be good, but Cleveland is probably fine. If they do live someplace that cold, they shouldn't be driving more than 100 mi/day.
- Someone who doesn't tow regularly (if looking at a truck).
I can say here in CA, I know a lot of happy EV owners and have heard few to zero horror stories. Probably the worst is (as CD alludes to) a guy who has a Model S and ran into a nightmare after an accident where Tesla couldn't get parts for their own car so he lived in loaners for months and months before Tesla had to basically total his Model S. But I consider that a Tesla mismanagement problem, not an EV problem.
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The accident thing is real. Damage to the battery pack usually means the car is totaled, where an ICE vehicle might need a $2 K repair. I infer insurance costs are higher.
The other type that could use an EV is a traditional 2 car family where mom drives a minivan and Dad uses the EV to go to work and back.
The Chevy Bolt would be decent for that situation, and I read they are going to continue making an updated version of it.
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you really have to be motivated to save the planet to drive one of these
(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_bolt-ev_4dr-hatchback_2lt_fq_oem_1_600.jpg)
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you really have to be motivated to save the planet to drive one of these
(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_bolt-ev_4dr-hatchback_2lt_fq_oem_1_600.jpg)
Yeah, I think the only good-looking Tesla is the Model S, and the Model 3 is hideous. But it's better than this.
And this is trash:
(https://i.imgur.com/kLhFnaZ.jpg)
And it looks even worse in person.
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not just the look
I'd love to see you try to get in and then back out of the backseat of the Bolt
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not just the look
I'd love to see you try to get in and then back out of the backseat of the Bolt
I'm not sure I could get in and out of the front seat.
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it also seems that a person would have to drive many many miles in an EV charging at home to break even on the financial equation
especially with gas prices finally dropping
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Yup, even with the tax credit. The newer hybrids often offer better acceleration and better fuel economy.
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Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh. 33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles.
Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles. Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.
If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective. No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit.
110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged. I'd need 210 hours per day. I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask.
A new battery for an electric car is a hulluva lot more $$$ than a new battery for a gas car.
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EV batteries apparently last the basic life of the vehicle, one way or the other, barring an accident.
The Tesla batteries last quite a long time apparently.
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I'm thinking about looking into hybrids.
Who makes them these days?
Any good ones that are NOT ugly?
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(https://i.imgur.com/KI3fqXr.png)
The 2023 Ferrari 296 GTS—we drive Ferrari’s plug-in hybrid convertible | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/the-2023-ferrari-296-gts-we-drive-ferraris-plug-in-hybrid-convertible/)
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How about practical?
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Best Hybrid SUVs for 2023 & 2024 - Road & Track (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/rankings/g44693807/best-hybrid-suvs/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=dda_ga_rt_md_bm_prog_org_us_g44693807&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3uGqBhDdARIsAFeJ5r0t0vu7_QERDuJ9_RglFWCkFSFGG7Q78bg4dxteSfxX1K9ZNGYMRQgaAqD3EALw_wcB)
These are mostly PHEVs. I'm looking at the Hyundai Tucson hybrid.
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Volvo looks good to me.
Does M-B not do hybrids? They seem to be all-in on EV these days.
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2023 Mercedes-Benz GLC 300 4Matic Hybrid Review: Fuel-Sipping Luxury | GearJunkie (https://gearjunkie.com/motors/2023-mercedes-benz-glc-300-4matic-hybrid-review)
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Certified 2021 Volvo XC60 Recharge Plug-In Hybrid T8 Inscription Expression For Sale $40,900 | Cars.com (https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/e082b607-78f4-4dbe-b6a5-47a19d96ccd9/?attribution_type=se_rp)
Not bad.
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2023 MERCEDES GLC SUV 300 e 4MATIC PLUG-IN HYBRID 313 HP POV TEST DRIVE - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2LkBHttd4Q)
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2023 Mercedes-Benz GLC to Start from $48,250 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43260324/2023-mercedes-benz-glc-pricing-revealed/)
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What is a "mild hybrid" drive?
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While a full hybrid can drive on battery power alone and operate in fuel efficient, zero emissions mode up to 62% of the time on average (due to its powerful battery), a mild hybrid cannot drive on pure battery alone and therefore delivers considerably fewer benefits than a full hybrid.
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The "full hydrids" tend to be plug in hybrids (PHEVs). The cost IMHO is not worth going to PHEV.
Regular hybrids usually excel at city fuel economy because they recover energy in braking.
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What's a mild hybrid? And how's it different to a full hybrid? | Top Gear (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/whats-mild-hybrid-and-hows-it-different-full-hybrid)
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it also seems that a person would have to drive many many miles in an EV charging at home to break even on the financial equation
especially with gas prices finally dropping
What BEV and what ICEV vehicles are you using as the basis of this economic comparison?
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all of them
the upfront cost seems high for electrics, and then insurance
not so sure about trade/resell value / depreciation
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all of them
the upfront cost seems high for electrics, and then insurance
not so sure about trade/resell value / depreciation
Lowest price Model 3 brand new on the Tesla web site for existing inventory is a shade over $36K. Drop the $7500 tax credit on that and it's a net of $28.5K. That's the same as a base model Camry Hybrid.
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Lowest price Model 3 brand new on the Tesla web site for existing inventory is a shade over $36K. Drop the $7500 tax credit on that and it's a net of $28.5K. That's the same as a base model Camry Hybrid.
Except it's not the same.
The Model 3 interior sucks. The seats suck. Getting in and out sucks (I'm 5-9). Forget about the back seats. The ride sucks.
The Camry is a very comfortable, nice-riding car.
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how bout the Camry gasser?
the $7500 credit... is that a federal thing or better in Cali than some states?
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Except it's not the same.
The Model 3 interior sucks. The seats suck. Getting in and out sucks (I'm 5-9). Forget about the back seats. The ride sucks.
The Camry is a very comfortable, nice-riding car.
Hell, I compared a Tesla to a Toyota as an insult to Tesla owners who think they should be compared to BMW...
I didn't know I was insulting Toyota by comparing them to Tesla... :57:
how bout the Camry gasser?
the $7500 credit... is that a federal thing or better in Cali than some states?
Federal.
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hah, and folks don't like subsidies for ethanol
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Hell, I compared a Tesla to a Toyota as an insult to Tesla owners who think they should be compared to BMW...
I didn't know I was insulting Toyota by comparing them to Tesla... :57:
Federal.
I've driven both as rentals. No comparison. Tesla sucks.
Even the S.
No comparison to and M-B S class or BMW 7 series - or even the E class or 5 series.
Not even close.
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I rode in a Tesla X, the SUV-like version. My son had rented it for a trip. My wife liked it. I thought it was decent, they are spartan inside, which is OK with me The fit and finish looked OK, I didn't inspect it closely. It seemed to ride OK, the low CoG helps some with handling. I didn't drive it.
As noted above, EVs so far are not really good values, even with the $7500. And sales now are showing this to be the case. I think Toyota and Honda made better strategic decisions than Ford/GM, maybe this changes in a few years. The latter two are investing a ton of money on a risky EV bet, though they may be slowing that down now.
Were I one of them, I think I'd focus on building a CUV (compact utility vehicle) like a Bolt and the pickup truck and van, making the latter more basic "work truck" models. Then I'd try and continue with cars like the CT4 V Blackwing with a manual.
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SparkCharge "Electric Jerry Can" Makes DC Fast Charging Portable (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/sparkcharge-roadie-portable-ev-fast-charger/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1LcZNGb7ZYmlsoab1MENvncXQCxw0FDGt8UZFztoU3bv3Gd6ERbTacXYY)
a four-stack of Roadie batteries can add 60-70 miles to a single vehicle (in about an hour) or dispense 10 miles of range to seven different EVs. One caveat—the system will not charge a car above 80 percent, because the charging rate plunges at that point.
The Volt subscription costs $25 per month, which covers two charges, each of which comes with a delivery fee of $9.99. The Jolt plan costs $60 for four charges and a $5.99 delivery fee. Finally, the Bolt Subscription runs $80 for six charges plus $5.99 delivery.
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more expensive than the original Jerry Can
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Then I'd try and continue with cars like the CT4 V Blackwing with a manual.
and a LARGE Sedan
with big tailfins
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more expensive than the original Jerry Can
Yeah, looked pricey to me, but at least is an example of how EVs can be recharged if they run out completely.
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(https://i.imgur.com/RrYWPGJ.jpg)
put some batteries in this.....
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2024 Chevy Equinox EV Starts Under $35,000, and Qualifies for Federal Tax Credit (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-equinox-ev-price-msrp/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1eAp4HrsOMkLc7ir54hcTCg36Q69bxWTvqqNrP-yCoPyMR78JCpvhf6wk)
When the upcoming all-new Equinox EV was announced last September, Chevy promised the base model would offer 210 horsepower, 242 lb-ft of torque, and an estimated 250 miles of range for a price that would be "around $30,000." Today, Chevy has confirmed the 1LT will start at $34,995 (including destination and freight charges but not taxes), but is withholding further content and packaging details. It's safe to assume that pricing is for the base, front-wheel drive 1LT trim, with a more expensive all-wheel drive 1LT version also likely to be offered.
(https://i.imgur.com/rO2C7iV.png)
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well, technically $34,995 is under $35K
the gasser???
$26,600†
Starting MSRP
$8395 will buy some gasoline and oli changes
and you don't need to rewire the garage
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The other issue is it probably won't be $35 K when it actually becomes available. You would get the $7500 tax credit, so that makes up some difference.
But we've all noted the gas savings isn't that great in most places.
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How much energy goes into making the batteries, what is the energy source, and what is the energy to ship them here from the CCP?
I've read elsewhere that it can take up to 7 years before an EV becomes carbon-neutral.
Just in time to buy a new battery.
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of all the folks railing against the green new deal and throwing money uselessly at a problem
I don't hear of much push to eliminate the $7500 credit
I suppose there is an end date when it expires, although a quick google search didn't show one.
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Ultium batteries are assembled in the US (GM). I don't know how much energy is needed to make them. The Tesla battery packs are lasting over 200 K miles (usually).
Because EVs are dirtier to build but cleaner to drive, Woodley explained, they must meet certain mileage thresholds before environmental advantages are realized. In the U.S., the typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.Aug 28, 2023
When buying an EV increases your carbon footprint — Harvard Gazette (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-an-ev-increases-your-carbon-footprint/#:~:text=Because EVs are dirtier to,before netting any emissions benefits.)
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The $7500 credit is garbage for those of us taxpayers who will not buy EV's.
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The tax benefit, which was recently modified by the Inflation Reduction Act for years 2023 through 2032, allows for a maximum credit of $7,500 for new EVs, and up to $4,000, limited to 30% of the sale price, for used EVs.
EV Tax Credit 2023-2024: How It Works, What Qualifies - NerdWallet (https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-electric-vehicle-tax-credit)
One plug in hybrid gets the credit. Nothing else.
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Ultium batteries are assembled in the US (GM). I don't know how much energy is needed to make them. The Tesla battery packs are lasting over 200 K miles (usually).
Because EVs are dirtier to build but cleaner to drive, Woodley explained, they must meet certain mileage thresholds before environmental advantages are realized. In the U.S., the typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.Aug 28, 2023
When buying an EV increases your carbon footprint — Harvard Gazette (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-an-ev-increases-your-carbon-footprint/#:~:text=Because EVs are dirtier to,before netting any emissions benefits.)
We drive about 6-8K miles per year.
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The tax benefit, which was recently modified by the Inflation Reduction Act for years 2023 through 2032, allows for a maximum credit of $7,500 for new EVs, and up to $4,000, limited to 30% of the sale price, for used EVs.
Hybrids?
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The $7500 credit is garbage for those of us taxpayers who will not buy EV's.
It's also a regressive "tax", because very few lower income people will buy an EV. It's mostly for the better off folks. There is a $4000 credit for used EVs.
And it's a subsidy for GM et al. They can price EVs with that in mind.
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How much energy goes into making the batteries, what is the energy source, and what is the energy to ship them here from the CCP?
I've read elsewhere that it can take up to 7 years before an EV becomes carbon-neutral.
Just in time to buy a new battery.
great questions for why the Gov would give tax credits for a something
but for me, being selfish.....
What is cheaper to operate for a 5 year or 10 year period?
Total cost of ownership
Can I save $1000 in 5 years and $2000 in 10 years?
or will it cost me more to operate an EV?
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At this point in time, I would NOT buy an EV. I would think about a plugin hybrid, though they cost a lot more than regular hybrids. My GUESS is that in a decade or so, EVs will start to look appealing overall, infrastructure is better, batteries are better, etc.
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typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.
I would hope this takes into account the percentage of coal powered generation
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I think this whole thing is a scam. Sorry.
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you're not really sorry
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I don't view it as any kind of scam, EVs in general. I think we're headed in that direction, it's just not NOW, except for the early adopter types. It's not going to "save the world" from CC of course. It will eventually cut demand for oil globally, estimates are peak oil usage will be 2030. That means less demand and perhaps lower prices, though oil producers see it coming also.
Still, the EIA projects half the cars in the US will still be ICE by 2050. That's probably about right.
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great questions for why the Gov would give tax credits for a something
but for me, being selfish.....
What is cheaper to operate for a 5 year or 10 year period?
Total cost of ownership
Can I save $1000 in 5 years and $2000 in 10 years?
or will it cost me more to operate an EV?
You're gonna have to do the math yourself. Lot of variables:
- Miles driven/year
- Whether you buy new or used (I don't think the used EV market is as developed)
- How long you keep a vehicle; this impacts any potential "repayment" period as well as how mature the used EV market will be at the time you want to move off that car to something else
- Local gas prices vs local electricity prices, and not your "marginal" kWh value, but also factoring in whether your electric provider offers rebates to EV owners or ToU pricing that will mean you get cheaper rates at the time you're likely charging (overnight)
- How difficult/pricy it will be to install an L2 home charger; for many they already have sufficient electrical service and the 240V is routed to the garage, but if not it can get expensive
Generally BEVs are cheaper to operate. However whether you'll actually save money would require you to look at specific vehicles and price points you'd be looking into, and whether the operation costs are going to be enough to have a net benefit for your own specific use case.
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I think this whole thing is a scam. Sorry.
I think you have to decouple BEVs from the gov't actions around BEVs.
The people I know with BEVs love them. They don't think they're a scam.
Many talk about one of the un-heralded advantage of BEVs... If you charge at home, you pretty much never have to think about "fueling" your vehicle. Far from "range anxiety", one Tesla owner was talking about how he was driving his wife's ICEV one day and how annoying it was to get into it and realize 10 minutes into his drive that it was low on gas and he was going to have to fill it just to complete basic errands that day. With a BEV, you get home, plug it in, and it's ready to go the next morning. For most owners, you only have to think about charging if you're taking a road trip.
On top of that, there are technical advantages. Electric motors offer better low-end torque than gas engines. Power on tap whenever you need it. They're mechanically less complex than gas engines. Regen braking means you wear out brakes less often, and there is generally less scheduled maintenance for a BEV. Batteries are heavy, but because you can make the packs modular it gives you more freedom in where you place weight in a vehicle and usually leads to lower CoG which reduces roll while cornering.
Are there also downsides? Yes. But BEVs in general are no scam.
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I obviously have my doubts that an EV can even break even with my own math
I'll sit back and wait until it becomes apparent that I'd be foolish to be driving a gasser
and by 2050 I won't be doing much driving - mostly short trips to doctors and such
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With a BEV, you get home, plug it in, and it's ready to go the next morning. For most owners, you only have to think about charging if you're taking a road trip.
well, you do need to remember to plug it in
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I obviously have my doubts that an EV can even break even with my own math
I'll sit back and wait until it becomes apparent that I'd be foolish to be driving a gasser
and by 2050 I won't be doing much driving - mostly short trips to doctors and such
Fair enough. As I've mentioned, when I was last looking at a vehicle (2017) there wasn't a suitable EV for my use case (3 row seating for a family) in my price point, and there wasn't sufficient EV infrastructure to do it. And renting, I wasn't going to install an L2 charger in my landlord's house. And I don't like Tesla, so given that they were pretty much the only game in town, it made no sense.
My next vehicle purchase will probably be around 2027, when kids start leaving the nest. By that time most of my concerns about the EV market will no longer be true. My vehicle needs will have changed so I have more flexibility in what I buy (i.e. no need for three rows). Infrastructure (esp. in CA) will be plentiful, not only for Tesla, but for other brands. Frankly I think it already is. The other brands on the market should have more maturity so I can legitimately avoid Tesla and still have multiple good options.
Will I ultimately go BEV? I don't know. It'll largely be an economic calculation, and if I'm still working from home most of the time, I won't be putting on enough miles that I think the economics will matter much. If I'm commuting every day, or if I change something job-wise that means my responsibilities require even more driving than that? Well then it might make more sense.
But I find most people railing against EVs are rolling out tired, old, scare tactics. Being in California and seeing *SO* many of them on the road (and knowing many BEV owners), those tactics don't ring true.
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well, you do need to remember to plug it in
Yes, but it also depends how much you drive. If you are driving say 50 miles a day on average, you actually may only "need" to plug in once or twice a week.
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yup, that's why a person may forget.
Just like forgetting to fill up at the gas station
EVs and gassers are very similar - just different fuel
being stranded in a frozen traffic jam in a gasser that runs out of fuel gets just as cold just as fast as an EV that runs out of charge
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But I find most people railing against EVs are rolling out tired, old, scare tactics. Being in California and seeing *SO* many of them on the road (and knowing many BEV owners), those tactics don't ring true.
While anecdotal, they are drinking the Kool-Aid IMO.
I know EV owners who wish they weren't. Both here and in Illinois/Wisconsin.
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yup, that's why a person may forget.
Just like forgetting to fill up at the gas station
EVs and gassers are very similar - just different fuel
being stranded in a frozen traffic jam in a gasser that runs out of fuel gets just as cold just as fast as an EV that runs out of charge
Ahh. Well if we're arguing about saving people from their own stupidity, it's going to be a LONG discussion in this country. There's a lot of it to go around.
The only time in my life that I've run out of gas was the day that I realized my gas gauge didn't work--it would register 1/4 tank all the way from when the truck had 1/4 tank down to when the tank was empty. That was a malfunction, not forgetfulness.
In fact, since that day I never ran out of gas again--despite the fact that I never fixed the gauge and so the truck never gave me a "low fuel" light on the dashboard. I just had to remember to refill shortly after the gauge reached 1/4 tank, which I unfailingly did.
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While anecdotal, they are drinking the Kool-Aid IMO.
I know EV owners who wish they weren't. Both here and in Illinois/Wisconsin.
Perhaps some are drinking the Kool-Aid. IMO Tesla owners can sometimes be as fanatical about the brand as Apple folks. Sometimes when you talk yourself into something (especially given the size of an EV purchase) you become attached and rationalize it instead of admitting you're wrong. And Tesla haters (of which I sorta am one) can be as fanatical the opposite way as Android folks.
I'm sure IL/WI are well behind CA when it comes to EV infrastructure. And while that might be problematic for Tesla owners, the fact that Tesla is well ahead in infrastructure build-out would mean that it's MUCH more problematic for non-Tesla owners. So that might color the experience somewhat.
But I would say that 99% of EV criticism I hear comes from people who have never owned an EV (and often vow they never will so you could legitimately call them anti-EV), not from regretful EV owners or former owners.
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I only know one EV owner. Wife's ex has a Tesla, which I don't think he uses very much. He is by most metrics "wealthy" and like much of what he owns, he bought a Tesla because he can, and because he thought it would be cool. No idea how he likes it, but again, I don't think he uses it much. If the battery gets damaged and he had to buy another one or just total it and move on, he wouldn't care.
Thus, in my little sphere, that's who can have an EV. Sure ain't me.
When I visit Austin, I see quite a few Teslas on the road. Of course, there are quite a few wealthy people in Austin, but I suspect not all the drivers I see are wealthy, but rather people who for one reason or another decided that's what they needed. But I will say that in my experience, many, many, many people don't manage their money wisely and a lot of those people who aren't wealthy, it wouldn't surprise me to learn they shouldn't be driving Teslas, but in a place like Austin you're going to get more people ideologically attached to that whether they can reasonably afford it or not.
And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior.
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"Early adopters" tend usually to be missionaries for their product. I've talked to a few EV owners and they get a bit over the top, I think, with their praise of it. The acceleration is often noted as "great", which is nice of course.
We here know the downsides, and apparently GM and Ford and others lose heavily on every one they sell. Then you have the $7500, which really is a gift to the car makers. If I lived in CA, I'd be more interested sooner. But the math really doesn't work well for most of us, and I don't know what insurance is going to end up being.
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I've rented them - Hertz has a push for that. I'd never buy one as the result of my 3 experiences. 3 strikes, ya know?
Last rental I did I hybrid and came away pleased. It was a small Toyota SUV.
This coming rental (in December) will be the same, or equal.
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And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior.
You are correct.
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And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior.
Amen!
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You are correct.
It's not even a debate.
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EV drivers and Apple cultists and Crossfit people are all basically the same people.
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and those pelaton freaks
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EV drivers and Apple cultists and Crossfit people are all basically the same people.
Reminds of a joke I heard:
A vegan, an atheist, a crossfitter, and a Texan walk into a bar. I know this because they all told me within 5 minutes.
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My wife is a devotee of reformer pilates, as I've mentioned before, and she prosetylizes about that to all in hearing range, not just pilates, but reformer pilates.
She gave lessons to me as a birthday present, and I gave it a go for a bit. She goes three times a week, private lessons.
I used to be that way about synthetic oil at times.
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I only know one EV owner. Wife's ex has a Tesla, which I don't think he uses very much. He is by most metrics "wealthy" and like much of what he owns, he bought a Tesla because he can, and because he thought it would be cool. No idea how he likes it, but again, I don't think he uses it much. If the battery gets damaged and he had to buy another one or just total it and move on, he wouldn't care.
Thus, in my little sphere, that's who can have an EV. Sure ain't me.
When I visit Austin, I see quite a few Teslas on the road. Of course, there are quite a few wealthy people in Austin, but I suspect not all the drivers I see are wealthy, but rather people who for one reason or another decided that's what they needed. But I will say that in my experience, many, many, many people don't manage their money wisely and a lot of those people who aren't wealthy, it wouldn't surprise me to learn they shouldn't be driving Teslas, but in a place like Austin you're going to get more people ideologically attached to that whether they can reasonably afford it or not.
And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior.
Yeah, a lot of people shouldn't be driving Lexus or BMW or Mercs either... As I've mentioned, in TOO many cases you have people leasing these cars because they want to drive a nicer car than they can legitimately afford.
Oh and agree with you on Android.
"Early adopters" tend usually to be missionaries for their product. I've talked to a few EV owners and they get a bit over the top, I think, with their praise of it. The acceleration is often noted as "great", which is nice of course.
We here know the downsides, and apparently GM and Ford and others lose heavily on every one they sell. Then you have the $7500, which really is a gift to the car makers. If I lived in CA, I'd be more interested sooner. But the math really doesn't work well for most of us, and I don't know what insurance is going to end up being.
Agreed re: early adopters. It's like converts to anything, be it religion, lifestyle (i.e. veganism), politics, etc. It's easy to have the rose-colored glasses on. And I'm not surprised by losses... You're making large fixed investments in your infrastructure to support BEV and you (in early segments) have to amortize the investments against very limited sales. OF COURSE you're going to lose money, at least net, for a while. The real question is what is the gross profit on any given vehicle if you're only counting actual direct input costs, and not overhead?
I do think the people here overstate the downsides. That doesn't mean the math works out for individual use cases, of course. But I think a lot of people here take a blanket negative approach to EVs that I don't understand the justification.
I've rented them - Hertz has a push for that. I'd never buy one as the result of my 3 experiences. 3 strikes, ya know?
Last rental I did I hybrid and came away pleased. It was a small Toyota SUV.
This coming rental (in December) will be the same, or equal.
I've never driven a Tesla. Like you, I think of them as a wannabe luxury brand (due to EV price point) with the fit & finish and quality control of a Yugo. It's the reason I don't really see myself considering a Tesla if I go BEV in a couple years. I think Musk is a charlatan and they're a disruptor but still not all that great of an automaker. I also wouldn't touch Rivian, or Lucid (not that I can afford Lucid).
I want to see what the real automakers actually have come up with by then. They're all a little behind Tesla on the technology learning curve IMHO, but I think once they get there they'll put out better products than Tesla is capable of.
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and those pelaton freaks
Hey, I do mostly try to keep that one to myself lol...
I've mentioned it a few times, but I haven't been proselytizing...
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One of my pet peeves was seeing drivers in some BMW driving it like they would a Honda Accord.
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My work phone is an iPhone. Trying to use it is like trying to write Japanese in Russian.
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I had an Android phone, which was fine. My step son works for Apple and got me an iPhone, which also works fine.
My wife is an iPhone 14 and its camera is quite good. I think it works fine also.
I never answer a phone call unless the caller is on my list.
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I do think the people here overstate the downsides. That doesn't mean the math works out for individual use cases, of course. But I think a lot of people here take a blanket negative approach to EVs that I don't understand the justification.
I've never driven a Tesla. Like you, I think of them as a wannabe luxury brand (due to EV price point) with the fit & finish and quality control of a Yugo. It's the reason I don't really see myself considering a Tesla if I go BEV in a couple years. I think Musk is a charlatan and they're a disruptor but still not all that great of an automaker. I also wouldn't touch Rivian, or Lucid (not that I can afford Lucid).
Elsewhere you wrote that Tesla is ahead of other EVs in most areas, so I'm curious why you think Musk/Tesla are hucksters.
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Elsewhere you wrote that Tesla is ahead of other EVs in most areas, so I'm curious why you think Musk/Tesla are hucksters.
Good question. I can see why it seems contradictory.
First, it's not so much Tesla. It's Musk. Some of what I see as Tesla's issues are partly due to Musk's leadership, but overall I think Tesla has a bunch of fine engineers who are working hard. And it's based on their work that Tesla has the first-mover advantage in EVs that they have, despite Musk getting the credit. And I think it's some of the things Musk has been doing that could squander that first-mover advantage once the big boys enter the chat.
I'd say the biggest thing with Musk is that you never know whether what comes out of his mouth will happen. What you DO know is that it won't happen on the timeline he's promising. Or that it'll live up to his billing (i.e. full self driving, which is still a pipe dream). All I have to do is count the number of Tesla robotaxis on the road (hint: it's zero) to point that out. And how are those solar roofs going? Hyperloop anyone?
And then there's the fact that he's basically a little boy with a billionaire's budget, and some of his decisions are screwing up the first-mover advantage. I.e. who in their right mind wants a Cybertruck? It's like he's an 8 year old who drew it on a napkin with the Delorean (not a model for successful automaking lol) as inspiration. If he wanted to make a truck, focus on a truck you can actually manufacture, and put it on a timeline that will actually beat the alternative instead of being years behind Rivian and falling behind Ford of all companies.
From a business perspective, Musk seemingly started with the idea that everything legacy automakers do is stupid, and he was going to reinvent the wheel. A lot of the issues with Teslas from a repair/insurability standpoint IMHO has to do with the fact that he took a completely different approach to supply chain than other automakers. "Move fast and break stuff" is great in tech--it's not so great when you have to get parts for a car that you built 4 years ago that you chose lowest-cost suppliers who didn't have the embedded/industrial supply chain mentality and would commit to long product life cycles. So now you have a car you can't repair because you changed things every 3 months. That was fine in startup mode, but eventually you have to grow up and realize that a lot of the stuff legacy automakers do is not because they're stupid, or obsolete, or aren't thinking right--they do it because they know their business model. And some of it is BS too. "Look everyone, we have a tablet in our car!" Great, something that you can't control anything in the car w/o *looking* at a touchscreen and navigating menus. That's safe to do when driving! Touchscreens are one of my pet peeves in cars lol...
I will give Musk credit. I don't think the EV market would be where it is if not for him. He built that first-mover advantage by attacking a market before it was really viable, and just brute-forcing his way in. He pushed to not only high volume manufacturing, but profitability. Which was questionable whether they'd get there a few years ago. Heck, at one point on this very board (~2019 IIRC) I spoke of them having a liquidity crisis and needing a capital raise just a few months after saying they had plenty of capital--and the way you could tell it was a crisis was the terms they had to meet to get the money. And they weathered the storm and they're viable right now.
But for all the ways he bills Tesla as a tech company and not an automaker, he doesn't have a defensible technology moat. He's not vertically integrated in batteries, and most of the tech seems to be Panasonic's, not Tesla's. Full self driving doesn't appear to be on a timeline where he's going to win there. He's late on a truck. His semi tractor is still a prototype. He's full of a lot of promises, and promises are great when you have no competition. But the competition has come to the party, and they're starting to replace his vaporware with actual products.
Tesla has a lead because they have good people, and because they had a head start. But without a defensible technology moat, better-capitalized companies that REALLY know how to make cars are going to quickly close that lead. And what happens to Tesla at that point?
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Good question. I can see why it seems contradictory.
First, it's not so much Tesla. It's Musk. Some of what I see as Tesla's issues are partly due to Musk's leadership, but overall I think Tesla has a bunch of fine engineers who are working hard. And it's based on their work that Tesla has the first-mover advantage in EVs that they have, despite Musk getting the credit. And I think it's some of the things Musk has been doing that could squander that first-mover advantage once the big boys enter the chat.
I'd say the biggest thing with Musk is that you never know whether what comes out of his mouth will happen. What you DO know is that it won't happen on the timeline he's promising. Or that it'll live up to his billing (i.e. full self driving, which is still a pipe dream). All I have to do is count the number of Tesla robotaxis on the road (hint: it's zero) to point that out. And how are those solar roofs going? Hyperloop anyone?
And then there's the fact that he's basically a little boy with a billionaire's budget, and some of his decisions are screwing up the first-mover advantage. I.e. who in their right mind wants a Cybertruck? It's like he's an 8 year old who drew it on a napkin with the Delorean (not a model for successful automaking lol) as inspiration. If he wanted to make a truck, focus on a truck you can actually manufacture, and put it on a timeline that will actually beat the alternative instead of being years behind Rivian and falling behind Ford of all companies.
From a business perspective, Musk seemingly started with the idea that everything legacy automakers do is stupid, and he was going to reinvent the wheel. A lot of the issues with Teslas from a repair/insurability standpoint IMHO has to do with the fact that he took a completely different approach to supply chain than other automakers. "Move fast and break stuff" is great in tech--it's not so great when you have to get parts for a car that you built 4 years ago that you chose lowest-cost suppliers who didn't have the embedded/industrial supply chain mentality and would commit to long product life cycles. So now you have a car you can't repair because you changed things every 3 months. That was fine in startup mode, but eventually you have to grow up and realize that a lot of the stuff legacy automakers do is not because they're stupid, or obsolete, or aren't thinking right--they do it because they know their business model. And some of it is BS too. "Look everyone, we have a tablet in our car!" Great, something that you can't control anything in the car w/o *looking* at a touchscreen and navigating menus. That's safe to do when driving! Touchscreens are one of my pet peeves in cars lol...
I will give Musk credit. I don't think the EV market would be where it is if not for him. He built that first-mover advantage by attacking a market before it was really viable, and just brute-forcing his way in. He pushed to not only high volume manufacturing, but profitability. Which was questionable whether they'd get there a few years ago. Heck, at one point on this very board (~2019 IIRC) I spoke of them having a liquidity crisis and needing a capital raise just a few months after saying they had plenty of capital--and the way you could tell it was a crisis was the terms they had to meet to get the money. And they weathered the storm and they're viable right now.
But for all the ways he bills Tesla as a tech company and not an automaker, he doesn't have a defensible technology moat. He's not vertically integrated in batteries, and most of the tech seems to be Panasonic's, not Tesla's. Full self driving doesn't appear to be on a timeline where he's going to win there. He's late on a truck. His semi tractor is still a prototype. He's full of a lot of promises, and promises are great when you have no competition. But the competition has come to the party, and they're starting to replace his vaporware with actual products.
Tesla has a lead because they have good people, and because they had a head start. But without a defensible technology moat, better-capitalized companies that REALLY know how to make cars are going to quickly close that lead. And what happens to Tesla at that point?
GM or Ford buys it and runs it into the ground?
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Hyundai Doubles Down on Hybrids and EVs as Competitors Back Off (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/hyundai-electrification-strategy-ev-phev-hybrid-jose-munoz-interview/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3xgU6p_0pQkotk_NHrTpl1syf8falPHkXVkNKVGq1RjcvjFkg5YezvqGE)
At the moment, I'm most interesting in the Tucson Hybrid, but still holding off a while. It's the only one with ventilated seats which my wife says she wants (I don't think they do much). I have yet to drive one.
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In my experience, generally, the Hyundai family of vehicles is under-powered.
I drove a Genesis and it was fine but those cost money.
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That is a concern, I agree, coming off the GTI. The Tucson hybrid has more power than the regular one, and the plugin has more power than that, but is quite a bit more expensive. My daughter leased a regular Tucson and said it had plenty of pep, we'll see when we drive it. 7.7 seconds is only "OK". C&D got it in 7.1 seconds, they use a different technique on their runs. I'm trying to avoid any CVT and DCT transmission types for one thing. I'd like decent mpg. My wife wants a "deluxe" model with ventilated seats, which narrows the field.
Really, I just want to keep the GTI.
2023 Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Prices, Reviews, and Pictures | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/tucson/2023/hybrid/#:~:text=In our testing the Tucson,power when you need it.)
How does the Tucson Hybrid drive? You might not guess it, but the Tucson Hybrid is a standout athlete in the hybrid SUV class. It provides a smooth, comfortable driving experience with few faults: The steering is crisp, its handling is composed around sharp turns, and the hybrid powertrain is a willing sprinter. In our testing the Tucson Hybrid zipped from 0 to 60 mph in 7.7 seconds, beating out the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid as the quickest in the class.
It feels good around town too. The traditional six-speed automatic transmission is eager to deliver power when you need it. We also like the responsive brakes. Beware that clunky gear shifts are sometimes apparent at low speeds, and the crossover dives forward a bit under hard braking. But in all it's an enjoyable drive, and the handoff between electric power and the engine is excellent.
2023 Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/tucson-hybrid-2023)
At our test track, our loaded Limited hybrid test vehicle (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38591574/2022-hyundai-tucson-hybrid-by-the-numbers/) managed a 7.1-second run to 60 mph. While the Tucson is no sports car, its handling is confident, it's got solid steering, and a comfortable ride. The richest part of the Tucson drive is its quiet cruising speed that lends itself to a more luxurious experience otherwise lost in this affordable-minded segment of SUVs.
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2025 Volvo EX30 First Drive: A Hit in the Making (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025-volvo-ex30-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2pCQ2u1vE2uppi_PGYPofzw3v6ImrGRIRAvuqQIz3vjpeslxM7uM_8k2Q)
Poke around the automotive world a bit these days, and you'll trip over half a dozen doom and gloom headlines predicting a sudden collapse of the EV market in America. Never mind that EV sales and market share are up year over year, quarter over quarter, and month over month and continuing to climb. These stories all point to the same canary in the lithium mine: the number of EVs on dealer lots and how long it takes to sell them. They always seem to leave out the part where the vast majority of EVs today are very expensive, most starting at more than $48,000 (the average selling price of a new car in America) and many of the less expensive ones blowing past that figure as soon as you've added all-wheel drive.
The EX30? It starts at $36,245 and fully loaded it's $49,195. (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-volvo-ex30-price-msrp/)That alone will bring people in the doors, and the fact it's not only not a penalty box but actually a really good little car will seal the deal. If they lease, they'll even be eligible for a tax credit despite the fact EX30s will be built in China and Belgium (likely a $3,750 credit as the batteries are made in China, which disqualifies it from getting the full $7,500 credit). Because the car is made outside the U.S. and its batteries come from China, it isn't eligible for any federal purchase tax credits, but with a price this low it doesn't need them to hook potential shoppers.
Meh.
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Big time Meh on that one. Shame on you, Volvo.
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Comparison Test: Our Long-Term Chevy Blazer EV Meets Its Biggest Competitors | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/our-long-term-chevy-blazer-ev-meets-its-biggest-competition.html?fbclid=IwAR0HHm1l3v7GHIzrYSZ32DMV6c-9B1S4EYUe3hwkYs1ms-aMDtQB5uIgvXQ)
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2025 Cadillac Escalade IQ Officially Here: Everything You Need to Know (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44765497/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2X85bPORBDgh6Q7QyJLPh4tK0DG8fFZNn0k0RnlSPcIH7jMxsRNmHfHMw)
This means you can add up to 100 miles of range to the battery pack in as little as 10 minutes of charge time. A standard Level 1 charger should provide up to 14.8 miles per hour, whereas a Level 2 charger can provide up to 37 miles in an hour, according to Cadillac. The SUV will also support bidirectional charging capabilities (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44753255/gm-adds-vehicle-to-home-generator-ev-linup/), allowing customers to power their homes if it is properly equipped.
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GM or Ford buys it and runs it into the ground?
BTW meant to reply to this...
The problem is that nobody can afford to buy Tesla unless it's already been run into the ground. They've got a (currently) $766B market cap. Ford's is $40B.
The kind of slide they'd need to undergo to be an acquisition target would be insane.
It'd be more likely that Tesla would buy Ford and run it into the ground. He's already done that with $44B buying Twitter X and all he seems to be accomplishing is lighting money on fire.
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What is the current best scenario for buying an EV? Presume you get the $7500 (or not if commercial).
We have delivery vans here coming and going frequently, they usually idle, and are gasoline powered. I don't know how far they go in a day. A basic delivery van that costs say $45,000 and has a 125 mile range... is that a good proposition?
The first EV I rode in was in Copenhagen, a VW ID4 I think. It was quiet and smooth and the driver liked it, he said (we used him several times). He said range was never an issue for him.
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How to Take an EV Road Trip - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/taking-ev-road-trip/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand)
I found this a bit interesting. Note he says charging his Leaf the first time cost $13.75 while his much larger Chrysler Pacific would have used about $20 in gas, at $4.09 per gallon. Gas prices here are well under $3 now.
Charging away from home is much pricier, 2-3x home charging.
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EVs Are Supposed to Be Cheap to Maintain—Our Kia EV6 Isn't So Far (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-kia-ev6-wind-awd-yearlong-review-update-5-service-costs/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GSxYF65nqXLm_firzX4SMGOkNLiwTxDGSnsJsrKPwDdlp4TD7wetiG_4)
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The negative impact on the climate from passenger vehicles, which is considerable, could have dropped by more than 30% over the past decade if not for the world’s appetite for large cars, a new report from the Global Fuel Economy Initiative suggests.
Sport utility vehicles, or SUVs, now account for more than half of all new car sales across the globe, the group said, and it’s not alone. The International Energy Agency, using a narrower definition of SUV, estimates they make up nearly half.
Over the years these cars have gotten bigger and so has their cost to the climate, as carbon dioxide emissions “are almost directly proportional to fuel use” for gas-powered cars. The carbon that goes in at the pump comes out the tailpipe.
Transportation is responsible for around one-quarter of all the climate-warming gases that come from energy, and much of that is attributable to passenger transport, according to the International Energy Agency.
But the negative environmental impact from SUVs could have been reduced by more than one-third between 2010 and 2022, if people had just continued buying the same size cars, according to the initiative, which is a global partnership of cleaner vehicle groups.
One fix for this could be electric vehicles.
Meanwhile, smaller vehicles, or sedans, have lost a lot of ground in the U.S. market over the past decade. In 2012, sedans accounted for 50% of the U.S. auto retail space, with SUVs at just over 30%, and trucks at 13.5%, according to car-buying resource Edmunds. By 2022, U.S. sedan share dropped to 21%, while SUVs hit 54.5% and trucks grew to 20%.
Large SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe, Toyota Sequoia, or Nissan Armada have highway gas mileages of 28, 24, and 19, respectively. But even the most efficient SUVs will be less efficient than sedans because SUVs weigh so much more. A sign of progress, however, is that compact SUVs, such as the Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V (at 35 and 34 highway miles-per-gallon, respectively) are now leading the U.S. SUV market, accounting for about 18% of new vehicle sales last year.
More efforts by the U.S. Department of Transportation, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, are also underway to improve gas-powered vehicle fuel economy and tailpipe emissions. Some initiatives could include SUVs, which has the industry up in arms.
Until recently, consumers had few electric models to choose from if they wanted to reduce the impact of their own transportation. A majority of early electrified car options were sedans, particularly in the luxury segment.
More automakers are launching larger EV types, but those could require even heavier batteries onboard. The environmental aspect also needs to be weighed if an SUV is replaced by an EV, said Loren McDonald, CEO of market analysis firm EVAdoption. “Just electrifying doesn’t get us much if we also don’t focus on weight and efficiency of these vehicles and smaller battery packs,” McDonald said.
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Of course this is happening.
Voice of the Customer (evvoiceofthecustomer.com) (https://evvoiceofthecustomer.com/)
Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships -- even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.
While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.
Mr. President, no government agency, no think tank, and no polling firm knows more about the automobile customer than us. We talk to customers every day. As retail automotive dealerships, we are agnostic as to what we sell. Our business is to provide customers with vehicles that meet the needs of their budgets and lifestyles.
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Another Quarter, Another Record: EV Sales in the U.S. Surpass 300,000 in Q3, as Tesla Share of EV Segment Tumbles to 50% - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com) (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/)
EVs are selling of course, the issue is mfgrs are pushing them out faster than the market wants them.
Total EV sales in Q3, according to an estimate from Kelley Blue Book, hit 313,086, a 49.8% increase from the same period one year ago and an increase from the 298,039 sold in Q2. Most automakers posted sizeable gains over 2022, with Volvo, Nissan, Mercedes and Hyundai delivering increases above 200%, thanks mostly to new products entering the market.
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Another Quarter, Another Record: EV Sales in the U.S. Surpass 300,000 in Q3, as Tesla Share of EV Segment Tumbles to 50% - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com) (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/)
EVs are selling of course, the issue is mfgrs are pushing them out faster than the market wants them.
Total EV sales in Q3, according to an estimate from Kelley Blue Book, hit 313,086, a 49.8% increase from the same period one year ago and an increase from the 298,039 sold in Q2. Most automakers posted sizeable gains over 2022, with Volvo, Nissan, Mercedes and Hyundai delivering increases above 200%, thanks mostly to new products entering the market.
Exactly. EVs piling up on lots is used as an example of low demand, but clearly if sales are increasing, it means EV demand is increasing.
*Especially* when you factor in that for many of these buyers, it is their first EV, as anyone buying an EV in the last 4 years probably isn't replacing it yet, and it's likely that most of those who bought in the last 4 years were also buying their first EV.
Did automakers overbuild for the demand? Yeah, looks like. But that doesn't mean the demand for EVs isn't real or is declining.
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Those who want them will buy them, and they'll probably keep them for a long while.
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It'd be more likely that Tesla would buy Ford and run it into the ground. He's already done that with $44B buying Twitter X and all he seems to be accomplishing is lighting money on fire.
A, I don't think he bought Twitter for monetary reasons, and B, you can't run something into the ground that was already there. Twitter was massively unprofitable and ridiculously overvalued, with no forecasted trend by any reasonable assessment that it was going to change. It's still not profitable, but it is on a path where it may be, one day.
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I bought gas for #2.63 yesterday
I imagine that even if gasoline drops below $2.50 and stays there, the folks that want to buy EVs will buy EVs.
Regardless of financial sense
now, take away the $7,500 upfront tax credit and that would change things
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(https://i.imgur.com/xeXnSya.jpg)
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-dealers-letter-to-biden-electric-vehicles-fd413d98?st=h7hl07hxdgbeezt&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
The dealers’ letter is an important political signal that progressive climate coercion isn’t as popular as Democrats think. Americans don’t like to be told what to do or what they must buy. As the dealers put it, “many people just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them.” Imagine that.
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We've run the numbers on this thread before, EVs don't make financial sense in general. If you don't drive much, they don't, if you drive long distances they don't, if you need a second car to get to work, they still don't. Maybe in California they might if you charge at home with %7500 guvmint money.
You can find a Bolt now in the twenties, so maybe it costs you $22,000, and maybe that works for a second car.
I was expaining to my wife about plugin hybrids vs regular hybrids and she was inclined for the plugin, though we drive only about 6,000 miles a year, some long distance.
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A better headline is "EVs are selling, but not as fast as they are being made."
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I removed the headline as it's misleading. The article explains it well, if you read it.
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a better headline
EVs could save the world but aren't selling fast enough - Shame on you!
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Yeah, no.
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By when do you think EVs will be competitive with ICE Vs for your personal needs?
We know the downsides, cost is probably the most relevant (and profitability is a consideration for the mfg). Imagine you need a smallish car to get to work and back. You choice is say a Corolla or a comparably sized EV, maybe the Bolt. That could be the closest comparison.
If you need a truck for towing, this question is probably much further out in the future. A Ford Flex kind of vehicle or minivan?
My guess is, in broad strokes, 2035, competitive, not necessarily better.
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and if the oil companies get really upset by 2035, they could drop gasoline prices to $1.99/gallon or lower
Causing more subsidies for ethanol or pushing corn out of the market
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The thing is, projections are still that half the cars on the road by 2050 will be ICE'd, so oil companies have quite a bit of time here to adjust. But as demand for oil drops, gradually, prices will tend to drop as well, and I think they already are adjusting forecasts for costs for exploration and drilling.
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By when do you think EVs will be competitive with ICE Vs for your personal needs?
We know the downsides, cost is probably the most relevant (and profitability is a consideration for the mfg). Imagine you need a smallish car to get to work and back. You choice is say a Corolla or a comparably sized EV, maybe the Bolt. That could be the closest comparison.
If you need a truck for towing, this question is probably much further out in the future. A Ford Flex kind of vehicle or minivan?
My guess is, in broad strokes, 2035, competitive, not necessarily better.
We drive 6-7K miles per year. So probably never. My next purchase could very well be my last purchase.
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yup, once I retire I won't be driving many miles.
Unless it's for trips to see family and friends
I suppose in 2035 I could be in the market for my last car. I'm be around 75 and figure that would last until I'm 85 at least.
It's possible I could choose an electric, but it would be about dollars and sense
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The problem is those who don't drive much don't benefit much by not buying gasoline. And as demand for gas gradually ebbs, costs may drop.
I do see a market for delivery vans and maybe work trucks.
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One thing I thought about was buying an EV since we drive in town mostly, and only need an ICE for long trips, so we could rent something the few times that happens. The math doesn't work now.
And I think the chargers in our building are a bit pricey, probably twice residential power, at least.
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perhaps by 2035 the cost to build and maintain an EV will be less than a gasser
doubtful, but perhaps
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I'll use my wife as an example. She works in an office, 5 days a week. According to Google Maps, her route is 17 miles each way, so 34 miles a day. Taking out weekends, holidays, vacation days, etc, we'll assume that's 225 work days a year.
That's already 7.6k miles. I think it's quite easy, given errands and other things she drives to, to extend and say she's probably driving 10k/year. I think it's actually higher than that, but we'll go with $10K.
Her car is a Lexus RX350. According to the current Lexus site, the RX starts at $50K. The RZ (comparable electric) starts at just under $60K. Without building them out to know all the option packages, that's just under a $10K difference. But with the $7500 tax rebate, that's actually going to be $53K, or a $3K difference for comparable vehicles.
So let's say it's an extra $1500 to install the L2 charger in the garage. Now we're at $4.5K.
Right now gas is around $4.50/gal at the Costco here. SoCal Edison has time-of-use rate plans that averaging winter and summer cost is $0.24/kWh overnight. Both are expensive relative to the rest of the country, but hey, it's California.
Based on this calculator (https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/), the 5 year savings on fuel cost alone will be a little over $5K. So anything beyond about 4.5 years of ownership is saving money based purely on fuel/electricity costs.
And that's not counting potential savings on things like maintenance costs, etc.
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We don't talk about infrastructure at all, it seems.
These EV's are very heavy.
Parking garages come to mind.
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We don't talk about infrastructure at all, it seems.
These EV's are very heavy.
Parking garages come to mind.
Parking garages, bridges, heck just plain old roads, none are built for use by a large amount of EVs.
The I35 overpass bridges in downtown Austin at rush hour are bumper-to-bumper from 7 AM to 9 AM every morning and from 4 PM to 7 PM every night. Right now the traffic on them is 95% ICE. What's going to happen when that number gets closer to 50/50?
Any civil/structural engineers around wanna do the math for us? :)
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I have zero background in structural, so it won't be me. I never even took a structural course, other than the Statics and Strength of Materials that everyone took. And I remember nothing.
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According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs.
It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.
For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595.
So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road.
A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)
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Parking garages, bridges, heck just plain old roads, none are built for use by a large amount of EVs.
The I35 overpass bridges in downtown Austin at rush hour are bumper-to-bumper from 7 AM to 9 AM every morning and from 4 PM to 7 PM every night. Right now the traffic on them is 95% ICE. What's going to happen when that number gets closer to 50/50?
Any civil/structural engineers around wanna do the math for us? :)
I think I note this here every once in a blue moon, so here is your annual-ish reminder about driving on I-10 through Louisiana. Don't take I-10 through Lake Charles as there is wide concern about the structural integrity of the bridge. It hasn't happened yet, but the local engineers have been begging for funding to do something about it for over a decade now, they claim the piles and piers are unfit and unsafe and that the bridge was not built for the traffic I-10 gets now. It hasn't fallen down and killed a bunch of people yet, but I figure there's a first time for everything, and I usually spend the +10 minutes to take the 210 loop.
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According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs.
It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.
For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595.
So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road.
A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)
Model 3 is a compact car and is in no way comparable to a Camry. Even a Carrola has more space.
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According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs.
It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.
For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595.
So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road.
A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)
I'm more worried about the static weight of traffic stopped on that bridge/overpass, which is why I specifically cited rush hour in Austin. A span that, at low traffic times, might have only one semi passing across it in a given time period, might now have 4-5 stopped directly on top of it, at peak traffic time. It's built to handle that load for the ICE version of the vehicle. But can it handle the EV equivalents?
I don't know what safety margin/safety factor structural engineers use for such structures. I believe it's several times the expected weight.
But while an EV sedan might only weigh 30% more than its ICE equivalent, I saw some info that EV trucks and SUVs can weigh up to 2.5X their ICE equivalents.
So, how much of the total vehicle base is currently sedans versus trucks/SUVs, and where are those trends headed?
I'd say it's worth a reasonable amount of concern.
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I think I note this here every once in a blue moon, so here is your annual-ish reminder about driving on I-10 through Louisiana. Don't take I-10 through Lake Charles as there is wide concern about the structural integrity of the bridge. It hasn't happened yet, but the local engineers have been begging for funding to do something about it for over a decade now, they claim the piles and piers are unfit and unsafe and that the bridge was not built for the traffic I-10 gets now. It hasn't fallen down and killed a bunch of people yet, but I figure there's a first time for everything, and I usually spend the +10 minutes to take the 210 loop.
Now tell me how to get around that horrible I10 bridge in Baton Rouge when driving east from Texas to New Orleans????
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structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.
these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks
I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more
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structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.
these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks
I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more
EV SUVs are much heavier than their ICE counterparts. Once they reach half the total vehicle base, things could get very dicey. When a safety factor of 8x becomes a safety factor of 4x, that's a major concern.
I agree that it won't matter until 2035 or later, but the fact that major capital improvements take decades to vote for, plan, fund, and build, should be a concerning factor.
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Now tell me how to get around that horrible I10 bridge in Baton Rouge when driving east from Texas to New Orleans????
Dood.
I-10 needs a bypass around Baton Rouge so bad. I recently contacted an old friend of mine about a good time to get through there and he said that anymore, there's not really a good time to go through BR. When I was growing up it was okay. After Katrina emptied out half of NOLA to BR, people who never went back, traffic was miserable for several hours around the rush hours. However, the last few times I've been through there it was miserable even when it should've been good.
Went that way to Memphis over Thanksgiving, I got to BR about noon on a Wednesday. Thought I'd be safe, but neaux. Suckity suck suck suck. Came home Sunday and thought surely I'd be okay on a weekend. Neauxp. As soon as I got off I-55 in Hammond on to I-12 headed into BR, traffic was stalled. I crawled all the way to BR, thinking after I got to the 10/12 merge it would pick back up. Neaux. I crawled through BR, thinking after I got to the 10/110 split it would pick back up. Neaux. I crawled over the Mississippi River bridge thinking after Port Allen it would pick back up. Lolz. I crawled all the way across the Atchafalaya Basin bridge (I call it the Forever Bridge) and clear to Lafayette. There were spurts of traffic that moved well, but always frequent stopping and sitting. Not until I was through Lafayette did things finally move consistently. I've never seen anything like it. Especially on a Sunday. I guess maybe it was holiday traffic with everybody coming home, but dear god. I lost nearly 4 hours to that mess.
I'm not doing that anymore. You can go to the Texas games when they play in BR. I may never mess with that city again.
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structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.
these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks
I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more
Maybe for buildings. For bridges I've always heard 3.
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But while an EV sedan might only weigh 30% more than its ICE equivalent, I saw some info that EV trucks and SUVs can weigh up to 2.5X their ICE equivalents.
So, how much of the total vehicle base is currently sedans versus trucks/SUVs, and where are those trends headed?
I'd say it's worth a reasonable amount of concern.
Where are you getting 2.5X?
If I compare the F-150 (4275-5757) with the F-150 Lightning (6015-6893), even if you take the lightest possible ICEV configuration vs the heaviest possible BEV configuration you're only at 1.6X. But that's not even a fair comparison, because the Lightning is only offered in a SuperCrew cab whereas the lightest F-150 will be regular cab, so not directly comparable. The lightest ICEV SuperCrew is 4687 as far as I can tell, which gets you down below 1.5X for an actual comparable vehicle.
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The Hummer is pretty heavy, over 9,000 pounds, the battery weighs nearly 3,000.
The 2006 H1 weighed about 8,000 pounds, it's not exactly the same.
I'd go with 1.5x.
(https://i.imgur.com/QeaKAgO.png)
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Where are you getting 2.5X?
If I compare the F-150 (4275-5757) with the F-150 Lightning (6015-6893), even if you take the lightest possible ICEV configuration vs the heaviest possible BEV configuration you're only at 1.6X. But that's not even a fair comparison, because the Lightning is only offered in a SuperCrew cab whereas the lightest F-150 will be regular cab, so not directly comparable. The lightest ICEV SuperCrew is 4687 as far as I can tell, which gets you down below 1.5X for an actual comparable vehicle.
I saw it on google. :)
Evan at 1.5X you're cutting into safety margin pretty significantly.
Are you suggesting that if vehicles are getting 30-50% heavier on average, it won't become a significant risk factor?
Because I can tell you that if CPU temperatures increased 30-50% and I didn't do anything to update/upgrade the cooling solution, we'd be looking at immediate catastrophic failure... :)
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adding 500lbs per vehicle is 50%?
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Maybe for buildings. For bridges I've always heard 3.
you're probably correct
I didn't draw many bridges
I should have asked my father, he built over 100 bridges
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When I was a kid, we'd drive to my grandparent's house in east Tenn. It was nearly all two lane road, and not many trucks fortunately, as we'd get behind one and have to slow until we could pass. Of course now on freeways there are trucks galore, many close to 40 tons, and often back to back to back to ...
Freeway bridges have to be safe for 40 t trucks nose to tail, which is a lot more than EVs would weight in the same space. Even three Humners in place of one truck doesn't match its weight.
Parking garages, there I don't know.
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When I was a kid, we'd drive to my grandparent's house in east Tenn. It was nearly all two lane road, and not many trucks fortunately, as we'd get behind one and have to slow until we could pass. Of course now on freeways there are trucks galore, many close to 40 tons, and often back to back to back to ...
Freeway bridges have to be safe for 40 t trucks nose to tail, which is a lot more than EVs would weight in the same space. Even three Humners in place of one truck doesn't match its weight.
Parking garages, there I don't know.
What about 40 EV trucks nose to tail? That's the issue we're commenting on. If/when EVs completely replace ICE, or even get to be half the total population, what then?
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Trucks still face the 40t weight limit. They would carry less cargo.
My own thinking is heavy trucks will go to fuel cells. Truck stops will dispense hydrogen instead of Diesel. Gas stations will recharge EV cars.
Like the old days.
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I saw it on google. :)
Evan at 1.5X you're cutting into safety margin pretty significantly.
Are you suggesting that if vehicles are getting 30-50% heavier on average, it won't become a significant risk factor?
Because I can tell you that if CPU temperatures increased 30-50% and I didn't do anything to update/upgrade the cooling solution, we'd be looking at immediate catastrophic failure... :)
Hey, I'm all for discussing the numbers. I'd just prefer that they're real numbers, not made up numbers.
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Hey, I'm all for discussing the numbers. I'd just prefer that they're real numbers, not made up numbers.
OK.
I don't really have time to find real exact numbers. The googles said sedans are 30% more. And SUVs could be 2.5X more.
If you care to dig further knock yourself out. I'm spending all my cycles worrying about the college football playoff...
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I get you, brotha. But you're an engineer. You're numerate.
Didn't "2.5X" just throw up a little red flag in your brain like "hmm, that doesn't sound right"?
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I get you, brotha. But you're an engineer. You're numerate.
Didn't "2.5X" just throw up a little red flag in your brain like "hmm, that doesn't sound right"?
Honestly I didn't really care enough to put that critical thought into it...? My guess is there is one example of such, and that's the one the google picked.
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- Single-Axle Weight: This weight number refers to the total weight on single axles not spaced more than 40 inches apart from other axles. You may not legally have more than 20,000 pounds on a single axle when traveling on the Interstate System.
- Tandem-Axle Weight: This refers to the total weight on consecutive axles with centers spaced between 41 and 96 inches apart. On the Interstate System, the Federal government limits your tandem-axle weight to 34,000 pounds.
Found this on line. I don't think any car would come anywhere close to these limits.
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Fair 'nuff.
But yeah, increased weight will bring problems.
Hopefully as battery capacities improve, it will start to pull back some of that weight increase. For example, it's thought that if the solid state battery can actually come to fruition, it's something like 30-50% higher capacity per kg than lithium-ion (https://www.automotiveworld.com/articles/can-solid-state-bateries-help-evs-shed-weight/#:~:text=This means that the cells,for a solid-state chemistry.).
But hopefully all the talk about solid state batteries is technically (and economically) achievable, and not just hopium.
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Solid state batteries seem like a white paper dream right now, but I suppose ya never know.
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A friend of mine called such things "Unobtainium".
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You Can Save $15,000 On Gas In 5 Years Of Owning A Tesla Model 3. Here's How (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/698380/tesla-model-3-ownership-cost-fuel-savings-5-years/?fbclid=IwAR2UnJbi4CD7dT3b7NcOGoMT_uJPhng5mX-EsA8yGgXaAWTr77yCAKz8YFg)
Says he paid $56 K for that Tesla and compares it with Toyota Camry/Corolla, in different spots.
The newest Camry is hybrid only, probably around 40 mpg which is higher than the 26 mpg used above.
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Toyota's hybrid battery guarantee, 10 years/150K miles, is all I need to buy one of their hybrids. Not so keen on an all electric vehicle living in the boondocks. Maybe when an electric vehicle battery charge takes less than 5 minutes and is good for 400+ miles.
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The battery warranty on all EVs and PHEVs is 100,000 miles.
I think we could see recharge times of 15 minutes from 20% to 80% fairly soonish. That last 20% is slow at the moment. The claimed Toyota SS batteries are interesting if they become real.
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The Toyota Prius Is the 2024 MotorTrend Car of the Year (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-prius-hybrid-2024-car-of-the-year/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3M40ouG8pgX9xe7YU3KY8PJ_rJK7JCsKbsuJxrou9ht5RKkSpb1BmCdjM)
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not a very big car
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Nope, it's adequate as a second though. Motor Trend is not my favorite car mag, but it's notable the new Prius is pretty fast.
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adequate until a guy your size tries to get in and out of the driver's seat
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Small cars often have more leg room than one might think. I had a Chevy Sonic for a few year and didn't even have my seat all the way back, the same is true with the GTI. In rental cars, I usually push the seat all the way back and then MAYBE move forward a click.
A thing I check before buying a new car is seating position and comfort. In some, I'm just not comfortable even if there is leg room.
I liked that Sonic quite a bit.
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Apparently tall guys report the Prius as being pretty comfortable: https://www.reddit.com/r/prius/comments/15wll0o/how_is_the_prius_for_tallish_people/
I had one as a rental car WAY back probably not too long after the Prius was introduced, and hated it. But that was when it was a gutless wonder. And it wasn't based on size, I just hated driving it. I do understand that the newer variants aren't anything like those though.
At least one person on that reddit thread did say it was low to the ground and getting in and out isn't ideal. But plenty roomy once you're inside.
Some cars that you'd think should be "roomier" than a Prius aren't. When we bought the RX we also looked at the NX200. It's a small CUV and is tall enough that you'd think it has enough room for me. I couldn't even fit in the damn passenger seat. Tried adjusting the seats any way I could, and it just didn't work. I was surprised.
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(https://i.imgur.com/BKph94B.png)
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Most impressive...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1730331223992472029
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That's awesome. If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
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That's awesome. If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
and expensive.. the "beast" model, which is the one in the video and the one actually available now is 100k.
I'm sorry, but what people have been spending on vehicles is absolutely insane and going to lead to economic mess.
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and expensive.. the "beast" model, which is the one in the video and the one actually available now is 100k.
I'm sorry, but what people have been spending on vehicles is absolutely insane and going to lead to economic mess.
Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles. So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford. Which just enables further inflation in the market. It's crazy.
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What the hell is the point of a pickup truck that does 0-60 in 2.6s and a sub-11s quarter mile?
I swear anyone who buys that thing is the modern equivalent of this guy:
(https://i.imgur.com/b8CQ11E.jpg)
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Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles. So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford. Which just enables further inflation in the market. It's crazy.
Yep. Just like college loans allow colleges to ratchet up their prices. Leading to massive inflation of college costs which make it more and more necessary to take on loans... Vicious cycle.
And just like leasing is often a way for people to drive much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford. Stay on that treadmill, never actually going anywhere, because you don't want to be seen in a Honda. Ew!
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Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles. So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford. Which just enables further inflation in the market. It's crazy.
I know. I'm in the financial world and I'm shocked and disgusted by it. The amount of people with 72 month auto loans at $850 per month would blow some minds.
At some point a 2008 is going to happen again. I'm just not sure what is going to be the trigger because there's a lot of directions it could come from this time.
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I know. I'm in the financial world and I'm shocked and disgusted by it. The amount of people with 72 month auto loans at $850 per month would blow some minds.
Still probably better for most of them than leasing.
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That's awesome. If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
have you seen the 2024 MotorTrend Car of the Year?
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There Are Way More Ways to Make Electric Motors Than You Think (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a46012251/ev-motor-types/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR0HJj4m7xOBW63OjdxcwVWzoOdp_nTP_IqLLfo6DebfpreFzpmCHI7bn4A)
@utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15)
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Most impressive...
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1730331223992472029
.....but ugly AF.
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(https://i.imgur.com/R9SOBuG.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ug43DkH.png)
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Still probably better for most of them than leasing.
We may consider a lease, given how little we drive.
Always kinda wanted a Bentley.
:29:
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(https://i.imgur.com/MrmkFbk.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Z1wy365.jpg)
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that's better
an old man's sedan/coupe
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With a 600 HP V12.
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sporty!
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Electric Cars Are Far Less Reliable, According to Consumer Reports (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45986810/electric-cars-are-far-less-reliable-according-to-consumer-reports/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR05IIUQXjDouc-nU-UCEQ5d4TA975sJdwkW_uRckvngywWIe1mfv5Sg_n4)
I'm not at all a fan of CR and their methods. Anyway, this likely is true.
I read some of their reports on things I knew a bit about and they were at a HS science project level, really not good at all, ridiculous techniques.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0s5gq.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/R9SOBuG.png)
Like.....who approved that design? I really need to know.
I mean, it didn't have to look like this, surely.
Looks like somebody in upper management said "Hey Bob....make it so it looks like a Mars rover."
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I figured they were going for "unique" and maybe it appeals to folks who want to signal they are just that, and have no real interest in having a truck.
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Like.....who approved that design? I really need to know.
I mean, it didn't have to look like this, surely.
Looks like somebody in upper management said "Hey Bob....make it so it looks like a Mars rover."
Pretty sure it was Elon who wanted it to look like this.
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or the bud light marketing person
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Pretty sure it was Elon who wanted it to look like this.
Then you are correct, he doesn't need to be anywhere near the auto industry. That's a Crime Against Aesthetics.
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I figured they were going for "unique" and maybe it appeals to folks who want to signal they are just that, and have no real interest in having a truck.
I can't even tell it was supposed to be a truck.
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Then you are correct, he doesn't need to be anywhere near the auto industry. That's a Crime Against Aesthetics.
Let him make the batteries and leave the rest to people who build cars for real.
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Let him make the batteries and leave the rest to people who build cars for real.
He doesn't even have the battery tech. That's pretty much all Panasonic. He has a factory that assembles the batteries.
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I'm still impressed that any new car maker can master all of the details of building a reasonably competent car. You have so many different aspects to master.
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I'm still impressed that any new car maker can master all of the details of building a reasonably competent car. You have so many different aspects to master.
When I worked for Ford, my team managed over 16,000 parts per model on the Ford Explorer alone. It is pretty amazing.
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Managing existing parts is hard enough. Devising a new car from a clean sheet? Just the suspension alone would be serious work. Then you have crash worthiness and all the other Fed requirements to me. Seats? Go design a decent car seat.
I'm sure they hire folks from the Big Three, but still.
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Historic: US EVs skyrocket past 1 million sales, up 50.7% YOY🔥 | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/12/05/us-ev-sales-pass-1-million-2023/?fbclid=IwAR1XkcS-bms4GXnb8y_LSRhLi250L-UF4Cp9TXGf-bnuGxJi1IkzyjK7EXw)
Supply has exceeded demand however.
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sales means sold, correct?
or just sitting on dealer lots
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Sold.
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well then, demand was obviously past 1 million, up 50.7%
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Sales are up, just not as much as makers expected. I'm seeing a lot of ads showing discounts on EVs now.
And a million a year is not a large percentage.
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And a million a year is not a large percentage.
Admittedly it's still <10%, but it's getting within sight of that number.
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Sure, and no doubt the figure will rise in time, probably looking fairly exponential for a period. We also may well hit a "lull", we may already have, where it has to get past the first adopters and cool people and to folks who are more practical.
Gas around here is well under $3 in most places, an EV just doesn't make much fiscal sense here.
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gas at $2.50 here
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4.19 at the Costco this morning.
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2.55 in Cleveland another 45-50 cents in the Burbs
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I could understand electricity becoming more expensive with the forced move towards green
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We're not really moving to "green" very fast. A lot of articles claim we are, but they often omit some critical reference figures. They say "this will provide power for X number of houses". And the grid still HAS to have backup power AND base load power from something. And demand is very likely to grow.
We may find out that "green" only meets additional demand and the current demand stays largely with current sourcing.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CTwy7dO.png)
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2024 Chevy Blazer RS AWD vs. 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E, Tesla Model Y Long Range: Electric SUVs Compared! (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevrolet-blazer-vs-2023-ford-mustang-mach-e-tesla-model-y-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0lxptVLou0XdLQSFrsNntBiRwLmgOQ1uH_AK_-F9mIVJyCJNBAXOqJJAU)
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Just paid $2.74 for 91 Octane from Wawa. 87 was $2.19.
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2024 Chevy Blazer EV First Test: Not Fast, But Still an Electric Swagger Wagon (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevy-blazer-ev-first-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GF87G_o4txg7z_Luf6_Mg80TzQumAfZYDN11ZimRcSeUpz35NA2Q-vcA)
The least expensive Blazer EV (for now) will be the 2LT AWD, which will start at $56,715 (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-blazer-updated-pricing/). In RS-spec, all-wheel drive starts at $60,215 while the long-range rear-wheel-drive variant should clock in at $61,790 to start, and front-drivers will appear later. We expect the performance SS trim to come in around $66,000. Some variants will be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit
And therein lies the "rub", in addition to the other things.
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2024 Chevy Blazer EV First Test: Not Fast, But Still an Electric Swagger Wagon (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevy-blazer-ev-first-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GF87G_o4txg7z_Luf6_Mg80TzQumAfZYDN11ZimRcSeUpz35NA2Q-vcA)
The least expensive Blazer EV (for now) will be the 2LT AWD, which will start at $56,715 (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-blazer-updated-pricing/). In RS-spec, all-wheel drive starts at $60,215 while the long-range rear-wheel-drive variant should clock in at $61,790 to start, and front-drivers will appear later. We expect the performance SS trim to come in around $66,000. Some variants will be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit
And therein lies the "rub", in addition to the other things.
Damn right there's a rub.
People who could/would never purchase an EV are funding those who will/are - and they don't need the money!! The ones who can't afford it support the ones who can.
It's a big rub, and only talked about by people with open eyes.
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I know the tax credit has a rather liberal income cap on it, I would have let it apply only to EVs costing less than an ICE equivalent, or under $45 K.
If I had one at all. You can buy an ICE Blazer for under $50 K with all the features.
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I know the tax credit has a rather liberal income cap on it, I would have let it apply only to EVs costing less than an ICE equivalent, or under $45 K.
If I had one at all. You can buy an ICE Blazer for under $50 K with all the features.
"You" is who?
$50K is not an option for the vast majority of people.
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One can purchsea loaded ICE Blazer under $50 K, which is right at what the average new car costs today.
Even with the $7500, it does not compute, for me.
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The Chevy Bolt is probably the closest EV to making sense for folks needing a small car, like a Corolla, but any small hybrid makes more sense, I think.
And the Bolt is being "discontinued" anyway, in current form. The new one might be similar in features and price, maybe.
The other item not often noted is that car makers are losing money on EVs (aside from Tesla). So they also are subsidizing these things to get acceptance.
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Damn right there's a rub.
People who could/would never purchase an EV are funding those who will/are - and they don't need the money!! The ones who can't afford it support the ones who can.
It's a big rub, and only talked about by people with open eyes.
I dunno, I'll bet the Federal Reserve chairs and those buying the Treasury bonds to cover the deficits can afford EVs.
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Yeah, there are some exceptions (!), but largely "regular folks" are not buying EVs, at all. Most of them probably are looking at used vehicles, perhaps coming off a 3 year lease, which makes a lot of sense. But we all see plenty of BMWs and Mercedes in traffic when most of the drivers would be just as well off with a Camry or Accord.
Your typical BMW owner could plausibly afford an EV, but it still doesn't make sense for most financially, maybe it's close in California.
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Let's get real.
(https://i.imgur.com/vjD50iZ.png)
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The EV has more base equipment.
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It should be gold plated for another $21K.
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"You" is who?
Not me :smiley_confused1:
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The other item not often noted is that car makers are losing money on EVs (aside from Tesla). So they also are subsidizing these things to get acceptance.
I think this is an overplayed criticism. They're losing money on their EV divisions, not on each individual EV they sell, IMHO. I.e. I'd be willing to bet that gross margin is positive on every EV they sell--it's net that gets them.
And the reason for that isn't profitability in general; it's volume. Whether you're going to sell 1 car or 1M cars, you need an entire "EV division" comprising engineering, supply chain, marketing, etc. That's a lot of money but it looks really bad if you sell 1 car and really good if you sell 1M cars. They haven't achieved the volume yet for the aggregate gross profit to fund the divisions they had to stand up to sell 1 car.
The same thing happened with Tesla. They burned money until they could achieve the volume necessary to fund the company, even though they were selling expensive cars that were individually positive gross margin items.
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Some models might be positive in gross profit. And maybe the critique is over played. But Ford announced their EV division was losing billions, or over a billion, which starts to sound like real money.
Anyway, the Blazer example is one I think where the premium to the customer for an EV is quite a bit outside the range most would pay even after $7500.
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Yeah. And they had to fund that EV division for several years before they built a single car. R&D, engineering, prototyping, reliability testing, etc. Costs A LOT of money. And they need that entire EV division whether they sell 1 car or 1M cars. But if the volume is closer to 1 than 1M, the division is going to be losing A LOT of money.
It's like any startup. You have to have a company to develop the product before you can sell a single unit and generate a single dollar of revenue. So you burn cash until you can grow volume enough to be self-supporting.
And these EV unit losses only becomes public because they set up the EV division as it's own P&L and disclose those losses to Wall Street on a division basis. They can't hide them in the corporate earnings because they don't want those losses to cause the Street to question whether their ICEV business is healthy or negatively compare their results to other ICEV businesses that don't have BEV losses right now.
If company A is making $3B a year on ICEV and losing $2B a year on new BEV development, and company B is making $1.2B on a year on ICEV sales on smaller volume but has no BEV division, company A looks bad if they're only reporting $1B in earnings on higher volume. But if you break it out, it shows that company A is very healthy in their core market and is investing to develop products for the future, while company B is a smaller company that is sitting on their hands and might be in trouble with no product to sell when BEVs become fully mainstream.
All of this is basic stuff. But it's not as sexy as "company A is losing a bunch of money on EVs!"
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IMO, that's really a poor way to look at it. In the end, it doesn't matter what your unit cost profits/losses are. That's not nearly as important as overall product profit/loss, and generally products that aren't profitable are laid to rest by the free market. If I sell a unit at 60k that only cost me 50k to make, I still don't really have profit if the department at large has cost me $2 bil and I've sold $1.3 bil. Hiding the loss within a larger company with other profitable divisions is no sign of health for the division either, and companies that do this long-term will usually fold those products, as they should.
The mechanism you're describing is what's called the "push" model, where a company attempts to introduce something the public didn't know it wanted. There's a longer leash there, and various companies will have various timelines for allowing something to become profitable or not. Things get even less economically sound when subsidies get involved. But that in itself tells you something about the EVs in general, and perhaps a brand-specific EV in particular. The fact it's not a "pull" economic model--where the consumer demands a company make something for them--says a lot about the demand and thus the viability of the product as currently constituted.
That's not to say there aren't great successes within pushed products....there certainly are. But they're going to fail at a much higher clip than pull products. If they're allowed to fail in a free market, that is. Again, subsidies crash any supply/demand equilibrium I've ever seen.
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I accept that putting out any new product costs money, even just a mild refresh of say a Chevy Malibu. You don't make money on the first few units, you hope to make it later. Where I worked, the big thing was called "case volume", or cases. It was an attempt to put disparate things into a financial framework, like diapers and laundry detergent. The saying was we only made money on the last cases we sold, the first bunch was to break even off investment (and operating costs).
So, the idea here obviously is that down the road, EVs will be profitable on a unit basis but they have to spend a lot now to get in the game. And they can't sell them at their actual cost plus because no one would buy them.
So, they discount them, to get sales up, and then hope margins come later.
The problem I'm seeing is none of them make sense for the individual buyer. Maybe the Chevy Bolt is close-ish. And this $7500 isn't enough to close that gap.
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IMO, that's really a poor way to look at it. In the end, it doesn't matter what your unit cost profits/losses are. That's not nearly as important as overall product profit/loss, and generally products that aren't profitable are laid to rest by the free market. If I sell a unit at 60k that only cost me 50k to make, I still don't really have profit if the department at large has cost me $2 bil and I've sold $1.3 bil. Hiding the loss within a larger company with other profitable divisions is no sign of health for the division either, and companies that do this long-term will usually fold those products, as they should.
The mechanism you're describing is what's called the "push" model, where a company attempts to introduce something the public didn't know it wanted. There's a longer leash there, and various companies will have various timelines for allowing something to become profitable or not. Things get even less economically sound when subsidies get involved. But that in itself tells you something about the EVs in general, and perhaps a brand-specific EV in particular. The fact it's not a "pull" economic model--where the consumer demands a company make something for them--says a lot about the demand and thus the viability of the product as currently constituted.
That's not to say there aren't great successes within pushed products....there certainly are. But they're going to fail at a much higher clip than pull products. If they're allowed to fail in a free market, that is. Again, subsidies crash any supply/demand equilibrium I've ever seen.
I agree with a LOT of what you just said there. However, I think to an extent a company like Ford is realizing that they have to lose money now on EVs to learn the technology and develop the products that make money later.
There *is* demand for EVs. We posted upthread that US EV sales are up 50% YoY. That's demand. Right now it's not a great market for sellers because a bunch of new entrants jumped in all at once and so supply exceeds demand at current prices. Trust me, being in the data storage industry, I know how painful the market is when that happens. There's no such thing as oversupply--people will buy more X if you sell it cheap enough. There's only oversupply at financially sustainable sales prices!
Tesla lost money for a decade+ before they built enough volume to be profitable. They also basically made the market. I honestly believe that VW, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, Chevy, etc were SMART to wait until that market had been built to enter it. They let Tesla be the "push" guinea pig and take the risk. But it also means that they're behind and are going to lose money in that segment until they can spin up enough volume to be profitable in their EV divisions. And part of that is based on the presumption that battery prices will decline over time, opening up the cheaper product swim lanes since BEVs are mostly a luxury-priced item now.
Now, maybe it *IS* bad business. With the portion of BEV cost that is battery-dependent and with all of these vendors being dependent on the companies that have legitimate battery tech, there's a chance that the long-term idea is that someone like Panasonic or LG or CATL decide that it's better to acquire an automaker and vertically integrate rather than just selling them batteries. That way they can capture more of the value chain based on their battery tech. I don't know--the next decade could be REALLY interesting.
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Well, that's the eternal problem. The only way to know if it's bad business is to wait until the future gets here and see how it went. If I lose a billion+ for 9 years, and then on my tenth make tens of billions, well, I'm a success who weathered the necessary storm. If it never materializes, I'm a goat who's run off by the board for not knowing when to cut my losses.
There just always a conversation to be had about producing something not many were asking for. Sometimes that ultimately goes very well. A lot of times it doesn't.
But again, we're not in a real free market here, where consumers and producers are doing whatever they want. Just as the current model skews basic economics with subsidies, so does environmental awareness campaigns and popular dogmas skew what people "want." i.e., John Doe may never care a lick about EV's, but maybe he cares about reducing global warming and then decides investing in an EV is a good goal.
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I accept that putting out any new product costs money, even just a mild refresh of say a Chevy Malibu. You don't make money on the first few units, you hope to make it later. Where I worked, the big thing was called "case volume", or cases. It was an attempt to put disparate things into a financial framework, like diapers and laundry detergent. The saying was we only made money on the last cases we sold, the first bunch was to break even off investment (and operating costs).
So, the idea here obviously is that down the road, EVs will be profitable on a unit basis but they have to spend a lot now to get in the game. And they can't sell them at their actual cost plus because no one would buy them.
So, they discount them, to get sales up, and then hope margins come later.
The problem I'm seeing is none of them make sense for the individual buyer. Maybe the Chevy Bolt is close-ish. And this $7500 isn't enough to close that gap.
But where we disagree is that I believe that for most companies, EVs *are* profitable on an individual unit basis but aren't profitable on a business unit basis because of the start-up costs each automaker is incurring. It's a much bigger transition than just releasing a refreshed Malibu, so you have to expect the losses will be larger and the payback period to break-even be longer.
However I think you're flat wrong on the "none of them make sense for the individual buyer". And it's because you're comparing disparate products and disparate buyers. Yes, name "Blazer" refers to both an ICEV and BEV model. And yes, the base ICEV Blazer starts at $35,400 and the Blazer EV starts at $56,715. But the person looking at that base Blazer isn't a prospective EV buyer and the person looking at the EV version wouldn't be caught dead in the base Blazer. They're different buyers.
And if you're comparing a buyer who prefers to buy used and spend $20K with a buyer who leases or buys new for vehicles with sticker prices at $50K+, then of COURSE it won't make financial sense for the $20K used buyer to buy a brand new luxury EV. But for buyers in that the luxury segment, it can absolutely make sense.
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Well, that's the eternal problem. The only way to know if it's bad business is to wait until the future gets here and see how it went. If I lose a billion+ for 9 years, and then on my tenth make tens of billions, well, I'm a success who weathered the necessary storm. If it never materializes, I'm a goat who's run off by the board for not knowing when to cut my losses.
There just always a conversation to be had about producing something not many were asking for. Sometimes that ultimately goes very well. A lot of times it doesn't.
But again, we're not in a real free market here, where consumers and producers are doing whatever they want. Just as the current model skews basic economics with subsidies, so does environmental awareness campaigns and popular dogmas skew what people "want." i.e., John Doe may never care a lick about EV's, but maybe he cares about reducing global warming and then decides investing in an EV is a good goal.
Well, there is a way to manage those predictions. If you think EVs are bad business, you can short Ford / Chevy stock. Or you can merely not invest in them and invest in automakers that aren't chasing EVs. Or in a different sector entirely. I don't invest in Tesla for the various reasons I've said where I think they're overvalued trying to present themselves as a "tech" company with the resultant P/E multiples,, instead of a car company. The market is buying it (for now); I'm not. I don't short them because I don't have that level of risk tolerance, but I'm not going to buy their stock.
I don't want to come across as some BEV stan here... I'm in a lot of ways arguing Devil's advocate as I see both sides but most of you are only arguing one... So if I see what are bad or non-credible arguments, I'm going to call them out.
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Is good.
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I don't want to come across as some BEV stan here... I'm in a lot of ways arguing Devil's advocate as I see both sides but most of you are only arguing one... So if I see what are bad or non-credible arguments, I'm going to call them out.
Oh, I don't really have a "side," and I have no idea how it will all play out in the long term. EV's make zero sense for me personally, and also for nearly everybody in my sphere, and I'm not sure how much that's likely to change.....so maybe that's my "side." That obviously has no bearing on whether or not manufacturers will ultimately be successful. A successful product doesn't need my purchase, and a lot of them don't even need most people's purchases.
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Saw one of these on the road yesterday. It's what I want.
(https://i.imgur.com/4PvtAU9.png)
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We're discussing this to try and make sense of it, and predict likely futures. None of us seem to have a side. I think we'd all be fine with EVs if they were the better type for us personally, but so far, none of us have one. Most of us MIGHT have one someday. The exchange is good for figuring out when that day COULD happen.
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Back in the day, my wife leased her cars three years. One was coming up to end, and she didn't want to buy it (it was a nice car). OK, I had a pretty nice Caddy CTS a bit long in the teeth, so I loaned it to her to use. I still needed something to run about town, so I used a bunch of GM Mastercard dollars to buy a Chevy Sonic hatchback. It was a pretty decent car, cheap with $3,000 off the top, and I got an OK deal on it. I drove it a while, I was still working.
I'm thinking today, I COULD have bought a Chevy Bolt. I didn't drive very far in a day, maybe 30 miles. We had a garage and I could have put in a 220v line if not a main charger deal. I've said before, were I in this situation today I'd look at the Bolt as a possibly viable option for me.
One issue of course is that I didn't drive very far, so gas savings would have been minimal, the 30 miles needed about one gallon a day at $2 a gallon. Around here regular is about $2.50 today which is really cheap.
So, even then, it would make sense. Even today for us if we wanted a second car, it wouldn't make sense. We could get by with an EV today except for trips and I could rent something for the few driving trips we do each year. Maybe a PHEV would make sense, but in my view currently, the standard hybrid is the way for us to go.
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I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.
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Chevy’s New Blazer EV RS Is An Incredibly Normal EV (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/chevy-s-new-blazer-ev-rs-is-an-incredibly-normal-ev-1851091218?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1702477801&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1sNH1Ybq06PwfEP6ZEy3-w6zGvKHRU-0ubMndiGHSHo9tB9v8i9t-yPkQ)
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I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.
Sure, in a sense, you are right. This is the "social signaling" we see around us fairly often. The same is true I think for showing one isn't a racist by marching in some BLM protest, or cheering for "Palestine", or marching for climate change, etc. etc. etc. There is a large component of knee jerk reactionism for some people. Whatever is on "their side" is what they support, few of them ever think "Well, OK I'm for this, but not that." March to the same drummer.
I think it's also true on both sides, I've seen some disparage EVs well beyond any discussion of their attributes, calling the "golf carts" etc. and saying "I'll never buy one, period." All that, to me, is signaling also. This is MY SIDE.
To think through a thing and note positives and negatives is more nuanced, and difficult. It's easier just to follow whatever YOUR SIDE tells you.
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My mind says it doesn't make sense for us to have an EV. I've done the math, and it just doesn't work. Also, I LIKE how the performance ICE's sound and feel.
As an aside, we are in the process of trading in our Evolution golf cart for a gas one - <3 years in and the battery is failing.
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It's a simple financial decision for me.
Don't like wasting money.
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It's financial for most folks, including me, along with meeting other needs like space etc.
At this point, an EV is feasible if you don't drive much, and only around town, but then you don't save much relative to gasoline. We aren't there yet, in my view.
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I'm not sure you can save much money regardless of how many miles you drive.
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I think eventually it could pay out, down the road, for some, depending on gas prices. "Could". There are a lot of variables. But let's say it does in six years, is it worth the known problems?
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Ed Zachary
5 or 6 years of "could " isn't enough to motivate me
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Nor any of us here, but it's useful to go through the exercise and see how they could work in certain situations.
THen we're all informed.
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I'm informed. I've done the research and I know enough to state that it doesn't make sense for us.
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The question, for me, is whether it will make sense for a lot of folks any time soonish.
The next vehicle I buy could well be our last, which might be true for several others here. I think my wife wants one next year. Bummer. I'll look at the Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Hyundai hybrid versions of the "CR-V", maybe another one, all around $40 K, which is rather astounding, to me. Keeping the GTI would be my preference, I really like that car.
I'm going to delay until she gets more insistent.
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Volvo CEO says what lack of EV demand? Orders remain strong (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2023/12/13/volvo-lack-of-ev-demand-orders-strong/?fbclid=IwAR38gpbrm4BglrHk252Yg-GkngGuUgNmSt4R2qxNzIqlIwi_5i1S1LhOI58)
The thing is, of course, orders can be strong if supply is somewhat limited. An over supply would mean orders are not strong enough. The issue is not really that orders are down, they aren't, it's that they have not kept up with new supply.
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It's not just financial. If it was financial, we'd see a lot more Hondas and Fords and Hyundais on the road and a lot fewer BMWs and Mercs and Porsches.
If it was just financial, Badge wouldn't be driving a fancy-ass Merc and lusting over a Porsche Macan. He owns vehicles like that because he likes them and has the means.
If it was just financial, Lexus and Acura (and Lincoln and Cadillac) wouldn't exist. They're just an upbadged Toyota/Honda/Ford/Chevy. But they do.
I'm very utilitarian when it comes to cars. But even for me when family changes forced me to move up from the truck, I bought a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Did I really "need" the Rubicon model? No. But I wanted it. When I got divorced and didn't have access to a family minivan and needed something larger than the Jeep, I bought a Ford Flex Limited because I wanted the upgraded sound system and the panoramic sunroof in the back seats (and because my soon-to-be FIL had an SEL model and I wanted the higher level trim). So even as a utilitarian I've spent up for unnecessary things.
There is an emotional component to buying a vehicle. For some people, there's value and they WANT an EV. Maybe they want to be seen as ahead of the curve. Or maybe they view Tesla as "cool" in the way that Apple folks think Apple is "cool" and not just another damn phone. Or maybe they think they're doing something good for the environment.
Or maybe they just hate filling their car with gas every week or so and like the idea that their car has a "full tank" every single morning they wake up because they plug it into their charger when they get home the previous day. It's like your cellphone. Plug it in at night and it's ready to go in the morning. People make it sound like charging an EV is the equivalent of trying to find an outlet to charge your cellphone, in a crowded airport, in 2012. Yeah, if charging an EV was like that, it'd be hell lol.
As I've said, when my next vehicle purchase comes up, an EV is within my realm of consideration. The financial bit does weigh highly for me with vehicles, but as I mentioned above, I up-spent for a more capable off-roading vehicle than I needed for someone who almost never goes off-road (and hasn't been anywhere the "Rubicon" package mattered), and up-spent for a more full-featured trim package than I needed in the Flex. So if it comes down to it and I decide I really WANT an EV? I have the means and I'll buy it.
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It's financial for a lot of folks, not for many of us here (meaning we can pretty much buy what we want within reason).
Folks do buy BMWs because of their cache', not because they are really better than a Honda. And it is for many an emotional decision. When I walk onto a car lot and tell a salesman I'm interested in Model Q, his first question almost without exception is "What color?".
Color, for me, is well down the list of criteria. WELL down. But apparently it's near the top for many.
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It's financial for a lot of folks, not for many of us here (meaning we can pretty much buy what we want within reason).
Folks do buy BMWs because of their cache', not because they are really better than a Honda. And it is for many an emotional decision. When I walk onto a car lot and tell a salesman I'm interested in Model Q, his first question almost without exception is "What color?".
Color, for me, is well down the list of criteria. WELL down. But apparently it's near the top for many.
Yeah, and it's emotional for a lot of folks too. You've all heard my complaints about leasing. Not that leasing is a bad idea; there are instances where it makes sense. But that too many people lease vehicles so that they can drive something nicer than they could afford to buy, and THAT is a bad idea.
Think of say, a new college grad going off to her first job, making $38K/year. She wants to drive a cute little 3-series BMW. She can't afford it, of course. She COULD afford a 3-year used Civic with low miles, completely pay it off in 3 years, and have an asset. But the lease deal BMW is throwing out means that she can pay just a bit more monthly than the 3-year repayment cost of the Honda, so suddenly the lease wins out. Emotions >> finances.
There are a LOT of people in this world that think this way. They want the best car that they can get for the maximum monthly payment they can afford, and if that means it's just a lease and there's no path to ownership, well as long as the monthly nut works, they'll do it.
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If it was just financial, Badge wouldn't be driving a fancy-ass Merc and lusting over a Porsche Macan. He owns vehicles like that because he likes them and has the means.
That's a Cayenne I showed. Macan is too small.
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That's a Cayenne I showed. Macan is too small.
Fair enough. I knew it wasn't a Taycan :57:
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I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.
I just don't want an EV.
Even if I could afford one--which I can't--I wouldn't buy one because I don't see the point when the technology that powers every vehicle I've owned is still perfectly fine and infrastructure is far more widely available and affordable at all points. I'm not much of a change for the sake of change guy. Without a good reason to move me out of my current paradigm into a new one, I just want to drive whatever versions of ICEs I can afford. I'm not actively against EVs, but I'm unlikely to ever see their point for me unless and until ICEs start becoming problematic for me and EVs offer a solution.
Y'all mentioned an emotional component. That probably is in there for me somewhere as well. I used to work in the oil and gas industry and I know tons of people who make solid livings in it. People who don't have the education to go start a new career and remain at a nice, livable income they currently have. Like the railroad, refineries, things like that, the O&G industry employees a lot of "regular people" and allows families a good living. I worry that EVs could ultimately eat into domestic (or even foreign) production enough to begin negatively affecting those jobs. The industry already has enough ups and downs for those folks to weather, I'd hate to see something added to those swings, or certainly cause less jobs permanently. I have no idea how likely that is. I just know I don't want to see it. I also remain unconvinced that EVs are a net positive for global warming or that it's even an imminent threat that requires a new mode of transportation.
To sum up, I just don't want an EV.
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I would want an EV at some point, I suspect, they do have significant advantages. The "dis" parts are too great now, for me, that could change. I think the range most have is OK, but recharging is not for various reasons noted. The cost is not OK. Expense of operation is good. Handling and acceleration are generally quite good.
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I would want an EV at some point, I suspect, they do have significant advantages. The "dis" parts are too great now, for me, that could change. I think the range most have is OK, but recharging is not for various reasons noted. The cost is not OK. Expense of operation is good. Handling and acceleration are generally quite good.
Yeah, the recharging thing is a problem for you based on your living situation. If you (or anyone) has to rely on third-party charging for 100% of your usage, the electricity rates you'll be charged are WAY higher than if you have your own home and a home charger. It ends up screwing anyone who lives in an apartment or condo complex at this point.
It's one of the things that would stop me if I were in the market right now. I don't own this home and I'm not paying to install a charger in my landlord's house... And he's a cheap bastard and I'm sure wouldn't pay for it himself (even if it might help him get higher rents in the future). I'm hoping the real estate market makes it possible that I'll have my own house before my next car purchase.
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Public charging systems that charge based on kWh average anywhere between $0.30 and $0.60 per kWh compared to $0.16 per kWh at home.
An EV needs about 33 kWhr to go 100 miles. You can see that at 60 cents, the thing is way off the mark, $20 for 100 miles of range.
That would be 3 gallons of gas in my GTI on the highway, 4 gallons around town, at $3/gallon for premium at Costco. You HAVE to charge at home (mostly) for it to work at all.
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I would say that those ranges are pretty wide, with the $0.60/kWh probably being California. But of course in California, home electricity rates are high, and gas prices are high, relative to the rest of the country.
But the point stands. Public charging is going to be 2-3x the expense of at-home charging, even in CA, which means that if you're relying on public charging, the economics don't work.
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I had considered a PHEV, but even at 30 cents per kWhr, I don't think it works. The Tuscon regular hybrid supposedly get 37 mpg in the city, on regular, so 100 miles here would cost me about $7 in gas. And $10 in electricity.
The main incentive for the hybrid is it has more power than the ICE Tuscon.
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doubt you really need the extra power
must be an emotional thing
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My wife likes fast cars.
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How fast?
(https://i.imgur.com/NS5gHOB.jpg)
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The GTI is fine she says.
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I'm pretty sure something in the 0-60mph in 3 seconds and a 1/4 mile time of 11 sec flat would be fast enough for me
165mph on a murder cycle was pretty fast back in the late 80's
Don't need to be going much faster than that - maybe 180mph
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Hell, my motorcycle with a mere 66 hp was still capable of pulling 0-60 in <3 sec. Not with my big ass on it, of course...
Due to the horrible aero of any motorcycle, and a mere 66 hp, top speed was about 125 mph. I might have hit 115-120, and that was fast enough for me.
Even on the racetrack, I knew that there was a lot more fun going fast while cornering than just making top speed runs.
But hell, tipping into turn 1 at the Streets of Willow Springs at 110 mph was a rush.
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my 87 Hurricane 1000 had 130 hp
0-60 3 sec
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my 87 Hurricane 1000 had 130 hp
0-60 3 sec
Yep. '01 Suzuki SV650. 0-60 was 3.2s with half the HP.
But while a 650cc V-twin might have the grunt down low, it's not going to have the top-end HP numbers of a 4-cyl 1000cc motor. Looking it up on google, despite the higher displacement that Hurricane had a higher redline.
But it's a motorcycle. 0-60 is going to be based on gearing and the fundamental issue that you have to keep the front wheel on the ground for optimal acceleration. Off the line, there's only so much usable power you can access.
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yup, back in 87 the rear tire wasn't very fat
best I could do was come out with the rear tire spinning and the front tire in the air
it was a bit tricky but I had plenty of practice
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The GTI takes about 6 seconds 0-60. The nice thing, for me, is when I'm on the highway and want to speed up to get around a truck or something from say 70 mph, I don't have to downshift, it has plenty of low end torque.
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Fastest I've ever gone is 164 in my 944 Turbo. That was a long time ago. No need for that anymore. That was a pretty car back in the day. I wouldn't mind finding another one to play around with.
(https://i.imgur.com/SAkJTpY.png)
I know @Honestbuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=37) still dabbles in the speed category.
I'm comfortable at 100 or so. Anything more than that is a little much. There's really nowhere around here to do that anyway.
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FYI, speedometers back in the day were very optimistic once a car got over 100 mph. They could be off 20 mph or more. Porsche probably was better at it.
1989 944 Turbo Coupe (951) | Specs | Excellence | The Magazine About Porsche (excellence-mag.com) (https://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/specs/289)
Factory top speed was 162, so you were probably close.
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The 0-60 time was 5.7 seconds, which is close to what a modern GTI will do.
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I still like going fast, but only at the right place and time.
Try to go to the strip or/and road course once a year.
But me and Mrs HB will take 2 cars out early on Saturday or Sunday and drive 20-30 minutes inland where the roads are flat, smooth and empty. Fun to get up to 150 ish.
Unfortunately- those are the only ways to safely enjoy the kind of cars I like - with the exception of the occasional entrance or exit ramps that are empty.
Anything that is slower than 4.0 in the 0-60 or 11.9 in the 1/4 mile ( including SUVs) is slow to me.
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With my budget, I'm basically looking for something that will accelerate from 70 mph decently well without downshifting and flooring it, and feels reasonably perky around town. The fastest I've driven is in a CTS-V at COTA on the back straight. I didn't look down to check my speed, the instructors told us we should be over 140. Stuff was going by quite rapidly and I focused on steering and when to brake.
We ABUSED those brakes so much they told us they replaced the pads and tires after one day's event. That was a fun time.
In a Cessna doing 140 of course is pretty much nothing.
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I like having power out of the gate and the ability to effortlessly pass.
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I like a lot of things, but will settle for what makes basic sense, usually.
I like high end Burgundy wines, but those days are pretty much over. We did splurge a bit on the condo, but it's worth it, to us.
I at times check how much it would cost to upgrade from Delta Comfort to Delta One and laugh, to myself, no chance.
They want $330 per to upgrade to first class for one leg of our upcoming trip.
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I like having power out of the gate and the ability to effortlessly pass.
Power out of the gate is one thing EVs generally are quite good at.
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Power out of the gate is one thing EVs generally are quite good at.
Yeah, and as I pointed out, there are cars out there with deceptive HP numbers that require you "drive it like you stole it" to be in the powerband. The old Honda S2000 was notorious for this, with a 9K RPM redline and a powerband that peaked up in that range. For example, here's a dyno I've found of a stock S2000 (https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-talk-1/s2000-dyno-charts-833293/).
(https://i.imgur.com/ZJeBZwa.png)
I complain about this with my Flex, honestly. Reported HP numbers are 285 hp, but the motor has variable valve timing that only really opens it up at high RPM. And a Flex, of course, is not designed to be driven at high RPM. I could have gotten the EcoBoost engine which is turbocharged, which would have made a big difference there as turbo engines help with low-end torque. Of course, the EcoBoost models cos about $5K more, and research I did on the vehicle reported issues with the AWD on those models, so I avoided it.
Now compare that to an EV. Below are the torque/HP curves of two model 3's both in performance mode and "chill" mode (https://nationalspeedinc.com/tesla-dyno/).
(https://i.imgur.com/qMCykjr.png)
Those torque curves suggest you're not gonna have ANY trouble off the line or accelerating to highway speed.
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I like a lot of things, but will settle for what makes basic sense, usually.
I like high end Burgundy wines, but those days are pretty much over. We did splurge a bit on the condo, but it's worth it, to us.
I at times check how much it would cost to upgrade from Delta Comfort to Delta One and laugh, to myself, no chance.
They want $330 per to upgrade to first class for one leg of our upcoming trip.
If what you like is within your means, it makes sense.
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AWD helps a lot as well of course once you pass a certain power level. I'd guess some EV buyers like that feeling, it impresses them these aren't "golf carts". And they can smoke Camaros if they want to.
The new Corvette E-ray has an interesting design, it's apparently not much faster than a Stingray 0-60, but it's tougher to get times down from 3 seconds.
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My wife, fortunately, is pretty sensible about spending. But she does like top of the line items often as not. She says she'd rather do without than buy something not good enough. We splurge on cabins when we cruise. I'll pay for the extra leg room in Comfort seats over Main Cabin. We dine out fairly often. I signed four of us up for a tour to the top of Mauna Kea next week, that was pricey. Hopefully the weather cooperates. Last time we were there, it was cancelled three nights in a row.
She didn't want to dine out this week because she knows we'll be spending a fair bit on our trip (two weeks).
But buying an EV has to make sense, to me, and it doesn't.
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I like the McClaren cars - a lot.
I'll never own one unless a pile of money falls into my lap. They are simply not practical for us, so it's not a car for a one-car household, which is what we are (well, and that crappy EV golf cart).
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I'm an American car guy
but, if the right Porsche came along I could pull the trigger
Finding a good mechanic might be an issue
couldn't afford a new one and nearest dealership is 90 miles away
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Next car will be a GLE, most likely. Probably the GLE43. I like the AMG enhancements.
(https://i.imgur.com/JmOI5wS.png)
The full AMG GLE63 is pretty pricey and has way more power than I'd ever use.
The 43 makes almost 400HP. The 63 makes over 600HP.
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My pitching coach has a nice looking GLE. He likes it, I think it's the standard model.
2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE-Class Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/gle-class)
The 0-60 times are indicative of something real, I think, but can be misleading at times, or even somewhat irrelevant. We rarely bury the loud pedal, or use launch control.
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launch control is cool
but, it's cheating
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DETROIT (AP) — America’s automakers have staked their futures on the notion that electric vehicles will dominate sales in the coming years, spurred by buyers determined to reduce carbon emissions and save on fuel.
But so far, while EV sales are growing, their pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable for transitioning away from combustion engines. Instead, buyers are increasingly embracing a quarter-century-old technology whose popularity has been surging: The gas-electric hybrid, which alternates from gas to battery power to maximize efficiency.
So far in 2023, Americans have bought a record 1 million-plus hybrids — up 76% from the same period last year, according to Edmunds.com. As recently as last year, purchases had fallen below 2021’s total. This year’s figures don’t even include sales of 148,000 plug-in hybrids, which drive a short distance on battery power before a gas-electric system kicks in.
https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-electric-vehicles-auto-sales-charging-stations-97b444cfa752acbd3a5c244a3ee68abb (https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-electric-vehicles-auto-sales-charging-stations-97b444cfa752acbd3a5c244a3ee68abb)
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Hertz Has a Loss on Its EV Fleet. Blame Tesla Pricing Decisions.
Rental car giant Hertz is selling 20,000 all-electric vehicles. The sale will generate a loss of about $245 million. Investors aren’t happy.
The offloading of the vehicles will cut the company's global EV fleet by one-third, Hertz said in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
"The company expects this action to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs," the company said.
Hertz said it expects the sale of the EVs to "take place in an orderly fashion over the course of 2024." It started offloading them late last year.
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Maine has received a $15 million federal grant to install nearly 600 electric vehicle charging stations in more than 70 cities and towns, increasing the number available by more than 50%.
The Biden administration on Thursday announced the funding to pay for 62 DC Fast Charger ports and 520 Level 2 charging ports. The 582 ports will add to the 1,019 already in operation at 467 sites, according to Efficiency Maine, the quasi-state agency that develops energy efficiency programs.
Building out an EV charging network has been a critical part of the debate in Maine over establishing new rules requiring electric vehicle use. An “Advanced Clean Cars II” plan would require zero-emission vehicles to make up 43% of new car sales for 2028 models and 82% of new sales by model year 2032. Those include electric and fuel-cell vehicles, along with a partial credit for plug-in hybrids. Environmentalists are urging action to reduce tailpipe fumes that account for a large part of Maine’s greenhouse gas emissions.
The proposal has drawn criticism from car dealers, Republicans and others who say EVs are too costly for many Mainers and that EVs don’t have the charging range to drive across the state’s vast rural areas. The state Board of Environmental Protection postponed its vote on the proposal in December due to a storm, but now could take up the matter sometime after a new public comment period that ends Feb. 5.
https://www.pressherald.com/2024/01/11/maine-receives-15m-federal-grant-to-install-hundreds-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/ (https://www.pressherald.com/2024/01/11/maine-receives-15m-federal-grant-to-install-hundreds-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/)
The number of registered battery and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in Maine has increased by 33%, from 9,244 in 2022 to 12,369 at the end of last year, the governor’s office said.
Adam Lee, chairman of the board of Lee Auto Malls, said being able to charge electric vehicles when not at home is one of several factors that customers consider. His dealerships are selling only about five or six EVs a month, a small share of the 600 to 700 vehicles he sells, even with “very good incentives,” he said.
Until recently Lee said his dealerships had trouble getting inventory because of limited supply, though more are now being delivered.
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What about the Grid? Cut funding to all the bullshit special interests left and right. These short sighted suck asses they really should be caned then tasered
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62 DC Fast Charger ports and 520 Level 2 charging ports spread out aren't going to bother the grid
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Well if it's going to go forward like these loons want it will
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patience my man
it will burn down soon enough
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Jan 11 (Reuters) - Lucid Group (LCID.O) said on Thursday its deliveries and production fell in the fourth quarter from a year earlier, sending its shares down to a record low.
High interest rates have weakened demand for EVs as customers cut back on big-ticket purchases, which has prompted automakers such as Ford (F.N) and General Motors (GM.N) to push back their planned EV and battery factory expansion plans.
Lucid has also been hit by a price war started by market leader Tesla a year ago (TSLA.O) to solidify its EV market share and combat slowing demand.
"With (Lucid) shares hitting a new record low, we see little in the way of fundamental or technical support for the stock and expect additional lows to be set," said Garrett Nelson, senior equity analyst at CFRA Research in a research note.
Lucid's deliveries fell about 10% to 1,734 vehicles in the three months to Dec. 31, compared with 1,932 units it handed over in the year-ago quarter.
Sector peer Rivian (RIVN.O) missed market expectations for deliveries in the final quarter of 2023 due to a broader slowdown in EV demand in the United States.
Lucid's production fell about 31% to 2,391 vehicles in the quarter, taking its annual production to 8,428 vehicles, in line with its lowered target of 8,000 to 8,500 units.
In November, the company cut down its earlier production forecast from more than 10,000 units, saying it needed "to prudently align (its output) with deliveries."
Shares of the company, backed by Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund (PIF), fell around 38% last year.
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They want investments,wait untl the Spring when the Horse Track Opens like the rest of us
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U.S. consumers looking to get a tax credit on an electric vehicle purchase have fewer models to choose from under new rules that limit the countries where automakers can buy battery parts and minerals — a potential blow to efforts to reduce planet-warming emissions from autos.
The Inflation Reduction Act signed into law in 2022 expanded tax credits ranging from $3,750 to $7,500 for purchases of new and used EVs, an effort by the Biden administration to stoke demand toward its goal that half of all new vehicle sales be electric by 2030. But qualifying for the credits depends on requirements related to their battery makeup and minerals that get tougher each year.
As of Jan. 1, new rules favor U.S. domestic materials and manufacture. The rules largely target battery components from nations “of concern” — mostly China, but also Russia, North Korea and Iran.
China dominates crucial parts of EV battery supply and production, even as automakers race to establish key mineral and components efforts elsewhere. As a result, only 13 of the more than 50 EVs on sale in the U.S. are eligible for the credits so far this year, down from about two dozen models that qualified in 2023.
The Tesla Model Y SUV, Chevrolet Bolt compact car and Rivian R1T pickup truck all still qualify. But even different trim levels and variants of the same model now qualify differently; certain Teslas are no longer eligible.
Neither are the Chevrolet Blazer SUV and the Cadillac Lyriq, from General Motors; the Ford Mustang Mach-E; or the Nissan Leaf.
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I would expect continued discounts at dealerships on EV's... they have inventory that is not moving.
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yup, they said something about the dealerships discounting to match what would have been the tax credit
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/hertz-tesla-and-the-perils-of-groupthink-electric-vehicles-auto-industry-dd50c158?st=9an81su90iofyp8&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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Exhibit 10,469 against EV's.
Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: 'A bunch of dead robots out here' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/ar-AA1n1Q5i?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=489427b06ef0420f884e302e67799bcc&ei=22)
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hah, haven't heard anything about that here yet, but not many folks use the super stations.
Heck, there aren't many.
________________________________
One expert told the news outlet that cold weather can impact the ability of electric vehicles to charge properly.
"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge," said Mark Bilek of the Chicago Auto Trade Association.
FOX Business has reached out to Tesla, but has not yet heard back.
_______________________________________________
and expert!
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This is why they should have pushed hybrids. You can slowly change battery-to-engine ratios (to an extent). But not leave people in the cold.
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battery warmers are very simple
they're just expensive
like winterizing the windmills in Texas - not enough payback for the few times they're needed with extreme weather
but, knowing all this......... they should warn end users and have a plan "B"
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Ford says it’s reducing production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup vehicle as it adjusts to weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth
Ford is cutting production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup after weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth.
While EV sales are growing in the U.S., the pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable and many consumers are turning to hybrid vehicles instead.
Ford sold just over 24,000 Lightnings last year, up 55% from 2022. But dealers are reporting slower sales and rising inventories on the electric truck, which starts at just under $50,000.
Electric vehicle sales overall grew 47% to a record 1.19 million last year, according to Motorintelligence.com. The EV market share grew from 5.8% in 2022 to 7.6% last year. But EV sales growth slowed toward the end of the year. In December, they rose 34%.
Ford said that about 1,400 workers will be affected by the move to lower F-150 Lightning production, with the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center transitioning to one shift, effective April 1. Approximately 700 employees will transfer to Ford's Michigan Assembly Plant while other workers will be placed in roles at the Rouge Complex or other facilities in Southeast Michigan. Some employees are expected to take advantage of the Special Retirement Incentive Program agreed to in the 2023 Ford-UAW contract.
“We are taking advantage of our manufacturing flexibility to offer customers choices while balancing our growth and profitability,” Ford CEO Jim Farley said in a statement Friday.
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47% YoY unit sales growth and 31% YoY market share growth, both projected to got again in 2024.
What a failure! :smiley_confused1:
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Failure.
The F-150 Lightning drew oohs and aahs from the press when it was unveiled in May 2021. Yet the electric pickup has been plagued with defects that have required recalls. It sold a mere 24,165 Lightnings last year and lost roughly $36,000 on each EV in the third quarter.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-production-electric-vehicles-biden-administration-1c3fc8d0?st=o41rdznplachc0i&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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47% YoY unit sales growth and 31% YoY market share growth, both projected to got again in 2024.
What a failure! :smiley_confused1:
according to Motorintelligence.com.
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https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-demand-still-strong-despite-slowdown-hybrids-survey-2024-1
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And there is this math problem with EVs not charged at home.
Right now, I'm for mild hybrids broadly speaking.
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Florida Drivers Discover Hard Truth About EVs: They Eat Tires (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/florida-drivers-discover-hard-truth-about-evs-they-eat-1851194045?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1706198403&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1jbdliUqCinqgGCfVfG-A81Fwr7OEkquC81skI5d0BWrkd4Lmwy9mqews)
So why the fast wear? It’s a combination of lots of power that can be put down instantly and wild curb weights. But it also comes down to individual driving style, as Sanchez pointed out. “If you drive like grandma, the type of car shouldn’t make a difference,” Sanchez said.
What do tire companies have to say about all of this? They’re aware of the problem and are working on EV-specific solutions. Like Michelin who spoke to The Herald on what it’s up to:
Michelin suggests getting the Primacy tire for electric vehicles, which they say offers an up to 7% increase in range. Michelin also launched “Self seal” which would self-repair punctures and cut back on some weight by not needing to keep a spare wheel in the back.
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What are the differences in plug-in hybrid and regular hybrid?
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What are the differences in plug-in hybrid and regular hybrid?
You get 30-40 miles of initial range with the former on batteries alone. They have larger batteries of course, and you can drive on electric "around town" usually.
Our hybrid gives you about 100 feet, and you can't plug it in.
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Yeah, a lot of PHEV owners buy them knowing 90%+ of their driving habits won't require going off battery, but having the capability is nice for people who think they can't live with a full BEV due to range anxiety.
Although I think they may be a sort of "gateway drug" to full BEV. A lot of the ones I've talked to with PHEV find that they're actually only filling up their gas tank 2-3 times a year because the electric range covers almost all of their driving. So they look at a car with 200-300 miles of electric range and don't get the same range anxiety as someone switching from ICEV.
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There is still an issue with the cost of driving on electric if you can't plug in at home of course. I see data showing commercial chargers cost 30-60 cents per kWHr for power, and it takes 30 or so kWhrs to go 100 miles. Our basic hybrid goes 100 miles in town at about 36 mpg, so 2.8 gallons, which around here is under $3/gallon, so $8.33.
It's as cheap or cheaper to just buy the gas. Maybe my math is wrong.
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There is still an issue with the cost of driving on electric if you can't plug in at home of course. I see data showing commercial chargers cost 30-60 cents per kWHr for power, and it takes 30 or so kWhrs to go 100 miles. Our basic hybrid goes 100 miles in town at about 36 mpg, so 2.8 gallons, which around here is under $3/gallon, so $8.33.
It's as cheap or cheaper to just buy the gas. Maybe my math is wrong.
No, I completely agree. If you can't charge at home, most of the advantages of EV go right out the window.
Even if the cost WAS lower to charge publicly, the bigger problem would be time. Requiring EVERY time you "fill up" to take 1/2 hour or so (typical for a 20->80 charge at a Tesla supercharger I believe) is just not convenient when the alternative is <5 minutes for ICEV.
Although for a PHEV, when you only need to add 20-30 miles worth of range, you can do that on straight 110V AC overnight easily. In most cases, you don't need to install an L2 charger because unlike a full BEV, you're never adding 200 miles worth of range at once. If you have a BEV but drive mostly PHEV-like trips, as well, you can probably "get by" with 110V charging knowing that you may every once in a while need to publicly charge in a pinch. It's only if you're driving pretty heavy mileage on a daily basis that you *MUST* have the L2 charger.
But if you can't charge at home at all, it doesn't make much sense.
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Do those plug-in's work on 110?
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I priced a car like mine that is a PHEV, same model, it cost about $6,000 more (and isn't available here). It claimed about 35 miles electric range, which really sounds appealing until you look at the math for public chargers.
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Do those plug-in's work on 110?
They can, and usually should be fine as you don't need much power transfer. A 110 v outlet will add 3-4 miles in an hour o charging, which is terrible if your EV gas 300 miles of range, but the plug ins only have ~35 miles of range. So, you'd need ten hours for a full charge (which would not be typical).
Average electricity cost here is 12 cents per kWhr AT HOME, so it would work reasonaly well for folks with a home.
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I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
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I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
20, 21... whatever it takes.
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I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
That was my concern when we got our L2. When we finished the basement on our house, we only had one slot left in our panel, and the L2 charger would take two slots. Not sure if it was 100% code compliant, but the install guys (which was done for free by-the-way) were able to combine two other circuits into one slot and then add in the charger circuit. Haven't blown any fuses / panels yet, so apparently it isn't too bad.
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This is another advantage of a plug in hybrid, you really would only need 110v. I'm not sure how long it could take to pay back thhe $6-7 K upcharge for it. They do usually have better acceleration than the hybrid or ICE version of the same vehicle. Our Hyundai is almost 2 seconds faster to 60 than the pure ICe version, and the plug in variant is even faster.
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A 2022 Volvo XC60 plug-in is about $10K more than the normal XC60. The 2022 XC60 plug-in is about the same price as a 2022 M-B GLE.
I now have a plan, and it doesn't involve me breaking out my lineman pliars, wire stripper and buying a breaker, wire and outlet.
(https://i.imgur.com/HMq13fj.png)
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You might find limited availability of these plug ins, or even many hybrids.
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Some advantages and disadvantages of various types are pretty clear. I opine at the moment the best compromise is with a "mild hybrid" vs plug in or EV or ICE vehicles. I'd note a lot of supercars are going to be hybrids now for more power including one Corvette model.
If you are a 2 car family and own a home, a small EV MIGHT make sense for you as a second car.
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Some advantages and disadvantages of various types are pretty clear. I opine at the moment the best compromise is with a "mild hybrid" vs plug in or EV or ICE vehicles. I'd note a lot of supercars are going to be hybrids now for more power including one Corvette model.
If you are a 2 car family and own a home, a small EV MIGHT make sense for you as a second car.
It does for us.
(https://i.imgur.com/4jX2UaQ.png)
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L2 charger should take 30-50 amps ( 230V of course). It depends on the specific model.
# 10-# 6 AWG wire , depending on length and current.
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General Motors (GM) and Honda have introduced their groundbreaking joint venture, Fuel Cell System Manufacturing (FCSM), investing $85 million in an advanced Michigan facility for large-scale hydrogen fuel cell production.
The 70,000-square-foot facility aims to enhance performance, durability, and cost-effectiveness of hydrogen fuel cells.
The collaboration positions GM and Honda as leaders in sustainable transportation, with Honda planning to implement the new hydrogen system in its CR-V model by 2024.
The hydrogen fuel cell system is expected to cost one-third as much as its predecessor, contributing to broader accessibility of sustainable technology.
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How Long Should An Electric Car's Battery Last? (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/features/707588/ev-battery-life-how-long/?fbclid=IwAR0n7GFBAncbVdlV3965i3ro4ewRt7WubTPPCqwF17Kh-LLyjK39FZ3gIII)
nsurance site The Zebra surveyed Americans last year, finding that the average length of car ownership is about eight years. The good news is that EVs have long battery warranties, and most can be expected to offer a usable life of between eight and 12 years. Automakers are required to provide at least an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty for electric vehicles, and EVs sold in California are required to have a ten-year/150,000-mile battery warranty.
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Given that charging away from home costs the same, or more, as gasoline, and batteries last ~10 years (after which the car is basically valueless, or nearly so), and they wear tires quickly (apparently), why should I buy one?
(I've noted before, if you charge at home and it's a second car, it COULD make sense.)
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Given that charging away from home costs the same, or more, as gasoline, and batteries last ~10 years (after which the car is basically valueless, or nearly so), and they wear tires quickly (apparently), why should I buy one?
(I've noted before, if you charge at home and it's a second car, it COULD make sense.)
You shouldn't. The advantages of EVs are things you can't really take advantage of, so you're basically stuck living with the disadvantages.
They're not for everyone and every situation. If you can't charge cheaply at home, which is the biggest advantage, there's not much in it.
I think the battery life thing is still speculation. Musk says that Tesla batteries should last 300-500K miles. Of course you know how much credence I put in anything HE says... But I think with proper thermal management, these batteries may last long enough to not be a concern.
Tires are an issue due to weight, of course, and possibly due to power if people are driving the EVs hard because of their acceleration. But that's also balanced by reduction in brake usage and seemingly in other maintenance costs, so I don't know how big of an issue it will be.
Judging by the cars some of you folks here drive, I'm pretty sure you're already working with pretty substantial tire budgets :57:
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You shouldn't. The advantages of EVs are things you can't really take advantage of, so you're basically stuck living with the disadvantages.
They're not for everyone and every situation. If you can't charge cheaply at home, which is the biggest advantage, there's not much in it.
I think the battery life thing is still speculation. Musk says that Tesla batteries should last 300-500K miles. Of course you know how much credence I put in anything HE says... But I think with proper thermal management, these batteries may last long enough to not be a concern.
Tires are an issue due to weight, of course, and possibly due to power if people are driving the EVs hard because of their acceleration. But that's also balanced by reduction in brake usage and seemingly in other maintenance costs, so I don't know how big of an issue it will be.
Judging by the cars some of you folks here drive, I'm pretty sure you're already working with pretty substantial tire budgets :57:
Pickups and Jeeps, and now my daughter's Mustang. We're not living in a world of cheap tires that's for sure.
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Pickups and Jeeps, and now my daughter's Mustang. We're not living in a world of cheap tires that's for sure.
Same.
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10 year batteries???
a large percentage of vehicles on the road older than 10 years
the Auto industry would love to have most folks scrapping vehicles after 10-12 years
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What happens to the spent batteries?
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"Eventually", they would get reprocessed. Currently it's expensive and they basically have negative value.
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An Analysis of Average Age of Cars on the Road (hedgescompany.com) (https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/)
12.4 years, on average, it's probably longer for light duty trucks.
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Mine is 10.5 years old. Still looks and feels like new.
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Cars today clearly last a lot longer than in the 1960s. Rust is one aspect of that. Expense is another, but overall quality and durability is way better.
I recall spending a lot of time on weekend on routine maintenance.
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if the batteries don't last 15 years then the average is gonna trend down
I suppose a certain percentage of 20 year old vehicles on the road today have had an engine or other significant replacement, but not a very high percentage
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I view it as another reason to "wait", one of many. Maybe we'll have some battery breakthrough or a Mr. Fusion Junior.
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use fusion to make hydrogen
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Use hydrogen to make fusion.
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Daimler releases 'open source' hydrogen fueling standard for trucks (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/02/09/daimler-releases-open-source-hydrogen-fueling-standard-for-heavy-trucks/?fbclid=IwAR0NUdoOcvyZ4yY_7cLYoQSHAxs4wcm3dukM6R2w7pmGG7Ud7B7gg6HtCZE)
I suspect the first time one of these tanks ruptures and does a Hburg, this all will stop.
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If you own an electric car or want to purchase one soon, you’ll need to know what EV incentives exist that can help you defray costs. Many states offer rebates and tax deductions to make the transition to electric vehicles more attractive, like electricity discounts or bill credits. These bonuses can also apply to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), fuel cell electric vehicles, electric motorcycles, and more.
This article will outline the incentives available in each state. Because state incentives continue to evolve, we plan to update as new information becomes available. See our story on federal incentives to find out about those.
https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/electric-vehicle-rebates-by-state/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/electric-vehicle-rebates-by-state/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand)
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In summary, you might want an EV IFF you own a home (or rent single family) and need a second car for getting around town. You could easily manage with a cheaper version, a Bolt or Leaf or equivalent and try for the $7500 TC. You probably only need 150 miles of range to feel confident about it. You can charge over night after driving 40 miles a day even using 110 outlets. This works best in California or Hawaii even if electricity prices are high.
I still notice relatively few EVs in France today. I chatted about it with our driver, he had a Mercedes Diesel. He told us they were basically forcing an EV on him when he needs another vehicle and it was a big concern for him.
The odd thing, to me, in France, is how many of these 2 stroke scooters run about. They pollute like crazy. I did note a sparse few EV scooters. They sound like 2 stroke engines to me.
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In summary, you might want an EV IFF you own a home (or rent single family) and need a second car for getting around town.
With you on the first part, but don't think the second is true. Unless you're routinely driving 200+ miles per day, which is pretty uncommon, I don't think it needs to be a "second car".
Yes, charging will add a little extra tone on road trips, but unless you're taking LOTS of road trips, I see that as a minor annoyance. Likewise if you're going to have 3-4 200+ mile days per year, having to publicly charge again is a minor annoyance.
Considering it's balanced against the benefit of NEVER having to go to the gas station in daily life, for many that's worth it even as the only vehicle they own.
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Sure, I shouldn't have sounded so limiting. For some folks, a single EV would work just fine if they don't expect to travel with it.
The key, to me, is anyone who might have to recharge the thing at a commercial charging site fairly often, as would be the case on a trip.
The other option is to have the EV for local travel and rent a car if you need it for a trip. Or you could have a plug in hybrid.
We're getting about 33 mpg overall with the Hyundai. I filled up at Costco yesterday under $3. We drive about 6,000 miles a year, so <200 gallons at $3, not that large an expense relatively speaking.
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The odd thing, to me, in France, is how many of these 2 stroke scooters run about. They pollute like crazy. I did note a sparse few EV scooters. They sound like 2 stroke engines to me.
Tons more motorcycles on the road in Europe as well, in my experience. And though not all of them pollute like a 2-stroke scooter, they still produce a ton of the smog-forming gases and carbon monoxide.
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Sure, I shouldn't have sounded so limiting. For some folks, a single EV would work just fine if they don't expect to travel with it.
The key, to me, is anyone who might have to recharge the thing at a commercial charging site fairly often, as would be the case on a trip.
The other option is to have the EV for local travel and rent a car if you need it for a trip. Or you could have a plug in hybrid.
We're getting about 33 mpg overall with the Hyundai. I filled up at Costco yesterday under $3. We drive about 6,000 miles a year, so <200 gallons at $3, not that large an expense relatively speaking.
Yeah, <6K miles a year also makes an EV less of a benefit, since the acquisition costs are typically higher than ICEV.
But my view is that if 95%+ of your driving can occur w/o ever needing a public charger, I think a lot of people would be willing to make the tradeoff of otherwise never having to go to a gas station. I can say from talking to EV owners, the fact that they almost never even have to think about their car's charge (b/c it's always charged when they leave their house), and almost never need to go out of their way to "fill up", is one of the advantages that they never thought about but absolutely love.
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Tons more motorcycles on the road in Europe as well, in my experience. And though not all of them pollute like a 2-stroke scooter, they still produce a ton of the smog-forming gases and carbon monoxide.
I do think most motorcycles in the US are now required to have catalytic converters, and many have O2 sensors, which IMHO helps regarding those types of polluting (i.e. separating out C02) emissions. They may not be on par with a modern car on an emissions per engine displacement level, but they have much smaller displacement so there's at least some offset there. It wouldn't surprise me if 1 person on a 600cc motorcycle vs 1 person in a 2.5L passenger car might now have lower total emissions.
And here in CA, you don't spend as much time idling in traffic on a bike because we allow lane-splitting.
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Maybe the main key is being able to plug in at home. (Price is another of course.)
For most of us outside CA, I don't think it makes sense broadly speaking.
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Maybe the main key is being able to plug in at home. (Price is another of course.)
For most of us outside CA, I don't think it makes sense broadly speaking.
Yes, I think that plugging in at home is really the first go/no-go checkpoint.
Which isn't to say that if you can plug in at home, an EV is for you. But that if you CAN'T plug in at home, it probably is NOT for you. Once you satisfy the "plug in at home" checkpoint then you can assess price, driving habits, unique needs, etc to see if it makes sense. As mentioned if you're someone like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) and you need to tow decent distances frequently, something like an F-150 Lightning would still probably be excluded based on driving habits / unique needs.
Other aspects (such as whether you've installed solar and/or home battery storage) can also dramatically tip the scales, because it can make driving effectively "free" as it relates to marginal cost, i.e. if you don't count the amortization of the solar/backup installation.
BTW I'm not sure CA is some slam dunk... While it makes sense on the surface because gas is really expensive here relative to the rest of the US, so is electricity. I still think EV is relatively cheaper than ICEV, but it's probably not by as much as you'd think if you only look at gas prices.
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This conversation made me go randomly search up F150 Lightning towing data, and I found this interesting Youtube segment where they compare an F150 lightning to a standard F150 turbo hybrid. Most of it is expected and aligns to our conversations here, but they did manage to get more towing distance out of the Lightning than I expected. Seems like a full charge would have gotten them around 150-160 miles, as it is they only went down to 20% and got around 130 miles I think. Fast-charging back to 80% took 45 mins, and then their range would have been something like another 120 miles. Going all the way to 100% took a total of 2hrs 10 mins, that last 20% charges much more slowly as we already know.
So if you just went from 80% to 20% you'd be stopping about every 1.5-2 hours, and recharging for around 45 mins to an hour each time. That's not ideal but it is better than I expected. This is outside of Chicago so it's flat, obviously hills and mountains would diminish the range more quickly.
One other thing they brought up that I hadn't really thought about, is that gassing up your ICEV whilst towing is a very straightforward thing. You can easily plan a route that has large, convenient gas stations with easy entrance/egress capability with your trailer attached. But electric chargers are not typically placed in easy pull-through locations. They had to disconnect their trailer in order to move the F150 Lightning to the charging bay. It's not the end of the world, I can disconnect and reconnect in under 10 mins per, but it's another inconvenience when comparing ICEV to EV for towing purposes. Anyway, whole video is here, it's somewhat interesting (to people like me, anyway).
Oh another thing I saw is that they now have max towing capacity on the turbo hybrid, so it's finally coming into range for my purposes. The F150 full EV on the other hand, maxes out a couple thousand pounds less, so even if the distance limitations weren't prohibitive, the towing capacity still is.
https://www.cars.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-vs-f-150-hybrid-what-we-learned-towing-and-hauling-with-an-electric-truck-455992/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-vs-f-150-hybrid-what-we-learned-towing-and-hauling-with-an-electric-truck-455992/)
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Biden administration may slow early stage of shift to electric cars | The Spokesman-Review (https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2024/feb/17/biden-administration-may-slow-early-stage-of-shift/)
Last spring, the Environmental Protection Agency proposed the toughest limits on tailpipe emissions. The rules would be so strict, the only way carmakers could comply would be to sell a tremendous number of zero-emissions vehicles in a relatively short time frame.
The EPA designed the proposed regulations so that 67% of sales of new cars and light-duty trucks would be all-electric by 2032, up from 7.6% in 2023, a radical remaking of the American automobile market.
That remains the goal. But as they finalize the regulations, administration officials are tweaking the plan to slow the pace at which auto manufacturers would need to comply, so that electric vehicle sales would increase more gradually through 2030 but then would have to sharply rise.
The change in pacing is in response to automakers that say more time is needed to build a national network of charging stations and to bring down the cost of electric vehicles, and to labor unions that want more time to try to unionize new electric car plants that are opening around the country, particularly in the South. But delaying the most stringent requirements of the rule could come at a cost to the climate, after the hottest year in recorded history.
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We apparently are seeing the classic "early adopter" syndrome that happens with every innovation that the public can accept, or not. I recall when CDs first hit the market, CD players were very pricey, I wanted one, badly. The Sony was $1,000 then, just a basic CD player, and CDs were in the $20 range, these prices would be about double adjusted for inflation.
The Sony finally went on sale for $600 and I bought one. It was most cool, no more scratches on vinyl to worry about. It took some time, and steep price drops, for more folks to "adopt" one. Now of course they are out of style.
With EVs, as discussed, there are more issues than just initial entry price, though that's a large one. But I sense most folks who really wanted an EV bought one anyway, and the rest of "us" are standing by waiting. The practicality of an EV is "not there yet" for many of us regular folk.
So, Tesla got out of the gate with the early adopters and then the majors stepped in just at the time when demand was sagging below projections, still growing, but not as fast as their straight lines suggested (duh).
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While buyers of new electric vehicles are eligible for up to $7,500 in federal tax credits, only 18 models are currently eligible for that full credit, down from about two dozen last year. One of those eligible models, the Ford F-150 Lightning, an all-electric pickup truck that once had a waiting list of 200,000, last year saw sales of 24,000, far short of the 150,000 sales projected by Ford.
And while construction of EV chargers is expanding, nearly doubling from about 87,000 in 2019 to more than 172,000 last year, analysts project that the nation will need more than 2 million chargers by 2030 to support the growth in electric vehicles envisioned by the proposed rules.
All that worries auto companies, which have invested about $146 billion over the past three years in researching and developing electric vehicles, according to the Center for Automotive Research, a nonprofit organization in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Auto companies would face billions of dollars per year in fines if the emissions associated with their auto sales exceed the limits set by the new regulations.
The Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents 42 car companies that produce about 97% of the new vehicles sold in the United States, asked the administration for the same slowdown sought by the UAW.
“Pace matters,” John Bozzella, president of the alliance, said in an interview. “Give the market and supply chains a chance to catch up, maintain a customer’s ability to choose, let more public charging come online.”
Analysts say the current lag in electric vehicle sales is to be expected, as the market for early adopters – typically wealthier, coastal residents who have bought an EV as a second car – is saturated.
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The EPA designed the proposed regulations so that 67% of sales of new cars and light-duty trucks would be all-electric by 2032, up from 7.6% in 2023, a radical remaking of the American automobile market.
That remains the goal. But as they finalize the regulations, administration officials are tweaking the plan to slow the pace at which auto manufacturers would need to comply, so that electric vehicle sales would increase more gradually through 2030 but then would have to sharply rise.
gee whiz
set unrealistic goals
then "as you finalize" the regulations, back way off
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Might be an election soon also.
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automakers
possibly a stronger lobby than the egg producers
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Pros and Cons of Electric Cars: Everything You Need to Know (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41001087/pros-and-cons-electric-cars/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0yRs9M2_Cv3gnFLr5b__fHO83RSNSkKYrnPNOgm00OtdWeRLc4D7uOqRw)
Oddly, this doesn't mention the relaive high cost of charging away from home as compared with just using gasoline. To me, that is a MAJOR consideration.
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Pros and Cons of Electric Cars: Everything You Need to Know (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41001087/pros-and-cons-electric-cars/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0yRs9M2_Cv3gnFLr5b__fHO83RSNSkKYrnPNOgm00OtdWeRLc4D7uOqRw)
Oddly, this doesn't mention the relaive high cost of charging away from home as compared with just using gasoline. To me, that is a MAJOR consideration.
Yeah, the article was heavier on driving/lifestyle characteristics and quite lean on economics. It did touch on a home charger being the most cost-effective method, but that was one line in the article.
Plus I don't think they were going for an "if you can't charge at home, don't even think about it!" tone in this article lol...
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I would have said "Note that charging away from home can be as expensive as buying gasoline.".
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and take a little longer
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They mention that aspect of recharging times, but not the expense. A LOT of folks think it's cheaper to drive an EV, always, and it isn't, not even close.
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Just so we can discuss the topic under this headline.
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This 1.2 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/?fbclid=IwAR3N4wJK-eO-lIfWiHgU1taZIZli58gV0fmJ_2u6QB5yxzlPhrIo94oCQvk)
Some early Tesla Model S EVs were known to have issues with their rear motors. This particular Tesla suffered from this. The rear motor was replaced thirteen times, so if we include the original that it came with, that's fourteen motors over the course of 1.2 million miles.
Most of the replacement motors were actually refurbished units and the problem there is that Tesla didn't know the real issue so it didn't know how to properly fix the motors. Some of these replacement motors failed very quickly. Some were covered under warranty, while others were not.
In regards to the vehicle's battery pack, it fared better than the motor. However, this Model S is currently on its fourth battery pack. Four batteries at 1.2 million miles mean that the average pack lasted some 300,000 and counting, which is actually a strong showing in our opinion.
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Just bought a 2024 4Runner Limited. Gets 12-17 mpg.
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Gas prices today are pretty much the same as they've always been adjusted for inflation.
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Proof That EV Tires Can Save You Hundreds Of Dollars (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/features/709902/ev-tires-save-money-erange/?fbclid=IwAR1rl586Vm4xbGYWssKDYVFNsI_uLrkBcQu1yzElj9cV75rt04OpgwFMkoo)
For the sake of argument, let’s say you’re the owner of a Genesis G70 Electrified who lives in southern California. Your car has an EPA-rated range of 236 miles and the cost of electricity to your home is 28.8 cents per kilowatt hour (this was the average cost of electricity (https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyprices_losangeles.htm#:~:text=Los Angeles area households paid,per therm spent last year.) in Los Angeles for December 2023).
Figuring out how much energy your EV uses per mile is pretty easy. The EPA states the G70 Electrified uses 37 kilowatt hours of electricity for every 100 miles driven, so simple division tells us it uses .37 kWh of electricity per mile. If your electricity costs 28.8 cents per kWh, then it costs you just 10.656 cents to drive one mile in your G70 Electrified.
Now let’s multiply that over 50,000 miles, which is within the treadwear lifespan of a set of tires. If energy costs you 10.656 cents per mile, driving your Genesis 50,000 miles on stock tires would cost you $5,328 in electricity. This is a thought experiment so we’re not taking into account the fluctuating price of electricity over time, including the time of day you’re charging, but it gives us a general idea of cost we can use to compare with a set of EV-specific tires.
The rate for charging at home is quite different from the rate at a commercial charging station. And of course, around here regular is about $3 per gallon. Presuming say 33 mpg, which is doable, you're spending less than 10 cents per mile on gasoline.
[img width=649 height=365.047 alt=Genesis Electrified GV70 fast charging]https://cdn.motor1.com/images/static/16x9-tr.png[/img][/size][/color]
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The rate for charging at home is quite different from the rate at a commercial charging station. And of course, around here regular is about $3 per gallon. Presuming say 33 mpg, which is doable, you're spending less than 10 cents per mile on gasoline.
Of course you're comparing an article describing someone based in SoCal with your gas prices. And they stated SoCal energy prices are 28.2 cents/kWh.
A quick google search (http://quick google search) suggests Atlanta electricity is going for 15 cents/kWh. Which would mean that the same GV70 Electrified would be driven for about 5.668 cents per mile in Atlanta vs SoCal.
While your hypothetical 33 mpg gas car in SoCal, where gas around me is currently around $4.50/gal, would be roughly 15 cents per mile.
And that's not even getting into the fact that the GV70 Electrified is a luxury SUV, and you're not going to find many gas-powered luxury SUVs that average 33 mpg. The equivalent GV70 combustion w/ 300hp engine gets 22/28, whereas the 375hp engine is 18/24. And the 375hp engine is a full 1.6 seconds slower 0-60 time than the electric. So assume you're getting a combined 20 mpg, that GV70 3.5T in SoCal with $4.50/gal gas would be north of 25 cents per mile.
If you're trying to compare costs, you can't compare a luxury SUV in one of the most expensive places in the nation for electricity OR gas to a hypothetical 33 mpg vehicle of an entirely different vehicle class in one a state with below the national average gas price.
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Good points, all of them. What about a GV70 equivalent as a mild hybrid? A Santa Fe hybrid is listed at 36 mpg city, and while it's not as luxurious, it is probably the same size.
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This 1.2 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/?fbclid=IwAR3N4wJK-eO-lIfWiHgU1taZIZli58gV0fmJ_2u6QB5yxzlPhrIo94oCQvk)
this Model S is currently on its fourth battery pack. Four batteries at 1.2 million miles mean that the average pack lasted some 300,000 and counting, which is actually a strong showing in our opinion.
what's the average age of the 4 batteries?
4 years? is the Model S a 2008 model?
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Of course you're comparing an article describing someone based in SoCal with your gas prices. And they stated SoCal energy prices are 28.2 cents/kWh.
everyone has an agenda
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what's the average age of the 4 batteries?
4 years? is the Model S a 2008 model?
Article states it's a 2014 model, and the owner has driven an average of 131,000 miles per year (roughly 10x a "typical" driver). So I think you can throw "age" of batteries out the window, because age is just a proxy for mileage in most cases--but clearly not this one.
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From what I can glean, EV batteries likely need replacement around 10-12 years of normal driving (120,000-150,000 miles). And they are expensive, often more than the value of the car at that age. They do have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty (usually) but the fine print on that could be worth reading.
That's better than a typical lead acid battery in cars, but they are of course a lot cheaper. The other factor is "erosion" in range over time, maybe 3-5% per year. Some of this might improve with simple software advancements.
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From what I can glean, EV batteries likely need replacement around 10-12 years of normal driving (120,000-150,000 miles). And they are expensive, often more than the value of the car at that age. They do have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty (usually) but the fine print on that could be worth reading.
That's better than a typical lead acid battery in cars, but they are of course a lot cheaper. The other factor is "erosion" in range over time, maybe 3-5% per year. Some of this might improve with simple software advancements.
I don't know. The laws of physics are proving pretty harsh for battery manufacturers. There's only so much that software optimization can accomplish when facing off against the fundamental nature of materials.
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I'm thinking very modest increments as mfgers learn better how to recharge these things. It could be a factor. Maybe folks look into how batteries were treated over their lifetime and find a way to make them last a month longer.
It's also interesting I think to use the old batteries as stationary storage batteries. OK, so they lost over half their capacity, fine, they still have a third or more available.
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I don't know. The laws of physics are proving pretty harsh for battery manufacturers. There's only so much that software optimization can accomplish when facing off against the fundamental nature of materials.
My understanding is that the "software advancements" are largely low-hanging fruit that Tesla (and Nissan) learned the hard way largely regarding things like thermal management during charging / etc. I know Tesla's software allows you to plan out Supercharger visits on a route, and as you're approaching the charger will be readying the battery for optimal charging--I don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure it's easily google-able...
I would also suspect that there are things you can do re: charging rates. I.e. if I set an alarm for the morning on my cellphone, it now reduces the charging rate to hit 100% just before the time of the alarm. I would think that Tesla's charging software might be sophisticated enough that if you get home at 5 PM and you need 100 miles of charge to get back to 80% battery, it might not just charge the batteries as fast as possible (which would only take a few hours), but deliberately slow the charging rate so you get those 100 miles by the next morning to increase battery life.
Both of those would be software optimizations that would improve battery life. And IMHO they should be "table stakes" in the EV industry at this point, but I don't necessarily know if they are--the first one particularly for other manufacturers that don't have a captive charging network like Tesla.
And part of it is learning. If you regularly deplete to near-zero and then charge to 100% (as one would do with a fuel tank in an ICEV), you'll reduce battery life. If you regularly don't let it drop below 20% and only charge to 80%, it increases battery life.
Either way, the Tesla from the article was averaging 300,000 miles per battery pack, which for a typical driver would be >20 years of driving.
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Charging 20% to 80% would help, but then what is the advantage of ever going to 100%? If the EV has 300 miles of range, now it's only 240. Maybe before a road trip you max it out? Could work.
I'm still hung up on the price of charging it at a commercial site. They must run 60 cents per kWhr or so in California.
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My understanding is that the "software advancements" are largely low-hanging fruit that Tesla (and Nissan) learned the hard way largely regarding things like thermal management during charging / etc. I know Tesla's software allows you to plan out Supercharger visits on a route, and as you're approaching the charger will be readying the battery for optimal charging--I don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure it's easily google-able...
I would also suspect that there are things you can do re: charging rates. I.e. if I set an alarm for the morning on my cellphone, it now reduces the charging rate to hit 100% just before the time of the alarm. I would think that Tesla's charging software might be sophisticated enough that if you get home at 5 PM and you need 100 miles of charge to get back to 80% battery, it might not just charge the batteries as fast as possible (which would only take a few hours), but deliberately slow the charging rate so you get those 100 miles by the next morning to increase battery life.
Both of those would be software optimizations that would improve battery life. And IMHO they should be "table stakes" in the EV industry at this point, but I don't necessarily know if they are--the first one particularly for other manufacturers that don't have a captive charging network like Tesla.
And part of it is learning. If you regularly deplete to near-zero and then charge to 100% (as one would do with a fuel tank in an ICEV), you'll reduce battery life. If you regularly don't let it drop below 20% and only charge to 80%, it increases battery life.
Either way, the Tesla from the article was averaging 300,000 miles per battery pack, which for a typical driver would be >20 years of driving.
Well yeah, I'm assuming we're already including these types of known optimizations in our current estimates of battery life. None of this is new stuff, much of it applied to recharge on other versions of rechargeable batteries long before EVs were part of the discussion.
What I'm saying is, I believe we're already near the limits of what software optimization can achieve. We're likely over halfway there, which means any further improvements are only going to be incremental and not likely to change the calculations all that much.
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Charging 20% to 80% would help, but then what is the advantage of ever going to 100%? If the EV has 300 miles of range, now it's only 240. Maybe before a road trip you max it out? Could work.
I'm still hung up on the price of charging it at a commercial site. They must run 60 cents per kWhr or so in California.
Yeah, most people only charge to 100% before a road trip or before a day they know they might approach a 240+ number.
Heck, the way EV charging works, even on a road trip you only take it to 80% because the charge rate slows down significantly above that. I think you can go something like 20-80% in 20-30 minutes on a Supercharger, but the additional 20% to hit 100% would take almost another half hour on top of it.
I can't find solid numbers on public charger rates in CA. I suspect b/c there's a bunch of different locations, different owners/operators (non-Tesla), on top of different charge capabilities. Via Quora (https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-use-a-public-electric-vehicle-EV-charging-station-in-California/answer/Mark-Wilson-3114), I see numbers for DC fast chargers in the realm of 0.30-0.60 $/kWh, but numbers for slower Level 2 chargers in the realm of 0.10-0.35 $/kWh (which seems low quite frankly).
In many ways it depends what you need. If you REQUIRE fast charging, it looks like it's going to cost. But we have L2 chargers in the parking structure at my office, and if you're getting to the office and just need a couple hours of slower charging while you work, it sounds much more reasonable. But I have a lot of trouble believing the lower ends of either of those rates are anything other than unicorns...
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Yeah, most people only charge to 100% before a road trip or before a day they know they might approach a 240+ number.
Heck, the way EV charging works, even on a road trip you only take it to 80% because the charge rate slows down significantly above that. I think you can go something like 20-80% in 20-30 minutes on a Supercharger, but the additional 20% to hit 100% would take almost another half hour on top of it.
I can't find solid numbers on public charger rates in CA. I suspect b/c there's a bunch of different locations, different owners/operators (non-Tesla), on top of different charge capabilities. Via Quora (https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-use-a-public-electric-vehicle-EV-charging-station-in-California/answer/Mark-Wilson-3114), I see numbers for DC fast chargers in the realm of 0.30-0.60 $/kWh, but numbers for slower Level 2 chargers in the realm of 0.10-0.35 $/kWh (which seems low quite frankly).
In many ways it depends what you need. If you REQUIRE fast charging, it looks like it's going to cost. But we have L2 chargers in the parking structure at my office, and if you're getting to the office and just need a couple hours of slower charging while you work, it sounds much more reasonable. But I have a lot of trouble believing the lower ends of either of those rates are anything other than unicorns...
Right, so the ideal use cases remain the same. Very good for urban drivers/suburban commuters or anyone else averaging under 100 miles per day and always returning to the same fixed point.
Less ideal for roadtrippers.
Impractical for roadtrippers who are towing heavy objects (and potentially always will be).
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Maybe ~30 cents is a "typical" rate at a commercial unit? The figure used below is highly optimistic. If we use the Tesla figure and $0.30, the cost would be $7.20 per hundred miles, using a commercial charger at that probably lowish rate. That's obviously better than my 33 mpg Hyundai at $3/gallon ($9, which is not markedly worse).
Charging at home in CA at 28 cents is roughly the same but gasoline is probably 50% more expensive there as well. I keep coming up with various figures that don't show a marked lower cost of operation for an EV, unless we charge at home here at 15 cents or so.
If I could charge at home at 15 cents, 100 miles in a Tesla would be $3.60 which starts to be decent. I keep going back to this because I see all sorts of calculations like the one below showing a marked advantage but they nearly all speak to charging at home (which might be most of the charging).
What is kWh per 100 Miles? (jdpower.com) (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-is-kwh-per-100-miles)
Once a kWh/100 miles rating is known, a shopper can quickly calculate the cost to operate the vehicle by multiplying this figure by the price of electricity per kWh.
For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2021/tesla-motors/model-3) with a standard-range battery has a rating of 24 kWh/100 miles, while a Ford Mustang Mach-E with a standard-range battery has a rating of 34 kWh/100 miles.
If the national average price of residential electricity costs 13.29 cents per kWh*, then the cost of charging the Tesla (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/tesla-motors) would be 24 kWh times 13.29 cents, which equals $3.19. The Ford (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ford), at 34 kWh, costs $4.52. That means driving the Model 3 a distance of 100 miles costs $1.33 less than driving a Mustang Mach-E the same distance.
Furthermore, in this scenario, the annual cost of electricity to drive a Tesla Model 3 for 12,000 miles would be a thrifty $382.80 ($3.19 times 12,000 divided by 100). The Ford Mustang Mach-E (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-test-drive?make=ford&model=mustang-mach-e) would run you $542.40 for the year. That's an annual cost difference of $159.60.
However, keep in mind that the cost of electricity can vary significantly based on the time of day and where you are charging a vehicle.
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Well yeah, I'm assuming we're already including these types of known optimizations in our current estimates of battery life.
I'm assuming that "some" people's estimates of battery life are going to be as brutally low as humanly possible to fit an agenda, and that those people will not assume anything they don't have to.
And of course you have the people on the other side who will make the most rosy assumptions they possibly can to make EVs seem like a panacea that will solve everything. Including Musk who says 300-500K, but you all know how much I believe anything that man says.
IMHO we won't "know" until we have a lot more EVs on the road for a lot longer time. Tesla's got the big lead regarding vehicles on the road as well as having vehicles available for longer than most other manufacturers. I suspect we'll have a lot more real world understanding based on the time I'm next in the vehicle market. That's no sooner than 2027 unless my Flex has an issue too expensive to repair or an event (crash/theft/etc) which requires replacement.
Even though I never plan to own a Tesla, if I were buying an EV today that would be the one I'd be most comfortable with, because they're farthest along the learning curve. By 2027 I hope that others are far enough that I have comfort with them, or else my next car will definitely be another ICEV.
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Right, so the ideal use cases remain the same. Very good for urban drivers/suburban commuters or anyone else averaging under 100 miles per day and always returning to the same fixed point.
Less ideal for roadtrippers.
Impractical for roadtrippers who are towing heavy objects (and potentially always will be).
With today's capabilities, that's exactly right.
I'm an occasional roadtripper, but not often enough that it would dissuade me from an EV if it fit everything else I needed it to do. I'm getting older and I'm more likely to appreciate a 20-30 minute stop every 3.5-4 hours these days on the road.
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If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles. The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.
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If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles. The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.
Ford now makes a hyrbid F150 with max towing capacity. If I still need a truck with heavy towing capability when I'm back in the market for another vehicle, I'll look into that. I've had my current truck since 2018 so realistically won't be looking again until 2030, I tend to keep my vehicles for at least 12 years.
Of course it's also possible or even likely, that once the kids are out of high school in 5 years, I'll be looking to downsize the RV trailer or even make the move to a diesel pusher motorhome. In which case I'd have no need of the pickup and might look at a passenger car again, rather than a truck or SUV, for the first time since 1994.
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I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be. You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.
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I know my driving behavior today would easily be handled by a BEV. And that once the kids start moving out of the house, it'll be even more so.
But that's also the problem. Unless I start driving a lot more, the payback period in fuel/energy savings of the higher BEV acquisition cost will be even longer. And it's more likely that the kids being out of the house will lead to LESS driving. In fact, starting this summer when my oldest gets his license, it will likely take a LOT of pressure off me for transferring the kids to/from their mom and driving them to / picking them up from school. At least for two years until he graduates, but then my daughter will be getting closer to driving as well. It'll probably be another 2 years and then I'll have little to no "kid transportation" responsibilities.
The one who would probably benefit the most would be my wife. But she doesn't want an EV, because Gavin Newsom told her everyone's supposed to have one and she hates being told what to do :57:
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I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be. You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.
Small cars of any kind are commonly and easily used as "toads" behind a moho. You could likely use the towing to generate electricity to charge the battery. You would of course want software and hardware failsafes to prevent over-charging.
People tend to tow whatever kind of vehicle is most useful at their final destinations. For older retired folks, who are parking in urban or suburban RV parks, it's generally a small car or SUV to get around town.
For the adventurous back-country camping types, it's usually a Jeep or some other suitable offroad vehicle, to get them further into the back-country after they've established the motorhome as their base camp. So your "toad" vehicle is entirely dependent on your lifestyle or reason for camping in the motorhome.
But there's no reason a small or even medium-sized EV wouldn't work in many situations. Large motorhomes tend to have a large towing capacity.
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I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission. I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow. Or not.
What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-cars-can-be-flat-towed-behind-an-rv.html#:~:text=EVs can't be flat-towed)
EVs can't be flat-towed either
With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.
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I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission. I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow. Or not.
What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-cars-can-be-flat-towed-behind-an-rv.html#:~:text=EVs can't be flat-towed)
EVs can't be flat-towed either
With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.
Yes, you can only tow a vehicle that can be put completely into neutral. I've seen plenty of pictures of toad vehicles that were destroyed because their owner failed to do so.
As far as EVs currently, I assume they just haven't decided the use case of flat towing behind a moho is important enough to address.
If they ever did so, then there's no reason you wouldn't be able to decouple the wheels from the motors, or even design the wheels to generate electricity through the motors while being towed. It would take additional development and additional components, which I suppose could force the price high enough to make it an undesirable solution financially, but technologically there's no reason it couldn't be addressed.
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The lack of manual transmission vehicles, plus an increase in the number of vehicles with continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) and front-wheel-drive and full- and part-time four-wheel-drive systems, have thinned the list to its lowest point in years. Vehicles with a CVT cannot be towed with all four wheels on the ground because it would damage the transmission.
Toyota, for instance, makes several vehicles that would seem ideal for flat towing. For hearty off-road adventurers, there are the 4Runner and the FJ Cruiser, the latter still popular although it's no longer in production. And while they're fine on their own on rough terrain, the company's four-wheel-drive trucks don't make the grade when it comes to flat towing. In fact, no automatic transmission vehicle from Toyota, Lexus or the discontinued Scion brand is suitable for dinghy towing.
It all has to do with transmission lubrication, according to Toyota. Some Toyota vehicles require continuous operation of a pump inside the transmission to keep the moving parts lubricated, and those cars can't be towed four-down. With automatic transmissions and pump-dependent manuals, the output shaft isn't being lubricated unless the vehicle's engine is running, and a car can suffer severe transmission damage if it is towed with the driven wheels rolling along the highway, turning the driveshaft or, in the case of front-wheel-drive cars, the half shafts.
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I seem my Hyundai Tuscon is not supposed to be flat towed. I suspect most AWD vehicles would have issues.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM0noe57k7U
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That looks complicated to me, unduly so, but probably not many tow an F-150. I see folks towing CR Vs fairly often and think it might be ruining their AWD.
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car? - Road & Track (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44899834/costs-to-charge-electric-vehicle/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2eoaROQstn31EAV1sfsBjmh8oBu3fyGsL6Ga7KuiKKSV-FhqLOa4Fbe8M)
A good bit of detail.
Similar to L2 chargers, public fast-charging networks tend to have different pricing structures. The high infrastructure cost makes free fast-charging largely a thing of the past unless in an ad-supported model, but between monthly memberships, billing-per-minute, and ToU rates, many models are being tested. In the NYC metro area at the time of writing, you might see the following approximate pricing for the major players:
BP Pulse: $0.49/kWh + $3/hr or $0.35/kWh
Electrify America: $0.48/kWh or $0.36/kWh + $4 monthly membership
EVgo: $0.23–$0.42/kWh or $0.99/session + $0.43/kWh overnight, $0.56/kWh off-peak, $0.69/kWh on-peak
EvolveNY: $0.35/kWh
Revel: $0.49/kWh
Tesla: $0.28–$0.36/kWh
You need around 30 kWhrs to go 100 miles, so that compares with about 3 gallons for a reasonably efficient ICE. If you have a plug in, charging at home is a must most of the time to save money.
The reality is that, as of right now, few people rely exclusively on public DCFC chargers. Most people do the majority of their charging at home (https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/78540.pdf), and those who do not tend to find L2 chargers elsewhere—either at work, a monthly parking garage, or increasingly at the curbside. This means that for many, the true average cost of charging an EV is closer to the $0.15/kWh that homeowners pay (per 2022 national-average pricing) than it is to the $0.50/kWh common at public fast-chargers.
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That looks complicated to me, unduly so, but probably not many tow an F-150. I see folks towing CR Vs fairly often and think it might be ruining their AWD.
It takes a minute or so, not sure how "unduly complicated" that is, to completely disengage all wheels from the transmission.
As you're pointing out right now, many vehicles can't be flat-towed at all, so having the ability to do so for the best-selling vehicle in the USA seems like a pretty big deal to me.
The info I looked up on the interwebz seems to indicate that the Honda CRV 2014 and older models can be flat-towed but that models 2015 and newer can not be.
I don't really see a lot of Hondas being used as "toads" down here in Texico. Probably >50% of dinghy-towed vehicles I see, are Jeep Wranglers.
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I likely notice the CRVs because I was in the market for one for a while (and owned one way back, it was a manual).
"Unduly complicated" to me is about anything requiring a sequence of more than 3 steps. I'm lazy.
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I'm lazy.
Then you'd probably not like RV life anyway. :57:
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As you're pointing out right now, many vehicles can't be flat-towed at all, so having the ability to do so for the best-selling vehicle in the USA seems like a pretty big deal to me.
what percentage of sales might they lose to make it a pretty big deal?
I'd guess less than 1% of buyers of F150's ever tow them
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what percentage of sales might they lose to make it a pretty big deal?
I'd guess less than 1% of buyers of F150's ever tow them
No idea.
It's not uncommon though, to see an F150 towed behind a motorhome, around here. If Jeep Wranglers are maybe 55% of what I see, F150s are maybe 10%?
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In 2023, more than 700,000 customers chose a new Ford F-Series truck
I suppose 7,000 of those sold in 23 could be towed once in a while - mostly in Texas
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In 2023, more than 700,000 customers chose a new Ford F-Series truck
I suppose 7,000 of those sold in 23 could be towed once in a while - mostly in Texas
I'm not trying to say 10% of F150s are towed behind motorhomes. I'm saying I'd guess about 10% of the vehicles I see towed behind motorhomes, are F150s.
Regardless it's an interesting option to have for a truck. The vast majority of people that own 4x4 vehicles don't ever use that capability, but it's clearly an option they value having, otherwise they'd just buy the 2WD versions of those vehicles.
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Many of the light trucks I see have no appearance of ever being used as a truck, much less a 4x4.. I suspect most could get by just fine with a smaller SUV or station wagon or minivan.
Trucks of course are manly.
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Many of the light trucks I see have no appearance of ever being used as a truck, much less a 4x4.. I suspect most could get by just fine with a smaller SUV or station wagon or minivan.
Trucks of course are manly.
I miss my truck. I know it was only a Ford Ranger, but having a truck around to haul crap that you don't want inside your car cabin is a really useful thing, even if you don't make use of it for that all that often. When I sold it it had >100K on it and I only got $2700 for it, and for years after that I thought to myself "maybe I should have just kept it--yeah it'll have to be registered and insured, but when I need it for truck stuff, it'll sure come in handy..."
A few years down the road when it's time for the Flex to be replaced, don't be shocked if I end up with an F-150 Lightning (or similar). It's not that I do "truck stuff" very often (and I'll keep the Jeep for 4x4 type fun), but it's nice to have the option.
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I used to borrow my neighbors S-10 when I needed one for mulch or whatever. After he moved, I rented a truck from Mennards a few times for $20. When I had a minivan, I could pretty much tote anything I needed except loose mulch/top soil. Minivans are marvelous(ly boring).
Anyway, I've learned some things here about EVs, like how plugging into two outlets won't help.
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I took this last week near Houston.
New chargers installed at Shell gas station.
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Dang. It tilted it.
I edited the picture to rotate, it still flipped it.
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I took this last week near Houston.
New chargers installed at Shell gas station.
I'd put a couple at the hotel
or tourist attractions
places where folks are going to spend more than a few minutes
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Ford's EV sales were up 80% vs same month last year. What did I say about those "EV sales are in the dumps" headlines? Demand and production cuts have more to do with pricing than customer interest. The strong sales were, you guessed it, thanks to Ford leveling out the prices on their EVs (somewhat). Still, Ford's massive prices increases on Lightning vs when it was launched is the main reason the production plans have been scaled back.
Now, let's put that good news in perspective. Ford shifted just 6,368 Mach Es and Lightnings combined [somewhat sad trombone]. That's somewhere around 45,000 units less than Tesla sells a month, but it is progress.
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2024 Ford E-Transit Electric Van Delivers More Range, Faster Charging (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-ford-e-transit-electric-cargo-van-first-look-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2HpUFazvOlDUqO1Ms0QITazZarPylLOM3kewOW9JV2mqOWD0UfTX5GR-k)
I can see this as working for urban delivery companies who charge "at home". I don't know how far they typically drive in a day. $53 K and up is a sticking point.
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Electric cars release more particulate pollution.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-cars-emit-more-soot-california-ban-gas-powered-vehicles-521b29e3?st=8u4upi6vxr70q5a&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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Been seeing a lot of those Amazon vans (electric vans) lately. Like everyday. I think they're made by Rivian. They look cool for a delivery van.
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The particulate item is probably correct from what I can tell, but it's not due to brakes. An EV will rarely use friction brakes. Our hybrid is the same, anything other than hard braking uses the regen function. Tire wear does appear to be greater. So, you would experience higher particulate pollution per vehicle, I think, but CO2 emissions are lower.
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Goldman: The bear market for battery metals prices is far from over (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/05/goldman-the-bear-market-for-battery-metals-prices-is-far-from-over.html)
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The particulate item is probably correct from what I can tell, but it's not due to brakes. An EV will rarely use friction brakes. Our hybrid is the same, anything other than hard braking uses the regen function. Tire wear does appear to be greater. So, you would experience higher particulate pollution per vehicle, I think, but CO2 emissions are lower.
How about the emissions that go into making an EV?
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I read various "analyses" on this question, most claim a CO2 "payback" around 20,000 miles depending on this and that, even if the electricity comes from coal (it's longer for coal). I'm not saying these analyses are correct. The EV does produce less CO2 off our power grid than a car.
As noted, your monetary savings is ONLY if you charge at home most of the time.
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Finally saw a CyberTruck out there in the wild yesterday!
Holy crap, that thing is even uglier in person than in pictures!
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worse than a Mustang???
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worse than a Mustang???
Worse than anything.
I mean, in the running for "worst looking car/truck ever made".
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Worse than anything.
I mean, in the running for "worst looking car/truck ever made".
$300K for the ugliest ever.
(https://i.imgur.com/IDwGCoM.png)
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$300K for the ugliest ever.
(https://i.imgur.com/IDwGCoM.png)
Yep. Hideous. And as I mentioned, even uglier in person. Which is know is nearly incomprehensible when you see how ugly it is in pictures.
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I've seen a couple around town in the past few weeks. They're truly hideous.
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Email from Hertz.
Nobody even wants to rent this crap.
Seems like can't even sell the inventory they are trying to unload.
(https://i.imgur.com/uFDCSR6.png)
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I noticed a few Teslas in Seoul and saw one "dealership" location. I saw more of the Hyundai Ioniq EVs, but not many. The tour buses were Diesels with manual transmissions. Gasoline was around $4 per gallon. The most popular type was a Hyundai sedan, they don't have as many SUVs, but I saw plenty of Tucsons, not as many as here.
I saw one Cadillac, three Chevys, quite a few Mercedes and BMWs, but of course they weren't common.
Traffic in the evening was ... very trafficky.
Right hand drive in Korea, left in Japan of course. In Japan, most cars looked like small boxes on wheels.
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many windmills?
solar panels?
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I saw a FEW of each in Korea, I don't recall any in Japan, but I know they have some. I don't think either country relies much on S&W. Korea had some very large wind turbines that were not moving, they looked brand newish.
I meant to mention, the haze in Seoul was significant. Visibility on a "clear" day was minimal, maybe 5 miles or so, much much less than here. I don't know how much is natural vs manmade. Japan was also hazy, but not as bad. Seoul had MUCH worse traffic congestion than did Tokyo.
What is the main source of electricity in South Korea?
coal
Electricity generation in Korea is heavily dependent on coal, which represents over 40% of total generation. The vast majority of the remaining electricity generation derives from natural gas and nuclear energy, in roughly equal shares.
Electricity generation by type in South Korea 2022 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/884559/south-korea-electricity-generation-by-energy-source/)
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(https://i.imgur.com/LkdFEfn.png)
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stupid nuclear disasters
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Email from Hertz.
Nobody even wants to rent this crap.
Seems like can't even sell the inventory they are trying to unload.
(https://i.imgur.com/uFDCSR6.png)
You all know I'm interested in EVs. One aspect of that is that I'd actually like to get real-world experience with an EV without having to buy one and risk not liking it. It would seem to make sense that EV rentals would be ideal for someone like me...
...but you know what I don't want to do? Spend my vacation trying to figure out an EV rental car, where I'm going to charge it, what app(s) I need to charge, setting up accounts with my credit card for those apps, how long it's going to take, etc etc etc. Vacation is for relaxation and fun, not stressing about a vehicle that fuels differently from what I'm used to.
Renting a car is the specific time that I want easy and known. I have enough other things going through my mind when traveling.
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You all know I'm interested in EVs. One aspect of that is that I'd actually like to get real-world experience with an EV without having to buy one and risk not liking it. It would seem to make sense that EV rentals would be ideal for someone like me...
...but you know what I don't want to do? Spend my vacation trying to figure out an EV rental car, where I'm going to charge it, what app(s) I need to charge, setting up accounts with my credit card for those apps, how long it's going to take, etc etc etc. Vacation is for relaxation and fun, not stressing about a vehicle that fuels differently from what I'm used to.
Renting a car is the specific time that I want easy and known. I have enough other things going through my mind when traveling.
If you needed to put a car in the shop for a bit, that might be a good time to experiment.
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A thing I note on SM rather constantly is extreme views about such things, e.g., eiither EVs are great and terrific, or EVs are some scandalous notion that can never work out. At least here we've mostly had a decent pro/con discussion, which I find about most things gets more involved than many want to hear about.
The COVID vaccine is the same, either if you get one, it will kill you, OR if you don't, it will kill you, little balance at all. And it aligns with if Trump is elected, it'll be the death of the US, and if he isn't ...
I realize folks somewhat "in the middle" are a lot less vocal about issues on SM by and large.
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like driving a ford or a chevy
good or bad
no middle ground
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I think most Ford devotees would agree Chevys are at least "OK" cars. The extremity to which some go on about EVs is far in excess of that in my experience.
When I was younger, some would say "Oh, I once owned a Ford and it was crap, broke down daily." which was also of course hyperbole, but maybe they had a bad experience with a Ford, while others did OK with them, or found Chevys just as likely to break down. Cars back then took a lot of maintenance and would break down more often than a modern car, fortunately.
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Toyota is on the brink of being able to produce solid-state batteries for electric vehicles (EVs) as quickly as conventional batteries, with mass production potentially starting around 2027 or 2028.
This progress stems from a breakthrough by Toyota that might halve the cost and size of these batteries. If this initiative succeeds, solid-state batteries could potentially double the range of EVs to around 1,200 km and cut charging times to 10 minutes or less.
Furthermore, Toyota has joined forces with Idemitsu, a leading Japanese oil company, to work together on technology aimed at mass-producing solid-state batteries.
Maybe so...
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breakthrough
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If you needed to put a car in the shop for a bit, that might be a good time to experiment.
True. Although with the Jeep I've got an extra one available. But yeah, if I had an issue where it was an insurance company sort of thing (like when I got rear-ended) I could always try that.
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Feds Tighten Emissions Rules, Making Life Tougher for Gas Vehicles (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60255477/new-federal-emissions-rules-aiming-for-more-evs/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR39B7SzHtEDfTI1A1dFLWy7vfqeLKI5fA8oc8N__f2dP7ju3nwJBpxPbBE)
The EPA said the new pollution rules will reduce cumulative carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by 7.2 billion metric tons by 2055.
FYI, that reduction over the next 32 yeats cumulatively is about one years worth (a bit more). And this would only be true if all that actually happens. Ergo, this would be a pretty modest step. As I keep saying, there is no plan out there because any analysis on any plan would show how ludicrously inadequate and expensive the plan would be. And by 2050, half the vehicles on the road would still be ICE types.
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Meanwhile, there are still around:
2023 BMW M2 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0: Do We Really Have to Choose? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-bmw-m2-vs-porsche-718-cayman-gts-40-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3LK0q-t4KEOwMkHgR8eaRHDWHWgji83HXHkqthAXT6fA6mO-jH7tiAGFs)
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there is a sporty car thread buried somewhere
I'd pick the Porsche mostly because of the looks
the M2 price is perhaps less $$ than my chevy
they are both the right color
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Those are both nice-looking, way better than the average EV.
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Meanwhile, there are still around:
2023 BMW M2 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0: Do We Really Have to Choose? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-bmw-m2-vs-porsche-718-cayman-gts-40-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3LK0q-t4KEOwMkHgR8eaRHDWHWgji83HXHkqthAXT6fA6mO-jH7tiAGFs)
BMW wins out here:
(https://i.imgur.com/PgZ6XeH.png)
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Not as good looking as the Cybertruck obviously.
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Not as good looking as the Cybertruck obviously.
(https://i.imgur.com/TQWISu0.png)
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Tesla Cybertruck, Rivian, Chevy Silverado EV, Ford Lightning: Coast-To-Coast Comparison (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/reviews/713580/tesla-rivian-ford-chevy-road-trip/)
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This small curbside EV charger can deliver 200 miles of range in 13 minutes (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/curbside-ev-charger-can-deliver-200-miles-of-range-13-minutes/?fbclid=IwAR3uxlJFpFvjSx_NwuKRhrr8BKGtkqlteoqOM-bqkjwIJLU2e-iQZ_k4TAU)
Fast DC chargers are great, but they're way more expensive than slow AC chargers. Which means that for the same money you can deploy perhaps 100 AC chargers or 1 DC charger, and it's far from obvious that deploying 1 DC charger is better for EV owners than 100 AC chargers. Imagine if there were an AC charger between every two curbside parking spots, you could park anywhere and charge while you're running errands, or at home overnight, etc.
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Hybrid cars now have 'very few compromises' says Ford executive — and sales are booming - Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/23/hybrid-cars-now-have-very-few-compromises-says-ford-executive-and-sales-are-booming/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwAR0R1JQs8ZRgBA2OPRglpjrSfAtOu-nUCkevWvdFHv75OARAXIqHRt-Jblg)
In all this "rush" to EVs, maybe folks should take a step back and consider this alternative as a worthy and practicable goal. If we lived in a detached house, I'd be interested in a plug in hybrid with say 35 miles of EV range. It would take some calculating to figure effective "mpgs" on that vehicle depending on driving habits. I think, for us, we drive more than 35 miles say once a month, maybe a trip of 400 miles, maybe 1,000. Our current hybrid does about 33 mpg highway, so call it 30 gallons of gas, once a month, and then nearly no gas for the rest of the month.
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(https://i.imgur.com/8U3WapQ.png)
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Italians are smart.
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No tolls in Norway.
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Bad food in Norway.
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Italians are poor.
FTFY...
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Many are, but they get by and don't sleep on the streets among feces and spent needles.
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Many are, but they get by and don't sleep on the streets among feces and spent needles.
And this is relevant to electric vehicles how?
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And your post was?
Most Italians are not poor, FYI.
Most of the poor ones who there who are NOT Italian.
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Italians make great food.
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And your post was?
Most Italians are not poor, FYI.
Most of the poor ones who there who are NOT Italian.
My post was simple: EVs are expensive luxury items, so ownership rate in poorer countries will likely be lower than in richer countries.
Italy has one of the lowest GDP/capita of "Western" Europe--only Spain and Portugal seem to be lower: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=TH%2F-EU&most_recent_value_desc=true
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Yep. OK.
(https://i.imgur.com/0Do8oid.png)
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Yeah, so the three lowest GDP/capita countries in Western Europe have three of the four lowest EV shares of their total auto market.
There are obviously outliers on that list; China and the US. We could debate why those outliers exist. And of course Norway is a HUGE outlier, which is largely government policy--although they can only get away with that policy it because they're a rich country.
But within Europe, there seems to be a pretty strong correlation there between GDP/capita and EV share of their auto market.
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Choices.
Again - Italians are not poor. Other residents of that country are poor. Same goes for Spain and Portugal. Open borders to refugees and your GDP/Capita is gonna go down. Very simple.
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Choices.
Again - Italians are not poor. Other residents of that country are poor. Same goes for Spain and Portugal. Open borders to refugees and your GDP/Capita is gonna go down. Very simple.
They're not a rich country by Euro standard. But sure. Let's exclude the "rich" and the "poor" Italians by not focusing on GDP/Capita. Let's look at their middle classes.
https://www.cesifo.org/en/publications/2023/article-journal/income-and-tax-burden-middle-class-europe
(https://i.imgur.com/H5Z6hSE.png)
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It would be interesting to see in the US the income breakdown of folks with EVs versus rep. As expected ...
According to a study published in the Energy Research Social Science Journal, the majority of EV owners are white, own a home, have multiple vehicles, and have a higher income compared to the general population. About 60% of EV owners have an annual income of more than $100,000, while only 20% have an annual income of less than $50,000.
This disparity in EV ownership can be attributed to a number of factors. EVs are generally more expensive than gas-powered vehicles, which can make them less affordable for low-income individuals and families. Additionally, many low-income individuals and families may not have access to the type of financing that is needed to purchase an EV.
Another reason for the disparity in EV ownership is access to charging stations. Many low-income individuals and families may not have access to a charging station at home, which can make it difficult to charge an EV.
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I can't afford one
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I can't afford one
Well not any more, after buying that other car :57:
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(https://i.imgur.com/2aL3Wsh.png)
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Bad food in Norway.
bad food in the Netherlands, UK, Germany, and Sweden as well imo.
Italy, France, and Spain on the other hand, phenomenal food.
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We found some pretty good food in Sweden and Copenhagen. A couple places were borderline excellent I thought, may places were just solid and interesting.
Copenhagen has one French bistro type place that was excellent, we had lunch there often, but it was run by Frenchmen, so that hardly counts.
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FTFY...
Lol what? Italy is not some poor country in Africa or the Caribbean. Yeah they aren't as rich as their EU neighbors to the north France or Germany or as the UK, but it's still a highly developed first world nation with one of the 10 largest economies in the world in terms of GDP. Oh and it's also in my opinion maybe the most freaking beautiful country in the world to visit with incredible food.
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We found some pretty good food in Sweden and Copenhagen. A couple places were borderline excellent I thought, may places were just solid and interesting.
Copenhagen has one French bistro type place that was excellent, we had lunch there often, but it was run by Frenchmen, so that hardly counts.
well yeah, I'm sure they all have great restaurants here or there- even in the UK- and I believe the highest rated restaurant in the world is a 3* Michelin in Norway.
But on the whole, on average, food kinda sucks in those places. And their cultures own food culture- kinda sucks. Found that most little mom and pop places in Oslo didn't even serve Norwegian food- lot of Turkish places. This was probably like 10 years ago, so might've changed I don't know.
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And this is relevant to electric vehicles how?
Idk? Lot of the shitlibs who once worshipped Elon Musk that now hate Elon Musk in shit-hole California drive his EV's?
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Italians make great food.
And art. And wine. And gangs. The mafia, c'mon who can top that? And empires. RIP Roman Empire. Oh and cars. Holy sh*t have you seen the newer Pagani's? Most beautiful cars in the world if you ask me and it's not even remotely close.
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bad food in the Netherlands, UK, Germany, and Sweden as well imo.
Italy, France, and Spain on the other hand, phenomenal food.
We had good meals in Amsterdam. Granted, the places we went to were French and Steakhouses. We did have some awesome seafood there too, in Volendam.
I have to get to Germany. Munich in particular. I love German food. Sauerbraten is my favorite meal. I make it often.
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My post was simple: EVs are expensive luxury items, so ownership rate in poorer countries will likely be lower than in richer countries.
have a feeling like once China starts flooding the US/EU market with their EVs in 2025 or 2026 prices on EVs will start coming down.
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I think one poster here is considering an EV purchase (in CA). He can charge at home which helps immensely, and gas is not cheap out there (nor is electricity). I know "we" are hardly typical, but I'd guess "we" comprise a somewhat higher than mean income level. One out of 30 or so isn't a good figure, I think.
Might I be interested in say 2035? That depends on a lot of factors of course, but my gasoline expenses with the hybrid are really not very high as we don't drive much in a year, maybe 6,000 miles. That would be less than 200 gallons, which around here is about $600.
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Imagine an EV was exactly the same cost as an ICEV today, with the same features and attributes. Would you buy one? I would not.
I can't charge at home, end of story.
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We had good meals in Amsterdam. Granted, the places we went to were French and Steakhouses. We did have some awesome seafood there too, in Volendam.
I have to get to Germany. Munich in particular. I love German food. Sauerbraten is my favorite meal. I make it often.
yeah, that's kind my point- you go to those countries and you're eating French food or Turkish food lol.
I've been to Germany only twice, but was not a fan of the food at all. It's all bland, meat and sausages and potatoes.
Just hard to really enjoy the Northern Europeans shitty food when you've eaten all around Italy, France, and Spain.
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yeah, that's kind my point- you go to those countries and you're eating French food or Turkish food lol.
I've been to Germany only twice, but was not a fan of the food at all. It's all bland, meat and sausages and potatoes.
Just hard to really enjoy the Northern Europeans shitty food when you've eaten all around Italy, France, and Spain.
Where in Germany?
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I think one poster here is considering an EV purchase (in CA). He can charge at home which helps immensely, and gas is not cheap out there (nor is electricity). I know "we" are hardly typical, but I'd guess "we" comprise a somewhat higher than mean income level. One out of 30 or so isn't a good figure, I think.
Might I be interested in say 2035? That depends on a lot of factors of course, but my gasoline expenses with the hybrid are really not very high as we don't drive much in a year, maybe 6,000 miles. That would be less than 200 gallons, which around here is about $600.
I can't do the EV thing until they have at least 400-500 mile range- THAT YOU ACTUALLY GET- on a full charge as a baseline standard no questions asked- and until they have the charging infrastructure where there are chargers on every corner like we have gas pumps on every corner now. Oh and until they get the fast charging times from 45 minutes to an hour down to like 10-15 minutes. Otherwise not interested. Ever.
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I'm mostly hung up on the cost to charge an EV away from home. That, to me, is the KEY, more than range or charging times.
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Where in Germany?
this was back in like 2009 and 2011 I want to say, went to Frankfurt, Munich, Cologne, and Bamberg.
One of the craziest things I've ever seen by the way- driving into Frankfurt from the airport I remember they had this giant billboard for an ad for this place which I had to drive past on the way to the hotel- it was a god damn apartment building brothel. Literally like a 10 story apartment building and the entire thing is just a brothel. Craziest shit I've ever seen in my life. The Germans are freaky.
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They make some great cars.
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I'm mostly hung up on the cost to charge an EV away from home. That, to me, is the KEY, more than range or charging times.
I tested out the Porsche EV for a few days, and it cost about $15-18 every time to charge it up from around 30-40% to 90-95%. Doesn't seem like a lot....but it takes 45 minutes to an hr to charge every time- and I had to charge the thing constantly because the range on a full charge is only like 230 miles and you NEVER get anywhere close to that 230 miles.
Comes out to basically the same price as pumping gas because have to charge it so much- and the wait times for the charging is ridiculous. And that's if you're lucky and you get to a charger where no one is already using them all. Then you're waiting twice as long.
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They make some great cars.
that they do. and kitchen cabinets. and beer. and elevators. and trains.
their food sucks ass though. in my opinion.
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I guess M-B is shooting for all-electric by 2030? Not sure about BMW and Porsche.
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I guess M-B is shooting for all-electric by 2030? Not sure about BMW and Porsche.
Various automakers are claiming a similar timeline, Cadillac is as well. I view this as subject to change depending on market forces (duh).
I saw Hyundai was building a huge plant near Savannah to build EVs and is now saying it may build hybrids as well. I think Toyota and Honda are nearer to getting this right.
But as long as charging away from home costs about the same as gasoline, it seems like not a very good equation for me.
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When Every Car Brand Plans to Go Electric | Gear Patrol (https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g38986745/car-brands-going-electric/)
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I guess I'll by my last M-B in 2029.
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have a feeling like once China starts flooding the US/EU market with their EVs in 2025 or 2026 prices on EVs will start coming down.
Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down.
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I guess I'll by my last M-B in 2029.
I have a strong hunch these plans will get changed. Maybe they create some other brand for ICE Vs.
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Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down.
BYD is backed by the Chinese state. They can operate at losses infinitely so long as the state of China subsidizes them.
BYD will try to steal market share by slashing prices and trying to undercut it's competition (which it's already done in China to supplant Tesla as #1 there)- which will just force the competition to match and slash prices in US/EU markets. Will be a little harder for them to do in the US but not impossible considering the tariffs the Trump administration put in place on China (thank god for that)- and will be virtually impossible for them if Trump is elected (fingers crossed) as he has promised to put a 100% tariff on Chinese made in Mexico EVs- but as of now there are no such tariffs in the EU- which at the moment is the larger, more important market to EV makers.
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BYD is backed by the Chinese state. They can operate at losses infinitely so long as the state of China subsidizes them.
BYD will try to steal market share by slashing prices and trying to undercut it's competition (which it's already done in China to supplant Tesla as #1 there)- which will just force the competition to match and slash prices in US/EU markets. Will be a little harder for them to do in the US but not impossible considering the tariffs the Trump administration put in place on China (thank god for that)- and will be virtually impossible for them if Trump is elected (fingers crossed) as he has promised to put a 100% tariff on Chinese made in Mexico EVs- but as of now there are no such tariffs in the EU- which at the moment is the larger, more important market to EV makers.
I dunno... China is heading for an economic reckoning based on making bad decisions "infinitely" eventually having to come home to roost.
But I would ask... Who in America will buy a Chinese BEV? I very well might be the most pro-EV person on this forum, and I wouldn't touch one at any price.
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I dunno... China is heading for an economic reckoning based on making bad decisions "infinitely" eventually having to come home to roost.
But I would ask... Who in America will buy a Chinese BEV? I very well might be the most pro-EV person on this forum, and I wouldn't touch one at any price.
I wouldn't touch any Chinese made EV. But there will be no shortage of Americans buying them if they are very affordable. BYD has slashed prices so low in China that they are selling brand new EV hatchbacks for around $11,500. This is under $12k and will sell a truck load of those in the EU taking a chunk out of EU auto makers asses and US auto makers asses to a lesser degree (we sell cars in EU too, ya know).
(https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/koBooP/s1/byd-seagull---salao-de-xangai.webp)
And then there is this line of BYD EV they want to export to the US within a couple of years....which they will try to price slash and sell below Tesla, GM, Ford's comparable EV models...
(https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2023/12/1%20BYD%20Seal%20review.JPG)
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Nope.
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(https://i.imgur.com/PLxPIeg.jpeg)
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Nope.
yeah, I'm with you. I wouldn't touch em. At all. But if their prices are lower than everyone else, even lower than ICEV....Americans will buy them unfortunately.
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Well I wouldn't fear an $11.5K vehicle in the US with size and specs that make a Nissan Leaf look luxurious:
(https://i.imgur.com/vgLVtQ3.png)
The second one (similar vehicle class to Model 3) appears to be selling in other places (NZ/AUS) slightly below Tesla pricing, but not just dumping for pennies.
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Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down.
And it's also unlikely they'll meet MDot's other stated requirement of a 15-minute full charge, any time soon. We're simply up against the laws of physics here.
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Then there are the various safety requirements in the US, things like crash testing and whatnot.
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Well I wouldn't fear an $11.5K vehicle in the US with size and specs that make a Nissan Leaf look luxurious:
(https://i.imgur.com/vgLVtQ3.png)
The second one (similar vehicle class to Model 3) appears to be selling in other places (NZ/AUS) slightly below Tesla pricing, but not just dumping for pennies.
yeah, I said that little hatchback would kill in the EU market, not here. We sell lot of cars in the EU too, around 20% of all our car exports are to the EU. Would be bad for our car companies, for sure.
That other model would sell probably here, and it was significantly lower than Tesla prices, and only recently slightly below Tesla pricing because Tesla slashed their prices to stay competitive.
Tesla is the #1 EV seller in the world. BYD beat Tesla last quarter of 2023 by over 100k in vehicle sales and were just a couple hundred thousand short of Tesla for the year and will likely outsell them in 2024 and take the crown from Tesla. And BYD is going nowhere. It's backed by the Chinese state and Warren Buffett and his Berkshire Hathaway holding company have invested heavily all the way back in the days when they were only making batteries. Berkshire had owned 10% of the company up until 6 months ago, they have since sold a bunch of shares- but they still own around 4% of the company- which is still a freaking sizable chunk for one investor to hold on a publicly traded company.
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And it's also unlikely they'll meet MDot's other stated requirement of a 15-minute full charge, any time soon. We're simply up against the laws of physics here.
I just don't see how they become widely adopted in this country until they get the charge pumps on every block like we have gas stations on every block- and until they get the charge times down significantly. Americans are an impatient bunch of people- and who the hell has 45 minutes or an hour to wait around to fill their car up constantly when they are on the go?
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If I were a husband working and my wife had an ICE vehicle, I'd consider an EV relatively soon as a "get to work and back" car. That scenario eliminates isses around charging time, charging away from home costs, and range.
The other possibility would be to have two EVs and rent something for trips.
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I'd consider one when the total cost of ownership and operating for a 10 year period was 10% less than a gasser
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I just don't see how they become widely adopted in this country until they get the charge pumps on every block like we have gas stations on every block- and until they get the charge times down significantly. Americans are an impatient bunch of people- and who the hell has 45 minutes or an hour to wait around to fill their car up constantly when they are on the go?
I do think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how EV owners typically operate.
Most will rarely ever visit a public charger. They get home at night, plug in their EV, and when they wake up it's charged and ready to go. Unlike gas cars, they CAN "fuel" it at home so it reduces the number of public chargers we'll eventually need to some fraction of how many gas stations we need. In fact, if you ask many EV owners, it's the LACK of range anxiety that's one of the selling points of an EV--you don't have to think about range / fueling at all unless you know you're going to be driving 200+ miles in a day. And for most Americans, driving that much in a day is a rarity. (If someone is an outlier on the daily mileage, they're probably not a prime EV candidate.)
BTW the other misunderstanding is that most EV drivers won't use a public DC fast charger to get their car up to 100% the way an ICEV driver will "fill" the tank. As we discussed I think WAY upthread one of the fundamental characteristics of battery charging is that going from say 10%->80% full will take as long as going from 80%->100% full, so most will only go to 80% at a DC fast charger--which is usually more in the 20-30 minute range.
Some newer EVs based on an 800V, are even faster. The Kia EV6 can go from 10%->80% in as little as 18 minutes (https://www.kia.com/in/service/ev-owners/charging-infra.html), on a 350kW fast charger.
IMHO the biggest hindrance on adoption will be, as CD mentions, people who can't charge at home. If you have to rely on a public charger for 100% of your charging instead of (for most EV owners) close to 0% of your charging, EVs are a hassle. But that's also why BYD would be less likely to make significant inroads to the US market based on price--as CD also posted above, it's mostly wealthier people who happen to be homeowners buying EVs in this country. They're going to be less price-sensitive and willing to be seen driving a "low cost" Chinese BEV.
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I'd consider one when the total cost of ownership and operating for a 10 year period was 10% less than a gasser
The best case today would be the Nissan Leaf at $30 K, you can probably get a deal on one, but no Federal subsidy. Let's say you charge at home at 15 cents per and drive 10,000 miles a year, mostly around town. An equivalent ICE would cost you probably $22 K, give or take. Over 100,000 miles, it would probably use about 3,000 gallons of gas, let's price it at $4, so $12,000. I'll omit brakes and oil changes for now, tire wear might cost more.
The cost to charge it would be about $4,500 (at home). That's a nope. If you snagged the $7500 subsidy, it works out OK.
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how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
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I figure any car costing about $20 K new is going to be worth about $5000 in ten years, maybe. A Leaf with a weak battery might be worth a grand, maybe.
The Chevy Bolt provided better figures, I think, but it's in between now. A 2017 Chevy Bolt goes for about $17 K, not much mileage yet of course.
The new model Bolt COULD have better overall figures. Maybe.
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how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
Less than zero. You have to dispose it.
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Ten year old Tesla Ss still go for around $20 K.
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how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
Less than zero. You have to dispose it.
You know, you can find such things pretty easily by looking at Autotrader. I did a search for Tesla, 2016 or older, and sorted by highest mileage.
(https://i.imgur.com/h92Gam4.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ocZDGjZ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/loXdpL6.png)
Seems to me that cars with mileage in excess (some well in excess) are still going for pretty decent numbers.
Here are some similar (IMHO) gassers...
(https://i.imgur.com/7srTU5I.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vpLmG8X.png)
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If it needs a new battery in a year, it's worth ZERO.
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If it needs a new battery in a year, it's worth ZERO.
Yeah, and clearly the market has spoken that it is NOT believed that a 10 year old Tesla with >100K miles is going to need a new battery in a year, or they wouldn't be fetching these numbers.
Wouldn't shock me of those Beemers rack up >$5K in unplanned maintenance costs WELL before those Teslas on average.
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Costs me very little to do maintenance on my 10 y/o Benz. Just did the yearly last month.
$185.00.
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Costs me very little to do maintenance on my 10 y/o Benz. Just did the yearly last month.
$185.00.
Some other industry folks think differently re: Mercs... https://caredge.com/mercedes-benz/maintenance
Oddly guess who does pretty well on these metrics? https://caredge.com/tesla/maintenance
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I can only speak to my experience.
Last year I spent $1,200.00 or so. $100/month. No car payment.
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I can only speak to my experience.
Last year I spent $1,200.00 or so. $100/month. No car payment.
Yeah, I'm assuming that other owners had it worse... Like the year (~2004?) where my ex's VW Passat was just past its warranty (~65K miles) and in one year racked up $5K in repair bills.
I'm a little surprised to see how strongly Tesla ranks, but that site otherwise followed what I expected... Japanese brands leading the pack, American and non-Japanese Asian brands behind them, and Euros picking up the rear.
But it goes to show you how much anecdotal info (and media amplification of it) can skew the narrative. You've had good luck with Mercedes despite them being very poorly ranked for maintenance costs, so you're an MB fan. And a few scare stories about people having to pay enormous battery replacement costs--amplified by the anti-EV forces within media--skew you to believe that will be the norm.
The data doesn't seem to back it up, though.
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I do think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how EV owners typically operate.
Most will rarely ever visit a public charger. They get home at night, plug in their EV, and when they wake up it's charged and ready to go. Unlike gas cars, they CAN "fuel" it at home so it reduces the number of public chargers we'll eventually need to some fraction of how many gas stations we need.
I think we need to be careful about painting with a broad brush here. Because I believe there's a fairly large segment of the total potential EV market, that consists of urban apartment/condo dwellers who would otherwise be inclined to buy an EV, but can't because their apartment/condo parking situations don't provide for home overnight charging.
Your comments work for suburban home owners, but they aren't appropriate for those in urban situations that don't provide adequate infrastructure. Cincy has already commented that this is HIS situation, and he's far from alone.
For various reasons I think that the urbanist condo/apartment dweller and the potential EV driver have quite a bit of philosophical overlap, and yet this potential target segment must be removed from the calculations of total available market for EV purchasers.
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We are a one-car family and we put about 6-7K miles per year on the car.
An EV makes zero sense to us (except our golf cart, with which the battery is already starting to fail after 3+ years).
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I had a friend who bought three Saabs in a row, insisted they were good cars despite them spending massive amounts of time at the mechanic's shop. Then he bought a VW Passat that was still a POS but spent slightly less time in the shop than his Saabs, so he insisted it was a good car.
Just sayin'.
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I think we need to be careful about painting with a broad brush here. Because I believe there's a fairly large segment of the total potential EV market, that consists of urban apartment/condo dwellers who would otherwise be inclined to buy an EV, but can't because their apartment/condo parking situations don't allow it.
Your comments work for suburban home owners, but they aren't appropriate for those in urban situations that don't provide adequate infrastructure. Cincy has already commented that this is HIS situation, and he's far from alone.
For various reasons I think that the urbanist condo/apartment dweller and the potential EV driver have quite a bit of philosophical overlap, and yet this potential target segment must be removed from the calculations of total available market for EV purchasers.
Agree 100%.
CD's quotation from some source upthread pointed out as much. EV sales in the US are dominated by those in higher income brackets, who own their homes, majority white, and quite often the BEV is not the only vehicle in the household. As you can probably imagine, I'd say that demographic skews more conservative and would be less likely than "average" to desire an EV.
And the younger, single, apartment-dwelling, less affluent demographic probably skews more liberal and has much higher than "average" to desire an EV, but their living situation doesn't easily allow for charging at home. This screws up both the cost and convenience advantages of an EV, if they're even available to afford them at all, as EVs are generally more expensive than an equivalent ICEV.
I do expect that over the next decade, we'll see more and more apartment/condo facilities building in some sort of EV charging capability just due to demand and to offer competitive "amenities". I think maybe by 2035, having on-site charging might be table stakes for apartment/condo communities to attract people to live there. But it's certainly not in place today IMHO. And even if it's communal charging stations, that's STILL not as convenient as plugging in to the garage in your single family home at the end of the day and not having to unplug, to move your car, or to do anything like that to make the charger avalilble to someone else.
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Agree 100%.
CD's quotation from some source upthread pointed out as much. EV sales in the US are dominated by those in higher income brackets, who own their homes, majority white, and quite often the BEV is not the only vehicle in the household. As you can probably imagine, I'd say that demographic skews more conservative and would be less likely than "average" to desire an EV.
And the younger, single, apartment-dwelling, less affluent demographic probably skews more liberal and has much higher than "average" to desire an EV, but their living situation doesn't easily allow for charging at home. This screws up both the cost and convenience advantages of an EV, if they're even available to afford them at all, as EVs are generally more expensive than an equivalent ICEV.
I do expect that over the next decade, we'll see more and more apartment/condo facilities building in some sort of EV charging capability just due to demand and to offer competitive "amenities". I think maybe by 2035, having on-site charging might be table stakes for apartment/condo communities to attract people to live there. But it's certainly not in place today IMHO. And even if it's communal charging stations, that's STILL not as convenient as plugging in to the garage in your single family home at the end of the day and not having to unplug, to move your car, or to do anything like that to make the charger avalilble to someone else.
Living in apartments through college and early professional life, there were quite a few arguments and open fights over the most desirable parking spots.
I can't even imagine how much worse it could be, when people are vying for the spots that allow overnight charging. And how often those vehicles might be "accidentally" unplugged, and plugged into another car. And then more chaos and hilarity ensue.
I assume they'd make it a paid amenity, like having a garage or a guaranteed parking spot in front of your own front door is currently. But if it's a paid amenity, then it's not really analogous to the "free" overnight charging at your own suburban home.
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Living in apartments through college and early professional life, there were quite a few arguments and open fights over the most desirable parking spots.
I can't even imagine how much worse it could be, when people are vying for the spots that allow overnight charging. And how often those vehicles might be "accidentally" unplugged, and plugged into another car. And then more chaos and hilarity ensue.
I assume they'd make it a paid amenity, like having a garage or a guaranteed parking spot in front of your own front door is currently. But if it's a paid amenity, then it's not really analogous to the "free" overnight charging at your own suburban home.
Yeah, lots to work out there. For example at my office, we have a limited number of EV chargers in the parking garage. I think there is a maximum 4 hour use per parking spot, but I don't know how it is or would be enforced. My guess is that since we all work together, it's a sort of "honor system" sort of thing where you don't want to get the reputation as the guy/gal who just leaves their car plugged in for 8 hours. But I highly doubt that'll survive given apartment complex resident politics :57:
The other question is how you meter it. My recollection of typical apartments is that electric was one of the utilities you typically still had to pay, and it was individually metered per unit. I.e. you don't want someone coming in and setting up a bitcoin mine for cheap electricity rates lol. But when I lived in a complex with individually-assigned single garage units, there were no electric outlets in the garage because they couldn't be feasibly metered. So you have to either bring in a third-party charging company to install (which will mean they set the rates and it won't be cheap like charging "at home"), or if it's a paid amenity, you need to set the rate high enough on average to spread it over the entire user base and not lose money on the deal, if you can't meter it individually.
It's certainly not an easy problem, but I'm sure the world will slowly meander its way towards figuring it out lol...
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early adopters of apartment/condo chargers are gonna bill high fees to offset the initial coast and installation of the charging units and the power they draw.
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Not in our case, the two chargers we have here were installed "for free". I presume they run off building power though. The nearby Kroger now has four charger in the lot.
The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
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The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
so, the evil landlord will recoup the cost eventually if he's lucky
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Some company usually installs these chargers. It costs them money to build, install, and operate. They obviously then charge fees to make a profit and sell the power at ~3x retail. I forget which outfit installed ours, I looked at the meter once.
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Not in our case, the two chargers we have here were installed "for free". I presume they run off building power though. The nearby Kroger now has four charger in the lot.
The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
I'm not sure how true that actually is. From what I understand DC fast chargers typically are the most expensive to use, but the lower power chargers that are more economical to install may not have such exorbitant rates. If all you need is 2 hours at an L2 charger while you're perusing things at the mall or at the theater watching a movie, it might not be 3x.
I think some places (shopping centers) even may put them in as "free to use" (https://4frontenergy.com/blog/how-to-find-free-ev-charging/). Not owning one, I don't know how plentiful free EV chargers are or how easy it is to find them. And as EV ownership increases, I don't know how economically feasible it will be to actually continue seeing "free" anywhere.
But one might think, as well, that as EVs proliferate, charging locations may need to compete with each other on charging rates. From one google search you can search free chargers via the "PlugShare" app, but I couldn't look at their web site without registering so I didn't. I'm sure that these charging companies will allow you to filter based on charge rate to find the cheapest chargers, and over time that might drive the cost of EV charging down to bulk electricity rate + cost to install/amortize/maintain the charger + a reasonable profit. I highly doubt that will be 3x home charging.
Granted, this is just me speculating on the economics. But it's not like we don't see gas stations competing based on price. You don't see gas for 4.69/gal and on the opposite corner it's 7.49/gal. They have to compete. Usually they're all within a dime or two of each other per gallon within a small geographical area.
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I used 45 cents per kWhr, versus 15 cents at home. From what I can tell on line, this varies a lot of course but is probably near the median cost.
How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip? (investopedia.com) (https://www.investopedia.com/cost-to-charge-ev-road-trip-5219817)
I checked a number of sites on these costs and they all have wide ranges, 30-60 cents is a common one, so I used 45 cents. An L2 charger is less expensive, and slower.
I don't know how much a single charge costs, I'm sure that varies widely, but when considering initial cost, any maintenance, going costs, profit, I think 3x is not beyond the pale.
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- Electrify America has a network of 800-plus stations with around 3,500 fast chargers and is rapidly expanding. Its current charges in most states are 43 cents per kilowatt-hour for general users and 31 cents per kilowatt-hour for subscribers, who also pay a $4 monthly fee; however, the company announced pricing will increase in March to 48 cents and 36 cents, respectively. In some states, pricing is by the minute, which is also going up. Electrify America also charges 40 cents per minute if you don’t move the EV within 10 minutes after charging ends. The company lists rates by state here (https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing/).
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800-plus stations with around 3,500 fast chargers
so about 4 chargers per site
I was at a truck stop on I-80 in Iowa
there were about 6 chargers - one car charging with his tunes playing loud enough I could hear them
might have been the only car there in a day or two
usually no one waiting in line
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I used 45 cents per kWhr, versus 15 cents at home. From what I can tell on line, this varies a lot of course but is probably near the median cost.
How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip? (investopedia.com) (https://www.investopedia.com/cost-to-charge-ev-road-trip-5219817)
I checked a number of sites on these costs and they all have wide ranges, 30-60 cents is a common one, so I used 45 cents. An L2 charger is less expensive, and slower.
I don't know how much a single charge costs, I'm sure that varies widely, but when considering initial cost, any maintenance, going costs, profit, I think 3x is not beyond the pale.
Yeah, and I'm not saying 3x doesn't exist. On a road trip, you NEED a fast charger and it's worth paying for it. If you can get by with L2, it can bring the cost down.
I.e. I googled "average L2 charger rate in southern california" and this was the top result:
https://qmerit.com/blog/california-electrification-statistics/
California EV statistics reveal that operators charge an average of $0.20-$0.30 per kWh (https://driveclean.ca.gov/electric-car-charging) for public Level 2 EV charging stations and $0.40-$0.60 per kWh for DC Fast Charging (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-by-state/).
Which is in line with what you quoted for fast charging. But not the only option. It's the difference perhaps between 3x vs 1.5x.
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Fair point.
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Tesla's Cybertruck has a serious problem that only a complete redesign (fastcompany.com) (https://www.fastcompany.com/90945689/teslas-cybertruck-has-a-serious-problem-that-only-a-complete-redesign-can-fix?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=keywee_RSS&kwp_0=2314753&kwp_4=6576479&kwp_1=2811965&fbclid=IwAR05iYght8A3dhKw61X4kh5RuLzitKPgbiruxqiU1ZM_gEFcYo3ddaa61eU_aem_Adu5b7Od-c3UzXjCYC2D0766FYZiIGHZsHB5S8UZAtv8vRjrH21ovTT2zbU7eyuoC-HqGcLxkaMcWsFZyqheBaFB)
The design, to me, looks gimmicky, but which I mean I don't understand any functionality associated with it. It's a truck, to me it should be first functional, not in any way stylish if that detracts from the former. Yes, I think it's ugly, but that's an aside.
I understand the other light trucks also meant to look decent, but at the expense of major function. Someone might design a truck with little or no style and it probably wouldn't sell well overall, maybe as a pure work truck. But this one seems to combine polarizing style, at best, with reduced functionality.
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2024 Tesla Cybertruck vs. Rivian R1T vs. Ford F-150 Lightning: The Only Comparison Test You'll Need (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-tesla-cybertruck-vs-rivian-r1t-vs-ford-f-150-lightning-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=paid%3Asm_id%3Afb%3Amtoo%3A24%3AOOtraffic%3Aarticle%3Am18-65us%3Aqq9zz0324mt1&utm_medium=paid&utm_source=fb&utm_id=6551903458436&utm_content=6565289742836&utm_term=6551903460436&utm_campaign=6551903458436&fbclid=IwAR1jO6yYDWc20JNbf17YW6cVFajJ3hTFyc-RRpLAcEfs7YdiptVWpbjUIcs_aem_AU-UKVd8kWaWp6RBTzZAoTQ2iL-7bTLgCGQWdzFSN2skbgWffXMLmTw2a6bOQHN9thujuAoq7GpJ5Mni18I2ARyD)
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Ample is bringing the first-ever EV battery swap stations to Japan (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/03/28/ample-eneos-bringing-first-ev-battery-swap-stations-to-japan/?fbclid=IwAR0TqFyj6PFxOLI4GzBLUM2s9XHYXXU_BID1_FU-ZZGSUI18PKiOc7MNfKQ)
EV battery swap specialist Ample (https://electrek.co/guides/ample/) has announced it is bringing the first-ever modular swap stations to Japan with the help of partner ENEOS. The first Japanese swap stations will be erected in Kyoto and used by several local fleets.
Ample (https://ample.com/) is a California-based startup specializing in modular battery stations that are easy to install and move, all while occupying a minimal footprint. The company’s goal is to help enable 1 billion electric vehicles on roads worldwide someday.
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smart
I guess
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I think the concept has some real issues, much like inductive charging does as well, but both are being tried out, which is great I think.
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smart
I guess
Smart is buying a good car that lasts a long time and doesn't give you trouble.
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Structural batteries: A revolution for electric vehicles? - Geneva International Motor Show (genevamotorshow.com) (https://genevamotorshow.com/structural-batteries-a-revolution-for-electric-vehicles/)
Why EV Structural Batteries Are a Bad Idea | Engineering.com (https://www.engineering.com/story/why-ev-structural-batteries-are-a-bad-idea)
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https://youtu.be/t8KjxpiYTxo
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Tesla's Cybertruck has a serious problem that only a complete redesign (fastcompany.com) (https://www.fastcompany.com/90945689/teslas-cybertruck-has-a-serious-problem-that-only-a-complete-redesign-can-fix?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=keywee_RSS&kwp_0=2314753&kwp_4=6576479&kwp_1=2811965&fbclid=IwAR05iYght8A3dhKw61X4kh5RuLzitKPgbiruxqiU1ZM_gEFcYo3ddaa61eU_aem_Adu5b7Od-c3UzXjCYC2D0766FYZiIGHZsHB5S8UZAtv8vRjrH21ovTT2zbU7eyuoC-HqGcLxkaMcWsFZyqheBaFB)
The design, to me, looks gimmicky, but which I mean I don't understand any functionality associated with it. It's a truck, to me it should be first functional, not in any way stylish if that detracts from the former. Yes, I think it's ugly, but that's an aside.
I understand the other light trucks also meant to look decent, but at the expense of major function. Someone might design a truck with little or no style and it probably wouldn't sell well overall, maybe as a pure work truck. But this one seems to combine polarizing style, at best, with reduced functionality.
I think the majority of people buying the Tesla cybertruck right now, are either doing so for the novelty, or they are virtue signaling. It's definitely not a traditional truck-buying market segment.
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And that's a minor market of course. Maybe it's more functional than I think it is.
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And that's a minor market of course. Maybe it's more functional than I think it is.
Well, even the El Camino had some utility. I guess the cybertruck is really just a big, ugly El Camino.
I prefer this one, though:
(https://i.imgur.com/pNLjdpl.jpeg)
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I thought this one was fairly clever, I looked at one in the showroom, not for us, but kinda neat.
(https://i.imgur.com/3T01dtv.png)
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I vaguely recall that one. And then, there were these two, The Subaru Brat and the Dodge Rampage:
(https://i.imgur.com/A1tLypG.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gStb2WP.jpeg)
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Those are actually ugly enough to qualify for EV status.
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Well, even the El Camino had some utility. I guess the cybertruck is really just a big, ugly El Camino.
I prefer this one, though:
[img width=500 height=326.993]https://i.imgur.com/pNLjdpl.jpeg[/img]
I had a 73. Pretty close to this one
I preferred the looks of the older models
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If you need a light duty truck on occasion, but also need a functional "car" like conveyance, the Santa Cruz might do the trick. You can get a hybrid, so it's quasi-EV sort of, like our Tucson, which is of course is with the back chopped off.
(https://i.imgur.com/bkQ0FW2.jpeg)
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Yeah I'd still go with the El Camino. But that's definitely not HIDEOUS, like the cybertruck.
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I will admit, I've softened on the Rivian styling with those weird headlights. I've grown from hating them to not actively disliking them.
The real question is what'll happen to Rivian in the next 5 years, though. Can they survive as a standalone automaker?
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2025 Mercedes-Benz GLC350e Plug-In Hybrid First Look: Coming to America (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-mercedes-benz-glc350e-plug-in-hybrid-first-look-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2uSe4fQZZMUZVYjohhQecEWMfR4_TcTWkcZIOij46yepwnKNZGXucffD8)
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Gimme that in the GLE and I'd buy one.
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2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE-Class Plug-in Hybrid Prices, Reviews, and Pictures | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/gle-class/2024/plug-in-hybrid/)
2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE450e 4Matic PHEV First Drive: If Not AMG, Why Not PHEV? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-mercedes-benz-gle450e-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive-review/)
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I'm not very brand loyal on cars though my Dad was GM period. I've own three Chevys, a Ford (briefly), an Olds and a Dodge Minivan, a Honda CR V, three Cadillacs (which I liked), the VW GTI, and now a Hyundai.
Were I to buy a "fun car" today it might be the CT4V Blackwing with a manual.
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I've owned 4 Chrysler/MOPAR/Jeep, 2 GM, 2 Fords, 1 Honda, and 1 Toyota. There's been good and bad to all of them, but I'd willingly own any of those brands again-- except for Toyota which was the most mind-bogglingly awful piece of shit I've ever encountered. I'd never buy Toyota again.
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this ought to be well received
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-cracks-down-on-diesel-trucks-in-bid-to-fight-climate-change-reduce-emissions
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2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE-Class Plug-in Hybrid Prices, Reviews, and Pictures | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/gle-class/2024/plug-in-hybrid/)
2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE450e 4Matic PHEV First Drive: If Not AMG, Why Not PHEV? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-mercedes-benz-gle450e-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive-review/)
No regular hybrid?
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Ford Explorer EV Finally Goes On Sale, Promises Lower Chance Of Fiery Death (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/ford-explorer-ev-finally-goes-on-sale-promises-lower-c-1851366682?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1711483203&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR32mmEWIqNSZmvS1hIuRNEYnhAWVgRbvJC5jj3j3AOV61KwvmQpfPMUzYw)
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Models wearing the GLE350 badge are powered by a 255-hp turbocharged four-cylinder engine with either rear- or all-wheel drive (4Matic in Mercedes parlance) and a nine-speed automatic transmission. Stepping up to the GLE450 brings standard all-wheel drive and a 362-hp powertrain that consists of a turbocharged inline-six. Both the GLE350 and GLE450 utilize 48-volt hybrid systems. The GLE450e's plug-in hybrid powertrain (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43618291/2024-mercedes-benz-gle450e-drive/) comprises a turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder and an electric motor that combine for a total of 381 horsepower.
Apparently the GLE350 is a regular hybrid.
2024 GLE 350 4MATIC SUV | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com) (https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/model/gle/suv/gle350w4)
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Do EVs Produce Lower Carbon Emissions Than Gas Cars? It's Complicated (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/do-evs-produce-lower-carbon-emissions-than-gas-cars-it-1851373092?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1711740480&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR23whVNO_ZLpqBQOXRcJ_E_p9s4bS8bqd1ku3necCPA6dr5C-IBv4KIOPE)
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That video, it you watch it (or not), may be a bit over the top for EVs, but it does raise some issues about how gasoline is produced. I didn't check the figures of course.
It did not go into the energy needed to produce batteries unless I missed it. Nothing is "free".
I do think EVs are cleaner overall in a life cycle analysis, but they of course aren't completely clean at all.
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hell, a bicycle that you pedal isn't clean
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(https://i.imgur.com/ZhmfWX1.png)
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I like it that 16% in Japan are honest
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(https://i.imgur.com/myD4hdb.png)
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That looks appealing, but if commercial chargers today cost 30-60 cents per kWhour, how much would that cost?
I've noted before, even at 30 cents per kWhr, and 30 kWhrs per 100 miles, you're looking at $9 per hundred miles. Compare with say a Toyota Prius, admittedly a smaller car, but they get 50 mpg or more, ro 2 gallons of gas (not even the plug in version). I keep coming back to this because I keep wondering if this is correct. If so, it's probably THE major barrier to EV adoption.
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(https://i.imgur.com/myD4hdb.png)
Of note is that there are NO CARS using that very expensive lane in this picture.
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I don't know of any production EV today that could charge that way. My guess is this a mile or so of road to test the concept.
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Yes it would have to be a unique vehicle specifically modified for inductive charging. There are a few companies in the world that are now making such inductive charging receivers, that can be wired into the battery systems of various EVs.
Here's an article about a section of test road in Detroit that does the same thing:
https://eepower.com/news/detroit-tests-nations-first-wireless-ev-charging-road/#
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https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/teslas-first-quarter-vehicle-sales-fell-as-ev-market-cools-45bad95f?st=s02a0udngidu5kc&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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America Is Quickly Splitting Into Electric Vehicle nEVers and EV Supporters - Time For a Truce | Torque News (https://www.torquenews.com/1083/america-quickly-splitting-electric-vehicle-nevers-and-evangelists-time-truce?fbclid=IwAR2nM0uW1o46Cakk-39Rrq30S6bs0zhb9W-itKa-TUOOg7GQptcbOfw3CE4_aem_ASA3KPrQUBJF2uyrigz6Pep67JpLCqDYH36mmsR4wG6oe8-Vbm6ZSijopXoaIbGErciHStHXEk6FdL_FNXTO5P6j)
I agree, not so much here, but in general. And I think a lot of it reflects political bias, not analysis.
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It's got nothing to do with politics in my mind. It's about what is practical versus what is not.
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I think it's 83% political. Ii think many folks with strong opinions on the topic know very little about EVs, and it shows.
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For many (most?) people, it's not practical.
Working mom of 2, no husband, salary $50-60K. Rent $2500/month.
Not gonna buy an EV.
She's buying something to get her to work, pick up her kids, go home and repeat.
She's buying this:
(https://i.imgur.com/6BzKhOg.png)
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I am referring to folks who voice opinions on social media etc. Those opinions from what I can discern are largely based on political views, not some valid assessment.
An apolitical assessment would note pros and cons, not just one side or the other. One can easily list ONLY pros or cons and claim they are either great, or a fad/gimmick/golf cart being forced on us by guvmint.
Obviously, MOST car buyers of late (including me) are not buying an EV, a relative few are.
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I am referring to folks who voice opinions on social media etc. Those opinions from what I can discern are largely based on political views, not some valid assessment.
An apolitical assessment would note pros and cons, not just one side or the other. One can easily list ONLY pros or cons and claim they are either great, or a fad/gimmick/golf cart being forced on us by guvmint.
Obviously, MOST car buyers of late (including me) are not buying an EV, a relative few are.
I wouldn't know about that. This site is as close to social media as I get.
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I find it to be entertaining at times, and a bit of a window into how folks "think". It's also amazing how mad some can get over another's opinion.
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America Is Quickly Splitting Into Electric Vehicle nEVers and EV Supporters - Time For a Truce | Torque News (https://www.torquenews.com/1083/america-quickly-splitting-electric-vehicle-nevers-and-evangelists-time-truce?fbclid=IwAR2nM0uW1o46Cakk-39Rrq30S6bs0zhb9W-itKa-TUOOg7GQptcbOfw3CE4_aem_ASA3KPrQUBJF2uyrigz6Pep67JpLCqDYH36mmsR4wG6oe8-Vbm6ZSijopXoaIbGErciHStHXEk6FdL_FNXTO5P6j)
I agree, not so much here, but in general. And I think a lot of it reflects political bias, not analysis.
I suspect there are political or at least socio-economical splits for many new technologies that come along. I have no doubt there were vigorous debates about the horseless carriage when it began to share the roads with horses pulling buggies and wagons. Right up until the point that it replaced it.
Of course early versions relied on steam-engines. They were dangerous and inefficient. Then along came the ICE, and the debate was over.
This could be like that. Or, maybe not.
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Predicintg the future is fraught, usually, but it's interesting to mull how personal transportation in the US could be in say 2050. I see predictions that half the cars on the road would still be ICE vehicles, not to mention heavy trucks. That would not be nearly as rapid a changeover as say CDs or DVDs or horseless carriages or steam to DE trains. And of course it's possible some breakthrough happens, like the Toyota claims for their new batteries. That would change things a lot, if true, and not expensive as heck.
Norway is transitioning VERY rapidly, I wonder if that is too rapid, and they end up stuck with a lot of obsolescent EVs in a decade.
We have one poster here interested in an EV out of about 20 or so who are not, that could be about "normal".
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I'm interested in hybrid, but not plug-in.
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Yeah, me too. Toyota and Honda may have made the correct call here.
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I just don't want a Toyota or Honda.
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I've never owned a Japanese vehicle and I don't think I ever will
an EV?
Maybe, if it saves me $$$
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Build Your Own 2024 GLE 450 4MATIC SUV | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com) (https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/build/gle/suv/gle450w4)
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I always wanted a German car
might not happen
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Build Your Own 2024 GLE 450 4MATIC SUV | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com) (https://www.mbusa.com/en/vehicles/build/gle/suv/gle450w4)
I buy two year old cars, in general. Someone else can take the beating. Someone from Naples or something.
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Ford to delay all-electric SUV to focus on hybrid vehicles (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/04/ford-to-delay-all-electric-suv-to-focus-on-hybrid-vehicles.html)
Maybe we should instead discuss the pros and cons of hybrids.
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Vehicle? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45036169/electric-vehicle-ev-cost-to-charge/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1SqHu0w4K_LQLOvUUAS-LUB3xqMV31xk_omn_7W33NNRp6BryttAVvrdw)
Finally ....
Overall, home charging was always much cheaper for 100 miles than paying for gasoline in a comparable vehicle—as little as one-quarter the price. On the other hand, DC fast-charging used for road trips was generally pricier than gasoline. But very inefficient vehicles driven in places where gasoline is very expensive may still come out slightly ahead for highway charging.
Most EVs today cover the bulk of their miles using charging at home or work, so the weighted average gives EVs a decisive advantage—though this may not apply to apartment dwellers without the ability to install their own charging equipment.
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Poor resale values of EVs are a problem for the industry, warn experts (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/poor-resale-values-of-evs-are-a-problem-for-the-industry-warn-experts.html)
A recent study showed that the average price of an EV fell 31.8% in the past year compared to just 3.6% for internal combustion engine vehicles.
The fast depreciation rate could dissuade car buyers from choosing EVs over combustion engine vehicles.
The price war in the new EV market could continue to suppress prices for their used counterparts.
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bingo
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Poor resale values of EVs are a problem for the industry, warn experts (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/05/poor-resale-values-of-evs-are-a-problem-for-the-industry-warn-experts.html)
A recent study showed that the average price of an EV fell 31.8% in the past year compared to just 3.6% for internal combustion engine vehicles.
The fast depreciation rate could dissuade car buyers from choosing EVs over combustion engine vehicles.
The price war in the new EV market could continue to suppress prices for their used counterparts.
Makes sense if you expect prices to fall..
If you think an EV will be cheaper to buy next year, it's prudent to put off the purchase. Which incidentally can depress demand in the aggregate, forcing automakers to cut pricing to move metal.
And if you expect the price of a new EV to keep declining, you're going to expect an even deeper discount to buy used than you would if you expected new car pricing to be stable.
And of course this is why automakers are scaling back EV production. They need to reset supply to match demand to stop price erosion. Because they can't cut costs as quickly as the market thinks price will drop. They need pricing to stabilize to reset consumer expectation--in a sort of tautology--in pricing stability.
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A recent study (https://www.iseecars.com/used-car-prices-study)from iSeeCars.com showed the average price of a 1- to 5-year-old used EV in the U.S. fell 31.8% over the past 12 months, equating to a value loss of $14,418. In comparison, the average price for a comparably aged internal combustion engine vehicle fell just 3.6%.
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Does an EV Work as Well in Cold Weather? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60344222/does-an-ev-work-as-well-in-cold-weather/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2Z-q9k5rrxE4exBqnIDFxtpulFbEtjaLQFS-BUDi8WbRmSq2lpbnFO4bE)
Of course not, no surprises here.
We recently ran a 75-mph highway-range test on our long-term Rivian R1T (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a45618489/2023-rivian-r1t-adventure-reliability-maintenance/) on a very cold, 12-degree day, and its range was 190 miles versus 250 in a moderate temperature, a loss of 60 miles or 24 percent.
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range in gassers also suffers in cold weather
not that percentage but some
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An ICE car will get better mpgs to a point, down to around 40°F or so, and then it ebbs, yes. This is less true for boosted engines.
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What Happens If You Never Charge Your Plug-In-Hybrid Car? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60288363/what-happens-if-you-never-charge-your-plug-in-hybrid-car/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BGA0Z0dSmCMroVn77P3PK5-wGrXXz0hO1tjl_YhqEz8AkCketyNN6QB8)
Surprisingly large numbers of hybrid car owners don't bother to use the electric power that's part of the selling point. Is this a problem?
I suspect some may have discovered if they can't charge at home, there is no savings.
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bought em cause it was the thing to do
no idea why
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Who is making just straight-up hybrids now? Anyone besides Toyota or Honda?
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Who is making just straight-up hybrids now? Anyone besides Toyota or Honda?
Just about everybody is, even the new Corvette E-Ray is a hybrid, and a lot of supercars are as well. Our new Hyundai Tuscon is a "mild" hybrid, not plugin.
In our case, I liked it mostly because it has more power than the regular Tuscon. It seems to get better gas mileage in town, which I suppose makes sense. And most of our driving is urban.
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Mercedes-Benz Mild Hybrid: Overview and Benefits (mercedesbenzofeaston.com) (https://www.mercedesbenzofeaston.com/mercedes-benz-mild-hybrid-overview/)
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Just about everybody is, even the new Corvette E-Ray is a hybrid,
zero to 60
2.5
with a 6.2 liter gas burner
not saving the planet
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Hybrids in supercars are there for acceleration, not fuel economy.
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The hybrid MB's on the site above are all new AMG models. More than I would spend, even though I really like AMG. Plus, the GLE's were all the coupe models, which I find to be unattractive and less practical.
(https://i.imgur.com/fRafpy1.jpeg)
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What Happens If You Never Charge Your Plug-In-Hybrid Car? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60288363/what-happens-if-you-never-charge-your-plug-in-hybrid-car/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BGA0Z0dSmCMroVn77P3PK5-wGrXXz0hO1tjl_YhqEz8AkCketyNN6QB8)
Surprisingly large numbers of hybrid car owners don't bother to use the electric power that's part of the selling point. Is this a problem?
I suspect some may have discovered if they can't charge at home, there is no savings.
The nice things about a plug in hybrid is that with the small battery, you can probably fully charge overnight on 110V.
I can't imagine why anyone with charge capability at home wouldn't take advantage.
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My GUESS is a lot of folks bought one not understanding how it might work. I know of one plugin hybrid Jeep here, I hadn't known they made one, but I see it plugged in every so often, but not routinely. The other possibility is they figured out charging is expensive from commercial outlets such as we have here. The other possibility is that folks are just lazy, they find the car runs fine without plugging it in, so they only do it on occasion, usually they feel too busy to do it.
But if you own your own home, by all means. And 110v should be adequate to charge it up overnight.
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https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4580558-more-in-us-say-they-wouldnt-consider-buying-ev-gallup/
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https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4580558-more-in-us-say-they-wouldnt-consider-buying-ev-gallup/
Might not have a choice down the road, if the current path is followed.
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(https://i.imgur.com/EmDOlmZ.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/mKjb8HF.png)
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I know some folks are worried about EV "mandates" and think they'll be forced to buy EVs only by say 2035. Indeed, that is a current plan for some states like CA. Such plans of course are one governator away from change. And even a liberal governor might recognize in 2034 that the "System" isn't ready (and maybe it will be).
But for CA residents, there would be no problem as yet buying some lightly used ICE vehicle in Nevada (or in CA for that matter). I'd guess a thriving used car business will spring up. This presumes that EVs and the infrastructure for them don't improve a lot to the point most rational folks agree they are equal in most respects and better in some. They aren't today, they could be in a decade.
I still am hungup on the cost of charging away from home. Maybe that gets subsidized. But if you thing about it, a company that provides such chargers has to buy the charger, pay for installation and then electricity, plus maintenance, billing, etc. etc. Maybe in CA they could do it for say double the average cost of electricity, or perhaps at least 15 cents for profit and sunk costs etc.
Electricity Cost in California: 2024 Electric Rates | EnergySage (https://www.energysage.com/local-data/electricity-cost/ca/)
Electricity Rates by State | April 2024 | ChooseEnergy.com® (https://www.chooseenergy.com/electricity-rates-by-state/)
I don't know if that is accurate, it seems high, and I see figures all over the place, let's just take 30 cents as the average. So, the away from home charger would cost 45-60 cents per kWhr. The math still doesn't work out for the EV. They require about 30 kWhrs to go 100 miles. Even at 30 cents, that would cost $9 obviously. I know gas is high out there, let's say the cost goes even higher in the future to $5/gallon. At 20 mpg, you're looking at a costly $25 for 100 miles, ouch.
But of course, a hybrid vehicle similar to the EV might get more like 40 mpg, so your advantage shrinks to being smallish, and if you charge away from home, it goes negative with any realistic calculation. Maybe pickup trucks and SUVs could have better numbers, maybe not. I'd guess hybrid large pickups will be a thing by then.
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Of course if you rarely charge away from home, this isn't much of an issue. But compare this with a plugin hybrid. You get roughly 35 miles of electric range, usually good enough for work and back. Then you use some gas, probably getting 35+ mpg. But mostly you'd be using electrons in daily life.
The benefit for reducing usage of gasoline would be pretty significant (presuming you plug it in at home). Maybe 10% of your trips exceed 35 miles and perhaps net out to 200 miles, so you'd use gas for 165 miles at 35 mpg, or about 3 gallons. Not bad. A pure ICe vehicle would be using it all the time of course.
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electricity prices could rise with demand
I'm hoping gas prices might lower with reduced demand
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That might happen in 20 years or so, but EV usage will remain pretty low for quite a while yet. And we still have heavy trucks.
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Tesla is laying off more than 10% of its global workforce, equivalent to at least 14,000 roles, as the electric carmaker reacts to slowing demand and pressure on prices.
The chief executive, Elon Musk, announced “the difficult decision” in a memo first reported by the online publication Elektrek. Tesla employs 140,473 people, according to its annual report.
Musk wrote that Tesla had grown rapidly in recent years and as a result there had been duplication of roles and job functions in certain areas.
Referring to the job cuts, he wrote: “There is nothing I hate more, but it must be done. This will enable us to be lean, innovative and hungry for the next growth phase cycle.”
The move follows a difficult start to the year for the electric carmaker. Tesla said it had made approximately 387,000 deliveries to customers in the first quarter of 2024, missing market expectations by about 13%. It was its first fall in deliveries in nearly four years.
The company cited production problems caused by unforeseen factors such as attacks on shipping in the Red Sea and an arson attack on its factory in Berlin, but the figures also pointed to a softening in global demand.
After the release of the sales figures this month, Musk dismissed comments that his divisive persona had caused a downturn in sales and pointed to similarly poor figures from the Chinese rival BYD, saying it was a “tough quarter for everyone”.
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Took mom to look at new cars today. At the dealership they had a Blazer EV sitting out front. Nice looking car. I told my mom wow that’s cool. An electric Blazer. She’s 76, so not much into anything on technology.
She said, “ Oh, you can’t buy an EV. You don’t want that”. I said why not, to which she responded about how her 401k is tied up in oil stocks etc. I laughed to myself, because I moved most of it out of the oil stocks and into the S&P500, where it is doing far better than the oil stocks. But she doesn’t know, and wouldn’t understand if I told her. My dad retired from a major oil company, so he was always high on oil stocks. I handle the account for her, and all she knows is that she gets a distribution every year, but what she doesn’t know or u derstand is that there is more money in it now than when she started.
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I actually took it for a spin, it had over 300 miles left on the range, and was getting about 3 miles per kWh, which isn’t bad. It was fast and roomy.
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And the price was in the 40’s , which is about what you’d pay for a comparable ICE suv. I’d consider buying one for my commuter car if I was in the market.
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I think they are getting better all the time, and reducing the negatives, but there is the one main thing I keep harping on that won't change without major subsidies.
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So much in "life" today is replete with irony, I'm ecstatic. Or my hair has static. Or I am static. Or something.
GM and Ford count on gas-powered trucks as EV growth slows - Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2024/04/19/gm-and-ford-count-on-gas-powered-trucks-as-ev-growth-slows/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2PmMdb4fcoSysFnMux3Kqz4gDoC-MS5NoW0lXFnYz2QQ1CmA3NEUpiQ4U_aem_AR4pIxLWETy7MfFVszEm_9YVW7SBR8UKRFUELaO3Ewdb4HzWlKuJ0K5hctNcSrCNhhMIWNL6sbKmVW9csDJi1JVf&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9sLmZhY2Vib29rLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACWVtCwGPeDP7lDoNsQJ5AcA8KqrFp_DMX8YJK8qv-Ex8Bfin7GDZRXxQyOpA9wKpo6A5lc5Oh90EpFawr7RvUC7S4fucfVfNqcXODI0C4yInAt3w9LG4xBk4yNMtrb47crIMh2jAloeO33on5gt3bss4h9r5GsTGs6_wWr8oj7w)
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2024 Hyundai Ioniq 6 Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-6?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1ToRdbnK1iiZnko9eY5PL_isw8RZbd_wMkxt4j6UY7QXOI9u1yVqKTqmg_aem_Ad96l04VCl55O2GBDiCkSoDC7wNJ5_2N_HxTdLA4_msppNcJ7Nn6X-Bse6xYE0Ik5vkdaXtJOjy-VP71m1imQ0E5)
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(https://i.imgur.com/EmDOlmZ.png)
Since the day you posted this, I've been thinking about responding... I can imagine what would happen if the world was primarily EV but we invented the ICE now.
First, let me set the stage. Because if we live in a BEV world, you have to essentially postulate that our existing infrastructure was in place to support EVs. Almost everyone would charge at home. Even in shared places like apartment/condo dwellings. It would become "table stakes" for rental properties to have charging. You would have a robust 3rd party charging network in cities and on interstates. Everyone would know where to charge and who had "the best rates", and that would cause charging to drive down profit above cost so public charging was only slightly more expensive than home charging unless you need a DC fast charger. And beyond that, the "important" part, everyone would be used to BEVs and so the idea of an ICEV would be foreign and new.
Can you imagine the complaints?
- What do you mean I can't charge at home overnight? I have to drive somewhere to get it ready? What if I can't find anyplace? (Remember there wouldn't be fueling stations on every corner if we've just invented ICEV). How will I find a fueling station? Is there an app for that?
- Wait, I have to put gas in my car? Gas, a flammable/explosive material? What happens if it ignites? What happens if my car starts on fire? I know there's a very low risk of batteries catching on fire, but it must be MUCH higher (https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk) for these cars running on a flammable liquid!
- Ugh. If I really have to put fuel in, AND I have to find a fueling station, I want to do it as rarely as possible. I want a 30-gallon gas tank so I never have to worry about whether I'll have enough gas to get someplace, and I don't have drive all over town to fill it up very often!
- Man, these stupid ICEV engines have no low end torque! What a terrible driving experience! When I press the pedal, I want to GO. My BEV has instant torque.
- Why is it so LOUD?!?! I want to hear myself think, not listen to some engine running.
- Ew, what the heck is that smell coming out of the exhaust?! That's disgusting! It can-NOT be good for us.
- I mean, I guess the fast "fueling" or whatever is great, but that's only important for people who are going on road trips, like, EVERY weekend. I haven't been to a public charger since that trip I took last summer, and is it REALLY that bad to wait 20-30 minutes and stretch my legs after 4 hours behind the wheel?
I mean, think it over. If we'd spent our entire lives living a BEV paradigm, and then some quirky billionaire tried to up-end it in the favor of the next big thing, "gas-powered vehicles!", do you really think it would be welcomed?
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(AP) - Tesla is recalling 3,878 of its 2024 Cybertrucks after it discovered that the accelerator pedal can become stuck, potentially causing the vehicle to accelerate unintentionally and increase the risk of a crash.
The accelerator pedal pad may dislodge and become trapped by the interior trim, according to a filing with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
The recall involves model year 2024 Cybertrucks made between Nov. 13, 2023 and April 4, 2024, according to the NHTSA.
As of Monday, Tesla was not aware of any collisions, injuries or deaths related to the issue, the NHTSA said. Cybertrucks in production had been outfitted with a new accelerator pedal component by Wednesday of this week, according to the NHTSA.
Tesla, which is headed by billionaire Elon Musk, said that it will replace or repair the accelerator pedal assembly for free. Owners may contact Tesla customer service at 1-877-798-3752. Tesla’s number for the recall is SB-24-33-003
Notification letters are expected to be mailed to vehicle owners in June.
The automaker delivered the first dozen or so of its futuristic Cybertruck pickups to customers in November, two years behind the original schedule, with uncertainty over when large-scale production could begin.
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3,878 people actually bought one of those things?
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Since the day you posted this, I've been thinking about responding... I can imagine what would happen if the world was primarily EV but we invented the ICE now.
First, let me set the stage. Because if we live in a BEV world, you have to essentially postulate that our existing infrastructure was in place to support EVs. Almost everyone would charge at home. Even in shared places like apartment/condo dwellings. It would become "table stakes" for rental properties to have charging. You would have a robust 3rd party charging network in cities and on interstates. Everyone would know where to charge and who had "the best rates", and that would cause charging to drive down profit above cost so public charging was only slightly more expensive than home charging unless you need a DC fast charger. And beyond that, the "important" part, everyone would be used to BEVs and so the idea of an ICEV would be foreign and new.
Can you imagine the complaints?
- What do you mean I can't charge at home overnight? I have to drive somewhere to get it ready? What if I can't find anyplace? (Remember there wouldn't be fueling stations on every corner if we've just invented ICEV). How will I find a fueling station? Is there an app for that?
- Wait, I have to put gas in my car? Gas, a flammable/explosive material? What happens if it ignites? What happens if my car starts on fire? I know there's a very low risk of batteries catching on fire, but it must be MUCH higher (https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk) for these cars running on a flammable liquid!
- Ugh. If I really have to put fuel in, AND I have to find a fueling station, I want to do it as rarely as possible. I want a 30-gallon gas tank so I never have to worry about whether I'll have enough gas to get someplace, and I don't have drive all over town to fill it up very often!
- Man, these stupid ICEV engines have no low end torque! What a terrible driving experience! When I press the pedal, I want to GO. My BEV has instant torque.
- Why is it so LOUD?!?! I want to hear myself think, not listen to some engine running.
- Ew, what the heck is that smell coming out of the exhaust?! That's disgusting! It can-NOT be good for us.
- I mean, I guess the fast "fueling" or whatever is great, but that's only important for people who are going on road trips, like, EVERY weekend. I haven't been to a public charger since that trip I took last summer, and is it REALLY that bad to wait 20-30 minutes and stretch my legs after 4 hours behind the wheel?
I mean, think it over. If we'd spent our entire lives living a BEV paradigm, and then some quirky billionaire tried to up-end it in the favor of the next big thing, "gas-powered vehicles!", do you really think it would be welcomed?
Thoughtful response.
Far too thoughtful for a whimsical meme, I'd say. :)
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Thoughtful response.
Far too thoughtful for a whimsical meme, I'd say. :)
I'd agree.
But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it was typical for a meme--funny and makes sense, as long as you don't actually take the time to think it through.
I think if we were in a BEV world where all the infrastructure existed to support it, people would have grown used to the BEV paradigm. That would be "normal". They would be as resistant to change as most ICEV owners are now. Viewed through that lens, pretty much everything I mentioned about ICEV looks terrible.
So I just couldn't help it. Had to post.
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Well, you didn't have to.
;)
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Well, you didn't have to.
;)
(https://i.imgur.com/mPrU5EH.png)
:57:
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3,878 people actually bought one of those things?
I spotted this one today. Not only did someone buy it, but they thought this was a good idea...
(https://i.imgur.com/R7dinZX.jpeg)
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Electric vehicles are 'direct wealth transfer' from owners of gas-powered vehicles to EV owners, experts say | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/electric-vehicles-direct-wealth-transfer-owners-gas-powered-vehicles-ev-owners-experts)
I THINK we're going to see mfgrs backing off EVs, we already are, in favor of hybrids, and governments will back off eventually after making their social commentary.
Waving one's hands about EVs (or climate) doesn't make it so.
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I'm seeing a lot more Rivians around lately. They're not horrible-looking. Way better than the Cybertruck, obviously.
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I saw a Rivian delivery van (Amazon) yesterday. I am hopeful those take hold.
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I dipped my toe into the electrical vehicle waters. My son is starting up a lawnmowing business and so we got this to help him along:
(https://i.imgur.com/4C4PMb4.jpeg)
Of course I had to test it all out and so far I'm loving the performance and the ease of use and maintenance.
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If we still had the house, I would have an electric mower and the other items probably to include the very useful electric beer cart.
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I'm seeing a lot more Rivians around lately. They're not horrible-looking. Way better than the Cybertruck, obviously.
Agreed. At the beginning, I thought the Rivian headlights were a bit weird, and to an extent I still do, but they seem less so as I've gotten used to them.
Beyond the headlights, the truck and SUV are decently styled vehicles. Nothing that "stands out", but also nothing wrong with them.
Given that they're an early entrant and may have a leg up on the BEV learning curve, I might consider a used one when I replace the Flex if I go EV. By that time (several years from now) I'll have a lot more info on whether they're going to remain viable as a company, which I think is a concern.
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I still think the headlights are unnecessarily weird and overly-futuristic-looking, but overall the vehicles look okay to me.
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Fine except the front. And the price.
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For a delivery van, the appearance is of no consequence to me, at all. The one I saw was larger than typical. And they don't sit and idle of course. They make sense to me, unless the cost is out of whack completely.
Obviously, here we have a swarm of vans daily. The folks who staff the desk in the lobby often can't be seen if the boxes pile up before they can register and store them.
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Since the day you posted this, I've been thinking about responding... I can imagine what would happen if the world was primarily EV but we invented the ICE now.
First, let me set the stage. Because if we live in a BEV world, you have to essentially postulate that our existing infrastructure was in place to support EVs. Almost everyone would charge at home. Even in shared places like apartment/condo dwellings. It would become "table stakes" for rental properties to have charging. You would have a robust 3rd party charging network in cities and on interstates. Everyone would know where to charge and who had "the best rates", and that would cause charging to drive down profit above cost so public charging was only slightly more expensive than home charging unless you need a DC fast charger. And beyond that, the "important" part, everyone would be used to BEVs and so the idea of an ICEV would be foreign and new.
Can you imagine the complaints?
- What do you mean I can't charge at home overnight? I have to drive somewhere to get it ready? What if I can't find anyplace? (Remember there wouldn't be fueling stations on every corner if we've just invented ICEV). How will I find a fueling station? Is there an app for that?
- Wait, I have to put gas in my car? Gas, a flammable/explosive material? What happens if it ignites? What happens if my car starts on fire? I know there's a very low risk of batteries catching on fire, but it must be MUCH higher (https://core.verisk.com/Insights/Emerging-Issues/Articles/2023/August/Week-4/Electric-Vehicle-Fire-Risk) for these cars running on a flammable liquid!
- Ugh. If I really have to put fuel in, AND I have to find a fueling station, I want to do it as rarely as possible. I want a 30-gallon gas tank so I never have to worry about whether I'll have enough gas to get someplace, and I don't have drive all over town to fill it up very often!
- Man, these stupid ICEV engines have no low end torque! What a terrible driving experience! When I press the pedal, I want to GO. My BEV has instant torque.
- Why is it so LOUD?!?! I want to hear myself think, not listen to some engine running.
- Ew, what the heck is that smell coming out of the exhaust?! That's disgusting! It can-NOT be good for us.
- I mean, I guess the fast "fueling" or whatever is great, but that's only important for people who are going on road trips, like, EVERY weekend. I haven't been to a public charger since that trip I took last summer, and is it REALLY that bad to wait 20-30 minutes and stretch my legs after 4 hours behind the wheel?
I mean, think it over. If we'd spent our entire lives living a BEV paradigm, and then some quirky billionaire tried to up-end it in the favor of the next big thing, "gas-powered vehicles!", do you really think it would be welcomed?
The other thing is, that it far exaggerates the weight difference. I haven't looked at it lately, but it's definitely not "twice the weight". It's more like a few hundred pounds heavier for most cars. I haven't seen the specs on the EV trucks but I'm assuming that they are also a few hundred lbs heavier.
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- A Tesla Model 3 Performance with AWD (https://www.tesla.com/model3) weighs 4,065 pounds -- 379 pounds more than a BMW 330i XDrive (https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/3-series/sedan/core-models.html#features-and-specifications).
- A Tesla Model S Long Range weighs 4,560 pounds -- 510 pounds more than a BMW 540i XDrive (https://www.bmwusanews.com/newsrelease.do?id=3595&mid=112), which is no lightweight.
- A Chevy Bolt (https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/bolt-ev/2020.tab1.html) weighs 3,563 pounds -- a huge 829 pounds more than a Nissan Kicks (https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/kicks/specs/compare-specs.html#modelName=SV|Xtronic CVT®).
Curb Weight | 2022 Ford F-150 vs. The Ford F-150 Electric Lightning. The 2022 Ford F-150 curb weight is rated at 4,021 to 5,014 pounds. For now, the 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning will have a curb weight of around 6,500 pounds.
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https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-tsla-q1-earnings-report-2024-c22f54d1?st=h7bta7eahkx7n0h&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Tesla in trouble?
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Some trouble, maybe a lot, hard to know yet. I don't own any of the stock and won't buy it.
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Rivian pickup curb weight is 7,148 lbs for reference.
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https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/tesla-tsla-q1-earnings-report-2024-c22f54d1?st=h7bta7eahkx7n0h&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Tesla in trouble?
Easy to look at. See how many wildly optimistic statements Musk is making publicly. The more he's been making, the more serious the situation for Tesla.
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Yep. Needs to get his yapper shut.
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Tesla (TSLA) earnings Q1 2024 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/23/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2024-.html)
If Musk would "shut up", I think it could help. Where is that solar roof he promised? The tractor for trailers? (I know they have one in very small numbers). Now, the "affordable" EV is on the horizon, apparently.
Maybe that "Powerwall" is a real thing that works and is worth it? Maybe not.
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Top 10 most purchased EVs and their battery replacement costs | Digital Insurance (dig-in.com) (https://www.dig-in.com/list/top-10-most-purchased-evs-and-their-battery-replacement-costs?utm_source=audiencedev&utm_medium=social&utm_content=AllProspects&utm_campaign=facebook-keywee&utm_term=anyword&kwp_0=2351789&kwp_4=6600823&kwp_1=2819784&utm_id=120209822764470387&fbclid=IwAR0RIq9X7wS7X7Wam6kvqYlzPZoqqZBbL3iccnkCSLP46xNbLFciPniZQBw_aem_AWe8iAAai2pP9oCTghK93Q9esl7M4V8ZT-tOtp3VGXm1idDqyucuQa02W3FOXykq2MbMvGyfVq3ODNDiTH3IgThV)
Even if these last 12 years, even 15 years, this remains a significant issue, I think.
You'd basically total your car in however many years, even as a beater it would have negative value. You can sell a cheap 15 year old ICE car for something.
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I looked at a Tesla roof actually. About $250K with the storage and back feed. Nah.
I took the new $60K roof (just got done finally) and a $20K Generac (2021).
We're good.
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Rivian pickup curb weight is 7,148 lbs for reference.
geez
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I saw a Rivian SUV yesterday. It looked OK from the back, but I walked past it, of course it has the weird headlights. It was in traffic behind a Tesla 3 at a red light.
Unrelated, the light changed and the first car started off as usual and someone in a Toyota Corolla blew through on red the other way, it was pretty close.
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Tesla (TSLA) earnings Q1 2024 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/23/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2024-.html)
If Musk would "shut up", I think it could help. Where is that solar roof he promised? The tractor for trailers? (I know they have one in very small numbers). Now, the "affordable" EV is on the horizon, apparently.
Maybe that "Powerwall" is a real thing that works and is worth it? Maybe not.
Musk says a lot. In 2019 he said there'd be 1M Tesla robotaxis on the road in 2020. I've seen more Cybertrucks in the last week than robotaxis have ever existed from Tesla.
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I can't believe how many people bought Cybertrucks.
Even if that number were only twenty-seven, I still wouldn't be able to believe how many people bought Cybertrucks.
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Tesla Has Only Delivered 36 Semi Trucks To PepsiCo Since 2017 (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/716902/tesla-semi-deliveries-pepsico-april-2024/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1t-ZY1VqS4f8vY_LomtW6lcjpceC8OZMQ36gW0IUyF_nCeZyGq1lsiMWU_aem_AaZvoZCUkRJ3dYyzUXR1YrfZeRTn8Kg60i0v9BbRp58JB0_d2jofTyCLw8CIZisCFALVvTcKoc7Gxl7JeVygIIWN)
[color=var(--heading-color-special)]PepsiCo Ordered 100 Tesla Semis In 2017. Tesla Delivered 36 So Far[/color]
[color=var(--heading-color-special)]Tesla built roughly 140 Semis to date, according to historical data and a new report from Reuters.[/color]
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U.S. Non-Tesla EV Sales By Brand In Q1 2024: Slower Growth, But With Some Winners (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/716996/us-ev-sales-q1-2024/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR00YKGApzz6cbH80q5JHkafO09wnvMBE0cdiIL0PaHCzC-vkH4dBJYf_4o_aem_AabuAhperq0lotuLK3wQtwJ8dWamcv-ogmIDlcRcbkKGnS15j3zdukZ40MQBRNUr1TIFiyvmpoMioqqs0wScsHOa)
(https://i.imgur.com/YbLPJjd.png)
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This is probably obvious to most around here.
Why do electric cars usually have only 1 gear? (motorauthority.com) (https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1114891_why-do-electric-cars-usually-have-only-1-gear?ta=&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A Trending)
One advantage of most EVs is torque, a lot of it, everwhere. Some folks say this is why they wear tires out faster than an ICEV.
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Are EVs Really Going to Replace Gasoline-Powered Cars? - Autotrader (https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/will-evs-replace-gasoline-powered-cars?LNX=SOMEDFBGENPOST&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand)
EVs remain less than 4% of the vehicles on American roads. Today, the average car in the U.S. is [color=var(--wp--preset--color--blurple-blue-500)]over 12 years old (https://www.autotrader.com/archive/average-age-of-cars-on-the-road-hits-12-1-years)[/iurl], so replacing most vehicles on the road will take many years.[/font][/size][/color]
The California Air Resources Board voted to ban sales of new gas-powered cars by 2035, and some other states plan to follow California’s lead. However, the U.S. Energy Information Administration projects that shifting buyer interest to an EV-majority market might take several decades.
Predictions on consumer acceptance of electric vehicles vary. The CEO of Toyota Motor North America thinks EVs will make up around 30% of the U.S. new vehicle market by 2030. That’s half of what the EPA was seeking last year. Toyota reportedly will let consumer demand guide the automaker’s EV production rather than spend money investing in EVs without customers ready to buy them.
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Another prediction is that only about half the cars on the road in the US will be EVs by 2050, 26 years from now. That looks about right to me.
I idly wonder how long it took for automobiles to be half the vehicles in the US back in the day. Twenty years? Maybe not.
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Hertz To Sell Off Even More EVs As Depreciation Losses Mount (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/717612/hertz-ev-sales-2024/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1tFmmLrOS9AdYvzdLZOa_SFI4t4z1qoCrMQyGUAAT94Woj36zqUMguP0M_aem_AZlBur-onNEQziv02aRNDxlY_3-dwa0V0Cjd0BCnlLTwssEyqGi2jVzfHH18xZBEAnpKAXMBOG3tt1QLO0TcGfCn)
I assume most rental cars are used to fairly long trips, maybe some at the airport are more local. But you get to a new city, perhaps on an expense account, and you don't know about the charging infrastructure, and you stay with ol' reliable ICE-Vs.
Perhaps this could have been foreseen.
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Tesla:
(https://i.imgur.com/yMCEBrE.png)
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Tesla:
(https://i.imgur.com/yMCEBrE.png)
Let's take a look at a couple stocks and their 12-month forward PE ratio:
- Tesla / TSLA 62.9
- Ford / F 6.22
- General Motors / GM 4.79
- Toyota / TM 10.27
- Honda / HMC 12.98
- Volkswagen / VWAGY 2.54
- Merc / MBGYY 5.33
- BMW / BMWYY 5.87
- Rivian / RIVN (N/A, losing money so no earnings)
Why in the world would anyone think TSLA is worth that multiple? The forward EPS is $2.58. That's Ford territory ($2.08 forward EPS). Toyota's is over $22.
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For reverence, just about the hottest tech stock in existence right now is NVidia (NVDA). They make the GPUs that are powering all the AI models.
They're trading at a 31.88 forward multiple. Half that of Tesla.
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Let's take a look at a couple stocks and their 12-month forward PE ratio:
- Tesla / TSLA 62.9
- Ford / F 6.22
- General Motors / GM 4.79
- Toyota / TM 10.27
- Honda / HMC 12.98
- Volkswagen / VWAGY 2.54
- Merc / MBGYY 5.33
- BMW / BMWYY 5.87
- Rivian / RIVN (N/A, losing money so no earnings)
Why in the world would anyone think TSLA is worth that multiple? The forward EPS is $2.58. That's Ford territory ($2.08 forward EPS). Toyota's is over $22.
I have no clue, and I don't trust that at all. I could see TSLA back at $190, maybe? It's at $167 today. Analysists are calling it "hold" for now. I suspect they are right.
At $140 a couple of weeks ago, it may have been a "buy" opportunity.
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I won't touch it. It's akin to a "meme stock", it has "Believers".
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I have no clue, and I don't trust that at all. I could see TSLA back at $190, maybe? It's at $167 today. Analysists are calling it "hold" for now. I suspect they are right.
At $140 a couple of weeks ago, it may have been a "buy" opportunity.
I can't see it at 190. I can't see it at 140, quite frankly. Which doesn't mean that it won't be there. It means that there are no fundamentals that I can see that make it worth that.
That's a higher forward PE ratio than AMZN, AAPL, and GOOG. Which are all tech companies.
The only reason you buy a stock with a forward PE of 62 is because you think their earnings are going to the moon. Which makes no sense for Tesla because they're no longer the only game in BEV town.
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(https://i.imgur.com/anyIBIg.png)
So not a huge difference like has been tossed around ( twice as heavy ! ).
500-600 lbs.
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https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/feds-concerned-some-of-teslas-autopilot-recall-was-opt-in-reversible/
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I saw my first Cybertruck today. It is uglier in person than in photos.
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Someone in my hood has one I just saw. I thought it looked like a prop from robocop. My daughter corrected me.
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They really are strikingly ugly. Almost intentionally comical.
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They really are strikingly ugly. Almost intentionally comical.
They look worse than an Aztek.
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Doubt this will embed but it's worth clicking... Chef Jet Tila's reaction to his first Cybertruck spotting in the wild.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C53tlzHuo81/
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Hmm. Guess we can embed Insta now. Cool.
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Doubt this will embed but it's worth clicking... Chef Jet Tila's reaction to his first Cybertruck spotting in the wild.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C53tlzHuo81/
Ha! Good stuff.
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The Biden administration has eased restrictions for its electric vehicle tax credit, giving automakers more time to adjust to sourcing requirements meant to reduce reliance on China for materials.
The Treasury Department announced Friday that it has finalized rules for a tax credit that serves to encourage sales of electric vehicles while taking aim at foreign entities of concern, such as China, Russia, North Korea, and Iran, and their grip on critical minerals and EV battery components.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-and-environment/2989672/treasury-eases-finalized-electric-vehicle-tax-credit-allow-chinese-graphite/ (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy-and-environment/2989672/treasury-eases-finalized-electric-vehicle-tax-credit-allow-chinese-graphite/)
But the rule determining which EVs are eligible for the tax credit exempts compliance with the restrictions for “certain impracticable-to-trace” battery materials — particularly graphite, the main component in a lithium-ion battery anode, and whose supply chain is heavily dominated by China — until 2027, giving automakers two more years than in the previous proposal.
The new rule also differs from the previous proposal through its adoption of a more stringent method of determining the percentage of materials that are compliant with the foreign entity of concern requirements. Auto manufacturers, however, are allowed to use a less strict process up until 2027, which would require a close look at the locations of where 50% or more of the critical minerals were extracted and processed.
“Today’s actions from Treasury and DOE provide clarity and certainty to an EV marketplace that’s rapidly growing,” John Podesta, senior White House climate adviser, said in a written statement. “The direction we’re headed is clear — toward a future where many more Americans drive an EV or a plug-in hybrid and where those vehicles are affordable and made here in America.”
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A man charges his AMC Gremlin in Seattle, Washington in 1973.
Many who grew up in the 70s remember this car as a lemon. But City Light built an electric prototype in 1973 that could be charged for 25 cents per hour — which sounded sweet during an oil crisis. It ran on six-volt batteries and topped out at 50 mph.
(https://i.imgur.com/BuEP4td.png)
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I think the hand wringing over EV sales and the environment will get a lot of play after the election, maybe some before.
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might depend more on the weather
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State-owned China Ocean Shipping Group (COSCO) unveiled the impressive Greenwater 01, an all-electric container ship that measures 119.8 meters in length, 23.6 meters in width, and 9 meters in depth. This groundbreaking vessel boasts a top speed of 19.4 km/h and an astounding battery capacity of over 50,000 kWh1.
What makes the Greenwater 01 truly remarkable is that it’s the world’s first 10,000-tonne pure electric container ship. Its innovative design includes battery containers similar to standard 20-foot containers, each offering 1,600 kWh of electricity. Depending on the journey, the number of battery packs can be adjusted by modifying the onboard battery containers. As a result, this electric giant is expected to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by a whopping 12.4 tonnes for every 100 nautical miles sailed.
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well, IF the electricity in the batteries was green
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Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, and Fisker Have Another No Good Very Bad Day (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-tesla-rivian-and-fisker-bad-quarter-2024/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR38BoW-k6t9b1TKPwMWH9GHSRiudLyPgNoNPPpjlnMjCWwhrUpTS_X0gMU_aem_ARI2Z5nXo2bBxZaoVVsI6QvgA0h6hBjrf-4Yy_1twqPdFtLrNx3rCCoeEzo8FxX2xpJMQ8giD00MMZUGarRt5aCK)
I think most or all here have viewed Musk as an oddball prone to saying and doing "odd things". But we accord credit where due, he has DONE, or caused to be done, some exceptional things.
What are the chances he manages to run Tesla "into the ground" in a few years? E.g., they start producing "junk cars" because employees no longer care, and the other automakers simply surpass them quite clearly and the novelty wears off. The other two are too small to matter really at this point.
This would leave GM et al. dominating the sector, with Volvo I think ready to step in with Chinese backing.
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dude needs to keep things a float until 2035 when Cali will need a shit ton of new cars
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The Cali mandate phases in starting in 2026, so it's about to hit soonish, in part.
I don't think the initial mandate is insuperable, though it will have an impact. The inclusion of plug in hybrids is something I had missed previously, and is a MAJOR dodge.
California's rules start in the 2026 model year and would cut smog-causing pollution from light-duty vehicles by 25% by 2037. They mandate 35% of new cars sold must be electric or plug-in hybrid by 2026. That proportion will rise to 68% by 2030 and 100% by 2035.
Car dealers sold 102,507 new light-duty EVs through the first three months of this year, accounting for 24.1 percent of all vehicles sold in the state over that time period. Those numbers are slight decreases from the fourth quarter of 2023, which saw 103,127 EVs sold and a 24.7 percent market share.
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so, this is on individual dealerships?
so, if a particular Mercedes dealership can't sell 35% EVs they are shut down?
say they sell 3 gassers this month. They then have to wait to sell another gasser until they sell an EV?
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Mercedes is going all-EV by 2030. F them.
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I know car companies have these "plans". Cadillac has already retrenched on gassers. Most others will follow.
Cadillac balks on 2030 EV plans, gas cars may remain an option (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/05/02/cadillac-balks-plans-all-e-2030-may-still-offer-gas-cars-number-of-years/)
My guess is the quota for EVs is by company, not dealership. And the "plug in hybrid" part is a major dodge.
I've mentioned before I'd look hard at a PHEV (plug in) if I owned a home in California. I think those COULD be the longer term primary "solution". Like everything, they have pros and cons relatives to EVs and ICEVs.
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Mercedes is going all-EV by 2030. F them.
well, that's their "plan"/statement today
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My guess is the quota for EVs is by company, not dealership. And the "plug in hybrid" part is a major dodge.
self reported
somehow tied to registrations/titles in the state?
they're gonna find some loopholes
have a rental company or corporate fleet register 1,000 EVs and then ship them to colorado to sell as "new"?
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Back when dealerships and companies were fussing with fuel economy standards (they still are), they'd put out an el cheapo small car to get their average up at a loss, so they could sell more large SUVs.
I need to look up the CA definition of "plug in hybrid". In theory, that could include a car with only a 110 v hookup and a very small battery.
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Automakers question feasibility of California 2035 EV sales mandate plan | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/automakers-question-feasibility-california-2035-ev-sales-mandate-plan-2024-02-28/#:~:text=They mandate 35% of new,% plug-in hybrid electric.)
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could cause an issue similar to insurance companies that just pull out of the state
I suppose there is some way to prevent folks from buying a one way train ticket to Vegas and buying a gasser
or having vehicles shipped from out of state dealerships
because of registrations
I just received an email from a Corvette dealer in Atlantic City that has a great sale
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You'd have to register it in California of course, the dealer would have to anyway. But a very lightly used car in California? Places like Nevada could buy new cars and sell them as used in CA.
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I suspect if this mandate doesn't get delayed car markers mostly will sell PHEVs, not pure EVs.
Those already are fairly practical now except they add cost.
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Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, and Fisker Have Another No Good Very Bad Day (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-tesla-rivian-and-fisker-bad-quarter-2024/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR38BoW-k6t9b1TKPwMWH9GHSRiudLyPgNoNPPpjlnMjCWwhrUpTS_X0gMU_aem_ARI2Z5nXo2bBxZaoVVsI6QvgA0h6hBjrf-4Yy_1twqPdFtLrNx3rCCoeEzo8FxX2xpJMQ8giD00MMZUGarRt5aCK)
I think most or all here have viewed Musk as an oddball prone to saying and doing "odd things". But we accord credit where due, he has DONE, or caused to be done, some exceptional things.
What are the chances he manages to run Tesla "into the ground" in a few years? E.g., they start producing "junk cars" because employees no longer care, and the other automakers simply surpass them quite clearly and the novelty wears off. The other two are too small to matter really at this point.
This would leave GM et al. dominating the sector, with Volvo I think ready to step in with Chinese backing.
I've said it for years. Tesla needs to make sure they don't squander their first-mover advantage. If they don't, the market cap is going to go into the toilet and they'll be an acquisition target. (Granted, their market cap is insane and they're valued like a tech growth unicorn stock right now, so it would take a MAJOR drop.)
The were the only real game in town for a while. Now everyone else is coming to the party so they have to actually compete as a real automaker. It remains to be seen whether they can pull it off.
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General Motors ending Chevrolet Malibu manufacturing | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/gm-ending-production-chevrolet-malibu)
Ineresting.
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jeez, so the sedan option just got smaller than a little Malibu
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Sedans aren't selling well, any of them. SUVs of all sizes are. I had to pay list for mine, which I've never done before.
Maybe I didn't have to, it seemed like I did.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ps24AQ1.png)
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ROI Calculator - Electric Vehicle Charging from EnviroSpark (envirosparkenergy.com) (https://envirosparkenergy.com/roi-calculator/#:~:text=average charging price of %240.48%2FkWh)
- average charging price of $0.48/kWh
These are the units we have on site here, and I think Kroger has them locally. As I keep posting, this is NOT a good deal for an EV, at all. If we use even 35 kWhr per hundred miles, which is the most efficient figure I've seen for a Tesla 3, this would be $12 per hundred miles.
Our small SUV hybrid will easily do 32 mpg at about $3.50 per gallon, so it's cheaper to drive here anyway. I wonder how many EV first time owners understand this, and how many decide it's not worth it and tell neighbors etc.
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ROI Calculator - Electric Vehicle Charging from EnviroSpark (envirosparkenergy.com) (https://envirosparkenergy.com/roi-calculator/#:~:text=average charging price of %240.48%2FkWh)
- [color=var(--ast-global-color-2)]average charging price of $0.48/kWh[/font][/size][/color]
These are the units we have on site here, and I think Kroger has them locally. As I keep posting, this is NOT a good deal for an EV, at all. If we use even 35 kWhr per hundred miles, which is the most efficient figure I've seen for a Tesla 3, this would be $12 per hundred miles.
Our small SUV hybrid will easily do 32 mpg at about $3.50 per gallon, so it's cheaper to drive here anyway. I wonder how many EV first time owners understand this, and how many decide it's not worth it and tell neighbors etc.
They won't admit it and they will still drink the expensive Kool-Aid.
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Obviously, charging at home is a third of that price (here), so it works. And some workplaces etc. offer free charging, for now.
But, for me, it's a nonstarter.
My neighbor thought our chargers were free and was surprised when I told him otherwise.
I see relatively little about this on line, which is curious. I think it's a MAJOR deal for many.
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My neighbor thought our chargers were free and was surprised when I told him otherwise.
should have kept your mouth shut. Let him buy an EV and find out.
it's expensive to save the world, but it's worth it.
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He doesn't drive much, and already bought a 7 year old Lexus, which is a decent car for him.
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I wonder how many EV first time owners understand this, and how many decide it's not worth it and tell neighbors etc.
I'm pretty sure this is not some big secret...
https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/surveys/california-vehicle-survey/housing-type-pev-ownership
This visualization compares the housing types of plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) owners and non-plug-in electric vehicle (non-PEV) owners from the California Vehicle Survey (CVS), as well as with American Community Survey (ACS) data, a statewide demographic profile conducted annually by the U.S. Census, to show how representative these responses are of the overall households in California. The CVS data show that 79 percent of PEV owners live in unattached single family houses, whereas the ACS shows that 58 percent of households statewide live in unattached single family homes, an important distinction, as these households have a greater ability to install charging equipment.
So at least in CA, it's a 4:1 gap between people who buy an EV that live in an unattached single family house, and ostensibly have home charging capability, vs who don't. But looking at the graph it looks like about another 8% of BEV owners live in an attached single family house, which might also have charging capability. Which would bring it closer to an 8:1 gap.
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In our condo, I see about 6 full EVs and 2-3 more plug ins. They often charge on site. We have 125 units, so probably 200 vehicles, so it's a low percentage. But I do wonder if they understand the deal.
The charging rate here could well be under 48 cents.
My step son rented a Tesla Y to drive to Cincinnati and when we looked at how much he paid to charge, it was unimpressive, he was surprised. And he stopped three times to charge it for a 440 mile trip, but he drives fast, like 90-100. He drove us back from Orlando in my GTI and was running over 100 much of the way.
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But I do wonder if they understand the deal.
They all understand the deal. The question was whether they understood it before they bought one :57:
It wouldn't surprise me if there's a percentage of EV owners who bought an EV not really considering "how do I charge this sucker"? There are morons everywhere.
It also wouldn't surprise me if there's a percentage of EV owners who bought an EV for the environmental / political / virtue signaling aspect of it even though they don't have home charging but considered it still worth it.
But from that link, it seems ~87% of California EV owners live in either an unattached or attached single family home, a much higher percentage than the demographics of Californians in general, so it seems like most buyers know what they're getting into.
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I think folks who rent are broadly less affluent with less dispoasble income than those who own or live in a single family home.
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I think folks who rent are broadly less affluent with less dispoasble income than those who own or live in a single family home.
That is true.
But I'll say here in Southern California, I've seen some luxurious cars parked in the parking lots at apartment complexes. :57:
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watch it
my car is worth half of my house
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watch it
my car is worth half of my house
No argument with you. You own the house, right?
I would argue that for a lot of renters, having an expensive car is a signal of misplaced priorities, because saving towards home ownership and having a cheaper car would be a better use of their money.
If you own your house, and you have enough left over for a sporty car, then you do you.
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https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-exec-quits-linkedin-post
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(https://i.imgur.com/R87wPo3.png)
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Our hybrid has enough juice to go about 100 feet after being started. It's a bit weird at first, you start it and back out with battery and no noise, then after a short while the engine cuts on. It gets better mpg around town or in the mountains than on a freeway.
If I read the CA mandate correctly, the middle option is viable after 2035, and I think the middle option is a good one for most folks who might want an EV. You get about 35 miles of all electric range with it.
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Hyundai Motor Global EV Wholesale Sales Decreased Again In April 2024 (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/719711/hyundai-global-ev-wholesale-sales-april2024/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1djEdGtJJDi-iMsJUqUC38CGkHQp3OwAfZ2W8JJQarwJ6pTuBDGqhUdB0_aem_AXb54cYQrzeij3943F1YaLHnuLMtTc5OquqeodSujyDnIEDokq-SyMPq5uGJkWYLbSDQkf7LiIUMegPnO5RXy7fw)
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I looked further into the CA mandate for 2035 and PHEVs are indeed included, so that's a huge dodge around having every new car being magically "nonpolluting" or whatever they claim. I didn't see where it was defined, so in theory, a car with a small battery like ours and a 110 v plug in to "charge it" would qualify, even if it only goes 100 feet on battery power. It's a plug in, or capable of being plugged in, though almost no one would bother.
Apparently most folks with real PHEVs rarely plug in now, which is a bit odd.
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most folks are odd
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California wants to pay you $400 for ‘Road Charge' program
It's part of a statewide pilot program to test out a new funding scheme for road repairs and maintenance as fewer Californians pay the gasoline tax at the pump.
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/how-to-participate-california-road-charge-pilot/3413263/ (https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/how-to-participate-california-road-charge-pilot/3413263/)
Here’s how California Road Charge works
Just like Californians pay their gas or electric bills based on their usage, a road charge program will issue a fee to each driver based on how many miles driven per month.
Participants can sign up here between May and June by filling out a questionnaire here.
Once 800 participants are selected throughout the state, they will have to enroll through the link provided by the state.
After participants drive as they normally do from August 2024 to January 2025, they will pay monthly Road Charge payments online.
Once all required activities, including surveys, throughout the pilot are complete, drivers can earn up to $400 with the first $100 being distributed in September 2024 and the rest in February 2025.
One tax after another?
While the state argues EV owners still pay far less than gas car owners for car maintenance and energy costs, some EV drivers remain skeptical about the idea.
“One tax after another, it’s just never going to end,” Howard Alonzo, an electric car owner, said. :
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GM Chevy Equinox EV goes on sale (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/22/gm-chevy-equinox-ev.html)
“This is about $27,500 [including up to $7,500 in federal incentives] for an over 300-mile range car, which is right in the heart of everything.”
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GM Chevy Equinox EV goes on sale (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/22/gm-chevy-equinox-ev.html)
“This is about $27,500 [including up to $7,500 in federal incentives] for an over 300-mile range car, which is right in the heart of everything.”
I'm so glad I get to support well-to-do people in their effort to obtain an EV...
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There are income limits on the subsidy at least. My primary complaint however has no apparent solution.
I guess they might subsidize public charging rate someday.
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(https://i.imgur.com/R87wPo3.png)
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b4a9e10aed9c5a590647536b2e2ae3ed)
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We recently bought a hybrid, the "HEV" above. I don't see anything inherently wrong with them.
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There are income limits on the subsidy at least. My primary complaint however has no apparent solution.
I guess they might subsidize public charging rate someday.
My trust fund SIL in Bel Air got the $7,500.00. Maybe not much income, but she is wealthy ($60 Million or so).
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:o
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You may qualify for a credit up to $7,500 under Internal Revenue Code Section 30D if you buy a new, qualified plug-in EV or fuel cell electric vehicle (FCV). The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 changed the rules for this credit for vehicles purchased from 2023 to 2032.
The credit is available to individuals and their businesses.
To qualify, you must:
- Buy it for your own use, not for resale
- Use it primarily in the U.S.
In addition, your modified adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed:
- $300,000 for married couples filing jointly or a surviving spouse
- $225,000 for heads of households
- $150,000 for all other filers
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I looked pretty hard at the math recently as we were in the market. I got the hybrid.
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In addition, your modified adjusted gross income (AGI) may not exceed:
- $300,000 for married couples filing jointly or a surviving spouse
- $225,000 for heads of households
- $150,000 for all other filers
Again, I'm thrilled to be helping people that make more money than I do.
Of course, in 2020, my trust fund SIL voted for... you know.
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Obviously, it's not really about helping buyers as much as helping the industry. I can appreciate AT TIMES government may need to assist some nascent industry. I'd note that this assistance often comes with long strings and a lot of paperwork, and at times their assistance is unneeded. But government now is so deep into our economy, this sort of thing is pretty routine. We're dumping billions into the chip industry, not to mention wind and solar etc.
I keep seeing claims we have a subsidy for the oil industry, but from what I can discern, that is not technically correct, they do get some normal tax credits and allowances.
One of the biggest effective subsidies may be in the health care arena.
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I could see something like this one for us.
Used 2020 Volvo XC90 Hybrid T8 Inscription 6 Passenger For Sale $43,998 | Cars.com (https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/db31b265-75d2-4697-9b61-18e8bd2a5c8d/?attribution_type=se_rnp)
Or this one, a little smaller.
Used 2021 Volvo XC60 Recharge Plug-In Hybrid T8 Inscription Expression For Sale $34,999 | Cars.com (https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/cbb42936-7c3b-4cf9-81aa-7db46034eff3/)
Not sure I like the plug-in idea.
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As you can plug in at home, I think it's a decent concept. I lean to think "we" are going to plug in hybrids down the road, not full EVs. The Cali mandate includes them, so that is their dodge if needed.
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A friend of mine recently tried a rental experience with an EV. Did not go particularly well. There’s just a lot of little nits and annoyances you have to deal with.
And you always have to keep a little bit in your mind how much charge you have and where you can recharge. That experiance makes you really appreciate gas pumps.
A coworker has a plug in hybrid and seems to like it. Most of the driving is off the charge, assuming you don’t forget to plug in. Seems like a higher-utility experience at the moment.
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Were I working in California and owned my home, I'd be quite interested in a PHEV (plug in). They usually have more power than the pure ICE or even hybrid version. Assuming my job was 15 miles from home, I could get by most of the time on pure electric, recharge at home which is cheaper than gas, and probably be able to charge at some workplaces.
The downsides is I would need to remember to plug it in at home, even using 220v would be fine, and the battery might well be down to ~50% after 10-12 years.
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I have room on my panel to add a 220 V circuit. But do you need that for a plug-in hybrid?
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No, you can use 110 v on a PHEV.* They only have 30-35 miles of range, and 110v will charge at 3-4 miles per hour of charging. So, ten hours would do it, less if not fully discharged.
*This is my assumption, I would check on it with the vehicle of interest.
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I have room on my panel to add a 220 V circuit. But do you need that for a plug-in hybrid?
No. Typical charge on 110V is about 3-4 miles of range per hour. If your PHEV has say 40 miles of range, you should get roughly a full charge overnight. And if you don't on some random night due to circumstances, it's a hybrid so there's no range anxiety.
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The Equinox EV is launching with higher-priced models that start at roughly $43,000 to $51,100 (without any incentives). The entry-level Equinox LT model, starting at about $35,000, is expected later this year.
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No. Typical charge on 110V is about 3-4 miles of range per hour. If your PHEV has say 40 miles of range, you should get roughly a full charge overnight. And if you don't on some random night due to circumstances, it's a hybrid so there's no range anxiety.
Does not seem remotely close to worth it.
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No. Typical charge on 110V is about 3-4 miles of range per hour. If your PHEV has say 40 miles of range, you should get roughly a full charge overnight. And if you don't on some random night due to circumstances, it's a hybrid so there's no range anxiety.
I'm a somewhat experienced residential electrician but this might be more your area:
I've seen where they can be charged with 120V or 240V with the 240V charging quicker.
Aside from speed of charge, would there be any differences worth noting?
- Would the cost be the same? I'm guessing it would because a KW is a KW and whether you charge in eight hours at 120V or two hours at 240V you'd need the same total but am I missing anything? Maybe if you had peak/off peak rates you could more easily manipulate that with a 240V charger but that is mostly not a residential thing.
- Is one better for the long-term health and life of the batteries?
- Anything else?
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I'm a somewhat experienced residential electrician but this might be more your area:
I've seen where they can be charged with 120V or 240V with the 240V charging quicker.
Aside from speed of charge, would there be any differences worth noting?
- Would the cost be the same? I'm guessing it would because a KW is a KW and whether you charge in eight hours at 120V or two hours at 240V you'd need the same total but am I missing anything? Maybe if you had peak/off peak rates you could more easily manipulate that with a 240V charger but that is mostly not a residential thing.
- Is one better for the long-term health and life of the batteries?
- Anything else?
Yep. Don't buy a plug-in car. :)
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I'm a somewhat experienced residential electrician but this might be more your area:
I've seen where they can be charged with 120V or 240V with the 240V charging quicker.
Aside from speed of charge, would there be any differences worth noting?
- Would the cost be the same? I'm guessing it would because a KW is a KW and whether you charge in eight hours at 120V or two hours at 240V you'd need the same total but am I missing anything? Maybe if you had peak/off peak rates you could more easily manipulate that with a 240V charger but that is mostly not a residential thing.
- Is one better for the long-term health and life of the batteries?
- Anything else?
I suppose the electrical components would be optimized toward one or the other, so there could be inefficiencies like impedance mismatching and additional line losses induced by the non-optimal method. Of course, some of this could be mitigated with computerization and smart electronics along the electrical charging path that would adjust for the differences.
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I suppose the electrical components would be optimized toward one or the other, so there could be inefficiencies like impedance mismatching and additional line losses induced by the non-optimal method. Of course, some of this could be mitigated with computerization and smart electronics along the electrical charging path that would adjust for the differences.
See, this is why I asked the engineers here. As a "somewhat experienced residential electrician" I can easily run the line and install the plug for either 120V or 240V but this stuff is beyond what I've ever needed to know. I would want to know that if I had a PHEV because I think it would make a material difference over the life of the car. Ie, it probably isn't material for a single charge where the cost is going to be minimal:
Per Kelly Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/):
Charging a "large battery" costs:
- $11.55 in Idaho (cheapest state unless I missed one)
- $15.25 in Texas where @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) lives
- $15.83 in Florida where @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) lives
- $15.98 in Illinois where @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) and @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) are from
- $16.53 US Average
- $16.67 in Ohio where I live
- $31.55 in California where @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) lives
- $33.41 in Rhode Island (most expensive state unless I missed one)
For a single charge I would guess that the efficiency differences are more-or-less nominal. Even a 10% penalty in Rhode Island is only going to alter your cost by around $3.34. However, if you own this car for 10 years and charge it around twice a week that is pushing 1,000 charges so that 10% difference would be around a thousand dollars in Idaho, around $1,500-$1,700 in Texas/Florida/Illinois/Ohio, and north of $3,000 in places like California and Rhode Island.
Yep. Don't buy a plug-in car. :)
LoL, I get the sentiment. OTOH, I think that the PHEV has a lot more short-term potential than straight up electric.
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A PHEV could be "worth it" in some situations, probably not most. They care a $5-7K upcharge over an equivalent regular hybrid. They do usually offer more power/acceleration.
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Charging a PHEV all the way is only about a kWhr. If you charge at home, it's minimal in terms of cost, average of 16 cents. Say you drive 15 miles to work, and then 15 home, that costs you 15 cents in electricity, call it 32 cents in CA. An equivalent hybrid would get you there and back with a gallon of gas, probably less, so call it $3.50-$4.00 in CA.
You might use it on trips 3-4 times a year where the gas mileage would be about what the hybrid gets. So, you drive 30 miles to work and back, 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, that's 7,200 miles which might cost you 200 gallons of gas with a hybrid or $900 (in CA) at $4.50.
The electricity costs in CA would be about $80. Assume you save $800 a year over 6-7 years you about cover the nut. Or you could buy a hybrid and put the extra $6 K in some CD at 5% interest.
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Does not seem remotely close to worth it.
Well if you rarely drive more than 40 miles a day, it can be.
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I'm a somewhat experienced residential electrician but this might be more your area:
I've seen where they can be charged with 120V or 240V with the 240V charging quicker.
Aside from speed of charge, would there be any differences worth noting?
- Would the cost be the same? I'm guessing it would because a KW is a KW and whether you charge in eight hours at 120V or two hours at 240V you'd need the same total but am I missing anything? Maybe if you had peak/off peak rates you could more easily manipulate that with a 240V charger but that is mostly not a residential thing.
- Is one better for the long-term health and life of the batteries?
- Anything else?
Slower charge rates are generally better for the batteries.
I understand that with the longer range EVs, many offer the ability to schedule your charging, i.e. you plug in when you get home for the day and it shows down your charge rate to be ready at say 7AM rather than charging as far as it can.
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I think it's close to worth it, but it depends on one's driving habits and where one lives, a lot.
We don't drive much in a year, maybe 7,000 miles, so for us, the cost of fuel is not a big deal. And we're getting around 33 mpg combined using regular which costs about $3.20 here at Costco, a bit under $700 a year for us with a small "SUV". There is a plug in hybrid of the same model available in a few states (not mine) that costs about $6 K extra if you can find one.
The rather amazing thing to me is that PHEVs qualify under the 2035 CA mandate.
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(https://i.imgur.com/cPJtYU3.png)
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Not electric, but vehicle-related: while in LA, I saw a bright orange Challenger that looked like the General Lee from the Dukes of Hazzard, but instead of a 01 on the side, it had a 09 and "Joe Cool" instead of "General Lee."
Very cool Bengals fan.
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I "think" the Cali 2035 mandate may survive because of the PHEVs. Of course, they may well modify or delay it further. Sales there in 2035 might end up being 2/3rds PHEVs and 1/3rd EVs. As I have tried to lay out above, that might not be nearly as ridiculous as I had thought.
PHEVs in CA by 2035 might well be something a lot of new car purchasers would prefer once folks understand them better.
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Cincy,
Is there a "free" 110 outlet in your parking garage that you use?
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I have not seen one, not near where we park. There could be one up front of the building, I have not looked.
Someone here has a PHEV Jeep, which I had not even known was available, I see it plugged in at times.
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so, you have a plug-in vehicle that you don't plug in?
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I never said we have a PHEV because we don't. We have a standard hybrid. I explained why I went that way a while back.
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ahhh
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I never said we have a PHEV because we don't. We have a standard hybrid. I explained why I went that way a while back.
That's what I would do. Maybe.
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As I've noted before, with Hyundai, and some other makes, the hybrid has more horsepower and torque. The PHEV version has even more.
I thought the base Tucson was a bit down on power, the hybrid is acceptable. It goes when you need it.
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The Chevrolet Silverado EV RST Is the New Electric Pickup Leader (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a60872392/2024-chevrolet-silverado-ev-rst-first-drive-review/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2lyA2WblVQfUU3IkG8OXzvuyAw3jKEwYcL9g6UCAVhuSJvcge13SwS460_aem_AULnBjFGgn1mKTR1fy--Me6SlUXzOw5WMe1mwa0tofmCYzupnsrtSaB2O0FHqIMv1OVIwWySBEUEeaHAFTZHqiEQ)
The Silverado EV RST is the fully-loaded model with every optional add-on thrown in from the head-up display to a spray on bedliner, to panoramic roof. All that will cost you $96,495, including the destination charge. That’s more expensive, than the fanciest version of the conventional Silverado, but in the same ballpark as other top-spec EV pickups.
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That heavy pickup needs around 50 kWhr per hundred miles. Once again, charging away from home won't be very appealing, even at 30 cents per kWhr = $15 per hundred miles. The ICE Diesel, which is a pretty nice option (standard really) is rated at 22 mpg highway, so about 5 gallons of gas maybe less which is close to the same.
And the 30 cents is very low end.
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The difference in charging from 110V via a 15 amp circuit and a 230V 30-50 amp circuit is significant.
Back of the napkin, 110V at 15 amps is about 1650 watts, or 1.65 KW. The max output you can get on 110V is 20 amp, but you'd need a special plug (and a 20 amp circuit breaker). So if you have a special 20 amp 110V plug, you could maybe squeeze 2.2KW from a regular 110V plug.
For 220V, you could get 6,600 watts at 30 amp, or 11,000 watts at 50 amp. So ~3x the power on the low side (6.6 vs 1.65 kw) and 5x on the high side.
These are general numbers, in real world the voltages vary from 110-120V usually, and 220-240V. But the watts will usually be about the same.
Level 2 charging is not "fast charging" by any means. I don't think there would be any harm in charging at 220V vs 110V, they are both relatively slow. The biggest difference is that most 110V circuits are wired with either #14 AWG or #12 AWG, whereas most 230V circuits would be wired with #10AWG or smaller (#10 AWG is good for 30 amps depending on the distance). The smaller the AWG gauge, the bigger the wire. So a bigger wire carrying less current will always have less resistance. Not sure there would be any big difference in terms of power loss due to resistance, but overtime it could add up.
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Given that the average EV has about a 60-80 KWHr battery, by using the slow charger let's peg the power in at 2kwHr.
60 kwhr / 2 kwhr = 30 hrs to charge that bad boy.
60 kwHr / 8 kwHr = 7.5 hrs to charge that battery. Or 4 times faster.
Level 3 charging is DC fast charging, a whole 'nother level of power and you'd need a special charger for that and special infrastructure because they can do hundreds of KW. This is the level that you can actually degrade a battery if done often enough.
FYI, most battery management systems will only "fast" charge the battery from ~20% to ~80%. Before that, or after that, it will reduce the input as to not damage the battery. So even when people use a L3 charger, they're not going from some low charge to a full charge. As I recall, most are charging up to 80%, which is why they can charge some of the newer EV's in about 15-20 minutes.
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The other thing with Level 1 and Level 2 is you can actually pre-condition the climate of your car so that for instance on a cold day, you can program it to heat up the cabin while it's on "shore power" so that you're not draining your battery once you get on the road. Not sure if you can do that with a L1 charger, since it's only ~2KW worth of power. Any heat (or air conditioning) you put into the cabin would probably have a net deficit compared to what is being inputted via the power cord.
L2 charger would be able to handle this no problem.
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Most EVs use a heat pump for heating (and cooling) now, or so I have read. Some recommend using the heated seats and steering wheel instead.
Heated seats are nice, but I doubt they would replace cabin heating on a cold day.
The guideline I've seen is that 110v is good for 3-4 miles or range for each hour of charging, and 220v basically doubles that.
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hah, I've heard of EV owners up here in the great white north wearing coats, gloves, and caps to extend their range in cold weather
:57:
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@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) 110V is only truly suitable for PHEV. BEV really needs a 220V L2 charger for most people.
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https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/
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@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) 110V is only truly suitable for PHEV. BEV really needs a 220V L2 charger for most people.
My FIL only charges his BEV ( Chevy Bolt) via a 110v plug.
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My FIL only charges his BEV ( Chevy Bolt) via a 110v plug.
How much does he drive on a weekly basis? If it's low enough, you can do 110V in a BEV. I think "most" BEV owners would prefer installing a 220V charger if for no other reason than never worrying about range anxiety on a heavy driving week.
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He doesn’t drive anymore, but when he did I’d say he probably drove about 100-200 miles per week. He’d just plug it in every 2-3 days and let it charge overnight. Sometimes he would leave it plugged in for 1-2 days at a time. He was under the mistaken belief that if he charged it at L2 it would degrade the battery.
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At 3-4 miles of range per hour at 110v, he probably was fine. The Bolt has a fair bit of range. He could drive an entire week on a single charge easily, and then leave it plugged in for 2-3 days and be fully recharged.
A PHEV should do fine on 110v.
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My Benz does fantastic on 12 volts.
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Tesla Owners Get Only 64% Of EPA Range After Just Three Years: Study (Updated) (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/720899/tesla-64-epa-max-range/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0pyrubSoYu2SoUhaFyO0OvK-S_UuAAF0Wf4OPhZ2DVNi9MnJv2N3wB-6U_aem_Ad9EAAq5___Qpa0atumQcMsxpufBOKYzukbwfM27eDC9nKF3uYafiJHxTPa1OTT1sl5tjI79ZQdJcm9ivnC8TZ8Q)
And EPA estimated range is also optimistic. This is sounds pretty bad, awful really, but it isn't the whole truth.
(https://i.imgur.com/kCCUAdn.png)
It's important to point out that the Teslas observed in Recurrent's study never actually appear to hit the advertised EPA range. Even at 0 miles, the cars only achieve between approximately 70% and 72.5% of their advertised EPA range. That means a zero-mile 2023 Tesla Model 3 Performance, rated by the EPA as having 315 miles of range, may be observed by Recurrent as achieving around 230 miles on a single charge based on the above charts.
This isn't a problem unique to Tesla. As Recurrent says, "The basic EPA testing protocol (https://insideevs.com/news/720627/tesla-model3-performance-303-miles-epa-range/) gets it wrong for all EVs." It doesn't factor in temperature changes or driving above 60 miles per hour, plus it allows for manufacturer adjustments.
The relevant factor to consider here is the delta between the range achieved by a new car with a fresh battery and how much range it still has after three years, agnostic of overall vehicle mileage as this point isn't plotted in the above charts. This figure appears to be between 6% and 8.5% before leveling off at the three-year mark—not too shabby, if you ask us.
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but it isn't the whole truth.
Won't stop some people who were already anti-EV from making the claim that the battery degrades by 1/3 in the first 3 years, because they only read the clickbait headline and didn't read the article.
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I read it that way at first, and thought "This isn't consistent with other studies", so I read the whole thing. And yes, it will get posted around for effect.
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The $35,000 Kia EV3 Is The Electric Car America Has Been Waiting For (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/720934/kia-ev3-why-it-matters/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1Bcljv289stazHKekK9IyGHAU4lZsSQBJ4efLmmqOYRRz97XPM_aUDWlQ_aem_Ad94EgPuq5NwmTIWuLYhwOyOD-_EuM1SMOCw2MQsUbcMpTDjQlSQITiPIPx0teLcpH4sP4NMRVVjBfni4HyiZe5X)
But it’s not all sunshine and rainbows, folks. The Volvo EX30, another promising $35,000 entrant, was supposed to hit U.S. shores this year. President Joe Biden’s new tariffs on Chinese EVs (https://insideevs.com/news/719530/biden-chinese-ev-tariff/) could dash those plans, as the EX30 is built in China. Not to mention, those tariffs will keep out inexpensive Chinese offerings like the BYD Seagull, which will be sold in Europe (https://insideevs.com/news/720912/cheap-byd-seagull-ev-is-coming-for-europe/) for under $21,500.
For years, people expected industry leader Tesla to come out with an entry-level EV below the Model 3. Those plans have been all over the place lately (https://insideevs.com/news/715367/tesla-cheap-ev-canceled/), but last we checked a cheaper Tesla is planned for next year sometime. We’ll have to see how that pans out.
We won't know precisely how good a deal the EV3 is until we learn more about its EPA-estimated range and pricing. On paper, the baby EV seems to be a standout option for people who want a small, appealing electric crossover that doesn’t break the bank. And it once again solidifies Kia and parent company Hyundai as the carmakers to watch during the EV transition.
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This Kia looks to be about the size of my Tucson. At $35 K, it probably lacks some of the features the Tucson has, but OK fine. The size and cost look to be about right, especially if the $7500 credit could be applied by leasing it. I wonder how much leasing will be. A three year old EV might well lack appeal.
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This Kia looks to be about the size of my Tucson. At $35 K, it probably lacks some of the features the Tucson has, but OK fine. The size and cost look to be about right, especially if the $7500 credit could be applied by leasing it. I wonder how much leasing will be. A three year old EV might well lack appeal.
Cap cost reduction. No chance.
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The battery in our golf cart is about 60 percent of what it was 3 years ago. Big regret.
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my 2002 Yamaha gasser has probably 1000 4-hour 18 hole rounds so far.
I've replaced the starter battery 4 times.
it just sips gas and I've yet to touch the 4-stroke engine.
Purred like a kitten yesterday
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2026 Chevrolet Bolt EUV: Everything We Know (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/reviews/721006/chevrolet-bolt-everything-we-know/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2LUwSLzQl_WwpHB6bmJK5mkKeAp7G3loBkkGvn0o5hGEwYcPE2Q7JfBo0_aem_AVRRHaiuY58oaesrZqiQJXt5sMJD34OAWxTy5OON8GGWk9c6D75DBtA4A3wd1nvvjYMLA7zsUzUtim3NNIX3NF1h)
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it's not even 2025
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ABC article explaining why EVs are so much lower emissions than petrol vehicles. Even when EVs are built with fossil energy and powered by fossil electricity
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-cars-and-petrol-cars/103746132?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3BRHgVCiExaDwRPDRmODUJFEFUjKb3FmjvOkWFcZjCO6gnFEyO71yvVEc_aem_Ab3YHiMR_V8Aw-bESRoHbLkoqks6zIY2Ovd5IP5UrcGznylVVwRkXGJrXpI9gh5yckmyYMyG0qbTuvq8N9LEimAk (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-cars-and-petrol-cars/103746132?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR3BRHgVCiExaDwRPDRmODUJFEFUjKb3FmjvOkWFcZjCO6gnFEyO71yvVEc_aem_Ab3YHiMR_V8Aw-bESRoHbLkoqks6zIY2Ovd5IP5UrcGznylVVwRkXGJrXpI9gh5yckmyYMyG0qbTuvq8N9LEimAk)
(https://i.imgur.com/FVyPg97.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/sEdd6PN.png)
Battery Fails.
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The battery failure rates reported are pretty low, and at rather high mileage with obvious exceptions.
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@OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) here's an in depth article about battery swapping that I think you'll enjoy.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/27/data-on-battery-swapping-for-heavy-and-light-vehicles-is-nuanced/
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See, this is why I asked the engineers here. As a "somewhat experienced residential electrician" I can easily run the line and install the plug for either 120V or 240V but this stuff is beyond what I've ever needed to know. I would want to know that if I had a PHEV because I think it would make a material difference over the life of the car. Ie, it probably isn't material for a single charge where the cost is going to be minimal:
Per Kelly Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/):
Charging a "large battery" costs:
- $11.55 in Idaho (cheapest state unless I missed one)
- $15.25 in Texas where @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) lives
- $15.83 in Florida where @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) lives
- $15.98 in Illinois where @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) and @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) are from
- $16.53 US Average
- $16.67 in Ohio where I live
- $31.55 in California where @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) lives
- $33.41 in Rhode Island (most expensive state unless I missed one)
That's not bad but how long to charge on average?
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That's not bad but how long to charge on average?
There's no real "average". Most users only charge to 80% on a regular basis, but how quickly you charge depends on what sort of electrical service is running. There are a couple of ranges though:
- Level 1 (110V): You will generally get 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging. This *might* be ok for some--maybe even a majority of--EV users, since you will have overnight each night and probably extended time on weekends to charge. But I would think that very few would consider this an optimal charging solution.
- Level 2 (240V): From googling, the range of charge speeds depends on the amperage your panel can support, but I see ranges of 14-35 miles of range added per hour of charging. This is fast enough for an average user that drives pretty high mileage daily, as most will be able to "fully"--i.e. to 80%--charge overnight.
- DC Fast Chargers (150-350 kW): These are the Tesla "Superchargers" and the like--commercial installations. For the cars which support 350 kW charging, you can reportedly go from 10% to 80% charge in under 18 minutes (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/fastest-charging-electric-vehicles#:~:text=The Kia EV6 and its,in less than 18 minutes.).
IMHO most BEV owners will bite the bullet and install a L2 charger in their garage. However it wouldn't surprise me if a sizeable proportion of them could probably "get away with" 110V charging and install the L2 charger largely due to range anxiety. I think a lot of people when considering an EV overestimate their driving habits and want to size their charger for the exceptional cases, not their normal daily driving.
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This is why I'm more a fan of PHEVs than BEVs, most of us drive fewer than 30 miles in a day, and a PHEV works as a BEV in those cases.
Would I buy one here? Nope.
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@OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) here's an in depth article about battery swapping that I think you'll enjoy.
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/27/data-on-battery-swapping-for-heavy-and-light-vehicles-is-nuanced/
Thanks.
It may be a case in which if/when enough fleet vehicles do it, it may be a tipping point for cars in general.
It also would help with a potential problem of abandoned gas stations.
As far as uniformity of battery, I don't see why the current car classes can't all just use the same battery in each group. That would spur things along, but it'd be far in the future, I assume.
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Thanks.
It may be a case in which if/when enough fleet vehicles do it, it may be a tipping point for cars in general.
It also would help with a potential problem of abandoned gas stations.
As far as uniformity of battery, I don't see why the current car classes can't all just use the same battery in each group. That would spur things along, but it'd be far in the future, I assume.
Yeah, I don't think battery swaps are impossible, I think they're impractical. IMHO the engineering aspect I brought up previously is one area the article didn't cover--a car has to be designed very differently to do battery swaps than they do it today. That means more weight as you don't rely on the battery being built into the frame, which is an issue.
I think the bigger issues are logistical, which the article goes into in detail.
Per your last point, the problem with uniform batteries is twofold:
- EV makers are trying to make battery cell type / chemistry / etc a competitive differentiator. To all agree on a single battery pack type would stifle that competitive aspect of EV makers.
- To standardize on a single battery type also stifles battery innovation. As we often see with anything that is standardized, changing standards is a long and drawn-out process that requires a lot of collective consensus-reaching. If battery pack composition can't really be changed on faster than a 5-year or so cadence because it takes that long to achieve agreement on what the "new" pack should be, you miss out on all the innovation that these companies will do over that time.
However, it may be the case that battery swaps are the "killer app" so to speak for anyone who lives in a place where they can't charge an EV at their place of residence. It might help address both the time of charging issue as well as the cost of charging outside the home issue that @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) is hung up on.
I personally don't really think it'll happen. I think it's more likely that we'll see much a more robust charging infrastructure develop over the next decade, and that we won't see mainstream battery swapping arrive in that timeframe. And once we have a robust charging infrastructure, we won't need battery swapping. But like the author, if I'm proven wrong, I'll admit it. It's no hill to die on for me.
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Fair points.
#1 - eventually, someone will "win" and be the major producer of the most-used type (not best, just most-used). They'll be the most popular for a time and that winning company will fight to extend that time for as many years/decades as they can.
#2 - once something is the standard and "good enough" they stifle innovation anyway, as they do now with all things. Once a company "wins," they have no motive to change the status quo.
I'm just looking down the road and figuring companies will do what they always do.
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Cars and trucks inherently have to have different battery packs, at minimum because they come in such different sizes. Maybe government could force the issue and only "allow" say five or six different battery packs. So, then the "filling station" has to have 5-6 times however many on hand, most of which are being charged, and some of which are charged and ready to go. That could mean 60 packs or more?
Then you have to have common connections of course. And those connections conduct a lot of current and need to be pretty well shielded. The packs are quite heavy of course, so they'd also need some kind of very heavy release and secure brackets.
I suspect inductive charging would be more practicable, even though that too has many challenges.
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Then another issue is how battery technology is progressing, and will progress for some time, no doubt more slowly as things get pretty good. But at some point, the "new" kind will be attractive, just as some new automotive engine comes out. Then you'd need that many more battery packs at the charging/swap station.
I think we're fairly close to the point that fast charging 20% to 80% doesn't take all that much time anyway, and that's the way to go. As noted, MAYBE fleets can swap batteries.
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Cars and trucks inherently have to have different battery packs, at minimum because they come in such different sizes. Maybe government could force the issue and only "allow" say five or six different battery packs. So, then the "filling station" has to have 5-6 times however many on hand, most of which are being charged, and some of which are charged and ready to go. That could mean 60 packs or more?
Then you have to have common connections of course. And those connections conduct a lot of current and need to be pretty well shielded. The packs are quite heavy of course, so they'd also need some kind of very heavy release and secure brackets.
I suspect inductive charging would be more practicable, even though that too has many challenges.
They have many different engines. Why would batteries be different?
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They have many different engines. Why would batteries be different?
They only would if forced by government edict.
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Cars and trucks inherently have to have different battery packs, at minimum because they come in such different sizes. Maybe government could force the issue and only "allow" say five or six different battery packs. So, then the "filling station" has to have 5-6 times however many on hand, most of which are being charged, and some of which are charged and ready to go. That could mean 60 packs or more?
Then you have to have common connections of course. And those connections conduct a lot of current and need to be pretty well shielded. The packs are quite heavy of course, so they'd also need some kind of very heavy release and secure brackets.
I suspect inductive charging would be more practicable, even though that too has many challenges.
Yeah, I envision it more like an oil change situation rather than pulling up to the pump.
I'm probably wrong, but we'll see in 20-30 years or so.
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They only would if forced by government edict.
I'm a NO on that.
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purchasing power will eventually decide, if the government stays out of it.
perhaps the American big 3 could get together and set a "standard" that could grab market share and drive out Tesla and/or others that refused to conform
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Currently, one competitive edge is battery design. I don't know why that would change. ICE vehicles have different engines as an effort to present buyers with some apparent competitive edge.
Anyway, the various difficulties have been laid out, and I think they are largely insuperable, fleet being a possible exception.
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I'm just suggesting cars in the same class would be virtual fleets.
If the Tesla Y, Rav4, Escape, CRV, and Sportage all utilize the same battery, well there you go. You have a large-volume fleet.
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I'm just suggesting cars in the same class would be virtual fleets.
If the Tesla Y, Rav4, Escape, CRV, and Sportage all utilize the same battery, well there you go. You have a large-volume fleet.
What if Hyundai, Chevy, Ford, Honda and Toyota all used Mercedes-Benz engines?
Impossible to answer. It's never going to happen, and it shouldn't.
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Fair points.
#1 - eventually, someone will "win" and be the major producer of the most-used type (not best, just most-used). They'll be the most popular for a time and that winning company will fight to extend that time for as many years/decades as they can.
#2 - once something is the standard and "good enough" they stifle innovation anyway, as they do now with all things. Once a company "wins," they have no motive to change the status quo.
I'm just looking down the road and figuring companies will do what they always do.
#1 - no, this is you going down your trope that capitalism always ends in monopoly w/o government stopping it. That's not borne out by history. More commonly with technology, it's companies racing towards "better" and continually one-upping each other trying to gain an edge that none ever hold for very long.
#2 - also not true. Again, I live this daily. Our industry is heavily standardized, where standards make our products and our competitors' products interchangeable. Where the competitive differentiation between vendors is the capacity of data the products can hold, and the reliability and cost of the products. An industry that has become an oligopoly (only 3 worldwide companies, 2 of which have >80% combined market share) and I can absolutely bore you to tears with all the innovation that we have done, and are continuing to do. Because if we sleep on innovation, the other main competitor will take our share. If they sleep, we'll take theirs. Nobody is standing still. We're trying to exploit every technological edge we can, every single day. Because the competition is too. Being 6 months behind reaching the next capacity point could mean hundreds of millions of dollars difference in revenue over several quarters because the competitor has something you don't have.
You say these things but you have no evidence. It's a fundamentally flawed understanding of how technology and the free market operate. It's a constant race to build a better mousetrap. If you don't build a better mousetrap, someone else will, and they'll get the mousetrap sales. Let that go on too long, and you'll find yourself out of the mousetrap business entirely.
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they don't all use Mercedes engines but they all use fossil fuel burning engines
I don't know why Florida has to ban fake meat
I also don't know why Cali has to ban gas engines
probably a religious thing ;)
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The place for standardization is in charging connectors and protocols.
Just as today there is standardization in the size and shape of fuel filler on an ICEV so you can get gas at any station you pull up to.
Thankfully, that standardization is starting to happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard), which is a positive force for BEV adoption.
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I also don't know why Cali has to ban gas engin
As noted, Calif really isn't doing this. The "mandate" relates only to new vehicles sold, and includes both BEVs and PHEVs, and my guess is if the is not delayed, we'll see 70% or so PHEVs being sold. And most cars there will remain ICE powered.
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they don't all use Mercedes engines but they all use fossil fuel burning engines
And even then, they don't all use the same gas. Some engines with higher compression ratios require higher octane than others, so gas stations typically have two or three different types of gas.
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so, it's a big nothing burger like most political posturing
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so, it's a big nothing burger like most political posturing
The Cali mandate? It might be a nothing burger, it's easily unmandated. I thought it would be, but now I'm not so sure with PHEVs qualifying. It's about to start hitting, so we'll see. The 35% seems "optimistic" to me.
They mandate 35% of new cars sold must be electric or plug-in hybrid by 2026. That proportion will rise to 68% by 2030 and 100% by 2035
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I meant a nothing burger in the sense of burning gasoline and CO2 emissions
if most of the "new" cars meeting the mandate being sold have gas powered engines
yes, a small percentage lower number of gallons per mile will be burned, but if there are more people and more miles, the result will be mostly nothing
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I figured my current car was the last gas-powered car I'd have. Just paid it off, so that's good. 66K miles on it. I could probably double that before it gets to be a money pit.
Maybe I should edit my suspicion to being the last solely gas-powered car. Idk.
I miss my Jeep.
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I figured my current car was the last gas-powered car I'd have. Just paid it off, so that's good. 66K miles on it. I could probably double that before it gets to be a money pit.
Maybe I should edit my suspicion to being the last solely gas-powered car. Idk.
I miss my Jeep.
Seems like you take a lot of driving trips? EV might not be great for you.
It would suck to have to charge for 40 minutes in Death Valley.
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Seems like you take a lot of driving trips? EV might not be great for you.
It would suck to have to charge for 40 minutes in Death Valley.
It would suck to do anything for 40 minutes in Death Valley.
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might want to borrow a gasser for the annual trip to Florida
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I figured my current car was the last gas-powered car I'd have. Just paid it off, so that's good. 66K miles on it. I could probably double that before it gets to be a money pit.
Maybe I should edit my suspicion to being the last solely gas-powered car. Idk.
I miss my Jeep.
Yeah, I'm TBD on what I'll do when I replace my car. And also TBD on when that will be.
It's currently ~10 years old with 90K miles. The earliest I'll do anything will be at least 2 years from now (when my oldest graduates HS) or 3 years from now (second oldest graduates). But I also think that my driving volume will decrease soon (oldest should get his drivers license very soon), so I'll be accumulating miles more slowly.
Once they're out of the house I might just decide that there's no need to rush into getting anything.
And the longer I wait, the more mature the EV market will be and the more we understand the longer-term ownership outlook for EVs. So the longer I wait, the more information I'll have to make a decision on whether my next car will be EV or not.
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I figured my current car was the last gas-powered car I'd have. Just paid it off, so that's good. 66K miles on it. I could probably double that before it gets to be a money pit.
Maybe I should edit my suspicion to being the last solely gas-powered car. Idk.
I miss my Jeep.
(https://i.imgur.com/MOMR0mO.jpeg)
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Yeah, I'm TBD on what I'll do when I replace my car. And also TBD on when that will be.
It's currently ~10 years old with 90K miles. The earliest I'll do anything will be at least 2 years from now (when my oldest graduates HS) or 3 years from now (second oldest graduates). But I also think that my driving volume will decrease soon (oldest should get his drivers license very soon), so I'll be accumulating miles more slowly.
Once they're out of the house I might just decide that there's no need to rush into getting anything.
And the longer I wait, the more mature the EV market will be and the more we understand the longer-term ownership outlook for EVs. So the longer I wait, the more information I'll have to make a decision on whether my next car will be EV or not.
Make sure you get one that you can swap out the battery...:57:
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[img width=500 height=280.994]https://i.imgur.com/MOMR0mO.jpeg[/img]
Grasps my pearls
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Yeah, I'm TBD on what I'll do when I replace my car.
As ew've discussed, you have time, and interest in staying up with new developments, and time to consider your needs. Clearly a PHEV could be a good option for you at some point. I think the landscape will be considerably different in 3-4 years. Even though GM and Mercedes et al. have made noises about slowing down, they are still going pretty fast in terms of new models.
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As ew've discussed, you have time, and interest in staying up with new developments, and time to consider your needs. Clearly a PHEV could be a good option for you at some point. I think the landscape will be considerably different in 3-4 years. Even though GM and Mercedes et al. have made noises about slowing down, they are still going pretty fast in terms of new models.
Yeah, and although there's "slowing down", sales are still projected to keep going up. There was an oversupply as a bunch of brands all flooded the market at the same time with new models, and realized that everyone else did it too.
BTW I don't believe in "oversupply". What happens is that there is too much supply to be sold at financially sustainable prices. You drop the price enough, and the market will clear. But you can't lose money and make it up in volume, so they cut back on production to try to get it into a more sustainable balance.
Believe me, I know the story well. That was my industry from mid-2022 until end-2023. Customers had an inventory glut and weren't buying, so everyone across the industry cut back production, posting "underutilization" charges every quarter because the factories weren't full, trying to bring supply and demand back into balance so prices got back to where we can make money. It wasn't that nobody wanted our products, it was that there was a temporary supply/demand imbalance that needed time to work through the system.
The IEA says that annual US BEV sales will more than double from CY2023 to CY2025.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-28/the-slowdown-in-us-electric-vehicle-sales-looks-more-like-a-blip
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They may be slowing their transition rates.
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They may be slowing their transition rates.
Possibly. Until/unless BEV can become less expensive than ICEV for a reasonable (300+ mile) range, there will always be a natural impediment to mainstream adoption.
Economics uber alles
Luxury-priced cars are a limited market. Battery costs need to come down if they want to move more volume. And that's a technology problem, not a manufacturing problem. There's no shortcut--need to get the $/kWh down, and that'll happen through chemistry, not manufacturing efficiency.
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The 2025 Cadillac Optiq Electric SUV Offers Great Optics, No Illusion (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-cadillac-optiq-first-look-review/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR13cSWaYSmgGc7pPM3IUChCDYwC4xcE0O3-UZOkinuMoIJNbD40X6T5EOk_aem_Ach1B3nqnXlQC5ktJxfehdVjKGjk3340xiVV18bHCVhkwrwPYkm0vlARGPYb-E2OrjcQMPhniNNh3j0ZUOhXdBjo)
$54 K
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This whole talk about battery swapping is utterly wrong. You're looking at it like the old mobile phones of yore where you could pop the battery out and pop a new one in.
Modern BEV have extensive cooling and conditioning to keep them under optimal temps. I'm talking radiators, cooling pumps, heating pumps, miles of piping. Etc. Thermal conditioning is everything on a BEV. Not only that, but the amps/volts are quite large, with big wires and big cables coming and going. Not something you're going to be able to swap out like the old cartridge's from a video game from the 80's/90's. The battery packs themselves weigh tons, and they are embedded into the body of the car in such a way that they are not easily removed.
Unless the packs themselves can be massively shrunk (high energy density) and the thermal requirements eliminated you're never going to see much in the way of swapping battery packs in BEV's outside of some very unusual circumstances.
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I'd guess it could be possible to standardize all the cooling couplings in batteries as well, at least when thinking about a fleet situation. This of course adds another layer of complexity on top of complexity.
On the other hand, most fleet situations involve diurnal usage of vehicles, and it's probably easier just to line them up and charge them at your garage over night.
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WASHINGTON — As part of its ongoing effort to replace diesel-fueled school buses, the Biden administration on Wednesday said it will provide approximately 530 school districts across nearly all states with almost $1 billion to help them purchase clean school buses.
The initiative, part of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Clean School Bus Program rebate competition, will give funds to school districts in 47 states and the District of Columbia to help them buy over 3,400 clean school buses. Alaska, Hawaii and Nevada are not part of this round of funding.
Nearly all of the clean school buses purchased will be electric, at 92%, according to the administration.
“This announcement is not just about clean school buses, it’s about the bigger picture,” EPA Administrator Michael S. Regan said during a call with reporters on Tuesday, prior to the announcement. “We are improving air quality for our children, reducing greenhouse gas pollution and expanding our nation’s leadership in developing the clean vehicles of the future.”
In Nebraska, the Omaha School District will receive $1.45 million for three electric buses. The Winnebago district will receive $1.035 million, also for three electric buses.
Low-income, rural and tribal communities — accounting for approximately 45% of the selected projects — are slated to receive roughly 67% of the total funding, per the administration.
Regan noted how “low-income communities and communities of color have long felt the disproportionate impacts of air pollution leading to severe health outcomes that continue to impact these populations.”
As for business and economic opportunities, Regan pointed to the development of new, well-paying manufacturing jobs and investment in local businesses stemming from the increasing demand for these clean school buses.
“As more and more schools make the switch to electric buses, there will be a need for American-made batteries, charging stations and service providers to maintain the buses supercharging and reinvigorating local economies,” he added.
The Clean School Bus Program has now collectively awarded nearly $3 billion to fund approximately 8,500 electric and alternative fuel buses for over 1,000 communities across the United States, according to the administration.
The program started through the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law passed by Congress and signed by President Joe Biden, which includes $5 billion over five years to transform the country’s existing school buses with “zero-emission and low-emission models,” per the EPA.
Among many negative health and environmental effects, especially for communities of color, diesel exhaust exposure can lead to major health conditions such as asthma and respiratory illnesses, according to the EPA.
Exposure to diesel exhaust can also “worsen existing heart and lung disease, especially in children and the elderly,” the agency said.
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This whole talk about battery swapping is utterly wrong. You're looking at it like the old mobile phones of yore where you could pop the battery out and pop a new one in.
Modern BEV have extensive cooling and conditioning to keep them under optimal temps. I'm talking radiators, cooling pumps, heating pumps, miles of piping. Etc. Thermal conditioning is everything on a BEV. Not only that, but the amps/volts are quite large, with big wires and big cables coming and going. Not something you're going to be able to swap out like the old cartridge's from a video game from the 80's/90's. The battery packs themselves weigh tons, and they are embedded into the body of the car in such a way that they are not easily removed.
Unless the packs themselves can be massively shrunk (high energy density) and the thermal requirements eliminated you're never going to see much in the way of swapping battery packs in BEV's outside of some very unusual circumstances.
@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) It goes back a ways, and OAM and I have sparred on it quite a bit. I personally believe that it doesn't make sense for mainstream passenger cars, and that by the time there might be solutions to the very significant technological/logistical issues with battery swaps, charging solutions will be so ubiquitous to make the point moot.
However, I reopened the discussion by posting this link: https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/27/data-on-battery-swapping-for-heavy-and-light-vehicles-is-nuanced/
I know you only check in every few days, so if you missed that, I recommend checking it out.
It doesn't disagree with the "battery swaps probably won't be a thing for mainstream passenger cars" thesis, but it does expand on some of the areas where battery swap technology may actually make some sense, including covering some use cases I hadn't thought of previously.
I thought it was a well put together piece, which is why I shared it.
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I agree based on what seems to be happening over time with battery recharging and range. The infrastructure will develop pretty rapidly from here and EV users will be basically locked into recharging, as will mfgers.
I suspect the inductive recharging MIGHT have some application down the road. I "fantasize" about the notion of single use high speed lanes with EVs positioned nose to tail traveling at 120 mph like a train with inductive charging.
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Dreamer
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Yup, is my reason for thinking HSR could be obsolete by the time much is in place.
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It's fine.
I'm dreaming or hoping for a breakthrough or 3 that will provide clean green inexpensive power.
I don't have a great amount of faith
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It's fine.
I'm dreaming or hoping for a breakthrough or 3 that will provide clean green inexpensive power.
I don't have a great amount of faith
I don't even have hope (if nuke is not in the cards).
At least you have faith.
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I don't have much hope for meeting the Paris accords or whatever
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@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) It goes back a ways, and OAM and I have sparred on it quite a bit. I personally believe that it doesn't make sense for mainstream passenger cars, and that by the time there might be solutions to the very significant technological/logistical issues with battery swaps, charging solutions will be so ubiquitous to make the point moot.
However, I reopened the discussion by posting this link: https://cleantechnica.com/2024/05/27/data-on-battery-swapping-for-heavy-and-light-vehicles-is-nuanced/
I know you only check in every few days, so if you missed that, I recommend checking it out.
It doesn't disagree with the "battery swaps probably won't be a thing for mainstream passenger cars" thesis, but it does expand on some of the areas where battery swap technology may actually make some sense, including covering some use cases I hadn't thought of previously.
I thought it was a well put together piece, which is why I shared it.
I skim most of the posts, I did not check on the link.
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Was shocked to see a cyber truck today in Brookings SD.
Home of the national championship football jack rabbits.
It was ugly as hell and sporting a paper tag from mizzou
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I suspect the inductive recharging MIGHT have some application down the road. I "fantasize" about the notion of single use high speed lanes with EVs positioned nose to tail traveling at 120 mph like a train with inductive charging.
I think that's the ideal end state for autonomous vehicles. Not just that they can all drive safely, but that with intercommunication between vehicles, they can drive so closely positioned as to improve the speed, the road carrying capacity, and then obviously the efficiency due to the drafting effects.
As we've discussed in the past, I don't particularly have high confidence in inductive charging becoming significantly adopted.
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Ye of little faith
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What it's like to ride in a $258k electric sports boat (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/other/what-it-s-like-to-ride-in-a-258k-electric-sports-boat/ar-BB1nb6Zs?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=78097112a6f54c4a81ccb4d7b38c3672&ei=18)
Let's unpack.
(https://i.imgur.com/T3nrCnb.png)
1. All boats require maintenance. This is a nonsensical statement.
2. Gas engines almost never need to be replaced. I've only seen it done one time in all of my years, and it was done by choice. This is complete and utter bullshit.
3. Most boats are closed cooling, especially the ones used in salt water. In fresh water, it doesn't matter one bit. More bullshit.
4. EFI engines don't flood. More bullshit.
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$250K is the biggest barrier for me
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$250K is the biggest barrier for me
Same boat with a gasser would be about $100K.
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To claim a gasoline boat engine needs replacement "every few years" is so overtly bizarre as to tear up any point they may be making.
And maybe for $258 K you get a nice boat, are there places to recharge it?
How much does it cost to recharge?
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the gas engine needs replacement MUCH less often than the battery for the EB, I'll bet.
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the gas engine needs replacement MUCH less often than the battery for the EB, I'll bet.
Correct.
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Good question, my impression is that rec boats don't put on too many miles, in a year. A battery might last a much longer time in a boat than in a car.
A boat takes a lot more power to move around, so I'd wonder about range.
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not sure about lithium batteries, but lead acid batteries are affected by age, regardless of use.
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If you keep it in a slip, you'd likely have power there. But I don't' know anyone who would keep a 23' wake boat in a slip.
So, at home, I guess?
My HOA doesn't allow boats to be stored on property. Most don't.
Arc website says overnight charge.
No idea where that happens.
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not sure about lithium batteries, but lead acid batteries are affected by age, regardless of use.
They don't like saltwater.
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fire in the hole!
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Same boat with a gasser would be about $100K.
Top of the line wakeboats are now running $250K-$300K. It's insane.
If you keep it in a slip, you'd likely have power there. But I don't' know anyone who would keep a 23' wake boat in a slip.
On freshwater lakes around here, EVERYBODY keeps a 23' wakeboat in a slip. Ours is in honeycomb dry storage but that's just because the waiting list on wet slips is about 4-5 years long.
But I agree with your overall points. The idea of throwing out an ICE boat engine "every few years" is so ridiculous that it merits no response.
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So, they bottom paint a wake boat?
A buddy of mine bought a new 23 Mastercraft in 2022 for $105K. I don't know if it's top of the line. He seemed to think so.
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So, they bottom paint a wake boat?
No, wet slips all have hoists here.
A buddy of mine bought a new 23 Mastercraft in 2022 for $105K. I don't know if it's top of the line. He seemed to think so.
Mastercraft is a good brand. It's what we have. But Nautiques and others can go for almost double these days. Also, I can't think of a single Mastercraft that would go for $100,000 today. $140,000... maybe. Might just be a matter of a different market. Wakeboats are THE boats here, since there's no ocean.
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I would not be an early adopter of an electric boat of any size. Maybe a pedal boat. Probably not.
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I would not be an early adopter of an electric boat of any size. Maybe a pedal boat. Probably not.
Same here. There are likely some advantages to electric boats, but I'll go ahead and let the technology mature for a while before I ever look into it. Saltwater would be especially corrosive to many of the parts in an electric boat (just as it is for an ICE) but we don't have a hundred years of history to know what's likely to break, and how, in the same way we do with ICE.
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We don't see Mastercraft down here much. My buddy lives in Illinois, which is where he uses it on inland lakes. Lake Michigan is far too rough for a wake boat.
My hoist, do you mean boat lift?
(https://i.imgur.com/StCUR3D.jpeg)
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We don't see Mastercraft down here much. My buddy lives in Illinois, which is where he uses it on inland lakes. Lake Michigan is far too rough for a wake boat.
My hoist, do you mean boat lift?
(https://i.imgur.com/StCUR3D.jpeg)
Yup. Two main kinds here-- electric winch lifts, and hydro-hoists. The former is sort of the old time standard, and the "new" hydro hoist fills and empties plastic pontoons underneath the support structure:
(https://i.imgur.com/xVXwyMH.jpeg)
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That big ass Carver Aft Cabin doesn't seem to fit in...
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I prefer a boat powered by renewables, personally...
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Logistics would be key. My preference is what I have. We can always find fuel no matter where we go.
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That big ass Carver Aft Cabin doesn't seem to fit in...
Lots of different kinds of boats on the lakes around here, although I have no idea where that photo was taken, I just grabbed it from the net.
It has a Trump flag on it, so not likely based in Austin, Texas...
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Lots of different kinds of boats on the lakes around here, although I have no idea where that photo was taken, I just grabbed it from the net.
It has a Trump flag on it, so not likely based in Austin, Texas...
Hah!
It's probably based here.
Lots of those, as well as FJB flags (which I find to be tacky), in these parts.
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probably based above one of the dams in South Dakota
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(https://i.imgur.com/J3leBRd.png)
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Americans still prefer gas vehicles over hybrid or EVs, study shows | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/americans-still-prefer-gas-vehicles-over-hybrid-or-evs-study-shows-2024-05-30/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A Trending)
Americans still prefer to buy a standard gas vehicle over a hybrid or an electric vehicle even with the same price and features, a KPMG study, opens new tab (https://kpmg.com/us/en/media/news/2024-american-perspectives-survey.html) said on Thursday.
Only one-fifth of people surveyed said they would purchase an EV over a gas-powered vehicle or hybrid vehicle.
This is bizarre to me, if a hybrid offers the same overall features, what's wrong with it? Or an EV for that matter, though there you could worry about battery life and charging costs. I chose a hybrid, it seems to work fine (so far).
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Americans still prefer gas vehicles over hybrid or EVs, study shows | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/americans-still-prefer-gas-vehicles-over-hybrid-or-evs-study-shows-2024-05-30/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A Trending)
Americans still prefer to buy a standard gas vehicle over a hybrid or an electric vehicle even with the same price and features, a KPMG study, opens new tab (https://kpmg.com/us/en/media/news/2024-american-perspectives-survey.html) said on Thursday.
Only one-fifth of people surveyed said they would purchase an EV over a gas-powered vehicle or hybrid vehicle.
This is bizarre to me, if a hybrid offers the same overall features, what's wrong with it? Or an EV for that matter, though there you could worry about battery life and charging costs. I chose a hybrid, it seems to work fine (so far).
It depends IMHO how narrowly define "same price and features". If same features means same gas mileage, I'd prefer the pure gasser over the hybrid as it's less complex. If it means same features but you also get more gas mileage, I'd take a hybrid for the same price as an pure gasser.
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This is bizarre to me, if a hybrid offers the same overall features, what's wrong with it? Or an EV for that matter, though there you could worry about battery life and charging costs. I chose a hybrid, it seems to work fine (so far).
people are bizarre and uninformed and equipped with little knowledge
also depends on how the poll question was "framed"
many people don't know the difference between the 3
many just have a negative feeling towards electrics and hybrids
many lean right and just refuse to even think about it
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The report that most folks who own PHEVs never plug them in is perhaps probative here. Car buyers often don't understand what they bought, it would seem. Or maybe it's laziness. Or both.
Obviously, an EV and a gasser won't ever offer the exact same kind of vehicle. The EV will have certain advantages that are inherent, and disadvantages.
In some "logical" existence, I'd think "we" should be explaining the merits of PHEVs, and putting less emphasis on EVs. The transition from ICe to EV is too abrupt, I think, with a lot of misinformation, and a lot of stubborness (i.e., no real conservative would every drive an EV).
PHEVs offer a more gradual transition, still with some deficiencies, but they SHOULD be more palatable to John Q.
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perhaps the folks trying to sell these "new" vehicles should be educating the targeted potential purchasers about the advantages and how they work and how easy it is.
maybe the government could provide a campaign to educate instead of rebates
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I think so many folks made up their minds on this issue it would be difficult to "educate". I think government could do a MUCH better job explaining things like MPGe, and EV range, and charging times, etc..
One nice thing about many PHEVs is that they offer more power and acceleration than the corresponding ICE-V. That could be a selling point.
Maybe the car makers are also at fault, other than Toyota/Honda.
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Sweden is building the world's first permanent electrified road for EVs to charge while driving | Euronews (https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/05/09/sweden-is-building-the-worlds-first-permanent-electrified-road-for-evs-to-charge-while-dri)
A lot of vaporware at this point.
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Boats are the 2nd worst kind of Electric vehicle to pursue, right behind Airplanes.
First of all, hardly any engines are ran as hard as boat engines. You'd never cruise around in your car at 5-6K RPM for hours at a time, whereas a lot of boats do in fact run well over 4K RPM for extended periods. My own boat I usually run between 4-5.5K RPM's to keep it on plane and at a decent speed.
For some boats, the weight is critical. Obviously some boats like Wakeboats need the extra weight to create the wakes, and with the battery being presumably low the COG would probably be better than any inboard/outboard. On the plus side, the weight could be better distributed, and the motor could be much lighter than any outboard at the stern of the boat.
But you're talking about efficiencies of 2-3 times less than that of any type of electric car. So if you're car you're driving now gets 20-30 MPG, a comparable boat engine would get maybe 3-5 mpg at best. Which basically means limited range. Add that into a wet environment that is already hard on electronics along with the beatings boats take (pounding wakes etc) I just don't see it as a good option outside a few unusual circumstances until battery density's get much higher, which is most likely not going to happen until some major breakthrough's occur.
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3,100 RPM is the ideal cruising setting for my boat in most cases. Sometimes little more, sometimes a little less.
Top speed is about 5,100 RPM.
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New fuel economy rules for cars and trucks released by Biden administration (thehill.com) (https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/4710604-transportation-department-issues-final-fuel-economy-rule-for-model-years-2027-2031/)
So, my "dodge" about the new rules and the CA mandate is to build a PHEV with about 10 miles of battery range, maybe even less, to be charged with a 110V line. (Maybe it has a 220v plug also if it matters.) It's basically just a hybrid, but with a somewhat larger battery than a mild hybrid. I imagine most owners wouldn't bother to charge it.
It would cost a bit more, maybe a thousand bucks. And it would meet the CA "mandate" requirements.
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https://www.carscoops.com/2024/06/toyota-has-developed-a-new-combustion-engine-that-will-fend-of-evs-for-years-to-come/
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Any ICE can run on a suitable biofuel. Hydrigen has issues of course.
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Gas prices in San Diego were right around $5. I got $4.50 at Costco. Electricity out there is about 30 cents per kWhr. I noticed a LOT of Teslas driving around, more than I recall previously. A Camry hybrid is rated at 52 mpg combined, let's use 50 mpg for short. A Tesla 3 needs about 25 kWhrs to go 100 miles. Charging at home, said Tesla would cost $7.50, the Camry would use 2 gallons at $5, so $10. This is about the most favorable EV - ICE comparison around (short of charging for free in a few instances).
A PHEV Camry would cost the same as the Tesla for 33 miles of the 100, and then 25% more after that (unless of course the mileage was broken up and around home). Charging away from home of course is going to be more expensive, probably at least 50 cents per kWhr.
One can argue whether the Camry is the nicer car or not of course, and about battery life etc. The plain Camry hybrid costs about $29 K vs about $39 K for a plain Tesla 3 before any Federal contribution.
A Camry PHEV with ~35 miles of electric range should cost around $32 K.
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I was running errands yesterday a few miles from home. Our Tuscon hybrid was reading 40 mpg for the trips. I went to the liquor store and Kroger, probably 6 miles total in moderate traffic.
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Passed a cyber truck on the road yesterday. Didn’t get a good look at it, since we whizzed by each other at 60 mph. I thought it looked cool. Very different. I probably wouldn’t buy one, but time will tell if the public at large will.
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I saw one at my local pub yesterday while enjoying a Charlie Boy and a Schooner
I think it must be the same one I saw a week ago in Brookings, SD (140 miles away)
was sporting a Mizzou paper tag
real ugly, I wouldn't buy one, just for that reason alone
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I didn't see any in CA, most EVs were Tesla 3s. I saw a very few Mustang Es, and didn't notice any others, but some newer EVs look pretty unremarkable. I might notice if they are parked. There is one new EV in our garage I noticed yesterday, I'd say we have about 5 pure EVs now with 124 families/couples here.
Gas here is $3.50 or so per, not too bad. I do think the early adopters are "all in" and new sales of EVs will be by folks who have done the math, hopefully.
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The Camry is a far better car than the Model 3.
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Maybe so, I have not been in one in ages, and never in a Tesla 3. I was thinking "better" in the sense of being better to drive and ride in overall given they are passenger cars. If I wanted a pretty good "boring" sedan, I'd probably go with an Accord, but I was musing about any PHEV cost:benefit analysis in a high gas price state.
My preliminary opinion is that the PHEV will be the way to go, at the moment, I'd probably go with a mild hybrid. I'm talking about fairly basic "boring" sedans.
I was a bit surprised a hybrid Camry only lists for $29 K, that's a solid value. My small "SUV" thing listed at $40 K. Small "SUVs" are a major thing of course.
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You would not fit in a Model 3.
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gas here?
$2.99
my electric bill for the last month?
$48.15
(https://i.imgur.com/bqH27BX.png)
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Just looking at posted leg and head room on a 3, I should be fine.
42.7" leg room
40.3 head room
The Camry is less on both, 42.1 and 38.3
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You would not fit in a Model 3.
he wouldn't fit in the CT4 - V series
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I'm pretty sure I'd fit in a CT4V BW. I have been in several ATS' where I fit just fine. The GTI had plenty of space for me.
I fit in that stupid Nissan Sentra.
I wouldn't mind having a CT4 V BW with a manual transmission at all.
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Just looking at posted leg and head room on a 3, I should be fine.
42.7" leg room
40.3 head room
The Camry is less on both, 42.1 and 38.3
They Camry feels much larger to me.
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I did have a brief ride in a Tesla Y, the SUVish thing. It seemed spacious enough. My wife liked it. I didn't so much, and this was before I ran the math on charging costs.
My stepson rented it to drive to Cincy and back, and we were both surprised how much it cost to recharge.
I had this notion an EV would be very cheap, like 5x cheaper than gasoline. It was break even, at best, and probably worse.
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It just won’t happen: Biden’s EV mandate relies on pure infrastructure fantasy (thehill.com) (https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/4702924-it-just-wont-happen-bidens-ev-mandate-relies-on-pure-infrastructure-fantasy/)
Basically claims this is all vaporware in effect.
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well, if the EV mandate allows non EVs like the hybrids, then it can happen
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well, if the EV mandate allows non EVs like the hybrids, then it can happen
Not regular hybrids, just PHEVs, which as I've noted, are decent options anyway in CA. And PHEVs can be "gamed" of course.
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Figures used by the government for planning the buildout of charging infrastructure for electric vehicles in Germany are “massively” overestimating the actual need for new charging points, said energy industry lobby group BDEW.
The head of BDEW Kerstine Andreae said that the plans far exceed demand and that it could have unnecessary economic impacts on grid operators.
“[The government’s plans are] oversized and will only be possible with subsidies or by imposing uneconomical supply quotas,” Andreae said in reaction to a report from the National Coordination Board for Charging Infrastructure, which was presented by the transport ministry.
The report said the need for charging points is more than 40 percent higher than what is currently planned by 2030 to comply with the EU’s alternative fuel infrastructure regulation (AFIR), meaning an additional capacity of about 8 gigawatts.
“It is simply not profitable to build charging points that in the end are hardly being used,” Andreae argued, adding further costs could arise for grid operators who must factor in the transport ministry’s forecast demand in their planning.
Moreover, the transport ministry’s report trimmed down the target of having 15 million EVs on the road by 2030 to 13.4 million.
“Instead of taking measures to reach the target, it is now being put into question,” Andreae said. This would further reduce the market potential for charging infrastructure operators and continue to stall progress in the transport sector’s emission reductions, she added. “We urgently need more affordable EV models to reach the target.”
The availability of sufficient charging infrastructure is regarded as one of the key requirements for ensuring a comprehensive roll-out of electric vehicles, whose sales in Germany have suffered from last year’s subsidy cuts.
Grid regulators have warned that a fast adoption of EVs could lead to regional grid overload, triggering a debate about forced throttling of power supply for e-car owners during demand peaks.
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Majority Of Consumers Unlikely Or Very Unlikely To Buy An EV | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2024/06/majority-of-consumers-unlikely-or-very-unlikely-to-buy-an-ev/#Echobox=1718065523)
(https://i.imgur.com/ldEdEVQ.png)
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I'm fairly sure the political leanings of all EV owners in the US is pretty far Left today (not hard left, just left of center, "liberal" as it were). Folks "right of center" might well be eschewing EVs mostly based on their political views and misinformation (and some sound information). You could find two families out there with similar needs and finances, and one might buy an EV and the other wouldn't want any of it at all, purely based on politics.
I think it unfortunate that some base purchase decisions on politics rather than a sound evaluation of the products.
(I didn't buy an EV for what I view as sound evaluations.)
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It's not about politics at all for us. An EV simply makes no sense for us.
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I agree, that is the case for many of course, but I get a sense it is becoming very political now. A conservative doesn't want an EV because he or she thinks it's a liberal thing, and vice versa. I just find this point of view to be ... well, poorly informed and illogical.
And I think it's fairly widely spread.
What percentage of Trump supporters own an EV? Take the subset for whom it would make sense, at least a PHEV. I bet the percentage is under 2% of that group.
As I've noted before, if you own your own home and have two vehicles, using one primarily to get to work, an EV may make sense, like a Bolt, in California. I'd personally go for a PHEV even then.
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I think it unfortunate that some base purchase decisions on politics rather than a sound evaluation of the products.
some of those folks don't think they can afford housing
Some think McDonalds is too expensive
some of those folks are relying on SS in retirement
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EVs are a new technology, going up against over 100 years of establishment. I think some of the resistance against it is probably political, but I think most of it is just your average every-day mistrust of new technologies and fear of the unknown.
As the technology becomes more prevalent and more familiar, a lot of folks will learn more about it, and eventually choose to adopt it.
From what I've witnessed, the political aspect results primarily from some of the heavy-handed political pressure for people to adopt it when it's either not suitable to their use cases, or they still mistrust it for normal reasons. That kind of force can easily turn people against an idea even if it might be a good one.
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word of mouth advertising is probably the most powerful
if your friend or family member or co-worker buys an EV and really likes it and explains it to someone, it's more likely to be effective
just not enuff of them on the road for that yet
and the number that are on the road are in the hands of a subset of tech geeks and left leaning folks that would only influence their circles
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Saw a polished Cybertruck yesterday. Didn't make it any less hideous. In fact, it made the hideousness stand out even more.
Sadly couldn't get a picture.
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I'm not sad
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Quick check on the internet shows this is a thing, several folks have done it, apparently.
(https://i.imgur.com/mnpedJ9.png)
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Quick check on the internet shows this is a thing, several folks have done it, apparently.
Yeah, I've heard about it, but hadn't encountered one in the wild yet.
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Who the F would buy that? Jeez.
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I've polished a vintage 26' Airstream travel trailer to a mirror shine... twice. The Cybertruck isn't nearly cool enough to pull it off.
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yup, I like to drive something that looks at least decent
not something that people are going to point at and laugh
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(https://i.imgur.com/BQHX0jg.png)
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Lithium-ion battery from electric bike catches fire (winknews.com) (https://winknews.com/2024/06/11/lithium-ion-battery-electric-bike-catches-fire/)
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(https://i.imgur.com/A2iu1Kr.jpeg)
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DETROIT (AP) — Just before 2 a.m. on a chilly April night in Seattle, a Chevrolet Silverado pickup stopped at an electric vehicle charging station on the edge of a shopping center parking lot.
Two men, one with a light strapped to his head, got out. A security camera recorded them pulling out bolt cutters. One man snipped several charging cables; the other loaded them into the truck. In under 2½ minutes, they were gone.
The scene that night has become part of a troubling pattern across the country: Thieves have been targeting EV charging stations, intent on stealing the cables, which contain copper wiring. The price of copper is near a record high on global markets, which means criminals stand to collect rising sums of cash from selling the material.
The stolen cables often disable entire stations, forcing EV owners on the road to search desperately for a working charger. For the owners, the predicament can be exasperating and stressful.
Broken-down chargers have emerged as the latest obstacle for U.S. automakers in their strenuous effort to convert more Americans to EVs despite widespread public anxiety about a scarcity of charging stations. About 4 in 10 U.S. adults say they believe EVs take too long to charge or don’t know of any charging stations nearby.
If even finding a charging station doesn’t necessarily mean finding functioning cables, it becomes one more reason for skeptical buyers to stick with traditional gasoline-fueled or hybrid vehicles, at least for now.
America’s major automakers have made heavy financial bets that buyers will shift away from combustion engines and embrace EVs as the world faces the worsening consequences of climate change. Accordingly, the companies have poured billions into EVs.
Stellantis envisions 50% of its passenger cars being EVs by the end of 2030. Ford set a target of producing 2 million EVs per year by 2026 — about 45% of its global sales — though it has since suspended that goal. General Motors, the most ambitious of the three, has pledged to sell only EV passenger cars by the end of 2035.
Two years ago, according to Electrify America, which runs the nation’s second-largest network of direct-current fast chargers, a cable might be cut perhaps every six months at one of its 968 charging stations, with 4,400 plugs nationwide. Through May this year, the figure reached 129 — four more than in all of 2023. At one Seattle station, cables were cut six times in the past year, said Anthony Lambkin, Electrify America’s vice president of operations.
“We’re enabling people to get to work, to take their kids to school, get to medical appointments,” Lambkin said. “So to have an entire station that’s offline is pretty impactful to our customers.”
Two other leading EV charging companies — Flo and EVgo — also have reported a rise in thefts. Charging stations in the Seattle area have been a frequent target. Sites in Nevada, California, Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas and Pennsylvania have been hit, too.
Stations run by Tesla, which operates the nation’s largest fast-charging network, have been struck in Seattle, Oakland and Houston. So far this year, Seattle police have reported seven cases of cable thefts from charging stations, matching the number for all of 2023. Thieves hit Tesla stations four times this year compared with just once last year, the Seattle police said.
“Vandalism of public charging infrastructure in the Seattle metro area has unfortunately been increasing in frequency,” EVgo said.
The company said law enforcement officials are investigating the thefts while it tries to repair inoperable stations and considers a longer-term solution.
The problem isn’t confined to urban areas. In rural Sumner, Washington, about 30 miles south of Seattle, thieves cut cables twice at a Puget Sound Energy charging station. The company is working with police and the property owner to protect the station, which cost more than $500,000 to install.
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Uh oh.
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probably rednecks in diesel pickups
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OTOH hand, catalytic converter theft is also fairly common, and EV owners don't have to worry about that one.
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OTOH hand, catalytic converter theft is also fairly common, and EV owners don't have to worry about that one.
Still? I don't know it was a thing anymore.
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yup, still
worth more than a charger cable or 2
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Had to look it up. Yeah, it's still a thing. Half of the thefts are in California. No wonder I didn't know about it. :57:
What is a catalytic converter and why do people keep stealing them? (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/what-is-a-catalytic-converter-and-why-do-people-keep-stealing-them/ar-BB1nkomR?ocid=BingNewsSerp)
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precious metals
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Platinum in particular, as it is an effective catalyst for promoting oxidation of things like CO and HC in the exhaust. The converters get rather hot.
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VW Is Shifting Billions From EV Plans to Gas Car Development (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/vw-is-shifting-billions-from-ev-plans-to-gas-car-development?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2o8NgDV3gUWHh7VTlNNPFxBDUHU83Dp4u6unq0YKZsgF-xNXL8mkko-Ms_aem_AZUUvNvB4Xh8HzdyDL73tkazE9Fg_lKTHQ0teIBdpfBOJAwVFFvgLerLBu9X5A0L4Y1hOJCi9uJ7NZrK-TcdD7aZ)
This EV thing isn't dead, or dying, but it's slowing down the rate of increase. I idly wonder if at some point in say 2035, "we" end up with a market that is "EV stable", say 20% of new cars in the US are pure EVs, and the rest are not, and the EV percentage is barely growing if at all.
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General Motors Cut Its 2024 EV Sales Goal Over Demand Concerns (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/722947/gm-cut-2024-ev-sales-forecast/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3WjSQ99joj3dhWbnUOJiqoN0boi1HM9AzKkVC_UPU9MUSXlBXgZqLLFAg_aem_Afa_E2Fj0Q6-M880ebDkLBREYU5FZ63kTRaMT0OVGJ5E055vRxMUnMiDRe5MJ4kX_6FVaDnfUJmh0uDP3AcMp3Sr)
I think it's more supply concerns out running demand. By a lot.
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What Happens When Your Ford F-150 Lightning EV Battery Runs Out of Range?
We ran our F-150 Lightning electric pickup truck’s battery to zero so you don’t have to.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-update-8/ (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-update-8/)
First Charger Fooled Us
We chose the DC fast charger nearest our office, a brand-new bank of EVgo units ranging from 100 to 350 kW. Our driver did an amazing job of dropping the truck right next to the charger, 90 degrees from the direction his truck was pointed. We plugged in, saw the communication initiate, inserted our credit card, waved goodbye to our driver, and then … nothing. We disconnected, reconnected, and reinserted the card multiple times before calling EVgo support. When I mentioned that I couldn’t move the vehicle to try another one because it was completely dead, the rep declared that the Evgo charger couldn’t charge a dead battery—I needed a Level 2 charger for that, and she provided two nearby options. We’ve never heard any such story, there’s no such warning in the owner’s manual, and in fact we have photos recharging a dead Ioniq 5 at an EVgo fast charge station in California. But we were still sitting dead with no means of resuscitation. So at 12:48, we called Ford roadside assistance, requesting a tow 1.1 miles south to our office L2 charger.
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The "real" range of an EV is whatever is between 20% charge and 80% charge, taking into account weather etc.
The saw a report the "Air" claims to need only 20 kWhr per hundred miles. It's expensive of course. But that's a lot better than the 30 figure most EVs use. It starts to make away from home charging palatable in some instances.
I'd still do PHEV over EV for my personal needs were I to have to choose either.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/16/used-ev-price-crash-gets-deeper-with-premium-brand-idea-history.html
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https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-bed-length-is-a-lie-1851544285
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https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/electric-vehicle-startup-fisker-files-for-bankruptcy-0a3eb7d6?st=mwyyiy6tuz8s8j4&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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I think we'll see more bankruptcies of the non-"legacy" EV makers. Maybe one will survive, maybe Lucid, I'm not sure of even that.
Air | Lucid Motors (https://lucidmotors.com/air)
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What's Next for Electric Vehicles as Market Turns Murky? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61143278/electric-vehicle-market-outlook/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1v43jyCYBxADoqbauGacqTqApbNfeyj7GoiyLQHQos09xWkDtEBs_YQO0_aem_BjMGItaeyB4G82EbgZc0mQ)
No discussion of PHEVs, which COULD end up being the dominant form in the nearer future (by 2050).
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https://www.ornl.gov/news/polyphase-wireless-power-transfer-system-achieves-270-kilowatt-charge-sets-another-world (https://www.ornl.gov/news/polyphase-wireless-power-transfer-system-achieves-270-kilowatt-charge-sets-another-world)
Researchers at the Department of Energy’s Oak Ridge National Laboratory have successfully demonstrated the first 270-kW wireless power transfer to a light-duty electric vehicle. The demonstration used a Porsche Taycan and was conducted in collaboration with Volkswagen Group of America using the ORNL-developed polyphase wireless charging system.
https://youtu.be/AQxxyDUzoZI
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could eliminate the issue with stolen supercharger copper cables
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Looks like an ad, to me, hopefully it's so, but there often are negatives in the process. A five inch gap? That's huge.
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Point... This doesn't appear to be a "charging while driving" situation. This is just wireless charging of a fixed car placed over a fixed charger.
270 kW is impressive, but it doesn't fundamentally solve any issue with EV charging--it just removes the physical cable.
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could eliminate the issue with stolen supercharger copper cables
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Charging while driving wouldn't need anywhere close to this much power transmission of course. The five inch comment was interesting, to me. My guess is charging while driving would require more like an inch or so separation, and the EV would need to have a plate or coils very close to the road to work well.
I think it's maybe possible. Maybe. Some day. Soon.
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could eliminate the issue with stolen supercharger copper cables
Remains to be seen how widespread that issue is. I get a lot of EV stuff in my Google News feed on my phone, and that hadn't come up. I haven't heard in a thread about EVs on another forum anyone talk about it, or having had run into a charger that wasn't available because the cables were gone.
If these are isolated incidents, it might have made for a good news story on a slow week, but ultimately be a nothingburger.
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I think so far stolen cables are rare events hyped in the news to an extent, but it could be a real problem in the future. I don't know the value of the copper when it's being sold black market, might be a few bucks.
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Charging while driving wouldn't need anywhere close to this much power transmission of course. The five inch comment was interesting, to me. My guess is charging while driving would require more like an inch or so separation, and the EV would need to have a plate or coils very close to the road to work well.
I think it's maybe possible. Maybe. Some day. Soon.
Yes, but inductive charging for something like this (or a phone) is extraordinarily dependent on alignment.
My wife and I have inductive chargers for our phones. They don't charge if you're less than 1 cm off center. There are a fair number of nights where one of us will wake up and realize the phone didn't charge. It's why phones now have what are called 'magsafe' chargers / phone covers where the charger magnetically attaches to the phone in EXACTLY the right place so that the coils are perfectly aligned (and can't get knocked off in the middle of the night either).
For a stationary EV coil charger, that <1 cm alignment requirement might be <3" or something like that because the charging coil and the receiving coils will both be much larger. But once you get too far out of alignment, the receiving coil won't respond to the field and charge. Static wireless EV charging will likely require someone to figure out how to either get drivers to align the car JUST SO, or will require the charging coil to be movable so it can be guided into place once the car is parked. I suspect it would be the latter if this tech ever takes off.
For a moving car, that alignment issue is a constant problem. They're going to have to come up with something different than this sort of tech.
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This Electrified Road Charges Your EV as You Drive (popularmechanics.com) (https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a40313108/electrified-road-charges-your-ev-on-the-go/)
This is still very nascent of course, despite the glowing "ads" sometimes reported. It's a concept, and likely would need autonomous vehicles and a TON of money spent on modified highways AND cars.
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This Electrified Road Charges Your EV as You Drive (popularmechanics.com) (https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a40313108/electrified-road-charges-your-ev-on-the-go/)
This is still very nascent of course, despite the glowing "ads" sometimes reported. It's a concept, and likely would need autonomous vehicles and a TON of money spent on modified highways AND cars.
Oh, it will totally work and scale and we can get there quickly, if you just handwave away the economics :57:
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I think so far stolen cables are rare events hyped in the news to an extent, but it could be a real problem in the future. I don't know the value of the copper when it's being sold black market, might be a few bucks.
I know nothing about the black market, but the lightning rod guy told me he is paying 4X more for copper than he was 4 years ago.
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copper is down slightly
June is usually a soft month for copper commodity
but, it will come back up to alltime highs again soon
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Here's another concept, EVs are equipped with arms that extend out a few feet with an induction coil on the end that closely rides on a panel to the side of the highway that charges the EV, they'd be something akin to guard rails. You'd still need autonomous, but a lot less infrastructure.
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an overhead wire like a trolley car would also work
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Can Solar Panels Charge An Electric Car? EV Charging Requirements Explained (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/can-solar-panels-charge-an-electric-car-ev-charging-requirements-explained/ar-BB1nuLFj?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=c1f8b59d4e31495680be892e08ebb3a4&ei=48)
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This is probably old news but It might interest some of you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A94fnlWOIiw
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good luck
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good luck
HUH? on what
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I really thought the article I posted would get more response.
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sorry, I'm busy listening to John Mellencamp on youtube
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I really thought the article I posted would get more response.
I don't look at videos, to be honest.
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I really thought the article I posted would get more response.
We've discussed the Toyota battery previously, there isn't much else to be said really until it materializes and can be independently tested. And it's of course possible is has some basic flaw.
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I really thought the article I posted would get more response.
Sorry, like Badge I rarely watch videos. I prefer to consume written content. I also saw the "clickbait" title and it was a bit of a turnoff. I usually try to stay away from anything with a clickbait title.
I just watched that video and it was a well-done explainer on solid state batteries. So thank you for posting and for following up to draw attention to it. Per your comment, in a way it is "old news" because people who follow the EV market know that solid state batteries carry enormous promise. But as the video points out, they currently don't have the technological or manufacturing capability to be a better solution than lithium ion. There are a LOT of startups and other companies, beyond Toyota, that are trying to crack that nut. If they are successful, it could make a major improvement in the BEV value proposition and thus adoption.
That said, the fact is that Toyota is seen in public as being "behind" in BEV, opting to spend their time with hybrids. So I can look at all the attention that Toyota specifically is giving to solid state batteries in press releases and public materials two ways:
- Trusting: Toyota is a very smart company with long-range plans. They see a BEV future but they believe that the short-term lithium ion technology is a dead end and that the future market will be dominated by solid state. So they have been biding their time supplying the market with ICEV and hybrid vehicles where there is a known, viable, and profitable, market that they excel in. All while in the background spending R&D funds on where they see the BEV market actually hitting a true transition point. I.e. they decided not to skate to where the puck is, they're skating to where it's going.
- Cynical: Toyota has been seen--rightly so--as behind in BEV development. Because they ARE behind, and they know it. They realize that being behind is a market risk, but by pointing to a solid state future they can both act like they're ahead on future tech, while also fomenting FUD that the current crop of lithium-ion based BEVs are "short term tech". And it's easy to do that, because all it takes is some press releases and marketing collateral, even if they end up missing the mark and solid state batteries come out 2, 5, or 10 years later than projected. It's a low-cost way to protect their reputation while steering customers to ICEV, conventional hybrid, and PHEV, which they have available to sell today.
Personally, I've learned over the last couple of decades been deep in the world of data storage technology not to be all that trusting of press releases that don't accompany actual products. There are a lot of cool technologies that are being worked on in labs and have the potential to revolutionize data storage; but getting it out of the lab and actually scaling it is a lot harder.
I see solid state batteries for electric vehicles in this category. The promise is there, but the products are not. When we actually see companies delivering on that promise, I'll sit up and take notice.
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that's why my comment of "good luck"
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Sorry, like Badge I rarely watch videos. I prefer to consume written content. I also saw the "clickbait" title and it was a bit of a turnoff. I usually try to stay away from anything with a clickbait title.
I just watched that video and it was a well-done explainer on solid state batteries. So thank you for posting and for following up to draw attention to it. Per your comment, in a way it is "old news" because people who follow the EV market know that solid state batteries carry enormous promise. But as the video points out, they currently don't have the technological or manufacturing capability to be a better solution than lithium ion. There are a LOT of startups and other companies, beyond Toyota, that are trying to crack that nut. If they are successful, it could make a major improvement in the BEV value proposition and thus adoption.
That said, the fact is that Toyota is seen in public as being "behind" in BEV, opting to spend their time with hybrids. So I can look at all the attention that Toyota specifically is giving to solid state batteries in press releases and public materials two ways:
- Trusting: Toyota is a very smart company with long-range plans. They see a BEV future but they believe that the short-term lithium ion technology is a dead end and that the future market will be dominated by solid state. So they have been biding their time supplying the market with ICEV and hybrid vehicles where there is a known, viable, and profitable, market that they excel in. All while in the background spending R&D funds on where they see the BEV market actually hitting a true transition point. I.e. they decided not to skate to where the puck is, they're skating to where it's going.
- Cynical: Toyota has been seen--rightly so--as behind in BEV development. Because they ARE behind, and they know it. They realize that being behind is a market risk, but by pointing to a solid state future they can both act like they're ahead on future tech, while also fomenting FUD that the current crop of lithium-ion based BEVs are "short term tech". And it's easy to do that, because all it takes is some press releases and marketing collateral, even if they end up missing the mark and solid state batteries come out 2, 5, or 10 years later than projected. It's a low-cost way to protect their reputation while steering customers to ICEV, conventional hybrid, and PHEV, which they have available to sell today.
Personally, I've learned over the last couple of decades been deep in the world of data storage technology not to be all that trusting of press releases that don't accompany actual products. There are a lot of cool technologies that are being worked on in labs and have the potential to revolutionize data storage; but getting it out of the lab and actually scaling it is a lot harder.
I see solid state batteries for electric vehicles in this category. The promise is there, but the products are not. When we actually see companies delivering on that promise, I'll sit up and take notice.
Thanks for your response
I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this but this seems like a slam dunk
The company thats first to use this type of battery will be way ahead of the others.
To be able to travel 700 miles on one charge and getting a 70% recharge in 10 minutes make
the EV market really catch fire.
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that's why my comment of "good luck"
and you spent so much effort in your pithy reply
thanks I'll remember it always
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nearly impossible to satisfy Texans in my experience
regardless of effort level
Therefore, I don't waste much effort
I'm a slacker
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There is of course more to battery technology than range and charging times, and those other features could be worse, we don't know.
- Cost
- Longevity
- Performance in adverse weather conditions
- Safety
- Recyclability
- Use of strategic materials (?)
- Power to Weight ratio
- Compatibility with current charging network (should be OK).
- ???
But if they can pull this off, it's likely to be significant. In the interim, I still think PHEVs will be more popular in the near term than full EVs.
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nearly impossible to satisfy Texans in my experience
regardless of effort level
Therefore, I don't waste much effort
I'm a slacker
Bulljive, you spend plenty of effort stirring the pot.
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but, that's for my satisfaction!
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Thanks for your response
I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this but this seems like a slam dunk
The company thats first to use this type of battery will be way ahead of the others.
To be able to travel 700 miles on one charge and getting a 70% recharge in 10 minutes make
the EV market really catch fire.
BTW I think "750 mile battery!" is going to prove to be more hype than reality. If you can get 70% recharge in 10 minutes, you don't need a 750 mile battery. As the video points out, that's pretty darn close to the refueling time for a gas car. Very few drivers are going to want to drive 700 mi between charges on a long trip anyway.
What I suspect will happen if they get that level of energy storage density, is that they'll reduce the size of the battery pack to shoot for a range of 300-400 miles. High enough to avoid range anxiety but small enough to minimize the size/weight/cost of the battery pack and get vehicle prices down closer to on par with ICEV.
Just my speculation of course. I think 750 miles of range will prove to be both unnecessary and uneconomical.
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I figure the current "usable" EV range is about between 20-80%. So, 400 miles range is really just 240 miles usable range, which may also be OK.
And that lower range has a copious "reserve" feature.
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yup, on gassers you don't run the tank down to less than 40 mile range often.
Folks get spooked when the gas light comes on
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Our Hyundai has a 14.3 gallon tank apparently, and is rated at about 37 mpg, but rarely hits that mark, it's more like 33 mpg. I start looking for gas on a trip when it shows under a quarter full, which is about 3 gallons left.
I once saw 39.5 mpg driving in the mountains according to the computer. It gets poorer fuel economy on the freeways oddly enough.
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Our Hyundai has a 14.3 gallon tank apparently, and is rated at about 37 mpg, but rarely hits that mark, it's more like 33 mpg. I start looking for gas on a trip when it shows under a quarter full, which is about 3 gallons left.
I once saw 39.5 mpg driving in the mountains according to the computer. It gets poorer fuel economy on the freeways oddly enough.
The gerbils under the hood can only do so much. :)
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not as aerodynamic as a sedan
pushing too much air at freeway speeds
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yup, on gassers you don't run the tank down to less than 40 mile range often.
Folks get spooked when the gas light comes on
I love when I'm pulling up to the Costco pump just as the car says "0 miles remaining". I guess I'm just a risk-taker :57:
(Granted when it says "0" remaining you've probably got 10+ miles of range left...)
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It's not as aerodynamic, nope, but on a freeway, there is no regen either. It has "adequate" power I think. 0-60 is reported to be 7.1 seconds. More importantly, I think, it responds if I need to go from say 50-70 without a lot of noise.
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She tells me she really likes it a lot and is glad we bought it. I do miss the GTI and shifting gears when I felt like it. Using regular gas is nicer.
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I love when I'm pulling up to the Costco pump just as the car says "0 miles remaining". I guess I'm just a risk-taker :57:
(Granted when it says "0" remaining you've probably got 10+ miles of range left...)
I'm sure your wife loves this
how many times have you had to walk in the past 10 years?
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She tells me she really likes it a lot and is glad we bought it. I do miss the GTI and shifting gears when I felt like it. Using regular gas is nicer.
sorry, the post about your wife was for the risktaker, betarhoalphadelta
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I'm sure your wife loves this
how many times have you had to walk in the past 10 years?
Zero actually. The only time I can recall ever running out of gas was in my old truck that I got rid of in 2012, and it had to have been 2-3 years before that. That was when I realized that the fuel gauge in that truck had malfunctioned, and would read 1/4 tank if you were anywhere between 1/4 tank and empty.
From that day forward I didn't even fix the fuel gauge. I just knew that I needed to get gas really soon when it got down to 1/4 tank. Never ran out of gas in the next several years with that truck.
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Our Hyundai has a 14.3 gallon tank apparently, and is rated at about 37 mpg, but rarely hits that mark, it's more like 33 mpg. I start looking for gas on a trip when it shows under a quarter full, which is about 3 gallons left.
I once saw 39.5 mpg driving in the mountains according to the computer. It gets poorer fuel economy on the freeways oddly enough.
If its just normal, everyday driving, I do the same but at 1/2 tank.
But if we are on a road trip, I try to get as far on a tank of gas as I can and generally don't start looking for gas until I am below a 1/4 tank, depending upon how populated the next 100 miles are. In other words, will I be able to find a gas station every 10 miles or so, or is it a remote enough area where I better not risk it.
When driving a significant distance, I try to eliminate as many stops as possible and will squeeze every mile out of a tank of gas that I can.
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heck, at an 8th of a tank on my gauge, the Impala's 18 gallon tank will still go another 100 miles or so.
I many times wait until the estimated miles is down to 50 or so. At 40 it just goes to "Needs Gas"
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19 gallons was getting me 550 miles on the highway.
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My truck has a 29 gal tank and I hate the thought of dropping $100 or more to fill it. So when it gets to 1/2 tank, I figure that $50-60 doesn't hurt as bad. ~???
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My truck has a 29 gal tank and I hate the thought of dropping $100 or more to fill it. So when it gets to 1/2 tank, I figure that $50-60 doesn't hurt as bad. ~???
My boat holds 90 gallons. The old one held 220.
That's an ouch.
Last fill a couple weeks ago took 60 gallons. $240.00. That's gas at their cost because we are members (we store with them).
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19 gallons was getting me 550 miles on the highway.
yup, I get over 500 miles on 18 gallons - about 28 mpg
I get about 400 in the Vette at 22mpg
21.4 for the first 2,000 miles in the Vette.
I'm OK with that because they aren't highway miles and I put my foot down every once in a while.
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I think I get about 22 on the highway in the Flex. Usually around town closer to maybe 18.
Not sure what I get in the lifted, topless, rolling brick of a Jeep. Not sure I give a crap either :57:
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(https://i.imgur.com/TkhQg5m.png)
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Well, you know that cows evolved for speed. Hunting grass on the high plains isn't for the slow!
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I'm pretty sure ancient "cows" were not like cows today.
(https://i.imgur.com/OAfUlTg.png)
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I'm pretty sure ancient "cows" were not like cows today.
(https://i.imgur.com/OAfUlTg.png)
Looks like a more ravenous, bloodthirsty, beast than anything since the velociraptor.
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Sorry, like Badge I rarely watch videos. I prefer to consume written content. I also saw the "clickbait" title and it was a bit of a turnoff. I usually try to stay away from anything with a clickbait title.
I just watched that video and it was a well-done explainer on solid state batteries. So thank you for posting and for following up to draw attention to it. Per your comment, in a way it is "old news" because people who follow the EV market know that solid state batteries carry enormous promise. But as the video points out, they currently don't have the technological or manufacturing capability to be a better solution than lithium ion. There are a LOT of startups and other companies, beyond Toyota, that are trying to crack that nut. If they are successful, it could make a major improvement in the BEV value proposition and thus adoption.
That said, the fact is that Toyota is seen in public as being "behind" in BEV, opting to spend their time with hybrids. So I can look at all the attention that Toyota specifically is giving to solid state batteries in press releases and public materials two ways:
- Trusting: Toyota is a very smart company with long-range plans. They see a BEV future but they believe that the short-term lithium ion technology is a dead end and that the future market will be dominated by solid state. So they have been biding their time supplying the market with ICEV and hybrid vehicles where there is a known, viable, and profitable, market that they excel in. All while in the background spending R&D funds on where they see the BEV market actually hitting a true transition point. I.e. they decided not to skate to where the puck is, they're skating to where it's going.
- Cynical: Toyota has been seen--rightly so--as behind in BEV development. Because they ARE behind, and they know it. They realize that being behind is a market risk, but by pointing to a solid state future they can both act like they're ahead on future tech, while also fomenting FUD that the current crop of lithium-ion based BEVs are "short term tech". And it's easy to do that, because all it takes is some press releases and marketing collateral, even if they end up missing the mark and solid state batteries come out 2, 5, or 10 years later than projected. It's a low-cost way to protect their reputation while steering customers to ICEV, conventional hybrid, and PHEV, which they have available to sell today.
Personally, I've learned over the last couple of decades been deep in the world of data storage technology not to be all that trusting of press releases that don't accompany actual products. There are a lot of cool technologies that are being worked on in labs and have the potential to revolutionize data storage; but getting it out of the lab and actually scaling it is a lot harder.
I see solid state batteries for electric vehicles in this category. The promise is there, but the products are not. When we actually see companies delivering on that promise, I'll sit up and take notice.
Very glad to know that I’m not the only one who prefers the written word over videos.
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I can't believe 12,000 people bought this thing.
Tesla recalls nearly 12,000 Cybertruck electric pickup trucks (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/shopping/tesla-recalls-nearly-12-000-cybertruck-electric-pickup-trucks/ar-BB1oQvHr?ocid=BingNewsSerp)
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Rivian: Volkswagen takes $1 billion stake in EV maker (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/25/volkswagen-rivian-stake.html)
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Prospect of low-priced Chinese EVs reaching US from Mexico poses threat to automakers
https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automakers-tariffs-f526c5e52b95b624bb4b15d2038e289a (https://apnews.com/article/china-vehicles-mexico-evs-automakers-tariffs-f526c5e52b95b624bb4b15d2038e289a)
The trade deal that Beijing could potentially exploit — the U.S.-Mexico-Canada Agreement — was negotiated by the Trump administration and enacted in 2020. Its rules could let Chinese autos assembled in Mexico enter the United States, either duty-free or at a nominal 2.5% tariff rate. Either way, China could sell its EVs well below typical U.S. prices.
(https://i.imgur.com/cacE1NM.jpeg)
China has so far taken a daunting lead. It accounted for nearly 62% of the 10.4 million battery-powered EVs that were produced worldwide last year. The United States, at No. 2, made about 1 million — less than 10% of the total, according to the consulting and analysis firm GlobalData.
In achieving technological breakthroughs while holding down costs, Chinese automakers have made remarkable strides. China’s BYD last year introduced a small EV called the Seagull that sells for just $12,000 in China ($21,000 for a version sold in some Latin American countries). Considered a marvel of engineering efficiency, its lightweight design allows the Seagull to go farther per charge on a smaller battery. BYD has said it’s considering building a factory in Mexico — but only for the Mexican market.
Critics note that BYD and other Chinese EV makers have achieved their cost efficiencies thanks to heavy government subsidies. Beijing spent 953 billion Chinese renminbi (more than $130 billion at current exchange rates) on EVs and other green vehicles from 2009 through 2021, according to researchers at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
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F China. They can suck on this, along with all the fools promoting EV's here.
Nearly half of American EV owners want to switch back to gas-powered vehicle, McKinsey data shows (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/nearly-half-of-american-ev-owners-want-to-switch-back-to-gas-powered-vehicle-mckinsey-data-shows/ar-BB1oVgjo?ocid=BingNewsSerp)
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Of the folks who bought EVs and now want out of them, I wonder how many live in apartments or condos and discovered the charging cost issue I note.
I suspect the ideal customer for an EV is a two car household owning or living in a home where they can charge, and the second car, the EV, is basically an urban vehicle so Dad can get to work and back, and a few other chores etc. The other car would be a Chevy Subdivision for the Rugrats and Mom.
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Nearly half of American EV owners want to switch back to gas-powered vehicle, McKinsey data shows (ktvu.com) (https://www.ktvu.com/news/american-ev-owners-gas-powered-vehicles?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR26kBE9tTrn3nEPwY2j6N7TJ3CJO88aldK6ntMjwzybBIxYcOqKq1tIxIU_aem_AGOW2k9tkMco4_pjc7GHDw)
The biggest reason EV owners cited for wanting to return to owning a gas-powered vehicle was the lack of available charging infrastructure (35%); the second-highest reason cited was that the total cost of owning an EV was too high (34%). Nearly 1 in 3, 32%, said their driving patterns on long-distance trips were affected too much due to having an EV.
I would love to see a breakout by folks who live in a single family vs apartment dwellers. I saw a new EV here, making about 6 I think. I have not spoken with any owners of them. I see them plugged in outside, and I've read how much that company charges per kWhr, it's 48 cents per on average. As I note often, even if we make it 40 cents and use the Tesla 3's 25 kWhr per hundred miles, the math isn't very attractive, to me. It's about the same cost as my CUV. At 48 cents, it's worse.
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2024 Chevrolet Equinox EV First Drive Review: A Better Bolt (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevrolet-equinox-ev-first-drive-review/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0zl9jBgt1OSr5ZOyyTMfUmpDwS-3PaHQL9nsHOksqsJRcrmyKEGIFzIxM_aem_y8HDyDWru9vGbQb7ocVopA)
Seems like a decent enough EV, still pricey even with the $7500 tax credit, and still the problem with recharging away from home.
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What Are the Downsides in the Rush to EVs and EV Adoption? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/ev-downsides-ev-adoption-electric-car-issues-concerns/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0jcbMGq5OcEW3nVE_aXCcToQI-NPt4zUn4CVnHS5NUzumyZsYBdt-xqUk_aem_7INzak-VgUCqxyi08cqyug)
A 2022 study (https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.16372) found that roughly one out of every four chargers in California was broken.
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stolen copper cables ;)
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You Can Lease A New Car For $19 Per Month, But It's A Nissan Leaf (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/you-can-lease-a-new-car-for-19-per-month-but-its-a-ni-1851574790?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1720022403&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3hMzBQqEKRFcv9515GNaSXiLAEwCmX6mx-f_bV7rEZgqykeVJRKQZkcag_aem_PCyPgfSyXIp4wLZlHe90SA)
This looks like an excellent deal for the right person.
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(https://i.imgur.com/LMadPHF.jpeg)
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That's good news.
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Car engines are already pretty "high tech". I can't think of anything that would meaningfully improve them.
They may be talking about going the PHEV route. I doubt they are talking about using hydrogen (other than in some test kind of car).
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Goldman is predicting a highly significant battery pack price reduction over the next 1-2 years and then continued smaller reductions through 2030:
https://www.goldmansachs.com/intelligence/pages/even-as-ev-sales-slow-lower-battery-prices-expect.html
(https://i.imgur.com/o1bPc7M.png)
This to me indicates two things:
- With a close to 40% reduction over about a 2-year span, we'll see BEVs more closely approach price parity with ICEV by the 2025-2026 time frame, and possibly even start to be lower priced than an equivalent ICEV as we approach 2030.
- This will absolutely kneecap resale value for BEVs in the next 3-5 years, as the rapid early decline in battery prices, will lead to cost-cutting for new vehicles. This will force sellers to discount used BEVs significantly more than what would be expected for ICEV depreciation, to be able to move them relative to rapidly-decreasing new BEV prices.
Could be an interesting couple of years.
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Get rid of the government subsidies and I'm good with that.
People like me don't want to give money to people that want EV's.
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So, we're at about $110 now and that could approach about $75 by 2030? A typical battery pack needs about 80 kWhrs, so about $10,000 today, and perhaps $6,000 in four years, right? That isn't a huge decrease, but it's certainly a piece of it.
Would that get to price parity? With the $7500 from US, probably so.
I see all these cost comparisons on line and I've never seen one yet address the cost of recharging AWAY FROM HOME for apt dwellers.
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So, we're at about $110 now and that could approach about $75 by 2030? A typical battery pack needs about 80 kWhrs, so about $10,000 today, and perhaps $6,000 in four years, right? That isn't a huge decrease, but it's certainly a piece of it.
Would that get to price parity? With the $7500 from US, probably so.
I see all these cost comparisons on line and I've never seen one yet address the cost of recharging AWAY FROM HOME for apt dwellers.
Bear in mind we were closer to 150 from 2020-2023. They're talking about 2024 maybe in the 115 range in that chart but I think it's still closer to 133 right now. They show 69 for 2030, which would basically be half of 2023 battery pack cost. I think it's more like taking $6K+ out of what we think of for 'cost of an EV', not $4K. I think that's close to parity.
Which for anyone living in a single family home (~70% of Americans) means a likely lower total cost of ownership.
Still not a slam dunk for apartment dwellers, of course.
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I can see that. A good reason not to buy one today. Maybe by 2030 they will be roughly the same price.
So, would I buy one then? Probably not. Let's say I want a vehicle like a Honda CRV, or our Hyundai Tucson (which stickered over $40 K, it's loaded). If an EV version equivalent to a CRV cost say $30 K and the same as a similarly equipped gas CRV, would I buy one? I'd have to do the math on that, and of course assess how infrastructure chances and see if that $7500 is still around.
Let's say the EV uses 28 kWhr per hundred miles (that's being generous for a not very aerodynamic boxy vehicle). Maybe charging away from home costs are lower, say 30 cents per kWhr. I'm at $8.40 per hundred miles. A CRV like PHEV wouuld probably cost more per hundred miles because the gas engine would kick in, but then gas prices are a factor. Our hybrid would need about 3 gallons per hundred miles, around here at $3 per, that's $9.00.
Then I'd think about insurance costs, repair costs, depreciation, etc. It's not a slam dunk for me.
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I'll just wait and see
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U.S.-backed EV charger network grows slowly despite $5 billion | Automotive News (autonews.com) (https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/us-backed-ev-charger-network-grows-slowly-despite-5-billion?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=soc-pay&utm_campaign=lower%3Aevergreen%3Alow%3Asub%3Areg%3Aq2&utm_content=Facebook_Desktop_Feed%3Alearn&utm_term=<na>&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0BMAABHWzuflidbPEsA_cMnuOV_cyU-goPI3iQhKzdCx-cUTS0hB6LZ4g6EoJQOQ_aem_yFReWmkxIQwYsnal1UiMJg)
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Electrify America Is Testing an 85% Charge Limit at Some Stations (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a61544767/electrify-america-testing-85-percent-charge-limit/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0IbPgqFkssfLzwaij6sdSPO_9C-K42ekUl00tYxniR3ZH7B_CyvyD3xvU_aem_BQ1G6JDrcYP8oGa25i2enA)
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Email from Hertz:
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swapping them out because of high mileage I suppose
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swapping them out because of high mileage I suppose
No, low demand, very low demand, selling them at a major loss not to be replaced.
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replaced with a plug in hybrid
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I saw this article a while ago and this has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time now:
https://www.votwitter.com/future-perfect/350382/gas-mileage-fuel-economy-mpg-gphm-gas-guzzlers
Basically this is Vox's push for using "Gallons per 100 miles" instead of the traditional "MPG" that we are all familiar with. Gallons per mile is a MUCH more useful figure mathematically than MPG but GPM ends up being a tiny fraction and people seem to have trouble understanding those so they get around that issue by making it "Gallons per 100 Miles".
Obviously you can convert back-and-forth mathematically.
I just bought a Suburban. According to the EPA it gets 15/22 City/Highway. We also own a Honda Odyssey which gets 19/28.
Pop quiz, what saves more gas:
- Driving the Odyssey instead of the Suburban on a highway trip, or
- Driving a car that gets 38 MPG Highway instead of the Odyssey?
If you picked #2 you got tricked by the MPG issue. It seems like getting an extra 10 MPG is better than getting an extra 6 MPG so it *SEEMS* like getting 38 vs 28 is a bigger deal than getting 28 vs 22 but it isn't because you don't drive further. You are going to drive the same distance so the relevant figure you need is "GPM" or some derivative (like Gallons per 100 mi) not MPG.
For another example:
Lets say I am going on a trip with my wife, our four kids, our nephew, and his wife. That makes eight people. Suppose that we can all fit in the Suburban but NOT the Odyssey so our choices are:
- Take the Suburban, or
- Take the Odyssey AND a Toyota Prius that gets 57/56 City/Highway.
Mathematically, MPG's aren't useful. Here they are (highway since I said this was a trip):
- Option #1, the Suburban gets 22 MPG.
- Option #2, the Odyssey gets 28 MPG and the Prius gets 56 MPG.
So which is better? You can't tell from MPG's but you CAN tell from GPM, here are the Highway Gallons per Mile:
- Option #1, the Suburban uses 4.5 Gallons per 100 miles.
- Option #2, the Odyssey uses 3.5 Gallons per 100 miles and the Prius uses 1.8 Gallons per 100 miles for a combined total of 5.3 Gallons per 100 miles.
Taking the Suburban instead of the Odyssey AND the Prius would save us almost a gallon of gas per 100 miles.
The biggest problem, as the article explains, is that the focus on MPG's tends to lead to a focus on getting improvements that, in reality, are basically irrelevant. For example, if you could redesign that Prius to get 86 MPG Highway instead of 56 MPG Highway that sounds like a REALLY big deal but frankly, it isn't:
- Improving the Prius' MPG's from 56 to 86 saves 0.62 Gallons per 100 miles.
- Improving the Suburban's MPG's from 22 to 26 saves 0.70 Gallons per 100 miles.
For a while GMC offered a hybrid Suburban/Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. At the time I thought that was a GREAT idea and the data says that it was but the consumers didn't care so they didn't sell and GM quit offering it.
Part of the problem, IMHO was that GM screwed up by putting a BIGGER engine in the Hybrid which minimized the gas savings. For 2013 they offered it in the Tahoe and in a 4x4 Tahoe there were two options for drivetrain:
- 6.0L Gas V8 Hybrid that got 20/23 and
- 5.3L Gas V8 that got 15/21
Even with the larger engine in the Hybrid, that still is a significant improvement especially around town but it doesn't look like a significant improvement until you convert to GPM:
- Hybrid used 5.0 Gallons per 100 miles City and 4.3 Gallons per 100 miles Highway.
- Non-hybrid used 6.7 Gallons per 100 miles City and 4.8 Gallons per 100 miles Highway.
IMHO, the smarter play would have been to offer the Hybrid with a SMALLER engine using the electric as a "helper" when needed. In that case the gap would have been much larger but it *STILL* would have "looked" minor when viewed in MPG's.
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Nice analysis.
Some of have discussed a hybrid with a Diesel that is fully electric on power and the Diesel just runs at constant RPM when needed to turn a generator.
Trains.
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Nice analysis.
Thank you.
Some of have discussed a hybrid with a Diesel that is fully electric on power and the Diesel just runs at constant RPM when needed to turn a generator.
Trains.
Trains don't run at a constant RPM because they don't (or at least traditional diesel-electric locomotives do not) have any storage capacity (batteries) on board. The diesel still has to operate at a wide range of RPM because the power is generated when used.
Also, this basic method of power delivery was utilized by the Navy 100 years ago. It was steam-electric not diesel-electric. They called it "Turbo Electric" and the advantage was that it eliminated the need for bulky and heavy propeller shafts running the length of the ship. It also eliminated the need for the steam engines to be located on the aforementioned propeller shafts and aligned with them. Instead, the steam engines could be located anywhere and in any alignment then you just needed to run comparatively lightweight power cables from the steam-powered generators to the electric motors that actually spun the shafts.
This matters a LOT to the Navy and if you want to know why look up the HMS Prince of Wales. They took Torpedo damage but had stabilized the situation and *PROBABLY* could have survived but the Captain ordered the outboard propeller restarted and the bent Propeller shaft destroyed the bulkheads from the stern all the way forward to the foremost engine thus allowing progressive flooding from the already flooded stern compartments all the way to the bow and PoW rests on the bottom of the sea as a result.
Back to cars. I REALLY like the idea of a hybrid Diesel where the Diesel runs at a constant RPM (and resistance) to turn a generator. Benefits:
- The Diesel engine can be designed to be both cheaper and more efficient because it does not need to be able to function at the wide range of various RPM and resistance situations encountered with a traditional ICE set-up. Instead, it only needs to function at one RPM/resistance situation to charge the battery and the battery can handle the fact that this will sometimes be too much and other times too little charge.
- Architecture of the vehicle is much more flexible. With no direct mechanical link between the ICE and the drive wheels you don't HAVE to mount the engine in such a way as to facilitate that mechanical link. The engine/generator can be mounted anywhere and in any alignment.
- You don't have the range anxiety problem that exists with a pure electric.
- You could offer a cord and make this a PHEV where it effectively functions as a pure EV for short trips but can still handle longer trips without issues.
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Seems Honda already does this (although not diesel):
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-1503019bd8a757ea08267d7944378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system
Propulsion and Generator Motors
Honda’s two-motor hybrid system can operate as either a series or parallel hybrid. The majority of the time, the system operates as a series hybrid. Its electric propulsion motor drives the wheels directly, while the gasoline engine connected to the electric generator/starter motor functions as an electrical generator, supplying power to the hybrid battery and/or the propulsion motor. Under certain driving conditions, such as steady-state cruising at highway speeds, the system switches seamlessly to parallel hybrid operation, with the gasoline engine connecting to the front axle via a clutch, and vehicle speed is proportional to engine speed (rpm).
During braking or when coasting, the propulsion motor converts the kinetic energy of the decelerating vehicle into electrical energy to recharge the battery. The brake system seamlessly coordinates mechanical and regenerative braking with an electric-servo braking system for natural, linear, and responsive brake performance and pedal feel.
In addition to supplying electric energy to the propulsion motor, the generator motor can also be used to recharge the battery under certain conditions. The generator motor also restarts the gasoline engine when resuming travel after idle-stop has engaged.
So the generator motor CAN drive the wheels via a clutch system, but most of the time the generator motor is purely applying electricity to charge the battery and/or directly to the propulsion motor (as medina points out similar to trains).
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(https://i.imgur.com/zmWwj4g.png)
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Ford to expand large truck production to Canada (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/18/ford-canada-large-truck-production.html)
Ford Motor (https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/F/) will expand production of its large Super Duty trucks to a Canadian plant that was previously set to be converted into an all-electric vehicle hub.
The new plans include investing about $3 billion to expand Super Duty production, including $2.3 billion at Ford’s Oakville Assembly Complex in Ontario, Canada, Ford said Thursday. The remaining investment will be used to increase production at supporting facilities in the U.S. and Canada, the company said.
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'Murica!
(https://i.imgur.com/niXUqAG.png)
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You don't need that.
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'Murica!
[img width=274.381 height=377]https://i.imgur.com/niXUqAG.png[/img]
According to @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) 's link:
Built in Canada, eh!
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I don't want one
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1949 Cadillac Meets 2024 Cadillac Lyriq: Chrome to Cobalt (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/vehicle-genres/1949-cadillac-2024-cadillac-lyriq-ev-mt75/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1kWPqia5OjKO_LX3Wm3vswmInAHCUg9TimMarEQb5j1rVKztEkmiuQiA0_aem_5357nQqTBu8zyWi6UigHTg)
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You don't need that.
In this specific case, you are absolutely right. The F150 handles all of my needs quite nicely.
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Are any of the Big 3 trucks notably deficient to the others? That might be the most competitive market in the US.
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Are any of the Big 3 trucks notably deficient to the others? That might be the most competitive market in the US.
Calvin pisses on Chevy, if the decals are accurate.
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Are any of the Big 3 trucks notably deficient to the others? That might be the most competitive market in the US.
I think all three make products that cover 90% of the market. Beyond that, each of them differentiate a little bit.
For example, all three make a "1/2 ton" crew cab pickup that's capable of meeting my towing requirements. But at the time I was purchasing, only Ford had a "supercrew cab" option where the back seat has about 8-12" more legroom than its competitors. Since I knew that my truck would not only need to be able to tow, but it would also serve as our primary family vehicle, the extra rear legroom was among my primary purchasing concerns.
And other manufacturers stress different things on the fringes to capture some of the niche markets, as well.
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Ford trucks usually ride a little rougher (stiffer) than Chevys
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Is there another three pronged more competitive market out there in the US?
Most of our "stuff" has a zillion options that are mostly decent.
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EVs Break Sales Records, but They Still Don't Meet Projections (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60278764/ev-sales-challenges/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0wZtNOojzMv_2K4bua_udsHkayifNl6onvgVIRKxVVG11sEsi0fF48Kmc_aem_c1cr98SrljxzIStnYhi0YA)
I'd like to chat with a new EV owner who lives in an Apt/Condo about their cost per mile.
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EVs Are Here to Stay. Deal With It. (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/evs-here-to-stay-issues-improvements-electric-car-future/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2XRwR4rSRquPTQEpyBsaLjTWEEzH3NmJg9U6kQCNW2IPv2gpj-5N6Ogq4_aem_6vGs45k-UbeOzO06b6nvkQ)
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I'm dealing with it just fine
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(https://i.imgur.com/ZfDmQCY.png)
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Our hybrid will go about 100 feet on battery. A PHEV will go 35 miles or so. I'd be interested, I think, in a PHEV with maybe 10 miles of range, lower weight, lower cost, easy to charge with 110v. I don't know that ~35 is optimal for everyone. Our 100 feet is not enough to be notable really, but it gets good mpgs around town, not so great on the highway.
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Did you pay extra for the 100 feet?
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The hybrid costs about $1500 more than the base gas model, but there are advantages beyond the 100 feet of course.
The 100 feet is obviously irrelevant. If we had a 100v plug in the garage, a 10 mile range PHEV might work for us. Ours won't plug in of course.
2023 Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/tucson-hybrid-2023)
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Add that popped up on my weather page this morning
It'd be interesting to see the calculation
probably not using the fast chager shown(https://i.imgur.com/4DmIK2O.png)
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As I keep noting, charging at home would result in savings, at least in most states. As you note above, that EV Go station would be charging probably 30-60 cents per kWhr. At 30 cents, you'd be saving a bit in most states, if you can find 30 cents. I'm told Tesla chargers cost 25 cents, which would be nice.
My cost per hundred miles is around $9 for a small "SUV" (CUV). A very efficient EV would need 25 kWhrs, for the same distance, many are at 30 kWhrs.
I do think this is one reason folks who bought EVs say they want to go back to gas.
Best case, Tesla 3 needing 25 kWhrs at 25 cents, great = $6.25 for a savings of $2.75 per hundred miles (charging at home would be better).
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General Motors (GM) earnings Q2 2024 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/23/general-motors-gm-earnings-q2-2024.html)
EV comments at the bottom, still a drag on earnings. If they had taken the Toyota/Honda approach, they'd be better off at the moment anyway. Were it me, I'd focus on PHEVs and hybrids, especially for trucks and SUVs.
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The $200 Billion Electric School Bus Bust | RealClearEnergy (https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2023/05/29/the_200_billion_electric_school_bus_bust_902230.html)
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noticed a Ford Lightning on the highway today
looked better than the Mustang
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What's Next for Electric Vehicles as Market Turns Murky? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61143278/electric-vehicle-market-outlook/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwY2xjawEZxvBleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHQTFMO6CB339vyNUqZZIIAmZkya-9w5KbHklxD2lX9CouPk0PQS1WWsyaQ_aem_btCrL49EgQtoSLyxVW6-mw)
"This will be especially important over the next 10 to 15 years as ICE continues to dominate but battery-electric powertrains will be necessarily phased in over time."
The auto market will become EV-centric no earlier than 2040, Fiorani says, and until then "a considerable number of vehicles" will have internal-combustion power.
GM CEO Mary Barra was asked (https://www.autoweek.com/news/a45988111/gm-ceo-barra-disappointed-with-2023-electric-vehicle-production/) about this in an exclusive interview on NBC Nightly News recently. Her answer prompted the misleading online link to the NBC News interview, "All-electric commitment will now play out over decades, GM CEO says."
Barra's reply was, "We'll be guided by the customers. It will be led by what customers want."
A day later, NBC News changed the online headline to read, "GM CEO says commitment to all-electric fleet remains firm despite industry-wide sales slowdown."
A spokesman confirmed to Autoweek that GM still plans an all-EV lineup by 2035. He also confirmed GM remains on-target to produce 1 million EVs in North America by 2025, and that it expects to build 200,000 to 300,000 EVs on the continent this year.
The "we" in Barra's statement that "we'll be guided by the customers" refers to the industry as a whole rather than GM, the spokesman said.
Shortly after, Automotive News reported that new EV motor production planned for GM's St. Catharines Propulsion Plant in Ontario, Canada, was being delayed.
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noticed a Ford Lightning on the highway today
looked better than the Mustang
That Mustang ain't no Mustang. :96:
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Saw one of these today on the road. https://www.freightliner.com/trucks/ecascadia/
(https://i.imgur.com/JxaJLTG.png)
But don't worry, Tesla, I'm sure at SOME point you'll actually sell your Semi.
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Also saw another Cybertruck.
One might think that as many of them I've seen, that over time they'd soften and start to look more normal and less hideous.
Not sure if that day will ever come, but it sure as hell wasn't today.
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The Rivians look odd to me, but not THAT odd. I've seen two cyberwhatevers now, they look uglier in person than in photos.
So do I, to be fair.
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I probably see 2 or 3 Cybertrucks per day now. They're so hideous.
I really like the lines on most of the Rivian products, other than their weird front (non)grill/headlight assemblies.
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We have some Amazon delivery vans that are BEVs here now, I am very in favor of that application.
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we've been told
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(https://i.imgur.com/AJgvXep.png)
Hmmm ....
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Samsung Soonert?
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I miss that guy.
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We all do.
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(https://i.imgur.com/AJgvXep.png)
Hmmm ....
Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage.
The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs.
But progress is progress.
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Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage.
The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs.
But progress is progress.
Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech.
Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.
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Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech.
Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.
Yep, but one of the things with introducing very new technology is that you often don't know what you don't know until you start to get into the productization phase. But once you get there (and you have multiple competing producers), the advancement of the technology happens much more quickly.
It's the basic technology s-curve idea. We're probably getting pretty far on the right side of the traditional lithium ion s-curve, bumping up against the limits of energy density. Solid state is the start of a new s-curve, but until you get out of the lab and into producing products you don't hit the steep part of the slope.
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My issue is unrelated to battery stuff of course. I don't know how it can be fixed.
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Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage.
The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs.
But progress is progress.
Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech.
Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.
Yep, but one of the things with introducing very new technology is that you often don't know what you don't know until you start to get into the productization phase. But once you get there (and you have multiple competing producers), the advancement of the technology happens much more quickly.
It's the basic technology s-curve idea. We're probably getting pretty far on the right side of the traditional lithium ion s-curve, bumping up against the limits of energy density. Solid state is the start of a new s-curve, but until you get out of the lab and into producing products you don't hit the steep part of the slope.
I agree with all of this. The stats listed basically meet or exceed modern ICE:
- 600 mi range is on the high side for ICE vehicles
- 9 minute charging sounds about equivalent to a stop at the gas station
- 20 year life is more-or-less equivalent to ICE vehicles. Ie, by that age most vehicles will be wearing out elsewhere so the battery dying isn't THAT big of a deal, you'd need a new one anyway.
Unlike current tech, I think this could actually replace ICE for nearly all users rather than being a niche thing that is ok for some consumers and/or fine as one vehicle for a multi-car family.
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My issue is unrelated to battery stuff of course. I don't know how it can be fixed.
It can be fixed if the charge times, efficiency, and cost all improve "enough". As I understand it, your critical hold-up is the cost (and perhaps time) of charging away from home. Well there are multiple ways that can be alleviated:
- Charge rates: Charge rates of solid state batteries are faster. For example if you can go from 10-80% in 9 minutes, that's close enough to on par with filling up a gas tank that one of the critical concerns with away-from-home or road trip charging is no longer a concern. Also when charge times are so fast, it alleviates range anxiety.
- Efficiency: Solid state batteries are more energy dense. While some talk about the idea of "600 mile range", the opposite way of looking at this is that you can have a car with a 300 mile range, fast-charge capability, and a much lighter battery pack. Reducing vehicle weight will go a long way to improving efficiency, as measured by how much range you get per kWh of electricity. So you get more miles out of the same amount of money spent on public charging than today's EVs.
- Acquisition cost: Here is the harder aspect, and the least well known. When you look at BEVs, you're looking at them being more expensive than ICEVs today for a comparable vehicle, so even if the "fueling" of the car is saving you money, you have a higher initial expenditure to recoup over time (which is much harder if you rely on 100% public charging networks). However, although solid state batteries TODAY are much more expensive, this may come down closer to parity over time--and because they're much more energy dense, you can have smaller battery packs to achieve the same range. So again instead of paying more than today's EV price for a 600-mile range vehicle, you may end up paying less than today's EV price with the new technology for a 300-mile range vehicle. Depending on how the technology matures, at some point it may cross to be cheaper than an ICEV. Now even if "fueling" is a wash between public chargers vs gas stations, you're saving money buying a less expensive BEV than a comparable ICEV.
We've seen this in my industry. In the PC world, HDDs have been eclipsed by SSDs. Why? Because while HDDs are actually still MUCH cheaper on a $/TB basis when you're talking about large-scale data center acquisitions, most PC users don't need terabytes of local storage. They need maybe 250-500GB of local storage, and MANY can get by with smaller, say 120GB. The issue with an HDD is that there's a certain floor of cost that you can't get below, and that floor today is at a capacity point (1TB) beyond what most users need. So while SSDs are still "more expensive" than HDDs on a $/TB basis, if you don't need the minimum capacity of an HDD, the actual $/unit cost can be lower. When you then add in the other advantages of SSD in a PC environment (higher performance, lower power, smaller size, less weight, no moving parts, no noise, etc), it then becomes an easy decision, and it's why HDDs simply do not ship in notebooks and desktop computers any longer except in very rare applications.
If we hit a tipping point with solid state batteries where the powertrain becomes cheaper than ICEV for "adequate" range, AND we see charge rates that are close to parity with filling your gas tank, that's the tipping point where BEVs will see extremely rapid adoption IMHO. It will be significant savings for anyone who can charge at home off the grid, and close to equivalent cost for those who can't, potentially better if they can make use of slower[/cheaper] public L2 chargers rather than rapid chargers.
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Let's presume all that happens, and an EV is the same cost, to me, as the ICE car I'd like to own, probably the EV would have better acceleration.
Let's say the average cost for ME is 40 cents per kWhr, and it takes 25 of them to go 100 miles. Obviously, that's $10. My current vehicle will use about 3 gallons per 100 miles, and my last fillup was under $3 per at Costco ($2.85). It looks to me like a MAJOR issue for apartment dwellers, and I don't see a fix other than subsidies and credits. Then I'd probably also be paying extra at tag time as well.
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Let's presume all that happens, and an EV is the same cost, to me, as the ICE car I'd like to own, probably the EV would have better acceleration.
Let's say the average cost for ME is 40 cents per kWhr, and it takes 25 of them to go 100 miles. Obviously, that's $10. My current vehicle will use about 3 gallons per 100 miles, and my last fillup was under $3 per at Costco ($2.85). It looks to me like a MAJOR issue for apartment dwellers, and I don't see a fix other than subsidies and credits. Then I'd probably also be paying extra at tag time as well.
But what if the reduction in weight for the battery pack means that the EV that today takes 25 kWh to go 100 miles only takes 20, or maybe even 15? If it's 20 kWh, now you're only spending $8/100mi. If 15, now you're spending $6/100mi, compared to $8.55/100mi for ICEV.
That to me is the big advantage of reducing the battery pack weight, which is something that solid state can give you.
Oh, and reducing battery pack weight also improves acceleration. So you can either get more acceleration from the same size electric motor, or you can go to a smaller, lighter, less costly electric motor and maintain the same acceleration.
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Maybe so, good point, but "break even" isn't enough to sway me really, I'd need an advantage, at $6 I'd start to consider it. And we'll see how many kWhrs a new vehicle will need, some of this of course is just normal resistance and can't easily be changed.
I picked 40 cents, the average for the unit downstairs is 48 cents.
Our Tuscon is not very aerodynamic, I notice mpgs really drop when the speed goes above 75.
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Maybe so, good point, but "break even" isn't enough to sway me really, I'd need an advantage, at $6 I'd start to consider it. And we'll see how many kWhrs a new vehicle will need, some of this of course is just normal resistance and can't easily be changed.
I picked 40 cents, the average for the unit downstairs is 48 cents.
Our Tuscon is not very aerodynamic, I notice mpgs really drop when the speed goes above 75.
Honestly, you have a new car. There's no reason for you to consider replacement for several years, at least.
And you say you drive what, 6K mi/yr? I don't think fueling costs should really sway you anyway. At 33 mpg and $2.85/gal that's 181 gallons per year, and works out to $518. At 25 kWh/100mi that's 1500 kWh to go 6000 miles, and at .40 per it's $600. Even at .48 per it's $720. Is $200/year difference enough to sway you on a vehicle choice?
(BTW with EVs you also avoid a fair bit of maintenance, in that they don't require oil changes and don't chew up your brakes as significantly by using regen braking--so those are other savings that are beyond fueling costs.)
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The Tuscon has regen braking, and no, I don't want a new car anyway, I am more thinking about others in my situation who do.
They could buy a PHEV in California and perhaps come out ahead.
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If we hit a tipping point with solid state batteries where the powertrain becomes cheaper than ICEV for "adequate" range, AND we see charge rates that are close to parity with filling your gas tank, that's the tipping point where BEVs will see extremely rapid adoption IMHO. It will be significant savings for anyone who can charge at home off the grid, and close to equivalent cost for those who can't, potentially better if they can make use of slower[/cheaper] public L2 chargers rather than rapid chargers.
This, exactly.
Your other comments about range vs efficiency vs acceleration are issues that I think will be sorted out by the market. Some users will want lots of range, others will want maximum efficiency, others will want the excitement of acceleration. Some of that simply depends on where you live. If you are in densely populated SoCal then range might not be a big deal since there are chargers everywhere but if you live in Eastern Montana range would probably be your #1 concern because there might only be half a dozen public chargers within a 500 mile radius.
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By the time an EV has this battery I suspect chargers will be a lot more available.
This presumes the battery has no "issues".
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This, exactly.
Your other comments about range vs efficiency vs acceleration are issues that I think will be sorted out by the market. Some users will want lots of range, others will want maximum efficiency, others will want the excitement of acceleration. Some of that simply depends on where you live. If you are in densely populated SoCal then range might not be a big deal since there are chargers everywhere but if you live in Eastern Montana range would probably be your #1 concern because there might only be half a dozen public chargers within a 500 mile radius.
Agreed. I think a lot of the initial push for acceleration (driven by Tesla) was due to two things. First, in order to get car buyers excited about BEVs, they needed a differentiating factor. Instant torque and near-supercar acceleration is absolutely that. Second, Elon Musk is an overgrown man-child, and so he wants fast 0-60 numbers.
I think the rest of the market, as it matures, has gotten to the point where acceleration is good, but it doesn't HAVE to be a sub-4.0 0-60 time to excite a buyer. Most buyers don't need that and aren't willing to pay extra for it. You can have the advantages of EV (instant low-end torque, merging power, passing power, etc) but don't need blistering rates.
Same thing with range. The big concern for many people was range anxiety. I think for a lot of people worried about that, they opted for PHEV. But for those who could charge at home, I think many of them realized they'd go months between needing to fill that gas tank, and started to realize that 200-300 miles of BEV range was MORE than enough for use. So IMHO all this talk about Samsung and the "600 mile range" battery doesn't mean that BEV makers are going to start making vehicles with 600 miles of range. It's too expensive, and most people don't need it.
The people who live out in Eastern Montana who need 600 miles of range, or people like utee who regularly tow large loads, are outliers. Maybe a BEV won't work for those people. But they're a small portion of the population, which over decades in the US has increasingly urbanized anyway. So while I don't think their needs should be ignored, it's also not necessarily something that I think will meaningfully brake EV adoption for the masses.
By the time an EV has this battery I suspect chargers will be a lot more available.
This presumes the battery has no "issues".
I agree. Chargers will continue to be built and installed.
I should point out that I'm thinking of a future where the $/kWh of battery tech drops enough that BEV is equivalent or cheaper than a comparable ICEV. I don't expect this to happen soon. If the first commercialized solid state batteries don't really hit the market until 2027, and are a highly expensive niche product, one can't expect a BEV price crossover by 2030. Maybe not even 2035.
If I think about this purely as a wild assed guess (WAG), I could see a crossover point between 2035-2040. That said, as prices narrow and as charging infrastructure becomes more robust nationwide, I expect adoption to be slowly increasing between now and then. I don't think that it's so much of a "tipping point" that everyone will hold off until 2038 and then suddenly switch.
I think as we see now, people who are more affluent, can charge at home, and who can have one BEV for a multi-car family while the other is an ICEV, are already starting to adopt it. People who live in single family homes (detached or attached) I think are ~70% of the US population based on the numbers I quoted a few weeks back? So that's already a huge addressable market.
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I would agree with that. I have come to think PHEVs are the transitional form, as it were, and could well be the most common type of new vehicle sold in the US by ~2035.
We will start seeing "supercars" and light trucks as PHEVs. Folks will begin to accept them as normal, and useful, not weird. And you can charge them with 110v.
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I would agree with that. I have come to think PHEVs are the transitional form, as it were, and could well be the most common type of new vehicle sold in the US by ~2035.
We will start seeing "supercars" and light trucks as PHEVs. Folks will begin to accept them as normal, and useful, not weird. And you can charge them with 110v.
I disagree. Again going back to my own world (data storage), as it relates to PCs, in the early days of SSDs, they were fast but expensive, and HDDs were slow but cheap. So we had a bright idea... Let's put a little bit of flash storage on an HDD to speed it up via caching commonly-read data. Best of both worlds, right! Nope. Added cost but didn't add enough performance to be worth it. Ended up sorta the worst of both worlds.
I think PHEV is like that. You'd think it's the best of both worlds. BEV when you need it around town, and gas engine for longer trips. Wonderful! But instead, I think it ends up being a problem. You now have the cost of two separate powertrains. You now have the maintenance costs and mechanical reliability issues of two separate powertrains. You still have to have SOME infrastructure to charge it, even if it's only L1/110V.
I think for the majority of owners, the answer is going to be one or the other. If BEV is right for you, BEV is right for you. If ICEV is right for you, ICEV is right for you. Things like non-plugin hybrids are the middle ground IMHO. PHEV are a weird halfway point which IMHO ends up being the worst of both worlds, not the best.
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I disagree. Again going back to my own world (data storage), as it relates to PCs, in the early days of SSDs, they were fast but expensive, and HDDs were slow but cheap. So we had a bright idea... Let's put a little bit of flash storage on an HDD to speed it up via caching commonly-read data. Best of both worlds, right! Nope. Added cost but didn't add enough performance to be worth it. Ended up sorta the worst of both worlds.
I think PHEV is like that. You'd think it's the best of both worlds. BEV when you need it around town, and gas engine for longer trips. Wonderful! But instead, I think it ends up being a problem. You now have the cost of two separate powertrains. You now have the maintenance costs and mechanical reliability issues of two separate powertrains. You still have to have SOME infrastructure to charge it, even if it's only L1/110V.
I think for the majority of owners, the answer is going to be one or the other. If BEV is right for you, BEV is right for you. If ICEV is right for you, ICEV is right for you. Things like non-plugin hybrids are the middle ground IMHO. PHEV are a weird halfway point which IMHO ends up being the worst of both worlds, not the best.
I think a lot of this depends on how successful and practical the solid state batteries with rapid charging end up being.
With currently available tech, I'd be interested in a PHEV. I also think, as we've discussed that this is a really good idea from an engineering standpoint. My example:
I have four kids so I drive a Suburban. I didn't buy new due to the odd situation but if I had, I'd have bought one outfitted with the optional 3.0L Turbo Diesel. There are three engine options and if you get it with 4WD they get:
- 3.0L Turbo Diesel: 20 City, 26 Highway, costs $2,550 per year to fuel*.
- 5.3L Gas: 15 City, 18 Highway, costs $3,250 per year to fuel.
- 6.2L Gas: 14 City, 18 Highway, costs $4,050 per year to fuel.
The per year figures are from the EPA and are based on 45% City, 55% Highway at 15k/yr and current fuel prices. That isn't exact for me but it is close enough to be a good gauge.
The base engine is the 5.3L Gas V8. The Turbo Diesel is a $900 option. According to the EPA's figures that pays for itself in just over a year. It would be a no-brainer for me due to the short payoff time. I wouldn't even consider the 6.2L Gas V8. It might be necessary if you are towing a LOT or something but not for me.
I think that you could reconfigure this thing but cutting that 3.0L I6 Turbo Diesel in half (Yes, I realize it isn't actually that simple) and pushing it with a 1.5L I3 Turbo-Diesel with battery assist. If I were ordering the design I'd probably look for around a 100 mi battery-only range. Then I'd set up the vehicle as a PHEV where most owners could handle their daily commute on battery only and if you went on a trip you wouldn't have to worry about range anxiety because the Diesel would have enough power to charge when idling or coasting downhill and the battery would assist for things like accelerating, merging, uphill, etc. My WAG is that Highway mileage would improve but only slightly but City mileage would improve dramatically even without considering the plug-in aspect because you wouldn't be wasting much power.
There are two main reasons I wouldn't currently want an electric-only vehicle right now and they both have to do with trips:
- I wouldn't want to have to plan my trip around charger availability, and
- I wouldn't want to have to stop for a long time to recharge every so often.
The first will mitigate as chargers proliferate. The second appears to be solved by this new tech.
If I could buy an electric-only Suburban equivalent with ~400 mi range and 15 minute charging, that is as good as the current ICE version (range is ~450 for the gas engine and ~616 for the Diesel with refueling probably taking ~10 minutes). Then I wouldn't need the PHEV and could go full electric.
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I suspect we may see some PHEVs offering only 10-15 miles of electric range to meet CA standards, and also be fine for a lot of folks.
Your 1.5 L turbo Diesel might be good for just turning a generator.
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I think that you could reconfigure this thing but cutting that 3.0L I6 Turbo Diesel in half (Yes, I realize it isn't actually that simple) and pushing it with a 1.5L I3 Turbo-Diesel with battery assist. If I were ordering the design I'd probably look for around a 100 mi battery-only range. Then I'd set up the vehicle as a PHEV where most owners could handle their daily commute on battery only and if you went on a trip you wouldn't have to worry about range anxiety because the Diesel would have enough power to charge when idling or coasting downhill and the battery would assist for things like accelerating, merging, uphill, etc. My WAG is that Highway mileage would improve but only slightly but City mileage would improve dramatically even without considering the plug-in aspect because you wouldn't be wasting much power.
How many batteries do you think you need to get 100 mi of battery-only range on a giant Suburban? How much additional cost and weight is that in the vehicle?
Let's compare to a Rivian R1S, a slightly heavier but moderately comparable size to a Suburban. The smallest battery pack on the Rivian is 105 kWh, and gets you 260 mi of range.
We'll go with a battery pack cost at $120/kWh. If we assume any sort of linearity, 100mi of range would require about a 40 kWh battery pack.
Which is nice numerically, because that means that just in battery pack you're adding almost exactly $5K to the cost of the vehicle. Good round number.
Then you need two electric motors (if you want AWD as you suggest). And charging. And all the other stuff that you need for a PHEV. On top of all the stuff that's STILL THERE for the ICE powertrain.
How long do you think it'll take to get back to break-even on gas savings (given that you still have to pay for electricity)?
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How many batteries do you think you need to get 100 mi of battery-only range on a giant Suburban? How much additional cost and weight is that in the vehicle?
Let's compare to a Rivian R1S, a slightly heavier but moderately comparable size to a Suburban. The smallest battery pack on the Rivian is 105 kWh, and gets you 260 mi of range.
We'll go with a battery pack cost at $120/kWh. If we assume any sort of linearity, 100mi of range would require about a 40 kWh battery pack.
Which is nice numerically, because that means that just in battery pack you're adding almost exactly $5K to the cost of the vehicle. Good round number.
Then you need two electric motors (if you want AWD as you suggest). And charging. And all the other stuff that you need for a PHEV. On top of all the stuff that's STILL THERE for the ICE powertrain.
How long do you think it'll take to get back to break-even on gas savings (given that you still have to pay for electricity)?
Oh I get it. That is why PHEV is limited but until we have charging times in the neighborhood of refueling times I just don't see full electric as a viable option for a lot of people.
To answer in a little more depth though, you'd need the added cost and weight of battery and generator but you'd also save the cost and weight of half of the engine, the transmission, and the driveshaft so there is at least some offset. I'm sure it would end up costing more but if you could knock that $2,550 annual fuel cost down by say a third you'd have ~$800/yr in savings. I said earlier that the $900 for the Diesel was a no-brainer for me because it pays off in just over a year. If you could save me $800 in annual fuel costs I'd probably pay around $4,000 for that based on it paying for itself in five years. I *could* go higher as I'd expect to keep the vehicle for more like 10-12 years.
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Oh I get it. That is why PHEV is limited but until we have charging times in the neighborhood of refueling times I just don't see full electric as a viable option for a lot of people.
To answer in a little more depth though, you'd need the added cost and weight of battery and generator but you'd also save the cost and weight of half of the engine, the transmission, and the driveshaft so there is at least some offset. I'm sure it would end up costing more but if you could knock that $2,550 annual fuel cost down by say a third you'd have ~$800/yr in savings. I said earlier that the $900 for the Diesel was a no-brainer for me because it pays off in just over a year. If you could save me $800 in annual fuel costs I'd probably pay around $4,000 for that based on it paying for itself in five years. I *could* go higher as I'd expect to keep the vehicle for more like 10-12 years.
I just find it unlikely you're going to get a Suburban PHEV for a $4K adder. That's the adder for a Prius Prime PHEV over a standard Prius. And the Prius Prime is obviously MUCH smaller than a Suburban (a little over half the weight) and only offers 33 miles of battery range.
So, yeah, if you could get a Suburban PHEV for not that much more than a Suburban, it would be a good idea. But I don't think such a vehicle could economically exist.
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I'll just wait and see
I did see another Ford Lightning today in Ankeny
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A smaller Diesel should cost less, probably not half as much. That would pay for some of the PHEV part, but not all of it.
A nice thing about certain kinds of PHEVs is IF the only thing moving the wheels is the electric motor, you don't have to have a transmission with gears. You can have two motors and AWD. The Diesel engine would only run a generator as needed. We don't have this yet though Dodge has proposed such a thing with a gas engine.
I'm interested in the perspective that PHEVs have the "worst of both worlds", I can see that as being possible.
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I'm interested in the perspective that PHEVs have the "worst of both worlds", I can see that as being possible.
Saw this and it's one example.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61826413/toyota-prius-prime-plug-in-hybrid-slow-ev-acceleration-test/
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I'm rethinking a bit my "love affair" as it were with PHEVs. I think having two " motors" is a thing, with some good, and a lot of potential for bad. Even in my hybrid, there must be a pretty complex "transmission" in there of sorts. I am not at all sure how it works and I've looked into it, I can barely detect when the engine kicks on, or when the batteries aid acceleration. It's a very quiet vehicle overall. It has a regular six speed transmission in there coupled to the gas engine, but somehow the electric motor is paired with it for extra power.
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my 6.2 gasser ran great today with the 8-speed dual clutch tranny
I mean GREAT
I guy going to my golf course tried to lay back and get the jump on my at the stop light with his all-wheel drive Jeep with the 5.7 hemi
good times!
we had a nice talk in the parking lot
we decided I had experience
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How EVs and gasoline cars compare on total cost (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/20/how-evs-and-gasoline-cars-compare-on-total-cost.html)
Additionally, EVs generally make more financial sense for those who recharge their batteries at home, Woody said. Public charging generally costs more, he said.
This is especially true in areas where EV owners can take advantage of lower residential electricity prices during off-peak hours, like overnight charging, Woody said.
“If you don’t have access to home charging, it’s going to be really hard to save money with an EV,” he said.
Home charging access reduces the lifetime cost of a 300-mile midsize SUV by roughly $10,000, on average, and up to $26,000, according to the University of Michigan study.
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Thanks for bumping this thread, CD. I saw this story the other day and thought of your EV opinions...
https://insideevs.com/features/730299/hyundai-kona-dc-fast-charging-test/
The guy went two weeks with a Hyundai EV, traveling 1070 miles in that time, not charging at home, and not using DC fast chargers. I think it does a good job of pointing out a sort of middle ground that you may not have considered. "Public charging" is not some monolithic thing. And it meant that his charging was a LOT less expensive than if he'd used fast chargers (although more expensive than he'd have paid if charging at home).
And Adams is right; DC fast charging is expensive. To illustrate, let’s consider how much I spent on the Kona.
Over 14 days, and 1,070 miles, the Kona used 267 kWh worth of energy. I spent $61.86 total on charging for a rough average of $0.23 per kWh. About 167 kWh of that energy was done via Level 1 charging, at an average of $0.16 per kWh, while the rest was done at Level 2 public stations averaging out to $0.33 per kWh.
By comparison, if I had done all of my charging at a DC fast charger, I’d be paying at least $0.59 per kWh. My charging costs would have been at least $157, not including any fees or taxes. That’s not cheap at all, especially compared to a reasonably efficient gas-powered car that would use about the same amount of money in gas, to go the same distance.
He goes on to talk about how so many consumers think of the EV charging model trying to replicate the "gas station" model, which is "charge as fast as you can and get the hell on your way", and how that isn't the most economic way to own an EV and also isn't the most efficient way for the market to support EVs, where it might be better to build out a more robust Level 2 charging network.
I.e. if I'm going to go to a movie, I could be charging a car for ~2.5 hours on a L2 charger. A quick googling suggests that average charging speed for L2 is between 12-32 miles of charge added per hour. So in 2.5 hours, splitting to the midpoint of 20 miles per hour, you could add 50 miles of charge while at the movies.
If your work has a bank of L2 chargers in the parking lot and you're going to spend 8+ hours, you can probably get pretty close to going 10-80% on your battery while you're there. Maybe you only have to do that once a week to cover your commute and maybe top up on Friday for what you need over the weekend.
Is L2 slow? Yes. But is it suitable for a LOT of situations where speed isn't necessary? Also yes. And at considerable savings.
DC fast charging is maybe only really important on road trips, or if you're a SEVERE outlier who is driving 250+ miles per day and need to recharge quickly to continue whatever it is you're doing that requires so much driving.
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Where can I reliably access L2 charging stations?
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Where can I reliably access L2 charging stations?
No clue. I don't have an EV, so I don't really look very hard.
But I have a few examples that I've absolutely seen:
- My office parking structure
- Both of my local Target stores, in the parking lots
- Parking lots/structures at basically every local mall
Haven't you also said that they put in charging stations in your condo's parking garage, too? I'd probably put money on them being L2, not DC fast chargers. I don't know what your cost of charging would be there though. It wouldn't shock me at all if the company that installed them charges (pun intended) a premium knowing residents will use the chargers at their home out of convenience.
If you really wanted to answer your own question, go to Plugshare.com. It asks you to register but I was able to generate the below map for chargers local to Mission Viejo just by closing the registration window, so you don't need to.
(https://i.imgur.com/s6lCMVM.png)
And if I set the filter for "Free Charging", I even see this:
(https://i.imgur.com/uffiS88.png)
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Our two condo chargers are by a company called EnviroSpark and their average rate is 48 cents per kWhr.
ROI Calculator - Electric Vehicle Charging from EnviroSpark (envirosparkenergy.com) (https://envirosparkenergy.com/roi-calculator/#:~:text=average charging price of)
Electric Vehicle Charging from EnviroSpark (envirosparkenergy.com) (https://envirosparkenergy.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=ads_homepage_redirect&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw_ZC2BhAQEiwAXSgCljv4H9ksnTpWeE0oqCJNG4jPBTJwhfdmMWkvy8hkSGFVDnAgsPMJuhoCfTYQAvD_BwE)
That cost obviously isn't attractive at all, for me, to charge where I live. I looked at the stations at Kroger near us, and they are roughly the same cost. There are Tesla superchargers about a mile and a half from us that stay full nearly all the time. I've heard they cost 25 cents per.
I've looked for 110v outlets around our garage levels and not found any. And sure, if I worked somewhere, they might well offer lower cost chargers, but I personally don't. How about at motels if I'm traveling? Some do, I suspect they cost 30-50 cents per.
At 25 cents, it starts to make sense. But I can't use that over night.
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Hmm. At that price it might be DC fast charging. Particularly if they only install two chargers.
Either way, Plugshare would also show you the charging price at some of the chargers listed.
For example, here's one near you that gives you 3 hrs free.
(https://i.imgur.com/aQR4lnt.png)
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I imagine I can dick around and find cheaper charging options, like 3 hours free, great, but I really don't like that concept. Three hours might be sufficient for how much we dirive, but it isn't very convenient for me, personally. I'd probably use it at least some of the time. I can drive there and walk home, or get a beer, or something.
The 25 cents fee is also "OK", but it's over in Atlantic Station, which is not really my favorite place to hang out.
And how many of these "free" stations are just doing that to get noticed, and then in a few months it's 48 cents?
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I imagine I can dick around and find cheaper charging options, like 3 hours free, great, but I really don't like that concept. Three hours might be sufficient for how much we dirive, but it isn't very convenient for me, personally. I'd probably use it at least some of the time. I can drive there and walk home, or get a beer, or something.
The 25 cents fee is also "OK", but it's over in Atlantic Station, which is not really my favorite place to hang out.
And how many of these "free" stations are just doing that to get noticed, and then in a few months it's 48 cents?
Seems like the one bwar found is at a shopping complex. So three hours would be very convenient for, say, my wife, who is incapable of spending fewer than 3 hours at a shopping complex.
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Midtown Plaza is a two building, 14 and 20-story Class A office complex located at the intersection of Peachtree Street and 17th Street in Midtown Atlanta.
There is plenty of "stuff" nearby for shopping and dining. The 17th Street bridge links to Atlantic Center which has "stuff". The High Museum is nearby and Colony Square is at 14th Street with restaurants and "stuff". There isn't a lot of "shopping" near us in terms of retail. My wife thinks it's a bit odd, but most of the stuff we buy is from Amazon. Anyway, I think an apartment dweller can "manage" with an EV, but it's going to take some effort many of us would eschew. And maybe it gets better.
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I imagine I can dick around and find cheaper charging options, like 3 hours free, great, but I really don't like that concept. Three hours might be sufficient for how much we dirive, but it isn't very convenient for me, personally. I'd probably use it at least some of the time. I can drive there and walk home, or get a beer, or something.
The 25 cents fee is also "OK", but it's over in Atlantic Station, which is not really my favorite place to hang out.
And how many of these "free" stations are just doing that to get noticed, and then in a few months it's 48 cents?
Yeah, and bear in mind I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and most CERTAINLY not that an EV is the right choice for you. I personally wouldn't buy one if I didn't have the ability to charge at home. I don't want to spend my time worrying about where to charge. I'd rather just charge in my garage.
The reason I shared is that to an extent you make arguments about EVs from a place, quite frankly, of ignorance on the charging landscape. Which is completely understandable, because you have no incentive to learn all that you can about EV charging since you don't have nor are considering to buy an EV. If you assume that everyone is largely being forced into DC fast charging, the most expensive option, it gives you a skewed view of the economics. Likewise if you assume you can always find free charging, it gives an equally skewed view the other way. I thought it would offer a richer idea of the options that are out there.
And Plugshare isn't even complete. I don't know if your condo is on there; I would assume that if it's private and restricted access, it might not be. My work's parking structure isn't on there either. You need a key card as an employee to gain access, so it wouldn't make sense to show it on a public site. So there might even be a LOT more charging available than what is even shown there. Again making the total charging landscape richer but more complex.
But per your last question, I don't expect there to be a ton of free chargers forever, and I don't expect that those will suddenly become 48 cents. I believe free chargers are a way to get noticed--not that charging is available, but to get people to spend a couple hours somewhere that they might spend money. I.e. if you find a free charger but then buy an appetizer and two beers that you spent a lot more than eating lunch at home, is your charging really "free"? But overall once there are a LOT more EVs on the road, it won't make economic sense to offer free charging forever IMHO.
My belief is that as the charging infrastructure matures, charging costs will largely be driven by the market to be based upon electricity costs and then a reasonable profit margin driven down by competition. I see a scenario where the market largely pushes L2 charging to a very similar range of price wherever you are within one geographic area, and L3 DC Fast Charging to a significantly higher range of price. Much as we currently see at gas stations. The price isn't the same at every station, but they tend to be within a similar range in any geographical area.
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It's useful discussion, especially as I've expressed some interest in the PHEV option in the future. I figure also if I live long enough I'll probably own an EV.
Our two chargers are in a secure area with key access required (or admission by the security desk). There are four chargers at Kroger about a mile away, I have not investigated them, they are by two companies. My main point of course is that apartment dwellers should think about the cost of charging for them before buying.
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My main point of course is that apartment dwellers should think about the cost of charging for them before buying.
On that we agree.
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haven't noticed the EV chargers at my golf course
that would be about a 4 hr charge plus the 19th hole
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These away from home chargers will have to be a bit pricey for obvious reasons, exceptions being when they are used to get you to park there and enjoy whatever is "inside". Power runs about 16 cents per kWhr, then you have the cost of the charger itself, and billing, and maintenance, and insurance, the minor cost of land. and then profit margin. I think Tesla had a "zero cost" model on charging as an incentive to buy their car, which was fairly smart at that time.
Let's imagine their 25 cents is "zero profit", or close to it. For folks providing these at profit, they need a markup of course. That could be 20 cents or so, just guessing, to provide a decent ROI. Maybe "Kroger" kicks in a few bucks, at least to start? I can see some "Krogers" kicking in a lot of bucks, to start, and then after a year of marketing that stops. So, it goes from "free" to use to 40 cents or more.
My neighbor was under the impression they were all free, somehow, when I mentioned they cost about as much as gas. He didn't know. We don't drive enough in a year to really matter much at all, maybe 7K miles, probably about 200 gallons, or $650 or so. That's about what my car insurance costs. So, my own max savings on gas is $650.
My wife chatted with a lady in the garage the other day because the lady had a new Tesla, and she was saying she had been spending $5,000 a MONTH on gas (for her Porsche). She may be in real estate. She loved not having to buy gas but didn't note the cost of charging. She had a Panamera before. It looked nice.
The lady felt she need to remark how she didn't like Elon at all. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone in the building is "liberal", not that I care either way.
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$5K a month is a LOT of driving
even with premium in a Porsche
does she mostly sell real estate in North Dakota?
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I dunno, she might have exaggerated. She then claimed it fell to $61 a month with the Tesla, which strikes me as unlikely.
It would be about 1250 gallons of premium and over 20,000 miles, which is clearly not accurate.
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I dunno, she might have exaggerated. She then claimed it fell to $61 a month with the Tesla, which strikes me as unlikely.
It would be about 1250 gallons of premium and over 20,000 miles, which is clearly not accurate.
I was doing that math, and you would just be burning through expensive cars so fast.
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some women folk exaggerate quite a bit
most of them that do, really seem to dislike Trump exaggerating
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She might have meant per year, not per month. I heard the latter.
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I'd guess she doesn't spend that much in a year
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Ford delays new EV plant, cancels electric three-row SUV (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/21/ford-delays-new-ev-plant-cancels-electric-three-row-suv.html)
DETROIT – Ford Motor (https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/F/) is delaying production of a new plant in Tennessee to produce a next-generation all-electric pickup truck and canceling plans for a three-row electric SUV, the company said Wednesday.
Instead, Ford said it will prioritize the development of hybrid models, as well as electric commercial vehicles such as a new electric commercial van in 2026, followed by two EV pickup trucks in 2027.
The pickups are expected to be a full-size truck, which will be produced at the Tennessee plant that’s currently under construction in 2027, and a new midsize pickup.
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I am impressed that Toyota and Honda basically were right.
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I'm not surprised, they've led the "energy economy" segment for decades.
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Ford delays new EV plant, cancels electric three-row SUV (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/21/ford-delays-new-ev-plant-cancels-electric-three-row-suv.html)
DETROIT – Ford Motor (https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/F/) is delaying production of a new plant in Tennessee to produce a next-generation all-electric pickup truck and canceling plans for a three-row electric SUV, the company said Wednesday.
Instead, Ford said it will prioritize the development of hybrid models, as well as electric commercial vehicles such as a new electric commercial van in 2026, followed by two EV pickup trucks in 2027.
The pickups are expected to be a full-size truck, which will be produced at the Tennessee plant that’s currently under construction in 2027, and a new midsize pickup.
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/ford-cancels-plans-for-electric-suv-44817367?st=do8h7kxkaqa0mqu&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
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I dunno, she might have exaggerated. She then claimed it fell to $61 a month with the Tesla, which strikes me as unlikely.
It would be about 1250 gallons of premium and over 20,000 miles, which is clearly not accurate.
Lyin' bitch.
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She's a nice lady, I see her in the gym sometimes. She's a bit hefty but does work out, and I could have misheard her. Her Panamera had Dealer plates on it all the time.
I'm not sure but she may be the sister of Elijah Holyfield, son of Evander.
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Why Ford believes its $1.9 billion EV shift will benefit the automaker (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/23/ford-ev-strategy-smaller-cars.html)
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This is a curious story, to me, all around. Most car makers except the Japanese came out with very aggressive timelines for going EV, and most of them have since retrenched on that. Meanwhile, this EV "mandate" in several states by 2035 would include PHEVs in the requirement. I agree PHEVs are unduly complex, but I could envision one that plugs in with maybe one mile of battery range. It's hardly different from a regular hybrid like mine, but checks the box. Nobody would bother plugging it in. Maybe it has 15 miles range, and you'd use 110v to charge over night, maybe.
Yay, california.
Meanwhile, charging stations are not well developed as yet, may be broken, are expensive usually, and are not always convenient.
It's starting to look like the Consumer has spoken, for now.
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2024 Cadillac Celestiq First Ride Review: Is the Super Caddy Worth Rolls/Bentley Coin? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025-cadillac-celestiq-first-ride-review/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawE7Fv5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHXnA24cE52eFPSneIwtSynUNws4U0a4ElAH6cY9qpLGShcFU6r6d1EZO4g_aem_sf0swSw71nYxs_nhRbWCrA)
Um, not a fan. Fortunately.
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Wow that thing is ugly.
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Shooting for a domestic, electric, Maybach alternative?
I actually don't hate the look from the front--which might be the part y'all object to.
But this view just makes it look like a poor Panamera wanna-be... Maybe it's just me:
(https://i.imgur.com/xPeViNx.png)
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No I think the front is okay. It's that long weird slopy hatchback thing it has going on, that I find hideous as hell.
I also dislike the Panamera, probably for similar reasons.
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No I think the front is okay. It's that long weird slopy hatchback thing it has going on, that I find hideous as hell.
I also dislike the Panamera, probably for similar reasons.
Ahh got it. So we've got the same design sensibilities on this one then...
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If I had the change around for that much vehicle, I would look elsewhere, several times.
I'd probably not spend that much unless money ceased to have meaning for me. Maybe next year ....
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Ahh got it. So we've got the same design sensibilities on this one then...
Yup, definitely.
Just from the front I was thinking, okay, this looks pretty nice, maybe its looks could compete with a Rolls or Bentley.
Then I kept scrolling through the pics, saw that exact side view, and did this:
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/goW6tMa2riQAAAAC/animal-house-bluto.gif)
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Ford Mustang!
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Ford Mustang!
Cool car, I like them too!
(https://i.imgur.com/IJXzi2V.jpeg)
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sorry, yer not going to get me to google one of those other crappy pics, just to post here
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sorry, yer not going to get me to google one of those other crappy pics, just to post here
What ever might you be talking about?????
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you don't want to see it
no one wants to see it
I saw one in the wild and made that Belushi face
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you don't want to see it
no one wants to see it
I saw one in the wild and made that Belushi face
I see them more often in the wild and I don't hate them.
Still not a Mustang.
I keep seeing the Cybertruck in the wild. Still hate it. Stupid, stupid vehicle.
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Yeah I don't think it's any better or worse than most other electric vehicles.
If they didn't call it a Mustang I'd be fine with it.
Cybertruck on the other hand is just so awful and it's not getting any better with more exposure to it. It's bad bad bad.
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If they didn't call it a Mustang I'd be fine with it.
Ed Zachery
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Longtime Tesla investor Ross Gerber has sold about half his stake in the electric car company, but still can't his actual Tesla.
Gerber recently told BI that the used-car market is so overrun with old Teslas that he's failed at flipping his old model at what he deems a fair value.
He's right: A used Tesla certainly isn't worth as much as it was a few years ago.
In mid-2022, as demand for Tesla EVs far outweighed what Elon Musk's company could supply, a used Model Y could go for as much as $70,000, according to data from Recurrent, which tracks secondhand EV prices.
That same car today is worth less than $40,000 on the used market, the firm says.
Used EVs are becoming more affordable as more supply hits the market, and Tesla, as an early mover in the segment, is most impacted by these falling resale prices.
According to industry data, Teslas are the most commonly found EVs on the used market, accounting for roughly 42% of the market. Hertz's move to dump 30,000 Teslas from its fleet earlier this year hastened the decline in used-market values.
This influx in supply puts pressure on resale values and requires owners looking to offload their vehicles to lower their listing prices to attract buyers, which is why Gerber held on to his Tesla.
Musk's EV price war in the new car market isn't helping the matter. Tesla slashed prices by about $15,000 last year and has continued to lower them throughout this year.
When factoring in a $7,500 federal tax credit, an aspiring Tesla owner can get a brand new rear-wheel drive Model 3 for around $31,490. That's compared to an average used price of $29,303 for a used 2018 Model 3, according to Recurrent.
The falling resale values come at the same time Tesla's share in the new EV market fell below 50% for the first time in the second quarter, according to Cox Automotive.
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Yeah I don't think it's any better or worse than most other electric vehicles.
If they didn't call it a Mustang I'd be fine with it.
Cybertruck on the other hand is just so awful and it's not getting any better with more exposure to it. It's bad bad bad.
I agree, the EV "'stang" looks OK to me, not great.
I was at the Hyundai dealer today and looked at some of the Ioinics and think they looked pretty slick.
The did some kind of software update on mine, something about the battery, it was explained very well. I'd like to know more about the drivetrain in the thing but I can't find any details anywhere.
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My internal-combustion engine had a front motor mount give way and the transmission mount is going. Glad I took it in due to vibrations felt through the gas pedal.
Don't want something major falling out on the road. Already did that with my Jeep (front driveshaft).
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My internal-combustion engine had a front motor mount give way and the transmission mount is going. Glad I took it in due to vibrations felt through the gas pedal.
Don't want something major falling out on the road. Already did that with my Jeep (front driveshaft).
Thank God your battery didn't explode.
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(https://i.imgur.com/4cpyypC.png)
This suggests to me they aren't selling well.
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We were at he Hyundai dealer yesterday for an oil change (which took way too long). My wife wanted to go with me, and at a point we walked around their lot. They had cars everywhere, it was amazing how much inventory they had. Nearly all of it was SUVs of some sort of course. They have some EVs too, they look pretty decent, to me, I'm still not interested in one. A lot of the SUVs were hybrids.
I'm seeing more TV ads for EVs also, I'd guess you are as well. I know they are selling in greater numbers each year, but the car makers have apparently "misoverestimated" demand.
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(https://i.imgur.com/4cpyypC.png)
This suggests to me they aren't selling well.
at that price I'm not surprised
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When they first announced that thing, I wasn't certain there was a much of a market for a Bro'd out monster truck offroading EV.
I think I might have been right.
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I don't know why GM really makes these "specialty" vehicles at times, "halo" cars I guess. I "like" the Caddy CT5V BW, great car etc., but I doubt many who buy the CT5 regular car are influenced by its existence.
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hah, the 2 wheel drive version is hardly available. Well, maybe in Texas (No Snow)
Unless you order it. But not for lease.
So, you're really gonna pay nearly $1,000/month
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hah, the 2 wheel drive version is hardly available. Well, maybe in Texas (No Snow)
Unless you order it. But not for lease.
So, you're really gonna pay nearly $1,000/month
Nobody in Texas gets a 2WD truck even if they'll never use the 4WD. Maybe some soccer moms in Suburbans and Expeditions but I don't think that's the target demo for this thing.
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you're right
it's silly
there are some Latinos that like the 2-wheel drives lowered
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I can recall not so long ago when 4WD in a truck was an unusual thing, owned by a person who needed it, used it, was off road often, etc.
Now it seems to be a status symbol rather than something meeting an actual need. Of course, a lot of trucks around us never are used as trucks either. They are too purty to put anything in the bed beyond maybe a bicycle.
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I understand it up here in the great white north where snow and ice is common
even if you don't go off-road
but, not down south
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I don't view it any differently than the guy who buys a Z06 Corvette but never takes it to the track, or the guy who buys a Rolls Royce Phantom convertible and never puts the top down.
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I'd opine it's kind of the same as the guy who buys a BMW 3 series and drives it like it was a Honda Accord.
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I'd opine it's kind of the same as the guy who buys a BMW 3 series and drives it like it was a Honda Accord.
Sure. All of these situations are the same.
And who am I to judge the guy with the M3 who drives it like a Honda or the guy with a convertible who never puts the top down? Did they do it as a status symbol? Maybe? So what?
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I think they should have their car taken away from them and given a 2000 Chevy Cobalt to drive.
I had FWD minivans for years in Cincy. The did just fine in the snow, I never had issues. The Dodge was prone to hydroplaning, I had to throttle back in a hard rain at speed.
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I'd opine it's kind of the same as the guy who buys a BMW 3 series and drives it like it was a Honda Accord.
it's a lot more fun to buy a Honda Accord and drives it like it's a BMW M3. :57:
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I disagree
I'd rather drive my Vette at half throttle than my Impala at full throttle
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I disagree
I'd rather drive my Vette at half throttle than my Impala at full throttle
To me some of the fun of high performance driving is the ability to be near the limits of the vehicle.
Now, my example (Accord vs M3) is a bit of an extreme, and not saying driving an Accord around the track would be exactly the most fun thing to do.
But if I had a choice between taking a modified Miata or WRX STi around a track, or a Mercedes AMG-One (fastest production car around the Nurburgring)...
...well I'd obviously pick the Mercedes. Just to say I did it...
...but it would probably be more fun to flog the Miata or WRX around a racetrack. The limits of the Merc are so beyond my skill level as a driver that I would be scared to go anywhere near them. The Miata / WRX, not so much. Even though the Merc would be faster, I think the others would be more fun.
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A RWD vehicle is usually more fun to flog hard.
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Saw my first live Cyber truck today, so I know there's at least one dumbass in the area.
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They're all over the place here. I see one pretty much every time I drive now. It's horrifying.
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They should not be allowed out in public ...
I think I've seen one, so far. Is there something functional over the Ford pickup that is worthwhile?
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They should not be allowed out in public ...
I think I've seen one, so far. Is there something functional over the Ford pickup that is worthwhile?
Not that I can tell. In fact, some of the things they've done have made it even worse than the Ford (and literally every other pickup truck, ever). As Jalopnik reports:
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-bed-length-is-a-lie-1851544285
It turns out the Tesla Cybertruck’s (https://jalopnik.com/cybertruck-owner-pretending-his-truck-was-broken-accide-1851540735) quoted bed size is a bit of a lie if you actually want to carry anything substantial. Sure, it is technically six feet, one inch long, but an item that big will only fit the bed if it’s less than 6” tall. That’s not ideal if you want to use your Cybertruck (https://jalopnik.com/donald-trump-tells-elon-musk-he-s-a-huge-fan-of-the-c-1851540455) for real truck things. (https://jalopnik.com/truck-yeah)
TikToker molesrcool posted the discovery to his page (https://www.tiktok.com/@molesrcool/video/7381106492444839210?_r=1&_t=8nG45u1Yb5L) that as items get taller, the more unlikely it is that they will fit in the bed (https://jalopnik.com/tesla-cybertruck-s-basecamp-tent-is-a-3-000-disappoi-1851319488) of a Cybertruck (https://jalopnik.com/roughly-5-percent-of-all-cybertrucks-are-for-sale-onlin-1851535582). It’s all because of the way Tesla (https://jalopnik.com/car-buying/tesla) designed the rear bulkhead of the truck’s (https://jalopnik.com/tesla-threatens-customer-threatened-with-50-000-fine-i-1851521421) cabin. It cuts into the bed length the higher you go up. That’s not a good piece of engineering, man.
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That’s right. If the object you intend to carry is over 30” tall, it can only be 4” 11” because it no longer fits in the bed with the tailgate up. For reference, the Ford Maverick – the smallest truck on sale today in the U.S. (https://jalopnik.com/2023-ford-maverick-xl-the-jalopnik-review-basic-pickup-1850079425) – has a bed length only five inches shorter than that, and that truck is nearly two feet shorter in overall length.
...
As molesrcool (https://www.tiktok.com/@molesrcool/video/7381106492444839210?_r=1&_t=8nG45u1Yb5L) correctly points out, there’s a very good reason that just about every other truck maker do their best to make their beds a perfect rectangle with a flat back; you can fit more of your shit in a rectangle than whatever shape the Cybertruck’s bed (https://jalopnik.com/you-need-a-flashlight-to-escape-the-tesla-cybertruck-be-1851349447) is. On top of that, other trucks don’t have those very high, sloping walls on either side of their beds that make getting things in and out more difficult.
So, yeah. A 6' truck bed that you can't fit very many 6' long things in.
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Yeah they're not particularly useful for doing truck things.
They have a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs for the 2 and 3 motor versions so I suppose they'd do okay for in-town towing. Like all other EVs, the long distance towing use case isn't very suitable for it. An that's basically the ONLY reason I have an F150 to begin with.
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So, folks buy them as a kind of statement? The EV-150 would be more useful and usable? At least the Tesla cars are decent as cars.
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So, folks buy them as a kind of statement? The EV-150 would be more useful and usable? At least the Tesla cars are decent as cars.
Only the S.
The 3 is like riding in a tomato can.
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I rode in the Tesla Y, it seemed "fine", I guess.
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They should not be allowed out in public ...
I think I've seen one, so far. Is there something functional over the Ford pickup that is worthwhile?
People need to show us who they are.
most dipshits don’t wear a sign that alerts the rest of us.
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So, folks buy them as a kind of statement? The EV-150 would be more useful and usable? At least the Tesla cars are decent as cars.
Well, if you only rarely need a truck to do truck things, it may still do them moderately well. Maybe not as well as an F-150 Lightning. But maybe you don't need that.
I can say that of all the CyberTrucks I've seen on the road, not a single one looked like a "work truck". The closest was one that was adorned with a business's graphics and I saw what looked to be a pump or something used for a pool service company on the trailer hitch. I.e. a "work truck" that could have been handled by a Ford Maverick or probably a van. I think the idea was that the truck attracting eyeballs would make it a more effective rolling billboard for the business than if it was a "conventional" pickup.
But I don't see a lot of CTs that I think are running to and from the lumber yard, or full of a bunch of concrete tools, or used for a landscaping business. (Not that a lot of F-150 Lightnings that I've seen look like that either, to be fair. But I think they'd be more useful than the CT.)
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the cyber truck isn't a truck
the E-mustang isn't a mustang
I did have to be creative to get a new zero gravity lawn chair in the Vette this afternoon
(https://i.imgur.com/51zTmak.png)
$29.99 at Dunhams with a coupon
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the cyber truck isn't a truck
the E-mustang isn't a mustang
I did have to be creative to get a new zero gravity lawn chair in the Vette this afternoon
The zero gravity lawn chair isn't zero gravity :57:
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damn it
I haven't even sat it in yet
and ya ruined it for me!
Oh well, only $30
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Tesla Quietly Erases Its ‘Climate Manifesto’ and Early History (autodrive.com.bd) (https://www.autodrive.com.bd/posts/tesla-quietly-erases-its-climate-manifesto-and-early-history?fbclid=IwY2xjawE-4DlleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHVinM44PrIbjpeyThfqGIHXyHoO5DKM1-ZC30E3w-TjETIZ6lpIXHpX_Jg_aem_9rKYYhu7WpGIyts2wtJnIA)
Kind of interesting, perhaps.
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It is interesting. But I really didn't learn anything.
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Back in the day, Tesla was presented as an approach that would save us from Climate Change, it was their mantra, and a lot of enviro-types bought Teslas as a result. They appear to be backing off that now, it's just cars.
And Musk of course has shed any "liberal aura of respectability".
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GM's EV sales momentum is finally building (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/23/gm-ev-sales-momentum-building.html)
Interesting to ponder which companies will survive over the next decade. Tesla? Are they a lock to make it? I don't know.
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Tesla, for all the outright exaggeration of their capabilities that Musk is known to spout, is still IMHO the leader in EV IP. Just for their IP they'd probably be a good acquisition target. (That's just from an outsider view--I don't know how defensible their IP is and whether it is as strong as I'm suggesting.)
The biggest issue for them is that TSLA is SO insanely overvalued ($761B market cap) that they can't be an acquisition target. Hell, their market cap is >17x of Ford's. With a forward PE of 101, they're insanely overvalued even as a tech stock. I don't know how that valuation is even remotely justifiable.
There's so much about Tesla that just makes me scratch my head in wonder.
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I wonder how much of that IP is a real barrier to competitors.
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I wonder how much of that IP is a real barrier to competitors.
It's tough. Their fanboys talk about them being vertically integrated in batteries, but I think that's becoming true in battery production, not battery chemistry. I.e. they're still tightly tied to Panasonic for their battery chemistry. Which to me means that the most likely arrangement is that for every battery they produce, they're paying a license fee to Panasonic. And that they don't own the battery IP.
(Just spitballing here based on how I think these relationships are often set up.)
However just a quick googling suggests they've got a lot (>3K) of patents. How impactful any of them are, and how much they're a barrier to competitors, is unclear of course.
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It's tough. Their fanboys talk about them being vertically integrated in batteries, but I think that's becoming true in battery production, not battery chemistry. I.e. they're still tightly tied to Panasonic for their battery chemistry. Which to me means that the most likely arrangement is that for every battery they produce, they're paying a license fee to Panasonic. And that they don't own the battery IP.
(Just spitballing here based on how I think these relationships are often set up.)
However just a quick googling suggests they've got a lot (>3K) of patents. How impactful any of them are, and how much they're a barrier to competitors, is unclear of course.
Dell owns almost 52,000 patents in an industry that's long been closer to open source than it is proprietary, so I'm not sure we can read a lot into their patent numbers.
And are there really any areas in an EV-- other than batteries-- where unique innovation could provide a competitive advantage? Electric motors have been around for generations, there's not a whole lot of potential for something unique there, that would afford patent protection. And the microchips, computers, and software used in a Tesla, might be unique, but there are so many other ways to do the same thing, I doubt it provides much of a competitive advantage either.
Really their best advantage is experience in the industry, and that's one that diminishes with each passing year.
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Dell owns almost 52,000 patents in an industry that's long been closer to open source than it is proprietary, so I'm not sure we can read a lot into their patent numbers.
And are there really any areas in an EV-- other than batteries-- where unique innovation could provide a competitive advantage? Electric motors have been around for generations, there's not a whole lot of potential for something unique there, that would afford patent protection. And the microchips, computers, and software used in a Tesla, might be unique, but there are so many other ways to do the same thing, I doubt it provides much of a competitive advantage either.
Really their best advantage is experience in the industry, and that's one that diminishes with each passing year.
Tesla is the Facebook(Meta) of the automotive industry. Everyone discounted Facebook believing it only had so high it could go because it was just a social media company, while behind the scenes they were making their mark utilizing and selling data. This is the part of Tesla that many people miss.. they're a data company behind the scenes and far more than just an EV auto maker.
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Dell owns almost 52,000 patents in an industry that's long been closer to open source than it is proprietary, so I'm not sure we can read a lot into their patent numbers.
And are there really any areas in an EV-- other than batteries-- where unique innovation could provide a competitive advantage? Electric motors have been around for generations, there's not a whole lot of potential for something unique there, that would afford patent protection. And the microchips, computers, and software used in a Tesla, might be unique, but there are so many other ways to do the same thing, I doubt it provides much of a competitive advantage either.
Really their best advantage is experience in the industry, and that's one that diminishes with each passing year.
Agreed re: patents. You can't be sure how important it is. It's not just patents of course, but also trade secrets and other IP. Perhaps in autonomous. I believe it's a crucial misstep to rely on vision/radar and not LIDAR, but they may have developed a significant amount of IP around the vision/radar portions that would augment what another company has done and lead to true autonomy.
Or even just the people and institutional know-how.
I do think some of it might merely be learning-curve. But there may also be some actual IP there.
Whatever it is, it's not worth $761B. So they're not getting acquired unless there's an absolutely catastrophic drop in their market cap.
Tesla is the Facebook(Meta) of the automotive industry. Everyone discounted Facebook believing it only had so high it could go because it was just a social media company, while behind the scenes they were making their mark utilizing and selling data. This is the part of Tesla that many people miss.. they're a data company behind the scenes and far more than just an EV auto maker.
What data do they have that's valuable? I can potentially see the millions of miles of driving data that could potentially power true L5 autonomy, but they haven't been able to turn it into true L5 autonomy.
To me Tesla keeps trying to tell everyone that they're a tech company and not an automaker, because Wall Street doesn't value [boring] automakers with the insane PE ratio Tesla is carrying.
I, personally, don't believe them. So I'm asking earnestly... Why do you? Tell me what I'm missing.
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Yeah I don't see obscene value in the data they've collected. Normal everyday value, sure. But they're NOT Meta and they're NOT Alphabet and they're not even Microsoft.
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Yeah I don't see obscene value in the data they've collected. Normal everyday value, sure. But they're NOT Meta and they're NOT Alphabet and they're not even Microsoft.
Exactly. How do you monetize the data?
Meta/Alphabet: You're monitoring literally everything a person does, and using that to feed them advertisements that are uniquely tailored to hit their demographic.
Tesla: ???
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I went down this rabbit hole earlier this year after watching an Elon interview when he makes the statement that they are a data company making cars and I did t understand what he meant by it. These are fairly “surfacy” articles, but it goes a little more in depth. Data has become a wildly valuable commodity.
https://www.thestreet.com/automotive/tesla-prominent-automakers-quietly-mining-data
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tesla-data-company-automotive-manufacturer-mithrilinternational-uirte
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A lawyer once told me a patent is only as good as you're willing to enforce it, which is true. I was peripherally involved in some court challenges and they get expensive, quick, even for a large company. There is a huge incentive to settle, or not even challenge. I'm a named inventor on quite a few patents, none of them are worth spit, in part because nobody else would want to infringe them.
Most patents I saw were written poorly, they were unclear or left out ways of getting around them. (The old patents are mostly not like this.) And I've read a lot of patents. I got pretty jaded on the whole idea. The patent attorneys were supposed to run their drafts by me, some did for a while, they didn't like my input with one exception. We worked together pretty well and then he got a different job. One thing several would do is to cut and paste "boilerplate" which usually had nothing at all to do with the invention in the middle of a patent. That was annoying because we had page charges, but I guess it made them look better, or so they thought.
The VP in charge was a very sharp guy, he knew the deal. He got moved up, I suspect they wanted him to take over as CLO at some point.
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tesla basically say that anybody can use their patents as long as they credited Tesla for their work (credit as in acknowledging the use, not necessarily pay them). I thought that they did this in order to speed up EV technology? I know he sent a big packet out to the other automakers this year detailing how to run 48V architecture for modern vehicles and get rid of the 12V standard. On this last statement I don't really think much of it, as I don't view it as much of a technical challenge to go from 12V to 48V, if anything it may be easier.
I read an article recently detailing how GM and Ford (and Kia) were jockeying for 2nd place. One sold like 22K EV's in one quarter, the other sold 26K, etc. Tesla, the #1, sold like 164K in the same quarter. There's a pretty big gap from #1 to #2.
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tesla basically say that anybody can use their patents as long as they credited Tesla for their work (credit as in acknowledging the use, not necessarily pay them). I thought that they did this in order to speed up EV technology? I know he sent a big packet out to the other automakers this year detailing how to run 48V architecture for modern vehicles and get rid of the 12V standard. On this last statement I don't really think much of it, as I don't view it as much of a technical challenge to go from 12V to 48V, if anything it may be easier.
I read an article recently detailing how GM and Ford (and Kia) were jockeying for 2nd place. One sold like 22K EV's in one quarter, the other sold 26K, etc. Tesla, the #1, sold like 164K in the same quarter. There's a pretty big gap from #1 to #2.
Tesla has sold around 4.5M vehicles total. Ford sells 4.5M vehicles in a single year. When the big automakers really decide there's a market for EV, Tesla will become an afterthought.
And, as bwar has pointed out, their market capitalization is actually too high for them to be a viable acquisition target, so I'm not sure what their future is. I honestly don't believe they really have one, as an auto manufacturer.
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tesla basically say that anybody can use their patents as long as they credited Tesla for their work (credit as in acknowledging the use, not necessarily pay them). I thought that they did this in order to speed up EV technology?
Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
Seems to be accurate, but at least one source I read suggests that the restrictions may make it not worthwhile to touch their patents. So it could be all a PR move to make people think Tesla is being altruistic: https://www.vennershipley.com/insights-events/does-teslas-open-source-patent-philosophy-mean-they-are-free-to-use/
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Tesla could stand to steal some actual car designers from companies like GM, Ford, M-B, BMW, etc. As it stands their cars look like shit (except the S), ride like shit, and are appointed like a Yugo inside.
They could also consider making hybrids.
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Tesla could stand to steal some actual car designers from companies like GM, Ford, M-B, BMW, etc. As it stands their cars look like shit (except the S), ride like shit, and are appointed like a Yugo inside.
Eh. The Cybertruck is proof that even if they did hire those guys, Elon would tell them to design what his overgrown man-child's brain thought looked cool when he was 8 years old.
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EV Battery Technology: What's Coming Now, Tomorrow, and the Far Future (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ev-battery-technology-future-emerging/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawFfywJleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHVaIjjjr4H0AxOQ-SPPFVL4CczLocdTG-YJg0WIQa06Fu6voXvLshZSESA_aem_hb63QdZSJXiIvQ6RzalHfA)
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Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.
Seems to be accurate, but at least one source I read suggests that the restrictions may make it not worthwhile to touch their patents. So it could be all a PR move to make people think Tesla is being altruistic: https://www.vennershipley.com/insights-events/does-teslas-open-source-patent-philosophy-mean-they-are-free-to-use/
I had always assumed that it was more BS than actual substance.
I think too, sometimes even when people are given the recipe, they still can't cook it like the master chef does, if you know what I mean.
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I haven't yet seen many EV comparison tests, perhaps there aren't enough models out that are comparable. I've seen a few. Is the Tesla Y significantly better than a similarly priced and sized Chevy Equinox?
2024 Chevrolet Equinox EV vs 2024 Tesla Model Y - The Car Connection (https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-compare-results/chevrolet_equinox-ev_2024-vs-tesla_model-y_2024)
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Eh. The Cybertruck is proof that even if they did hire those guys, Elon would tell them to design what his overgrown man-child's brain thought looked cool when he was 8 years old.
I'm not sure about that. At one time, this was considered very ugly and off-beat.
(https://i.imgur.com/EQybdlB.png)
Wasn't too long, Ford followed suit:
(https://i.imgur.com/CB6H6pS.png)
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Aesthetically, I don't really think those are anywhere close to the same.
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and they ARE ugly
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I learned something useful/critical today about our mild hybrid.
After 5-7 days, the computer shuts down the battery, complete disconnect. So, when we returned from our trip, the car was stone cold dead. I called for road service and the guy jumped it after we got in the car with the regular key. It seemed OK. I left it unlocked and got an appointment at the dealer. I drove out there today, the car started fine.
It turns out there is a battery reset button to reverse this whole thing, I didn't know about it. The service tech told me it happens often with hybrids. Yours could be the same way. The button on our car is left of the steering wheel on the dash.
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Aesthetically, I don't really think those are anywhere close to the same.
Well, the hood is much higher than the head lights on both trucks. It's supposed to mimic big rig trucks in the ram. The Ford is not as noticeable, but still it does have the same overall effect. I think the Ford's was done much nicer than Ram, and sales will reflect that. I've personally owned about 6 of these trucks, with three in my possession right now. All 2004 F350's. And a 2015 F-250, pretty much the same truck as the '04's.
Just for Grins, here's what AI says about it.
(https://i.imgur.com/q9YnXfA.png)
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Well, the hood is much higher than the head lights on both trucks. It's supposed to mimic big rig trucks in the ram. The Ford is not as noticeable, but still it does have the same overall effect. I think the Ford's was done much nicer than Ram, and sales will reflect that. I've personally owned about 6 of these trucks, with three in my possession right now. All 2004 F350's. And a 2015 F-250, pretty much the same truck as the '04's.
Just for Grins, here's what AI says about it.
(https://i.imgur.com/q9YnXfA.png)
Oh no, sorry for any confusion. I'm saying the difference in the Ram and Ford is not all that big of a deal aesthetically, compared to the hideous monstrousness of the Cybertruck. Aesthetically, I don't consider those other two, to be anywhere near the same league as the Tesla.
Also, the Ram design was intended to be a throwback, reminiscent of the styles of the 50s before everything got so boxy.
(https://i.imgur.com/4tYR4w3.jpeg)
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I think the above is beautiful, and never had any problem with the Dodge/Ram when it went to the throwback style.
Of course, I also do love some of the really boxy square body designs as well.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZIE1Q9J.png)
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Oh no, sorry for any confusion. I'm saying the difference in the Ram and Ford is not all that big of a deal aesthetically, compared to the hideous monstrousness of the Cybertruck. Aesthetically, I don't consider those to be anywhere near the same league.
Also, the Ram design was intended to be a throwback, reminiscent of the styles of the 50s before everything got so boxy.
(https://i.imgur.com/4tYR4w3.jpeg)
OK, I see what you're saying now. I don't find the Cybertruck hideous, it's just so different than anything else out there that I really can't decide. They had to differentiate themselves somehow, and I'd say it's pretty different.
My point was that many people, including myself, judged the 2nd Gen Ram (Dodge back then) as hideous, and later on it turned out pretty well and the styling persists to this day.
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(Gray News) - For those who are in the market for a car and are intrigued by electric vehicles but also worried about charging, Ford is sweetening the pot.
In a blog post on Monday, CEO Jim Farley said Ford was going to help customers set up their at-home charging with a free home charger and installation.
The offer is available to those who buy or lease a retail Ford Mustang Mach-E, F-150 Lightning or E-Transit and get a standard home charging installation.
Ford said it is also launching a 24/7 electric vehicle support as well as proactive roadside assistance. which “will pick customers up and bring them to the closest charging station or dealership in the case of adverse vehicle events, now including running out of charge, no matter where they are,” according to the company’s guidance.
“Electric vehicles are an excellent choice for many people,” Farley said. “They are fun to drive, quiet and smooth on the road. They can help save you time and money on gas. And for the first time in a long time, filling up just got easier.”
Ford also touts its BlueOval Charge Network as ”the largest public charging network in North America — now including more than 15,000 Tesla fast chargers, with more being added every week.”
Other auto manufacturers have clamored to be able to access Tesla’s fast-charging network, which has more than 50,000 superchargers and is touted as the largest global fast-charging network in the world. Recently, GM announced its vehicles can also access Tesla’s chargers with the purchase of an adapter.
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(https://i.imgur.com/4tYR4w3.jpeg)
Fred Sandford's '51 FORD is alive and well in Ohio
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A couple of electrics that I saw this weekend:
(https://i.imgur.com/33vmWJt.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/V7bWIoN.jpeg)
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I learned to drive (partially) on this 1950 GMC 150 (3/4 ton):
(https://i.imgur.com/NqnbFHa.png)(https://i.imgur.com/k5Ex7jo.png)
I liked the 1990s Dodge and its return to real front fenders. Was it perfect? No, but I think was good for truck styling. Just because a truck looks better doesn't mean it is a better truck.
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Long lines evacuating the Florida coastline right now, folks will be sitting for hours. This is not great for ICE, but it's a really bad use case for EV-- I hope folks have alternative transportation.
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Does an EV run out of power before an ICE when idling?
I-95 Traffic Nightmare: What If You Were Stuck in an Electric Car for 24 Hours? - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/traffic-snowstorm-electric-car/)
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Interesting. And I believe an EV should be more efficient when cooling, rather than heating, since it doesn't have to offset engine heat.
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link wouldn't work for me
new ICEs don't idle anymore - engine shutoff
should be more efficient for EVs to shutoff and turn on
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Most EVs use a heat pump for heating and cooling, so there would be only a small difference depending on T. They also recommend just using the seat and steering wheel heat when it's cold. Apparently that is more efficient than heating the cabin air, but probably isn't as comfortable. I'd probably cycle on and off, much as I'd do in an ICE vehicle.
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don't forget your jacket and cap
I'd guess an EV can run the heat pump a LONG time sitting still
as long as a gasser can idle on 10 gallons of fuel?
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I guess you could just shut it off, but sitting in traffic in 90+ degree heat must suck without AC. I wonder how much juice the EV's use running the AC not moving?
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I guess you could just shut it off, but sitting in traffic in 90+ degree heat must suck without AC. I wonder how much juice the EV's use running the AC not moving?
For this scenario, which is evacuation of the Florida coastline, I'm going to just assume that cars need to run for A/C purposes.
For an ICE, I expect you'll use more power to cool, since the vehicle's climate control must overcome the heat of the engine that is constantly running. In an EV, this heat would be minimal comparatively, so it should consume less power to cool the car's interior to the same temperature.
Just my guess though, haven't seen any data.
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I think they are roughly the same, with a LOT of variables that could make one or the other a bit better. I've seen various studies on this, usually with cold weather, and they are "about the same". Of course, it you get caught with a quarter tank or 20% remaining charge, you're probably in trouble.
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yup, I'd guess more gassers run out of fuel than EVs run out of battery
just cause it's easier and quicker to pump gas and folks take it for granted
EV folks probably pay more attention
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One issue with an EV is that the effective range is between 20% and 80%. I doubt many go under 20% ever, and charging above 80% slows down, usually.
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yup, I'd guess more gassers run out of fuel than EVs run out of battery
just cause it's easier and quicker to pump gas and folks take it for granted
EV folks probably pay more attention
I'd expect most people evacuating for a hurricane take the time to fill up/charge up before leaving? But perhaps not.
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If everyone in your area filled up with gas at the same time, the stations would be empty before it could happen. Our gas tanks have more unused capacity than all the filling stations on an area. It has happened, you get a run on gas, folks think there is a shortage, and then there is one, like toilet paper.
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A lot of stations are running out of gas here. Not just from people leaving, but for people hoarding for their generators. I saw one guy at a gas station with 20 five gallon tanks.
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smart
the early bird gets the worm
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Any time we have weather coming in that might affect the supply of gas, I ensure our tanks are all completely full in all vehicles. Several days beforehand. This is for hurricanes, winter storms, etc.
And if it's one where power might be affected, I gas up my three (3) 5-gallon tanks. That's enough to run the genny for over a week.
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Any time we have weather coming in that might affect the supply of gas, I ensure our tanks are all completely full in all vehicles. Several days beforehand. This is for hurricanes, winter storms, etc.
And if it's one where power might be affected, I gas up my three (3) 5-gallon tanks. That's enough to run the genny for over a week.
I hope the hoarder has a lot of Stabil on hand. OK, I hope he doesn't.
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https://insideevs.com/news/736456/plug-in-hybrids-vs-evs-2024/
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If everyone in your area filled up with gas at the same time, the stations would be empty before it could happen. Our gas tanks have more unused capacity than all the filling stations on an area.
kinda similar to everyone charging their EV at the same time
except it could take down the grid
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I was thinking about that, but I'd guess most EV charging demand is at night, maybe evening. They might go to variable rates at night to encourage folks to charge between 1 and 6 AM someday.
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yup, similar to gas stations
only a problem before a hurricane or other disaster that calls for evacuation
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Yup. When evacuating for a hurricane, everyone will be charging at the same time, and that won't necessarily be overnight. Just as everyone with an ICE will be hitting the gas station at the same time.
No matter how much we improve electrical infrastructure, it's unlikely to be able to handle that kind of peak demand. It won't be built for it, because that's not the most efficient or economical way to build out the infrastructure.
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I had not thought about that one before.
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Interestingly, in a more normal storm where power is out for say ten hours, you can power your house with a pickup truck (if the house is properly equipped, and it's expensive). Supposedly you can go a couple of days. So, if a storm if forecast, folks might also be wanting to "top off" their EV truck ahead of it as well, aside from the hurricane situation.
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if the power is out for an extended period, you can't recharge your EV
of course, if the power is out, gas pumps don't work either
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I'll keep the ICE with the 500 mile range, thank you.
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These "!" signs represent temporary chargers put in by Tesla. There are several location along I-75 in Florida.
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Interestingly, in a more normal storm where power is out for say ten hours, you can power your house with a pickup truck (if the house is properly equipped, and it's expensive). Supposedly you can go a couple of days. So, if a storm if forecast, folks might also be wanting to "top off" their EV truck ahead of it as well, aside from the hurricane situation.
When power goes out, the power companies tend to evaluate the relative importance of service areas and prioritizes restoration for the areas with the most utility. City blocks with important services like gas stations, hospitals etc. that represent a high utility and efficient use of restorative resources, get brought back online first.
Residential areas are lower in priority. So if you recharge your car at home, that could be de-prioritized.
Just some thoughts.
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I'll keep the ICE with the 500 mile range, thank you.
yup, if you're smart enuff to fill a few 5 gallon cans to keep in the garage
you don't need to rely on the gas station
can always siphon a few gallons out of the boat or the neighbor's truck in a pinch
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We never let it go below a half tank, unless we're on a road trip. It has a feature in it that tells me where the nearest gas is, if I hit the reserve fuel level (80 miles range).
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If I had an EV truck and I heard a storm was coming where an outage might hit, I'd try and charge the truck more than normally if I used it as backup.
It's be cheaper to buy a Generac.
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If I had an EV truck and I heard a storm was coming where an outage might hit, I'd try and charge the truck more than normally if I used it as backup.
It's be cheaper to buy a Generac.
$20K all-in for my 24KW, including the underground tank.
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It will be fascinating to watch where all this EV thing ends up down the road. I noted that PHEVs qualify under the California 2035 mandate (whether they are a good idea or not is uncertain, but they are cheaper). IF the CA mandate holds (and it may not), I suspect PHEVs will become popular for a few years at least, maybe some that are "scams" in a sense, and PHEV with say 10 miles of electric range and recharge on 110v. Folks will use them as if they were mild hybrids and rarely if ever plug them in.
I'm seeing more EV delivery vans around here these days, that makes some sense, to me. I saw one USPS EV, I think, a while back. I see some options for EVs down the road, urban vehicles mostly. The idea of an EV large truck is, to me, dubious. The battery weight and charging times must be something. If there is a better option I think it could be hydrogen. Maybe someday truck stops all delivery hydrogen for trucks, and light vehicles go to EV charging stations. Is that THE solution LONG term? I don't know.
I'd like to see more concrete stuff about the solid state batteries and what Toyota has been claiming.
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Toyota is showcasing a series of sustainable developments at the Japan Mobility Bizweek later this month – including its vision of a portable hydrogen cartridge future, which could apparently provide 'swappable' power for next-gen hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs).
Originally a project of Toyota’s mobility technology subsidiary Woven (formerly Woven Planet), the team produced a working prototype of a hydrogen cartridge back in 2022 but has since developed the idea further… and appears to be running with it.
The latest cartridges are lighter and easier to transport, with Toyota claiming the current iteration has been developed with the experience the company has gained in reducing the size and weight of the hydrogen tanks used in its fuel cell electric vehicles.
The concept involves hydrogen cartridges that are compact and light enough to be carried by hand, with one model wearing what looks like an oversized AA battery on his back in a specially design backpack.
With demand waning globally for EVs, it feels as if hydrogen is back on the agenda, with the likes of Hyundai, BMW and Honda all exploring ways of making the technology commercially viable.
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Demand for EVs is not "waning", it's up, by a fair bit, but not as much as had been expected.
The hydrogen in a package concept is interesting. But, then, how do you get hydrogen? (You need a lot of ... electricity.)
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These EVs Delivered the Best Real-World Range in Our Testing (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/evs-with-the-best-real-world-range/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawFzTttleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHXFJjj_VMWZfX-7-DtCLF-8SUdqzgHqePakTzuuJSRheiDwhBKqTM2YvMw_aem_y1O7RzKRUMnBLAqQv9AtaA)
10. 2022 Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor
MotorTrend Road-Trip Range:258 miles
EPA Range:358 miles
Tesla has a reputation for building some of the longest-range EVs on the market, but that's almost entirely based on EPA estimates. The reality is that the Model 3 Dual Motor (https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/)delivered aMotorTrendRoad-Trip Range of 258 miles—a whopping 28 percent below the official range number. That's 100 miles less than buyers might be expecting, so it's no surprise Tesla has been accused of intentionally displaying inaccurate ranges in vehicles (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-ev-lying-range-much-worse-elon-musk/)to match original estimates.
This test was run on a 74-degree California evening in the desert with minimal traffic on one of the flattest and straightest stretches of roads imaginable. These near-perfect real-world conditions are a good indication of how far you can go during one 70-mph jaunt. The fact that it makes this list means the Model 3 has great range, but it's not as great as advertised.
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MotorTrend Road-Trip Range:258 miles
EPA Range:358 miles
____________________________
geez, the EPAs for my gas mileage are much closer
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Several others in the test did better than EPA range. It's just a different test.
Our hybrid is rated at 38 city/37 highway, which is pretty much over stated (I knew this ahead of time). A real figure is probably 33 city/31/highway, the latter figure is very dependent on speed. I saw 40 mpg in the mountains.
The other factors for EV of course is temperature, towing, speed, tires ... state of the battery.
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Demand for EVs is not "waning", it's up, by a fair bit, but not as much as had been expected.
The hydrogen in a package concept is interesting. But, then, how do you get hydrogen? (You need a lot of ... electricity.)
Nonsense. In a lot of plants, the H2 is almost a waste gas, we made a lot of it ( i worked in a de-hydrogenation plant I'm sure you know what that means), we couldn't find enough of a use for it. We made millions of lbs a day.
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I think to get hydrogen one needs a lot of electricity, or power in some form.
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To All,
Due to the surge warnings, if you live near the harbor side of BSM and are worried about your vehicle, golf carts or any electric vehicle being flooded, the Board is allowing you to park at the BSMCC (Linkside Cafe).
Please note, salt water and lithium batteries do not mix and can become an extreme fire hazard. All be well and please stay safe.
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https://electrek.co/2024/10/10/tesla-unveils-cybercab-electric-robotaxi/
$30K by 2026. Using Elon math, that means maybe we'll see it for $50K in 2029, if ever.
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https://electrek.co/2024/10/10/tesla-unveils-cybercab-electric-robotaxi/
$30K by 2026. Using Elon math, that means maybe we'll see it for $50K in 2029, if ever.
Oh we will definitely see it. We’ve seen everything Elon has said he’s going to do. It’ll just take a few extra years and be more expensive than the price that was announced initially, and then eventually the price will fall after a couple years. And if you were being fair/honest about what he said he said the price long term would be that. Meaning…the company needs to recoup all the R&D spent to actually build the fucking thing on the first iteration of the product and the company needs to then scale the product to get production costs down.
But anyway…imagine trying to criticize a guy who shoots for the fucking moon every time out and winds up accomplishing massive things before anyone else? Who fucking cares if he’s a few years late and the price tag winds up being a tad bit higher? He always winds up delivering at least the end of the day.
Imagine trying to criticize someone who has achieved the things Elon Musk has. Lmao. It could take everyone on every internet message board 10,000 lifetimes combined and they wouldn’t be able sniff Musk’s jockstrap.
Co-founded/Co-CEO of PayPal, the first payments/backing over the internet platform in history? Check.
Founded SpaceX, by far the most important and successful aerospace contractor in the US. Building re-usable rockets that land on drone ships in the middle of the ocean. Launching thousands of satellites to create StarLink, the first and only high speed low latency satellite internet service in the entire fucking world. Homeboy is trying to build space ships to bring human beings to fucking Mars. Other aerospace contractors like Boeing can’t even get astronauts to and from a space station. Lol.
Co-founder, CEO, and CTO of Tesla, the only successful American automobile manufacturer in like oh A HUNDRED FUCKING YEARS. And the most important, significant auto maker in the global EV market. Electric cars would be nowhere near where or what they are today without…Elon Musk.
Co-founded and provided all the seed money for OpenAI- the leading entity in AI? Check.
The fucking guy is the hands down the most significant, most important human being alive on planet earth right now and one of the most important figures in recorded world history of mankind. But yeah let’s bitch about the ground breaking never before seen product his companies create don’t always arrive on time and at the projected cost. Lol. I swear to fucking god I’d love to see rando internet dweebs and useless journo fucks who criticize him non stop try to do one fucking thing that guy has done. Would be funny.
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WE don't !@#$% need Space Ships,jobs would be nice.He does show motivation,insight and application - I'll give him that. Bwarb made an observation and didn't go off on a deleted expletive diatribe so spit Elon's cack out
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some folks gonna git paid to build space ships
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Whatever happened to those solar roof tiles he promised?
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I'd guess you can buy some.
Perhaps slightly used
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We’ve seen everything Elon has said he’s going to do.
Oh really? Tesla's are fully autonomous as he's been promising to be right around the corner since 2016?
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Whatever happened to those solar roof tiles he promised?
I priced them out. Too expensive. Would not pay off in my lifetime.
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Elon has delivered on some things, and massively over promised on others.
I hope they can deliver on this Boring concept.
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I think to get hydrogen one needs a lot of electricity, or power in some form.
We didn't use electricity to split H2O if that's what you mean. We used a catalyst to separate the H2 from other hydrocarbons. We did use a lot of power to run machinery in the plant.
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We didn't use electricity to split H2O if that's what you mean. We used a catalyst to separate the H2 from other hydrocarbons. We did use a lot of power to run machinery in the plant.
That's what I love about this place... We have people who actually know shit :72:
I wonder how much this scales? I.e. if we wanted to convert the entirety of US long-haul trucking (the area where I think BEV has the worst value prop) to hydrogen fuel cells, would our own petroleum industry produce enough excess hydrogen to cover a large part of said industry?
Because I know CD is correct--splitting H20 to get hydrogen is a VERY energy-intensive process. But if we have existing processes for which hydrogen is a natural byproduct, that they literally don't know what to do with, collecting it and selling it might be a good thing...
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In many processes, the H2 is considered a waste gas. Lots of h2 heavy streams are actually sent into the off-gas header, to be used as fuel for cracking furnaces or other heating needs. Off gas was typically comprised of differing levels of H2, methane, and small amounts of various hydrocarbons. NOT ethylene or propylene, burning these make large amounts of pollutants ( HR VOC) and wastes product. Not to mention the fouling.
That side of the unit was not my responsibility, so some of the details are fuzzy. What I do know is that we burned a lot of our H2 (as opposed to methane) in our furnaces, but eventually we added a header as part of a project to export the h2. I think it actually ended up going to an industrial gas maker, who would then refine it even more to high purity.
As I stated, I worked in a dehydrogenation plant, where our job was literally to remove the hydrogen from hydrocarbons.
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WE don't !@#$% need Space Ships,jobs would be nice.He does show motivation,insight and application - I'll give him that. Bwarb made an observation and didn't go off on a deleted expletive diatribe so spit Elon's cack out
Honestly what he’s done/doing in the space sector is just mind boggling. He’s driven the cost of space access so much that it will open up opportunities that we just haven’t thought of yet.
it’s kinda like the smart phone in a way, that the phone itself was the enabling technology. Things like Uber, social media, and other apps needed the smart phone to exist.
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The buzz word around the petrochemicals industry is something called circularity.
For instance, in one of my old plants we made ethylene ( monomer used in plastics) by using methane as fuel in furnaces that would heat up to around 1500-2000 deg F. We would then run ethane and propane through coils in the furnace, which would transfer the heat and crack the molecules, releasing the bonds and splitting out monomers, h2, and other hydrocarbons. The combusted methane, now mostly CO2, leaves the furnace as a flue gas. We’d pass it through heat exchangers on the way up the stack to recapture some of the heat, but otherwise it’s basically emissions at this point.
The new plants will first convert the methane to h2 via catalyst, and then burn the h2, which only emits water vapor ( conveniently ignore that water vapor is a much worse greenhouse gas than co2).
The idea is that instead of emitting GHG through the stack, you either convert them into more environmentally friendly substances, or capture the GHG and then inject them back into the earth.
It’s going to cost way more to do it this way, but ultimately even the big companies know the days of unfettered emissions are coming to an end.
Please note that we very carefully controlled and monitored for pollutants such as h2s, VOCs, and other unwanted emissions.
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That's what I love about this place... We have people who actually know shit :72:
I don't contribute much, but... I learn a LOT!
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Making hydrogen requires a lot of energy. It’s energy storage, not energy production.
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The new plants will first convert the methane to h2 via catalyst, and then burn the h2, which only emits water vapor ( conveniently ignore that water vapor is a much worse greenhouse gas than co2).
That's true but largely irrelevant, as water vapor won't just stay in the atmosphere in excess for long stretches of time like CO2.
The same is somewhat true of methane, also a worse GHG than CO2. Although methane will persist in the atmosphere for a much longer time than H2O, but nowhere near as long as CO2.
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That's true but largely irrelevant, as water vapor won't just stay in the atmosphere in excess for long stretches of time like CO2.
The same is somewhat true of methane, also a worse GHG than CO2. Although methane will persist in the atmosphere for a much longer time than H2O, but nowhere near as long as CO2.
Yes, of course I know this, but most people don't fully comprehend. And, I don't know this for sure, but I bet they are going to cool the flue gas down enough to actually recapture the water so that they can collect it and reuse it as high quality condensate to use in boiler feed water service. High quality BFW is very important for use in turbines and other processes.
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How Much Does It Cost to Charge a Tesla? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawGIt5pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHWjOZ1DClVP86ZFQxu4e4uvr3eSeBsJe9xzJ0-4DqPxR8xAu0r3L2c01cw_aem_X0nKq98orTTz-Q37mRWFEQ)
Starting to get figured out in public press.
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2027 Scout Traveler First Look: A Proper Electric 4x4 from an Unlikely Source (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2027-scout-traveler-first-look-review/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawGLTTxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHb1zYpaugBGkjA34FqcYO87DTzKTG6F6EIMIAtzPjTUHi7KTMZE1hGsIJQ_aem_qD6OgaY4ldDLdH9Gohcw0w)
Scout Motors is in the process of building a new plant in Blythewood, South Carolina, where both the Traveler SUV and Terra pickups will be manufactured. Scout plans to sell directly to consumers, using a single-login solution that will cover both sales and service. Scout has not announced exact pricing, but says the Traveler will start under $60,000, and will qualify for incentives that will reduce that to around $50,000. Deliveries are expected to begin some time in 2027, but both the Traveler and the Terra are available for reservation (with a refundable $100 fee) right now at www.scoutmotors.com (http://www.scoutmotors.com/).
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South Korea’s Hyundai subsidiary Rotem has just unveiled its vision for the future of main battle tanks for the Republic of Korea (ROK), hydrogen-powered powertrains.
The next version of ROK’s K-series battle tanks, the K3, will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells and feature other advanced tech to become one of the world’s most sophisticated tanks.
The hydrogen fuel cells will replace the K-series diesel engines. This will be done in steps, with the first prototypes featuring hybrid hydrogen and diesel engines. It is just the latest in a line of announcements from South Korea in its broader aim to transition its war machines away from combustion engines.
“Next-generation main battle tank surpasses all capabilities of today’s MBTs, providing more efficient mission employment with the latest technologies for future warfare. As battlefield conditions change, more changes are required to MBT’s firepower, command and control, and survivability to be more optimized and to create maximum combat synergy,” Hyundai Rotem explains on its website.
The new K3 will feature improved stealth capabilities, autonomous driving and slave drones, and a new 130-mm smoothbore main gun. “The next-generation tank will have stronger preemptive strike capabilities using an artificial intelligence-based fire control system,” an official at Hyundai Rotem said.
The move is more than a move to make military assets, like tanks, more sustainable. It also offers robust improvements that should make the new tank more versatile and deadly on the battlefield. The first is having a much-reduced heat signature due to the lack of hot exhaust.
Fuel cell technology will also dramatically reduce the noise the tank generates when on the move. It will also provide the tank with greater acceleration and mobility, not to mention vastly superior fuel economy.
Due to its fewer moving parts, the new tank should also benefit from much-improved maintenance. It will also be able to traverse steep and rugged terrains better.
According to Army Recognition, the new K3 will be operated by a skeleton crew of three: one driver, a commander, and a gunner. The crew will be housed in a heavily armored capsule near the hull’s front.
This design aims to improve crew protection by isolating them from potential threats from autoloaders and ammunition storage. At the core of its firepower is an unmanned turret equipped with a remotely controlled 130mm smoothbore cannon.
This should enable it to engage targets up to 3 miles (5 kilometers) away. It will also feature advanced armor, with modular steel, ceramic, and composites creative armor.
The tank will also feature multi-purpose anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) with a range of 5 miles (8 kilometers), including advanced modes for both line-of-sight and beyond-line-of-sight engagements. A remote-controlled weapons station on the turret, which can accommodate weapons ranging from 12.7mm to 30mm, further enhances these capabilities.
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Silicon anodes are ahead of solid-state batteries in race to power EVs (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/05/silicon-anodes-are-ahead-of-solid-state-batteries-in-race-to-power-evs.html)
“Silicon based anodes promise to be the next-generation technology in the anode field, providing a solution for faster charging,” Georgi Georgiev, battery raw materials analyst at consultancy Fastmarkets, told CNBC via email.
Georgiev said several industry players have been looking into the potential of silicon anodes, from well-established anode suppliers in China and South Korea to new players like Taiwan’s ProLogium and U.S. manufacturers Group14 and Sila Nanotechnologies (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/09/sila-disruptor-50.html).
“Especially in the West, advances in the area of silicon anodes [are] seen as strategic opportunity to catch up with China, which dominates the graphite-based anode supply chains with Chinese anode producers holding 98% of the global anode market for batteries,” Georgiev said.
“However, there are significant technical challenges going to 100% silicon anode such as silicon expansion affecting the longevity of the batteries and currently there are several routes to produce silicon anodes,” he added.
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EV "batteries on wheels" could save hundreds of billions in grid costs by 2040, report finds (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2024/11/04/ev-batteries-on-wheels-could-save-hundreds-of-billions-in-grid-costs-by-2040-report-finds/?fbclid=IwY2xjawGXJBpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHcJ2FGyg55LfaJXC_vQ75w62FrhMsztlhtAbycWdwLkfftzXNpEGUrSn7w_aem_96t6zaxsLGYUxI1KQC1UcA)
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Lucid, Tesla, Rivian, and Fisker Have Another No Good Very Bad Day (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/lucid-tesla-rivian-and-fisker-bad-quarter-2024/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawGXQw9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHcSDfD9MnegXktMjruZLGIPadRv7kGYJHn83dCOnrBnVIIov2tbKn5at5Q_aem_qOC8bJnnVr0e0FvWZV68Dg)
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Somebody here bought a "Mustang" Mach E that was in the charger space but not hooked up. I thought it looks OK, but isn't a Mustang of course. I idly wondered if they didn't know how to hook it up to recharge.
I think we have about 7 pure EVs here now, probably 200 or so total vehicles. There is one Jeep PHEV. The garage is on three levels and I don't go into the one on 2 very often. Our spot is on 1. I go outside usually on 3.
The lower level is basically a basement, all parking garage, the 2 level is where the lobby and main entrance is, the 3 level is another exit because we're on a slight incline.
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2024 Chevrolet Silverado EV RST First Drive Review: Is the Range Problem Solved? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevrolet-silverado-ev-rst-first-drive-review-2/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawGZcL5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHQJmrB7V5zljPHZn0jrGnUFCGUNvkiz3EKonAQvbrrNOaopNTIA_SZl0JQ_aem_9vJxVUKm16iUc9vAXwbk6w)
Buyers who charge at home will likely marvel at the money saved when they refuel their full-size truck for about $40, while those using the exorbitantly priced fast-charging infrastructure will wonder why they’re still paying more than $100 to fill up. At the most powerful stations, the Silverado can be jolted with up to 350 kilowatts to add 100 miles in 10 minutes of charging, which sounds good by today’s standards. In reality, the advantage of more powerful charging is likely to be largely wiped out by the Silverado EV’s lower efficiency. Once real-world efficiency knocks the numbers down by 20 percent or more, Chevy’s truck will likely be marginally quicker at regaining range than every other EV truck we’ve tested.
$96,395
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Nope.
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I'd guess anyone who can afford a $100 K truck wouldn't worry much about fuel costs.
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Yes.
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13 Reasons Why the 2024 Cadillac Celestiq Is Worth $300,000 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/13-reasons-why-2024-cadillac-celestiq-is-worth-300000/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawGZnBFleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHf-R6bBCCgungAi80_PNPssURiLwWC9mVX8z9Ttl-bTyvxFCuWKywA-Viw_aem_tVVy1UamfOkjkj-KmnOa5g)
If I had $300 K to spend on a car, I would spend it on something else.
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If I had $300 K to spend on a car, I would spend it on a car and a truck
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If I had $300K to spend on a car, I might spend it on 4-5 restored classic Mustangs. :)
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If I had $300 K to spend on a car, I would spend it on something else.
Ya like a new roof,furnace,A.C. and a good used Civic,Corolla,Accord,Camry
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$300K???
(https://i.imgur.com/DeiPsiA.png)
And This....................
(https://i.imgur.com/9o6E3hz.png)
and $88K for gasoline and maintenance
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or since I have a Vette I'm happy with...........
(https://i.imgur.com/Sstqcxb.png)
and these............
(https://i.imgur.com/dRlWTGS.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/auLcj4A.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/n1Mzq9x.jpeg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/8ZHQNSH.png)
I doubt many run down below 20% very often, and many may stop at 80%, so the rela world ranges would be lower, and weather dependent.
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I usually fuel up with 50 miles to go if not sooner
I rarely push it to less than 40
The model S has about the range of the C8.
the C8 doesn't get good mileage and has a small tank
and takes about 5 minutes to refill
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How much do you pay to charge up away from home, usually?
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600 miles for my gasser.
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with the C8?
$50
I don't have a Model S
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In my dottage, I usually stop every 3 hours or so on a long Interstate trip, ~200 miles. I'll fill up if it's cheap, or I know gas further is more expensive (Florida).
We might stop at breakfast at McDs and then lunch somewhere, and then drive the rest of it, we're usually good for 450 miles or so in a day. We could do more, but we're not in a hurry.
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I'm usually in a hurry
when the brother lived in Round Rock (900+ miles)
I'd stop once or twice
usually in OKC - cheapest gas
twice with the truck - range
didn't usually sit down to eat
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Does an EV Work as Well in Cold Weather? (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a60344222/does-an-ev-work-as-well-in-cold-weather/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR13DgKvGA-RGp0ZHWnHat55D1g9FcvnCr1sKzRks-F-7JMwWSUUY-mAn3I_aem_2GAWwT6FcHN0KbrLpc5mbA)
Simple answer is no, but the drop off might not be as severe as some claim.
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things are usually exaggerated depending what side you're standing on
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Waymo’s driverless taxis are now open to the public in Los Angeles. Starting Tuesday, anyone with the Waymo One app can hail a fully autonomous ride in specific parts of the city. Previously, only riders on a waitlist could use the service. While LA joins San Francisco and Phoenix as Waymo cities, the service area in LA is smaller, covering areas from Playa Vista and Marina del Rey up to Santa Monica and West Hollywood, with Little Tokyo as the eastern edge.
We parked at Kroger the other day next to three of these, all Jaguars, charging up. A driver was there waiting and we chatted a bit. In the time we shopped, his car went from 57% to 77%, maybe 20 minutes. My wife asked him if they could see red lights, and he said yes, they have drivers here now, just tooling around I guess checking them out. I guess they will go "live" (sort of) in a year or so.
I think this is a "coming thing", and in five years perhaps all taxis will be autonomous in cities (???). Is this a better way to handle mass transit in effect?
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Trump's cut to Biden's EV tax credit, backed by Musk, may impact auto industry, experts say | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-cut-bidens-ev-tax-credit-impact-auto-industry-experts-say)
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I'm ok with cutting that EV tax credit
It didn't seem to be working as well as planned
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Waymo’s driverless taxis are now open to the public in Los Angeles. Starting Tuesday, anyone with the Waymo One app can hail a fully autonomous ride in specific parts of the city. Previously, only riders on a waitlist could use the service. While LA joins San Francisco and Phoenix as Waymo cities, the service area in LA is smaller, covering areas from Playa Vista and Marina del Rey up to Santa Monica and West Hollywood, with Little Tokyo as the eastern edge.
We parked at Kroger the other day next to three of these, all Jaguars, charging up. A driver was there waiting and we chatted a bit. In the time we shopped, his car went from 57% to 77%, maybe 20 minutes. My wife asked him if they could see red lights, and he said yes, they have drivers here now, just tooling around I guess checking them out. I guess they will go "live" (sort of) in a year or so.
I think this is a "coming thing", and in five years perhaps all taxis will be autonomous in cities (???). Is this a better way to handle mass transit in effect?
I have several friends who routinely rely on Waymo in SF--and I see them all over the place on my commute (mostly as a bicyclist). They can get confused more easily than a human driver, but they drive conservatively and are quite effective as people movers.
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I routinely see buses here nearly empty. I wonder if Waymo isn't a better option. Maybe it's too pricey.
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One thing I've wondered is whether it's a gateway for some people. I know that our bus service here (where I live) is better than many people realize. For now, riding the bus in the U.S. is largely considered something for the poor. In countries where the gas prices are higher, the cities are denser, and the barrier to entry for drivers' licenses is higher, using the bus is common for most socio-economic strata.
I wonder if getting used to the idea of not driving oneself will help people realize that taking the bus (train, or other) is a better option than they realized--particularly if they can rely on a driverless car when things go awry (i.e. bus is really late, broken down, etc.). For instance, I know some people who have relied on Lyft/Uber have realized that the bus, while less convenient, is so much cheaper, that it's worth using instead.
I have no idea, but it's a thought that has occurred to me.
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I had planned when we moved here to get on the bus and ride the entire circuit to see how it was and where it went. I can look at the route on line of course, but seeing it firsthand is probably some different. There are several bus lines that come near us, they of course will concentrate around a MARTA station. There is one that goes out to the baseball park I mean to try, and never had, traffic out there is atrocious, and that county didn't buy into the subway system.
MARTA rail was intended to be much more extensive, but the funds for that simply aren't there. There are funds to build hyper expensive toll lanes on freeways though.
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a vehicle is a considerable expense, but folks like the freedom and convenience
I might try to get by w/o a vehicle if I lived in a condo in the center of a city like Atlanta/Austin
and was no longer golfing
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We went from 2 to 1 when we moved here. That of course saves a lot of money. The times we've needed another car are about zero. And if one of us was out and the other really needed to get somewhere, we'd use Lyft.
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a vehicle is a considerable expense, but folks like the freedom and convenience
I might try to get by w/o a vehicle if I lived in a condo in the center of a city like Atlanta/Austin
and was no longer golfing
There are a couple of municipal golf courses in/near downtown Austin. Cheap uber ride, or a rigorous walk if you don't mind schlepping your clubs 20-30 blocks.
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As a San Francisco suburbanite, it does strike me every time I visit Wisconsin (and many other places), that what would work well for public transportation in my suburb, would not work at all in Waukesha County (Milwaukee suburbs and exurbs). One reason people should get out and see other parts of the country.
On the other hand, Madison has a great public transit system (that could continue to get better).
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As a San Francisco suburbanite, it does strike me every time I visit Wisconsin (and many other places), that what would work well for public transportation in my suburb, would not work at all in Waukesha County (Milwaukee suburbs and exurbs). One reason people should get out and see other parts of the country.
On the other hand, Madison has a great public transit system (that could continue to get better).
That existed even when I was there.
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(https://i.imgur.com/K6BpQrK.png)
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Auto industry pulls back after unprecedented EV, self-driving spending (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/25/auto-industry-pulls-back-spending-evs-self-driving.html)
After years of spending capital freely on all-electric and autonomous vehicles, automakers are starting to pull back.
It takes a significant capital investment every time an automaker launches a new product or updates current models, causing a spending ripple effect throughout the global supply chain.
Now, General Motors and Ford Motor are cutting billions in fixed costs, including laying off thousands of workers, while others such as Nissan Motor, Volkswagen Group and Chrysler parent Stellantis are taking even more drastic measures to reduce headcounts and trim spending.
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The Chevrolet Silverado EV RST Is the New Electric Pickup Leader (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a60872392/2024-chevrolet-silverado-ev-rst-first-drive-review/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR14f1ToD8KgRvLHLrgBmXw8Bcj4iPLTYcp3yEZNBG0rsBHKfJnTn_s9--g_aem_awNocZvdFSC14osPTfFMtQ)
The Silverado EV RST is the fully-loaded model with every optional add-on thrown in from the head-up display to a spray on bedliner, to panoramic roof. All that will cost you $96,495, including the destination charge. That’s more expensive, than the fanciest version of the conventional Silverado, but in the same ballpark as other top-spec EV pickups.
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Not a chance in hell.
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I guess it's a status thing, for folks who value appearing to have "status". I like having some status with an airline or hotel chain, that's about it.
Pickup trucks in general may be a status/lifestyle thing for many who never use the bed for anything serious. But anyone shelling out nearly $100 K for a truck probably isn't worried about fuel costs. It is kind of neat on paper than you can power your house with one of these things for a couple days with the right attachments.
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You can get a whole-house generator for $15-20K installed.
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whole bunch of bells and whistles I wouldn't need or pay for
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There are obviously a slew of issues with EVs we've already discussed, one of which is most of us are not interested. The auto makers all went kind of all in on the concept and now are seeing a growing market with far too many new entries and China becoming a large player.
VW seems to be in pretty significant trouble and Stellantis may join them.
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There are obviously a slew of issues with EVs we've already discussed, one of which is most of us are not interested. The auto makers all went kind of all in on the concept and now are seeing a growing market with far too many new entries and China becoming a large player.
VW seems to be in pretty significant trouble and Stellantis may join them.
This is what happens when Government meddles with businesses.
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Sometimes you eat the Bar, sometimes the Bar eats you
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You think it's bad now?
Wait until the EV mandates and tax credits go away.
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The other factor of course is gasoline prices. A lot of folks think Trump policies will significantly lower them (I do not). A recession would do the trick though.
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Gas prices here under $2.50/gal
That's affordable and probably already hurting EV sales.
Probably not going much less.
Maybe down to $2
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The British government's plans to push zero emission vehicles (ZEV) are hurting the industry. This was admitted by Enterprise Secretary Jonathan Reynolds, who this week said he was "profoundly concerned" about the harmful effects of the plan to eliminate the production of new gasoline and diesel vehicles.
Rather than a hard stop to zero, Reynolds promised a shift of gears. He announced he would open consultations to design "a better way forward" to arrive at the same goal.
The Conservatives are not satisfied either. In a heated exchange in parliament on Wednesday, Prime Minister Keir Starmer and the opposition's Kemi Badenoch blamed each other for the failures of green policies: "Does the prime minister stand by his promise to ban the sale of petrol cars by 2030 even if more jobs will be lost?" asked Badenoch, to which Starmer responded by reminding him that the mandates "were actually introduced by the last government [which was Conservative]."
The mandate sets a percentage of zero-emission vehicles that manufacturers must sell. Those who do not comply must pay a penalty. The percentage scales year by year, this year being 22% of total sales and reaching 80% by 2030. The current government, however, had pledged to push up the total ban on gasoline cars from 2035 to 2030.
The debate was stoked after Stellantis announced that one of its subsidiaries, Vauxhall, would close a van factory, putting 1,100 jobs at risk. Although it announced plans to open another factory, it maintained that the closure had occurred "within the context of the U.K.’s ZEV Mandate," which it called "stringent."
The announcement came days after Ford reported that it will cut 800 jobs over the next three years to reduce production of electric cars in the United Kingdom alone, and it will eliminate 4,000 in Europe. In announcing the cuts, the automaker argued that it had suffered "significant losses in recent years," noting: "The industry shift to electrified vehicles and new competition has been highly disruptive."
Ford and other major industry players speak of a mismatch between state-mandated obligations and consumer demand. According to U.K. media outlet The Telegraph, so far this year, only 18% of new cars sold have been electric. Many manufacturers, moreover, have fallen below the production target.
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These mandates are kind of amusing, to me. Not amusing to car companies.
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Mandates of any sort are not amusing.
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They are "kind of amusing" to me because reality is so far off said mandates, and unpopular mandates end up being changed.
I agree with some mandates. I also agree that a lot of them are "kind of amusing" and silly, counter to human nature.
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https://thehill.com/homenews/ap/ap-business/ap-chinas-getting-a-big-electric-car-battery-swapping-boost-in-2025-would-that-work-across-the-globe/?tbref=hp
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I recently got my first taste of what I believe was a hybrid. I think it was probably a hybrid, I don't know. I rented it, they didn't tell me, and I didn't ask. I noticed that the engine throttled down to basically nothing at stops and in park. It audibly kicked back up when I let off the brake and accelerated. I also noticed at the pump that the SUV (I believe it was a Mazda CX-90) only took about 13 gallons of fuel, about the same as my small sedan whose tank is usually far smaller than SUVs, yet it traveled as far as I would've expected for an SUV that takes 25 or 30 gallons. I also noticed the engine sort of shutting down when I hit cruise control. It was all new to me, and my guess it it was a hybrid.
The problem was that the engine kicking back in with full force was not an immediate thing. Close, but not quite, and it was a bit jerky to boot. So at a red light, I didn't get the smooth take-off I'm used to with gas engines. Also, if I was cruising along and decided to pass someone, it took it a minute to use its full strength, so to speak, to perk up enough to get around them.
I didn't really care for how it handled, and the jerkiness of the engine shutting "on" and "off" made me wonder how healthy it all was for said engine. (On and off are probably not the right terms for that, but whatevs.) Less gas cost was nice, but if I have a choice I doubt I'd buy something like that.
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Some regular cars have start-stop which can be jerky. They are not hybrids.
Our car is a hybrid and it’s hard to tell when the enigine cuts off.
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Maybe that's what I had. But I wonder how it "stopped" when I was zooming down the highway at 75 mph. My vehicles have always continued roaring audibly at top speed.
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The CX90 is a mild hybrid. It may have shut down its engine briefly at 75mph. Ours does not.
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I've had that start/stop on rental cars before. It never really bothered me. I wouldn't mind having it on my car as it would be a nice little gas saver, but alas it wasn't available.
My wife used to have it when she was driving the 3-series BMW, and she turned it off because she didn't like it.
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I'd probably get used to the feel of it. My bigger issue was feeling like surely it can't be good for the engine long term. That kind of jerking I was feeling is usually something that would make me think I'm about to have to pay a mechanic a bunch of money. I assume there's data on that kind of thing, and I'm not much of a mechanic, so I don't exactly have an informed opinion. I do know that in general, vibrations are not good on machines long term. My little car has been going since I bought it in 2008. I wouldn't feel good about the engine in that Mazda making it anywhere near that long.
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Usually start stop can be turned off.
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Then I guess you'd be stuck with the pretty limited range of an SUV with a 13-14 gallon gas tank.
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My bigger issue was feeling like surely it can't be good for the engine long term. That kind of jerking I was feeling is usually something that would make me think I'm about to have to pay a mechanic a bunch of money. I assume there's data on that kind of thing, and I'm not much of a mechanic, so I don't exactly have an informed opinion. I do know that in general, vibrations are not good on machines long term.
Yeah, and I was raised to think that constant start/stop and cranking the engine would wear things out faster than not doing so... Have to feel like it would be hell on the starter, and the engine.
But... I also know how the pace of engineering goes, and what was true when I was in my teens and early 20s are probably now "solved problems".
I've noticed when I've driven rentals with the feature that it doesn't do it until the engine is fully warmed up, as it's probably "cold starts" that are more wear-and-tear on the engine than starting when hot. And if you're stop/start enough that it might be draining the battery it'll stop doing it for a while.
I assume the engineering and reliability teams at these companies have data that says it's ok. And as someone who deals with high-precision electromechanical systems and has spent a good portion of my career supporting customers when things are failing, there's no "well it doesn't fail until 100K miles so it doesn't matter for warranty purposes"... Because everything that is more unreliable at >100K miles is also more unreliable at every mileage, and statistically they're going to have to deal with some of those failures within warranty. It's possible that they factor this in as a cost of doing business to hit CAFE standards and it's a reliability/cost trade-off, of course. But I'm more inclined to think that the designers think the failure rate is low enough to not be a concern.
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I'll just put up with my V-8 and 18 gallon tank and 500 miles of range
gas is cheap - $2.33/gallon earlier this week
$40 for 500 miles
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But... I also know how the pace of engineering goes, and what was true when I was in my teens and early 20s are probably now "solved problems".
...I assume the engineering and reliability teams at these companies have data that says it's ok.
...But I'm more inclined to think that the designers think the failure rate is low enough to not be a concern.
That may well be. I just get skeptical, knowing there are a lot of planned obsolescence business strategies out there.
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I'll just put up with my V-8 and 18 gallon tank and 500 miles of range
gas is cheap - $2.33/gallon earlier this week
$40 for 500 miles
Guys who buy $60K+ sports cars as their "toy" when they have another daily driver probably aren't that worried about gas cost savings.
I'm no different. If I was worried about the monetary effect of gas cost savings, the proceeds of selling my toy (the Jeep) would buy a LOT of gallons of gas for the Flex... But instead I'm doing things to the Jeep to not only continue owning it, but to make it LESS gas efficient... I.e. driving it with the top off, lifting it, and soon to be adding weight to it with new fenders/bumpers/side steps, and then adding significant fuel efficiency drain when I put the big 35" tires on after all that...
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I'll just be happy if, by the time I go to buy my next vehicle, there's still a fully gas engine to be had that is reasonably affordable.
I'd really like another truck, I've been without one for several years now. They are way more expensive now than when I bought one last time.
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That may well be. I just get skeptical, knowing there are a lot of planned obsolescence business strategies out there.
I'd venture that the ratio between laymen claiming some business practices is a "planned obsolescence" strategy and it actually being the case (vs not) is probably 99:1.
It only takes one lemon to ruin a customer for life. Just ask @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) about his Toyota Camry Solara experience.
Assuming everything is "planned obsolescence" is an insult to the engineers working their ASSES off to make the best products they possibly can. Are there business constraints on how much reliability you can design into something? Always.
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Well, the alternatives are our engineers are getting worse at their jobs.
My grandparents owned multiple appliances that lasted decades. I happen to know a lot of their peers had the same thing, stuff just lasted forever. My appliances last maybe 10-12 years, and it seems to be relatively common with people I know.
Interestingly, where I first heard the term was from a mechanical engineer buddy of mine who was way into cars as a hobby. He claimed to me years ago that the technology existed to build a car that would last for decades with minimal maintenance, but nobody would build it because they need more frequent customers. Don't know if he's right or wrong--I don't have his expertise or other biases--but it had the ring of truth to it.
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Well, the alternatives are our engineers are getting worse at their jobs.
My grandparents owned multiple appliances that lasted decades. I happen to know a lot of their peers had the same thing, stuff just lasted forever. My appliances last maybe 10-12 years, and it seems to be relatively common with people I know.
Interestingly, where I first heard the term was from a mechanical engineer buddy of mine who was way into cars as a hobby. He claimed to me years ago that the technology existed to build a car that would last for decades with minimal maintenance, but nobody would build it because they need more frequent customers. Don't know if he's right or wrong--I don't have his expertise or other biases--but it had the ring of truth to it.
That's excellent anecdotal evidence. It's also bullshit.
You know why the Maytag appliance repairman commercials way back in the day, where the Maytag repairman was constantly bored because Maytag didn't break, was so powerful? Because appliances failed CONSTANTLY and paying repairmen to come repair your appliances was a regular occurrence for regular folks. When was the last time you called an appliance repair man? (Note: this is a difficult thing of course, as being an engineer myself I just repair my own--I had a bit of a "lemon" dryer that I was into about 4 times before it needed to be replaced, swapping heating elements, and at one point swapping the drive belt and a seized glide wheel--it was eventually a motor death that caused me to replace it. I had a microwave die where a replacement control board from eBay brought it back. IMHO being your own appliance repairman is still sometimes important...)
As it relates to cars, have we not seen a tremendous improvement in automobile reliability over the last several decades? When was the last time that you had to do a "tune up" like we did 30 years ago? One of the issues actually facing the automobile industry is that cars are too damn reliable and there isn't as much turnover as there used to be. They don't require the same level of maintenance they used to. Don't you remember your dad back in the old days having to constantly check and adjust things on the car to keep it running? How much of that do you personally do today?
Back in those days, stuff didn't just "last forever" and the stuff that did required constant maintenance to be able to last forever.
And the engineers are dealing with a lot of additional constraints. Now you won't buy a washer/dryer that doesn't have 17 distinct cycle modes for whatever you want, when your mom was dealing with a washer/dryer that had "on or off". Now we're dealing with cars that have extensive computer controls so they make 300+ hp while actually making more than 8 mpg, so things have gotten increasingly more complex. And yet we STILL see improvements in reliability.
There's an issue in our modern world where people are buying disposable trash from the lowest cost country manufacturer because they can just look at the internet and buy based purely on cost. That's where "planned obsolescence" makes sense--you don't care if what you sell is trash because you just want the sale. But that situation diminishes the farther you go up the price ladder, to the point where buying appliances or vehicles, people actually care a little bit about quality/reliability.
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As I understand it, a big reason for the massively improved consumer mechancial goods (including cars) is precision engineering. Basically, the ability to use computers (and other tools) to build devices to a much higher (more precise) spec. That's why in the last 25 or so years our consumer goods (including cars) have become so much more reliable. And car engines, in particular, have become so much more efficient.
Now, there is more complexity to many of these things, and complex things often run into problems, and there are more parts that are made of plastic compounds, which often wear out sooner than the metal components used in the old days. So, yes, your 2024 washer and dryer probably won't last as a unit as long as the 1970 washer and dryer, but during their operative life they will perform much better, and break down far less. The other part of the equation that has changed is that the relative cost of the machines to the cost of labor (i.e., the repair person) has come way down. It's not that you can't repair the machines, it's that for the cost of the repair, you can buy a new one (or very close to it). So why keep your 2009 washer, when for about 30% more than the cost of repair, you can have a 2025 washer that cleans better, uses less water and electricity (or gas), and is faster?
And, if you have it in you, a lot of the things that wear out (heating coils, springs, spindles, even circuit boards) are pretty easy to replace. I've replaced the heating coil in my dryer three times now ($15 part). Works great.
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Usually start stop can be turned off.
Not permanently disabled. Impossible, at least on the MB.
I shut it off manually as soon as I get in the car.
The most violent thing you can do to an engine?
Start it.
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https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=411581
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https://youtu.be/KUQIxh3rrpE
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My own experience is that appliances and cars are far more reliable and maintenance free than in 1980.
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not mine
washers, dryers, refrigerators fail more often
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Dishwashers too. I'm on my third one since we moved into this house 13 years ago. So disappointing.
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We bought a new washer dryer pair a bit back. It’s astonishing how many options they offer.
Complexity.
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one of the problems
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That's excellent anecdotal evidence. It's also bullshit.
If you say so. It's all the experience I have. Odd to me that all the people I know and all the places I've lived, it's always the same thing.
When was the last time you called an appliance repair man?
Literally a couple times a year. And if you think that's bullshit, I'm happy to let you pick up the bills on them. Conversely, about 5 years ago I replaced a dishwasher for my grandmother. I'd never known anything other than that old dishwasher at her house, and I asked her when they bought it. Her being the type who kept records of everything, she went to her filing cabinet to check. It was over 40 years old. I used to have to take her to visit her friends, most of whom I've also known most of my life. I couldn't help but notice their appliances were really old. When I asked if they ever had problems they would tell me that some of them had, once, a long time ago but still years after purchase, and then when it was fixed they haven't had any more problems. Oh, and my grandma's washer and dryer are almost as old as I am. There's a belt in the dryer that's been replaced, that's all I know of. However, when my grandfather was around, he may well have made repairs I don't know about.
As it relates to cars, have we not seen a tremendous improvement in automobile reliability over the last several decades? When was the last time that you had to do a "tune up" like we did 30 years ago?
I don't know about "have to." I still do them, and I routinely maintain the crap out of my own vehicles, so I can't really say what would happen if I didn't check as much as I check, and stay on top of changing the fluids and whatever other little routine maintenances I can think to do. What I can tell you is that the last car I had was a good car. Truly. I ran it for a long time. Eventually, I started having to replace every little thing on it until virtually nothing of the original engine remained. My grandpa's old Ford truck from the 50's on the other hand? My uncle still has it, and that thing is running with, as far as I know, nobody really doing much to it. Belts have had to be replaced, of course.
Back in those days, stuff didn't just "last forever" and the stuff that did required constant maintenance to be able to last forever.
This seems valid. Anecdotally, men used to know more about how to take care of their stuff, and they did so.
And the engineers are dealing with a lot of additional constraints. Now you won't buy a washer/dryer that doesn't have 17 distinct cycle modes for whatever you want, when your mom was dealing with a washer/dryer that had "on or off". Now we're dealing with cars that have extensive computer controls so they make 300+ hp while actually making more than 8 mpg, so things have gotten increasingly more complex. And yet we STILL see improvements in reliability.
My current car has done pretty well, so anecdotally, I'd agree on that front. I've kept it up, but it hasn't fallen apart like my last one. Although, I'm pretty sure the clutch is going to go out any day now, but I don't count that, because that's gonna happen to every car sooner or later.
There's an issue in our modern world where people are buying disposable trash from the lowest cost country manufacturer because they can just look at the internet and buy based purely on cost. That's where "planned obsolescence" makes sense--you don't care if what you sell is trash because you just want the sale. But that situation diminishes the farther you go up the price ladder, to the point where buying appliances or vehicles, people actually care a little bit about quality/reliability.
Our washer, dryer, refrigerator, microwave, and dishwashers aren't cheap. They're actually quite high-end. Again, I'm happy to forward you my repair bills and the new purchases I've had to make when they crapped out to the point it wasn't worth another repair to me. The service industry for appliance repair is thriving in my city, if you want to argue that, ok. It should be drying up and becoming a thing of the past if you're correct. BUT, I grant you, everything I say is anecdotal, and I have no engineering expertise. But you can hardly blame me for having the opinion I have, if you'd dropped as much $ on appliance repairs as I have. We haven't even gotten into computers and phones.
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(https://i.imgur.com/LjHGOwJ.jpeg)
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That's excellent anecdotal evidence. It's also bullshit.
If you say so. It's all the experience I have. Odd to me that all the people I know and all the places I've lived, it's always the same thing.
I think it's a very common thing to hear, but often we look at the past through rose-colored glasses.
When was the last time you called an appliance repair man?
Literally a couple times a year. And if you think that's bullshit, I'm happy to let you pick up the bills on them. Conversely, about 5 years ago I replaced a dishwasher for my grandmother. I'd never known anything other than that old dishwasher at her house, and I asked her when they bought it. Her being the type who kept records of everything, she went to her filing cabinet to check. It was over 40 years old. I used to have to take her to visit her friends, most of whom I've also known most of my life. I couldn't help but notice their appliances were really old. When I asked if they ever had problems they would tell me that some of them had, once, a long time ago but still years after purchase, and then when it was fixed they haven't had any more problems. Oh, and my grandma's washer and dryer are almost as old as I am. There's a belt in the dryer that's been replaced, that's all I know of. However, when my grandfather was around, he may well have made repairs I don't know about.
If you're calling appliance repairmen a couple times a year, I think it's possible that you're an outlier. Outside of the dryer that I've been into multiple times in the 8 1/2 years I've lived in this house, the only other issue that I've had is the oven--and that FAR predated moving into this house and it was very, very old. And that's in a house where we have 5 refigerators, some of which were also moved here from previous houses.
As it relates to cars, have we not seen a tremendous improvement in automobile reliability over the last several decades? When was the last time that you had to do a "tune up" like we did 30 years ago?
I don't know about "have to." I still do them, and I routinely maintain the crap out of my own vehicles, so I can't really say what would happen if I didn't check as much as I check, and stay on top of changing the fluids and whatever other little routine maintenances I can think to do. What I can tell you is that the last car I had was a good car. Truly. I ran it for a long time. Eventually, I started having to replace every little thing on it until virtually nothing of the original engine remained. My grandpa's old Ford truck from the 50's on the other hand? My uncle still has it, and that thing is running with, as far as I know, nobody really doing much to it. Belts have had to be replaced, of course.
That old Ford truck from the 50s also might be burning/leaking oil, probably gets horrible gas mileage, doesn't comply with any modern exhaust regulations, the engine is probably unnecessarily heavy and underpowered compared to its displacement...
Back in those days, stuff didn't just "last forever" and the stuff that did required constant maintenance to be able to last forever.
This seems valid. Anecdotally, men used to know more about how to take care of their stuff, and they did so.
Yeah, and I'd argue that one of the reasons that men knew how to do that stuff was partly because they had to do that stuff regularly. It was worth it to learn how to do those things yourself because paying someone else do it as often as was necessary got pretty expensive...
And the engineers are dealing with a lot of additional constraints. Now you won't buy a washer/dryer that doesn't have 17 distinct cycle modes for whatever you want, when your mom was dealing with a washer/dryer that had "on or off". Now we're dealing with cars that have extensive computer controls so they make 300+ hp while actually making more than 8 mpg, so things have gotten increasingly more complex. And yet we STILL see improvements in reliability.
My current car has done pretty well, so anecdotally, I'd agree on that front. I've kept it up, but it hasn't fallen apart like my last one. Although, I'm pretty sure the clutch is going to go out any day now, but I don't count that, because that's gonna happen to every car sooner or later.
When I was in my teens, the idea of keeping a car past 100K miles was almost lunacy. You just knew massive things would be going wrong with it by then. I don't really think we see this with modern vehicles.
There's an issue in our modern world where people are buying disposable trash from the lowest cost country manufacturer because they can just look at the internet and buy based purely on cost. That's where "planned obsolescence" makes sense--you don't care if what you sell is trash because you just want the sale. But that situation diminishes the farther you go up the price ladder, to the point where buying appliances or vehicles, people actually care a little bit about quality/reliability.
Our washer, dryer, refrigerator, microwave, and dishwashers aren't cheap. They're actually quite high-end. Again, I'm happy to forward you my repair bills and the new purchases I've had to make when they crapped out to the point it wasn't worth another repair to me. The service industry for appliance repair is thriving in my city, if you want to argue that, ok. It should be drying up and becoming a thing of the past if you're correct. BUT, I grant you, everything I say is anecdotal, and I have no engineering expertise. But you can hardly blame me for having the opinion I have, if you'd dropped as much $ on appliance repairs as I have. We haven't even gotten into computers and phones.
Not discounting your experience, but I can't say that I've heard it echoed much from friends here locally.
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All our appliances are 5.5 years old.
We've had to replace the ice maker in the fridge and the motherboard in the stovetop.
Washing machine sounds like a trainwreck to I'll be making that repair call soon.
This was not cheap shit. Not top end, but not cheap. All top-of-the-line Samsung stuff (their best).
If the fridge goes, I'm going Sub Zero. F it. I'll never need another fridge in my lifetime.
(https://i.imgur.com/5Cqh0nN.png)
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This may be an unpopular opinion--and maybe even a wrong one...
But I think sometimes those ultra-high-priced brands are actually LESS reliable than cheaper ones... I know very few people with Sub Zero, or Wolf, or Viking, but it seems (anecdotally of course) I certainly hear a lot of them regularly talking about having them fixed.
It wouldn't surprise me if it's nothing more than a matter of manufacturing volume... It's a lot easier to find and fix issues in your production process, or in reliability, etc when you're making millions of something a year than when you're manufacturing maybe a few tens of thousands.
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There could also be another issue at play.
All our stuff was made during Covid.
We put in a new AC/Air Handling system, and we just had to replace it. Same thing with the garage door opener.
Coincidences?
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That's an entirely plausible explanation for things being manufactured that perhaps didn't meet their usual quality standards, Badge.
Especially as it's not just an assembly thing; when you think of all the subcomponents from outside vendors that may have had supply chain issues, maybe were substituting components they couldn't find with different vendors, etc...
That said you say 5.5 years ago, which would have been pre-COVID.
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4.5 years ago. I made a mistake. All of our stuff was bought between June and August of 2020, and it took a long time to get.
We got by with a grill, toaster oven and the fridge that came with the house (still have it in the garage).
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Got it. Then yeah, I think COVID very well may have played a role in that.
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Sub-Zero acquired Wolf some years ago. It was probably a good move commercially, but as I understand it, Wolf's reliability is not as good as Sub-Zero's. Wolf will cook/bake the crap out of some cooking/baking, but it does seem to have some little maintenance quirks.
Also DO NOT buy an Akso dishwasher. Just don't do it.
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Ah so?
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Sub-Zero acquired Wolf some years ago. It was probably a good move commercially, but as I understand it, Wolf's reliability is not as good as Sub-Zero's. Wolf will cook/bake the crap out of some cooking/baking, but it does seem to have some little maintenance quirks.
Also DO NOT buy an Akso dishwasher. Just don't do it.
They also own Cove dishwashers.
We had a Sub-Zero fridge and a Wolf range in the place we moved here from. Both were excellent. The Wolf was a BEAST.
DW was a Bosch, which was great.
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The low end stove/range and dishwasher we put into a rental 15 years ago are still going strong. The newish high-end ones in our own house are shit.
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What do you have in your house?
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Samsung washing machine and dryer, 6 or 7 years old, were already falling apart after a couple. Now the washing machine makes crazy noise when it goes into spin cycle. Already had it serviced once for something 2-3 years ago, don't even remember what.
1st and 2nd dishwashers were Samsung. Now we have a Bosch. It seems okay so far, it's 1.5 years old, but I doubt it will last as long as the GEs in the rentals.
2nd refrigerator is a Samsung. It's 3 years old and the top right door hinge is now broken, that was Tuesday's fun discovery.
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My tactic is, don't spend too much, they're all disposable
and they all do the same thing
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Cars are definitely lasting longer and with fewer problems than a couple of decades ago, my shitty Toyota notwithstanding.
But I'm not so sure the same is true of appliances. Anecdotally, it's definitely not true for me. My Sears washing machine and dryer I bought just out of college in 1994 lasted 20 years. I'm now on my 3rd set in the last 10.
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The low end stove/range and dishwasher we put into a rental 15 years ago are still going strong. The newish high-end ones in our own house are shit.
Yup I have a GE Profile Series Triton dishwasher bought/installed August 2000 the clothes washer I had bought at the same time lasted almost 21 yrs to the day. The Store was dumping their appliances and I got them practically at price. The repair guys(as have the sales people) I know have said the new models might last 5-8 yrs if you stay on top of the maintenance end and are lucky. Between corporate creeps and gov't policies and measures we're getting more for less while both those entities keep growing
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Cars are definitely lasting longer and with fewer problems than a couple of decades ago, my shitty Toyota notwithstanding.
Hey I've got a shitty 2010 Corolla I'm still bouncing around in and looking for another one and it's a lot harder now to find a decent one - for sale
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There could also be another issue at play.
All our stuff was made during Covid.
We put in a new AC/Air Handling system, and we just had to replace it. Same thing with the garage door opener.
Coincidences?
Correct this is why the far right corporate cocks are just as detestable as the far left wokesters
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Cars are definitely lasting longer and with fewer problems than a couple of decades ago, my shitty Toyota notwithstanding.
But I'm not so sure the same is true of appliances. Anecdotally, it's definitely not true for me. My Sears washing machine and dryer I bought just out of college in 1994 lasted 20 years. I'm now on my 3rd set in the last 10.
Sears/Kenmore was great stuff.
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I think Kenmore was made by Whirlpool.
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Yeah, and I was raised to think that constant start/stop and cranking the engine would wear things out faster than not doing so... Have to feel like it would be hell on the starter, and the engine.
But... I also know how the pace of engineering goes, and what was true when I was in my teens and early 20s are probably now "solved problems".
I've noticed when I've driven rentals with the feature that it doesn't do it until the engine is fully warmed up, as it's probably "cold starts" that are more wear-and-tear on the engine than starting when hot. And if you're stop/start enough that it might be draining the battery it'll stop doing it for a while.
I assume the engineering and reliability teams at these companies have data that says it's ok. And as someone who deals with high-precision electromechanical systems and has spent a good portion of my career supporting customers when things are failing, there's no "well it doesn't fail until 100K miles so it doesn't matter for warranty purposes"... Because everything that is more unreliable at >100K miles is also more unreliable at every mileage, and statistically they're going to have to deal with some of those failures within warranty. It's possible that they factor this in as a cost of doing business to hit CAFE standards and it's a reliability/cost trade-off, of course. But I'm more inclined to think that the designers think the failure rate is low enough to not be a concern.
I looked into it years ago. They don’t use the same starter as they do on regular engines, it’s much beefier and supposed to be designed to handle the cycles. The engine has special passages for the oil so it runs down for an extended period of time when the engine stops. I’m sure there’s a bunch of other things too, but these are the few I’ve heard of.
whether or not it lasts in the real world, who knows.
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If you're calling appliance repairmen a couple times a year, I think it's possible that you're an outlier. Outside of the dryer that I've been into multiple times in the 8 1/2 years I've lived in this house, the only other issue that I've had is the oven--and that FAR predated moving into this house and it was very, very old. And that's in a house where we have 5 refigerators, some of which were also moved here from previous houses.
Unfortunately he's probably not - a guy who grew up down the street and good buds with my older brothers and I is retired from GE Appliance after 38 yrs. Before Corporate decided to sell off everything except the cash cow defense industry businesses. He's 73 and would echo those sentiments as would my neighbor who spent a bunch on his samsung fridge,dishwasher and oven. Neighbor is livid and has had repairmen out 4X in about 3.5 yrs.That's just bullshit and the goverment should implement some lemon laws for this crap.My 24 yr old GE DW is still working but going to get another DW after Holiday sale hope it makes it 5-6 yrs
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I think Kenmore was made by Whirlpool.
Mostly back in the day sometimes GE or others
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I think Kenmore was made by Whirlpool.
GE made the Kenmore stuff I had.
I had a "Sears Best" TV that was made by Sanyo.
Sears Best paint was the best paint I've ever used.
I miss Sears.
And they stood behind their stuff. Returns/refunds/replacements - no questions asked.
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Appliances these days are absolutely junk compared to the ones from the 70’s thru the 90’s. My parents and grandparents had the same washers and dryers for 20+ years. Same refrigerator, same stove. For decades. Everybody I knew had the same appliances the whole time we were growing up. My friends dad passed away awhile back, when I went to his house ( hadn’t been there in 10-15 years) they had the same refrigerator that had been there since the 70’s.
Myself, I only wish I could get 10+ years out of any washer or dryer. I did have a speed queen that lasted about 10 years, that I really loved and just replaced. I still have it, but I need to see if it’s worth fixing and then put it at my shop to wash work clothes etc.
We’ve been married for 23 years, and we’ve been through at least 3-4 refrigerators, 3-4 washers, 3-4 dryers.
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Part of the problem with appliances is that they’re pushing energy efficiency as the end all be all, to the sacrifice of longevity. You can’t use the same refrigerant, and the new stuff runs at much higher pressures. Thus, it leaks at an earlier age because it’s higher pressure. Compressors are designed for energy efficiency, which may mean they spin faster.
What I’d really like to see is a total energy efficiency rating that takes into account the expected lifespan based on testing and real world data.
And the whole “ washing machines are just so much more complex “ is just bullshit. They all do the same thing no matter how many options they come with. They wash clothes with water and spin them dry. The average person only uses or needs 3-4 cycles at the most.
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I has a small chest freezer in my basement that's as old as I am
bought it for $25 back in 1990
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Most appliances don’t have compressors
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I guess I’ve been lucky. So far.
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But I'm not so sure the same is true of appliances. Anecdotally, it's definitely not true for me. My Sears washing machine and dryer I bought just out of college in 1994 lasted 20 years. I'm now on my 3rd set in the last 10.
Okay utee, you're an engineer and know a little something about manufacturing consumer electronics, right?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on *why* appliances are getting worse, if you believe that to be the case. And if possible, if you have a belief that the lower-cost stuff is actually *more* reliable than the higher-end stuff, what forces are driving that.
My own thought is that if reliability is being sacrificed, it's most likely due to a "race to the bottom" on cost, driven by market competition. Much as the airline industry long ago gave up on "service" or "customer experience" because the average consumer compares fares on online booking sites and will usually pick the lowest fare possible and isn't willing to pay for a better experience.
But that's just my supposition.
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Most appliances don’t have compressors
Refrigerators and air conditioners do.
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Okay utee, you're an engineer and know a little something about manufacturing consumer electronics, right?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on *why* appliances are getting worse, if you believe that to be the case. And if possible, if you have a belief that the lower-cost stuff is actually *more* reliable than the higher-end stuff, what forces are driving that.
My own thought is that if reliability is being sacrificed, it's most likely due to a "race to the bottom" on cost, driven by market competition. Much as the airline industry long ago gave up on "service" or "customer experience" because the average consumer compares fares on online booking sites and will usually pick the lowest fare possible and isn't willing to pay for a better experience.
But that's just my supposition.
I know you asked Marcus, but here’s my 2c.
As I recall, most appliances ( washers, dryers, refrigerators, stoves, etc) cost about the same 30-40 years ago as to what they cost now. In other words, the washing machine you paid $600 for in 1995 still costs roughly $600. So they were much more expensive 30 years ago, but also much better built. As with everything else, the complexity has gone up. What used to be simple electronics were replaced by complex electronics with microprocessors, and more features to enhance energy efficiency and safety ( locking lids for WM etc).
things that were made out of expensive metal, started being made out of inexpensive plastic. Manufacturers started to consolidate, Whirlpool bought out Maytag, what was once a robust industry of 10 ish manufacturers is now maybe 3-4. They also started building them overseas, and in Mexico. I think also the demise of the small town appliance stores and the shift to the big box stores accelerated the shift in quality. Cheaper suddenly became the end all be all, to the sacrifice of quality.
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Okay utee, you're an engineer and know a little something about manufacturing consumer electronics, right?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on *why* appliances are getting worse, if you believe that to be the case. And if possible, if you have a belief that the lower-cost stuff is actually *more* reliable than the higher-end stuff, what forces are driving that.
My own thought is that if reliability is being sacrificed, it's most likely due to a "race to the bottom" on cost, driven by market competition. Much as the airline industry long ago gave up on "service" or "customer experience" because the average consumer compares fares on online booking sites and will usually pick the lowest fare possible and isn't willing to pay for a better experience.
But that's just my supposition.
Yeah I don't know that my observations are universal, I'd obviously need to look at more industry-wide data to get the bigger picture, but the failures seem to be so common and so ubiquitous, it's hard for me to imagine it's not happening to everyone, everywhere.
Race to the bottom is probably part of it. I have no doubt that manufacturers COULD produce a more reliable product, but can they afford to?
Safety and energy efficiency regulations might also have something to do with it. Those types of things always add cost to the product. So if you're spending money to satisfy those regs, you've got to cut the cost from somewhere else. Reliability might take a hit. It's also possible that energy efficient products are somehow by their nature less reliable, there could be some inverse relationship there, but I'm not sure what it would be.
And I'm not sure why low-end appliances would be more reliable, other than potentially having less complexity. It's why I always cringe when my i s c & a aggie wife wants to buy the "luxury" version of a product, more bells and whistles. To me that just seems like more shit to break. The sunroof on my pickup stopped working after a couple of years, the sunroof I didn't want and didn't need but it came standard on the high end Platinum trim package of the truck that she picked out for us... :)
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Refrigerators and air conditioners do.
Yup, any normal heat pump will, but not washer dryer dish washer stove vacuum cleanerTV radio …
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Our old dryer stopped drying and I was told it needed a $430 computer. My wife wanted new gear anyway stacked as our laundry room is small. It was ten years old or so. Complexity.
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@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) Thanks. So I think there are a couple of common themes:
- Appliances as a matter of inflation-adjusted prices (and probably also on a common "hours of work needed to purchase" as incomes have increased) have become significantly cheaper to acquire.
- Energy efficiency is much improved, but that may come at a cost, potentially significant. Especially since some of the efficiency gains are not exactly "consumer" driven where the consumer is willingly choosing the more efficient model, but that they may be driven by the need to meet government/industry efficiency standards.
- There is a race to the bottom on cost/price.
What I find odd is that there are so many people here lamenting "they just don't make 'em like they used to"... But I think with what we've learned in engineering disciplines over the last 50 years, there should be no engineering reason that they can't make 'em like they used to--or better.
Ultimately I see this as a consumer problem. If consumers truly valued higher quality/reliability, you'd think this would be reflected by manufacturers offering units [perhaps more expensive] with longer warranties and trying to build a brand based upon that reliability.
Think Hyundai back when they were still a niche brand in the US. They were offering 10 year / 100K mile warranties when nobody else was offering over 60K or so. Now, they also weren't charging a premium price, so it's possible they were bleeding money for a while doing it, and maybe building the US brand was being subsidized by profits in other markets... Or it's possible that they knew their designs were good enough to make money even with those warranty offerings.
So to me, this might be an example of the old economic concept of revealed preference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference). Consumers say they want higher-reliability appliances. They complain about the appliances we have. But when it comes to buying, other things are more important to them.
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@Gigem (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1706) @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) Thanks. So I think there are a couple of common themes:
- Appliances as a matter of inflation-adjusted prices (and probably also on a common "hours of work needed to purchase" as incomes have increased) have become significantly cheaper to acquire.
- Energy efficiency is much improved, but that may come at a cost, potentially significant. Especially since some of the efficiency gains are not exactly "consumer" driven where the consumer is willingly choosing the more efficient model, but that they may be driven by the need to meet government/industry efficiency standards.
- There is a race to the bottom on cost/price.
What I find odd is that there are so many people here lamenting "they just don't make 'em like they used to"... But I think with what we've learned in engineering disciplines over the last 50 years, there should be no engineering reason that they can't make 'em like they used to--or better.
Ultimately I see this as a consumer problem. If consumers truly valued higher quality/reliability, you'd think this would be reflected by manufacturers offering units [perhaps more expensive] with longer warranties and trying to build a brand based upon that reliability.
Think Hyundai back when they were still a niche brand in the US. They were offering 10 year / 100K mile warranties when nobody else was offering over 60K or so. Now, they also weren't charging a premium price, so it's possible they were bleeding money for a while doing it, and maybe building the US brand was being subsidized by profits in other markets... Or it's possible that they knew their designs were good enough to make money even with those warranty offerings.
So to me, this might be an example of the old economic concept of revealed preference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference). Consumers say they want higher-reliability appliances. They complain about the appliances we have. But when it comes to buying, other things are more important to them.
For me, they're all equally shit. Doesn't matter the brand. Samsung, I'm told by multiple people, is shit. Whirlpool is OK, but 5-7 years they're toast. Maytag is Whirlpool. Kenmore is and always was made by about 3-4 different manufacturers. The speed queen washing machine I had lasted 10 years, and it needs fixed now. I liked it a lot because it was simple, it used a lot of water, and the clothes were clean.
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Think Hyundai back when they were still a niche brand in the US. They were offering 10 year / 100K mile warranties when nobody else was offering over 60K or so.
They had all sorts of problems and then telling customers distortions like ICE-T for CarShield does. Have to be a contract attorney to pry something out of them
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The speed queen washing machine I had lasted 10 years, and it needs fixed now. I liked it a lot because it was simple, it used a lot of water, and the clothes were clean.
The GE Appliance repair man I know had a Speed Queen(actually his mom's washing machine that stopped short of 29 yrs. That was in early-mid '90s. So ya they made them well to last until the 15-20 yrs
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We’ve been married for 23 years, and we’ve been through at least 3-4 refrigerators, 3-4 washers, 3-4 dryers.
Corporate's need to waterboarded
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For me, they're all equally shit. Doesn't matter the brand. Samsung, I'm told by multiple people, is shit. Whirlpool is OK, but 5-7 years they're toast. Maytag is Whirlpool. Kenmore is and always was made by about 3-4 different manufacturers. The speed queen washing machine I had lasted 10 years, and it needs fixed now. I liked it a lot because it was simple, it used a lot of water, and the clothes were clean.
Question: how much would you value--i.e. how much extra would you be willing to pay--if a vendor offered you a 10 year warranty on an appliance?
Warranty offerings are a pretty simple economic calculation... Whether the seller can offer an extended warranty because they know they can shoulder the extra repair costs, or if they can offer an extended warranty because they built the product to a higher quality standard, it's just a cost. If a consumer is willing to pay more, there's no reason they can't do it.
My argument is that consumers are NOT valuing it, and that's why the appliance makers are perhaps prioritizing other things (cost/features/etc) than reliability.
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As an aside. I have a Peloton Bike+. I got it when they were on sale for less than this, but the replacement price if I were to buy one new is $2495. I almost NEVER pay anything for extended warranties. However, at the end of my first year when the standard warranty was expiring. I took the option for $249 to extend the warranty out three more, to a total of four years.
Why? Because I *don't* trust their quality/reliability, and because I want to protect the value of my investment from high-dollar replacement. They're a bespoke fitness company, not an experienced manufacturing company. I bought them for what the product DOES, not because I think it's the best-designed or best-built product on the market and because I trust their reliability. But I value the product so highly that I know I'd buy a replacement (or spend whatever I needed to fix it) because of what it's done in my life, so I know the cost of failure would be QUITE expensive.
So clearly I'd be willing to pay 10% extra (albeit it's different emotionally when you're a year removed from the original purchase, and when you've spent a year falling in love with the product) for a 4-year warranty vs a 1-year warranty.
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I remember when it used to take an hour to do a deep clean cycle on the dishwasher. Now it takes 2:30.
Efficiency and all that.
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On the basic GE I have little over 3 yrs old,you can hit pause for up to 24 hrs. Followed the techs advice start a normal cycle up let it splash around 3-4-5 minutes to distribute the detergent then hit pause . Depending on what I'm washing I'll soak for up to 2 hrs,then hit pause button again. Don't let the lid open because after 15 minutes it will drain. Wizzenheimers figure the washer was unattended and a baby could fall in - I'm guessing
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Mercedes’ Solar Paint Could Make Plugging In EVs a Thing of the Past (https://www.motortrend.com/news/mercedes-benz-solar-paint-tech-demo/)
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that would be a breakthrough and a game changer
might save the planet
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- A typical EV requires about 4,000 to 5,000 kWh of electricity per year.
- According to the most recent EnergySage Intel Report (https://www.energysage.com/data/?#intel-18), 390 to 400-watt panels are the most frequently quoted solar panels on EnergySage. We’ll use 400 W panels for this example.
- Production ratios in the U.S. (https://infogram.com/solar-production-ratio-by-state-1hnq410vnnvkk23?live) are usually between 1.1 and 1.6 depending on the region; solar panels usually produce more electricity in sunnier climates than they would in places like the Northeast.
Number of panels = 4,000-5,000 kWh / 1.1 or 1.6 / 400 W
Based on this, charging an electric vehicle typically will require 7 to 12 solar panels out of however many you install on your home overall.
A solar panel of this size would be about 5.4 feet long and 3 feet wide. You can figure the surface area of a car could support about four of these on every surface, the vertical surfaces could support maybe three. So, you might have about 4-5 solar panels on a car surface overall, but you need 7-12. This presumes your "paint" is as efficient as a purpose designed PV panel. And this 400 watt figure is maximum output not allowing for clouds, nights, parking garages, etc. Maybe my math is wrong somewhere.
I think a PV "paint" could be a range extender but probably not a primary charger.
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that would be a breakthrough and a game changer
might save the planet
$500,000 per car?
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The other issue is that this fancy paint wouldn't do much to extend range while driving. You need about 30 kWhrs per hundred miles and it would produce maybe 1-2 of those while being driven, in sunlight. Then you'd need to park it, a while, to recharge it.
I suspect it's some PR silliness that won't ever be practicable.
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I think a PV "paint" could be a range extender but probably not a primary charger.
And that's sort of what the Mercedes article stated. In very sunny climates like LA, it might get you enough charge to be primary depending on your driving habits, but in most of the world it would just be a range extender.
The thing to remember is that while it can't give you enough range, quickly enough, to road trip on, it can charge while you're NOT driving.
I.e. let's say you get up and do your morning commute. Let's say you drive 12 miles in ~30 minutes. While you're driving, it obviously can't replace 12 miles of range in 30 minutes, especially not during morning hours when the sun isn't in an optimal charging location. But then you park it in full sunlight in your parking lot at work, and suddenly you now have 8+ hours for it to replace that 12 miles of range (and maybe then some). And then you drive it home at the end of the work day and burn 12 more miles of range. Is it that hard to envision a world where you've gained 18 miles of range while you've burned 24? If you're typically at a ~6 mile daily deficit, you can probably go a month or more without actively "charging" anywhere.
And note that the cost of that charging is... Free. Or, it's to say that you'll probably pay extra for the solar charging feature, so it'll depend on the payback period of "free" charging vs home or commercial charging. If you're only charging once a month, and you can do it on L2 or slower--i.e. cheaper than Superchargers--it could pay itself off quite quickly of the production cost of the feature is reasonable.
To me, this could be the killer app for people who live in apartments or don't have garages and have to rely on on-street parking. You've pointed out that the economics of an EV are VERY different depending on whether you can charge at home or not. The economics are also very different if you have a solar option to charge for free, even if it is only a range extender.
It remains to be seen if the economics work or if this is just a PR puff piece... It could be either. But IMHO, in theory even if it's "only" a range extender, it could be extremely useful if the economics work.
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GM surges to become America's number 2 EV seller in 2024 (https://electrek.co/2025/01/03/gm-surges-become-americas-number-2-ev-seller-2024/?fbclid=IwY2xjawHlWF5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHWUoCakJZc-6vHmY4uFHtdLSaNtGZjO4a3EgwUbK4Wil0rZUzluhRt-cJg_aem_4oePYHoYIOD8YJbicM1fhQ)
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and only wrote off a huge loss
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In 1910, Thomas Edison posed proudly with a Bailey electric car, a remarkable vehicle that showcased his cutting-edge battery technology. The Bailey was powered by Edison’s state-of-the-art battery, which was capable of reaching an impressive 100 miles on a single charge. This car was part of Edison's ongoing efforts to revolutionize transportation, and it reflected his vision of a future where electric power could replace gasoline engines, particularly in the automotive industry.
The Bailey electric car wasn’t just a concept; it was put to the test in a highly publicized way. In September of 1910, it competed in a 1,000-mile endurance run against combustion engine vehicles, a challenge that aimed to prove the viability of electric cars. The event highlighted both the technological advances of Edison's battery and the growing interest in electric vehicles, even as gasoline-powered cars dominated the market at the time.
Though the Bailey car did not ultimately change the course of automotive history, it remains a symbol of Edison's far-reaching vision and innovative spirit. The car's participation in the endurance run demonstrated the potential of electric vehicles, laying the groundwork for future advancements in clean energy and sustainable transportation. Today, this moment in history is a reminder of how early inventors like Edison sought to push the boundaries of technology and create a more efficient, eco-friendly future.
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(https://i.imgur.com/IvNQluM.jpeg)
Not really "new news" though ...
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Weird history.
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So, where is all this EV stuff headed?
In Norway, it's a major deal. You don't have to pay tolls with any EV there, which is major. I think often you don't pay for parking either. In Europe, it's "coming" albeit slower than many would like. Sales are increasing but slower than forecast. The US is the same, much slower than many hoped. The reasons are pretty obvious.
Will California et al. stick to the 2025 edict? They might especially if PHEVs are allowed to count. I remain interested in PHEVs despite the fact they are doubly complex. I wouldn't buy one, yet. How much will all this impact global oil consumption by X date? I don't know, for one things, more cars are being sold, so oil consumption will head up anyway barring economic meltdown until maybe 2032 or beyond. What about CO2 generation? Nope, it's not going to have a major impact on that for ... a while, MAYBE by 2050 it might be measurable.
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So, where is all this EV stuff headed?
Ultimately, I see a lot of parallels to my own industry (data storage). There are a lot of technical advantages of a fully electric powertrain relative to internal combustion. Instant torque being one of them, for a different (improved?) driving experience. No tailpipe emissions causing local air pollution in densely-populated areas. Less mechanical complexity without needing a very complicated transmission to make it smooth and improve fuel efficiency like in an ICEV. More design freedom in the way that you can move mass (batteries) around that can lower the vehicle CoG and actually make it handle better. Reduced maintenance costs. Regenerative braking which is a range extender but also saves wear and tear on brakes. If you can charge at home, you may go months and months between "fueling" outside your own home--something that I think is an unheralded benefit.
The problem(s) at this point are largely economic--battery capacity and cost is such that to have robust range, the only people who can realistically drive BEVs are people who are at the "luxury" end of the automotive spectrum.
This is the same thing I saw in the storage industry. There are a lot of technical advantages for SSDs in the compute space--i.e. in your desktop, laptop, hosting your operating system and applications. Performance, power consumption, resistance to mechanical damage, and variety of form factor are a handful of those. But early in the transition, the cost of SSDs were simply too high. The only people who really could use them were gamers (who will spend crazy money for performance), and power users who typically use their PC to drive their business. People who were compiling code, doing video editing, or anything else where the storage was the bottleneck of their PC and slowed down their productivity absolutely were the first to make the switch.
What eventually happened in the storage industry is that the cost came down enough that for "enough" capacity, SSDs could be on par with HDD or close enough that the benefits outweighed the cost savings. Ultimately an HDD is going to have a "floor cost", because there are certain aspects of the BOM that are simply non-negotiable. The industry kept pushing up capacity at that "floor cost" beyond what most people needed, while the SSD industry had a MUCH lower "floor cost" so they could reduce price by sacrificing capacity. If the lowest capacity HDD available at floor cost is 1TB, and the SSD industry can make a 256GB SSD for a lower cost than a 1TB HDD, the only people who still buy that HDD are those with "capacity anxiety"--but in our increasingly cloud-driven world where a lot of people don't need more than 100-150GB of local storage, people learned that they didn't actually need all that capacity. And now the industry has progressed to the point where 1TB SSDs are almost at parity with 1TB HDDs, and the HDD is basically not used anywhere for primary storage in the PC space.
I think eventually we'll see that as the direction the BEV industry goes. Right now it's expensive and premium, and so people are looking for reasons NOT to buy one because they can't realistically afford it anyway. But pricing are dropping. It won't be too long before a 300 mi range BEV is at or better price parity with an ICEV. Once we hit that point, people will start asking why they want a smelly, loud, slow ICEV that they have to drive to the gas station once every week or two to fill up?
I also think that we'll start seeing more variety in the market. If you have a multi-family vehicle, and you can save a HUGE chunk of money to have a small 100 mi range "commuter car" just for going to work and back and various errands, but then you have your 300+ mi range car for when you need it, a new market might appear for those small reduced-range vehicles. Just as eventually we invented a market for Chromebooks, stripped-down PCs that didn't need much storage at all but were "good enough" for daily use when what most people need is essentially a thin client. My wife and I could easily get by with one 100 mi range vehicle and one "high range" vehicle. The number of times per month that we need >100 mi range in a day can probably be counted on one hand, and it's likely not going to require all the fingers. Especially if there are robust easily accessible public charging option--if we wanted to drive to LA for some reason (~60 mi) and could add back 30-40 mi of range while parked and doing whatever we're doing, a 100 mi range vehicle would easily cover the round trip.
Does that mean ICEV will go away entirely? No, I don't think so. The truth is that there are some workloads where high uptime and low refueling time make it difficult to impossible for BEV to compete, and range/weight needs would make batteries cost prohibitive. (Note: we see the same in the SSD/HDD industry; SSDs dominate personal compute but HDDs absolutely dominate data center storage, a quickly growing demand driver.)
But ultimately it's going to come down to battery prices. They're coming down, but they're not there yet.
I do think that for most consumers, by the time we get to 2035 a BEV won't just make technological sense, it'll make economic sense.
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That sounds very plausible, to me, I'm not sure about the timing, and other very different options might become viable in the interim, at least in some applications (hydrogen fuel cells). At this point, I personally chose a mild hybrid, and I think that was a solid choice for us.
I HOPE by 2035 that most folks see EVs as the better option overall. I view that as a good outcome, if it is real.
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Decarbonization of transport is underway. Here are future fuel predictions. | Knowable Magazine (https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/technology/2024/decarbonization-of-transportation-predictions)
The IEA’s pathway (https://www.iea.org/reports/net-zero-by-2050) describes a massive, hard-to-enact shift across the entire world, including all kinds of transport. Their goal: to replace fossil fuels (which release long-captured carbon into the air, where it wreaks havoc on the climate) with something more sustainable, like green hydrogen (https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/technology/2023/green-hydrogen-latin-america) or biofuels (which either don’t produce greenhouse gases at all or recycle the ones that are already in the air).
Although some transportation sectors are still in flux, we can now get a pretty good glimpse of what will likely be powering the ships, planes, trains and automobiles of tomorrow. Here’s a peek into that future.
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This would be funny if it wasn't so funny.
(https://i.imgur.com/jzPVBvG.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/st9NW1y.png)
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If your EV has 300 miles of "range", it really only has 249, and if you routinely charge it only to 80%, it only has 192, unless the weather is cold and/or you are towing.
(https://i.imgur.com/HEaqp3I.png)
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I got this gigantic e-bike last week that's basically like an electric dirt bike. It's providing me with a lot of entertainment.
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did you also get the matching solar panel and windmill?
Pics, please
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Mercedes-Benz is rethinking braking systems for electric vehicles with its new "in-drive brake" concept. This design integrates the brakes directly into the drivetrain, eliminating traditional calipers and rotors. A circular brake pad connected to the motor's output shaft presses against a stationary water-cooled ring within an enclosed system.
Aimed to last the vehicle's lifetime without servicing, it reduces maintenance costs and captures brake dust—a significant urban pollutant—in a compartment that doesn't require emptying. By moving braking components away from the wheels, unsprung weight is lowered, improving handling and ride comfort. Currently undergoing testing, this innovation aligns with upcoming Euro 7 emissions standards and could set new benchmarks for EV braking technology.
(https://i.imgur.com/WC0ONh3.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Q1fuzv5.png)
Maybe, such projections are ... projections. China seems to be shifting rapidly and that accounts for a lot of this. Norway has shifted but doesn't amount to much.
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doesn't look like a skyrocket to me
and that many haven't been sold in 2025 yet
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The US market is over saturated with EVs currently which is why they are "on sale". China is different, and Europe is some different. A large segment of the US population views owning an EV as a political statement, pro or con.
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doesn't look like a skyrocket to me
and that many haven't been sold in 2025 yet
I doubt the final quarter of 2024 sales in the US are actualized, either. That's a lot of projection.
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The US market is over saturated with EVs currently which is why they are "on sale". China is different, and Europe is some different. A large segment of the US population views owning an EV as a political statement, pro or con.
perhaps Chevy sent a bunch over seas
or they just took a huge loss to dump excess inventory
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Also, you can't trust any sales numbers released by China. We look at the numbers they release in the computer industry and just laugh. Sometimes off by orders of magnitude.
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That is likely a good point, but I suspect China is pushing EVs pretty hard with subsidies thinking they can dominate the eventual market down the road.
And they probably will, I've read their EVs compare very favorably with any in the west.
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are they called, subsidies, in a communist country?
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CHINA::::
hey look, we have more EVs than any country in the world
also, we have the most coal burning power plants
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are they called, subsidies, in a communist country?
China is not really communist, I'd term them "crony capitalist". They have a lot of privately held companies.
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They really don't. Their private business is in name only, ultimately everything is state controlled. They do have "capitalists" that "own" companies and have become rich as a result, but the CCP can (and does) take that away any time they feel like it.
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That is basically crony capitalism, as I define it. The thing is the "state" doesn't make corporate decisions on a daily basis, so they allow the "market" to function within bounds, while deciding to emphasize/support/demand/... development in certain areas. They built that enormous HSR system in a short period of time because the "state" decided to do it cost be danged.
In "crony capitalism", a favored few run the companies mostly as they want and make billions so long as they kow tow to the state. It's similar, I think, to how Nazi Germany operated. The Nazis were not all that efficient and put a lot of resources into wasteful areas, like an aircraft carrier. I think the Chinese have a longer term view, they try and see future markets globally they can dominate, like EVs. Just as today every TV is built in Asia, I think, we might wake up in 2050 and find every EV is built in Asia.
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It's a lot more expensive to transport a car overseas, than it is a computer or a television. Even with 100% ocean-shipping.
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I'm sure it is. I had a chat a while back with a lady who arranges shipments of wine from Europe to the US, large shipments. It was a complicated deal because of weather issues. I recall one car shipment's ship sank a while back with Porsches and whatnot on it.
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Mercedes-Benz is rethinking braking systems for electric vehicles with its new "in-drive brake" concept. This design integrates the brakes directly into the drivetrain, eliminating traditional calipers and rotors. A circular brake pad connected to the motor's output shaft presses against a stationary water-cooled ring within an enclosed system.
Aimed to last the vehicle's lifetime without servicing, it reduces maintenance costs and captures brake dust—a significant urban pollutant—in a compartment that doesn't require emptying. By moving braking components away from the wheels, unsprung weight is lowered, improving handling and ride comfort. Currently undergoing testing, this innovation aligns with upcoming Euro 7 emissions standards and could set new benchmarks for EV braking technology.
(https://i.imgur.com/WC0ONh3.png)
This is actually a really cool and possibly tremendous innovation. Especially if it's designed to be and actually capable of lasting the lifetime of the vehicle.
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This is actually a really cool and possibly tremendous innovation. Especially if it's designed to be and actually capable of lasting the lifetime of the vehicle.
I thought so as well, it makes a lot of sense I think. Mounting is with independent axles might be a thing. Nearly every car today has IR suspension.
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I wonder how hard it'll be to get the heat out of it though, especially as it appears to be an enclosed unit design... The advantage of brakes at the wheel is that they're exposed to free air cooling, in an area where there might actually be SOME airflow.
And even then high performance cars often use ceramic brakes, and race cars are known to sometimes have their brakes damn near glowing due to the heat.
But I love the idea of reducing unsprung weight. That would make suspension tuning more accommodating for both ride quality and handling.
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A circular brake pad connected to the motor's output shaft presses against a stationary water-cooled ring within an enclosed system.
I infer it is water cooled per above and probably need a radiator somewhere. So, the complexity could overwhelm the advantages.
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A circular brake pad connected to the motor's output shaft presses against a stationary water-cooled ring within an enclosed system.
I infer it is water cooled per above and probably need a radiator somewhere. So, the complexity could overwhelm the advantages.
Ahh, I missed that the first time around.
It can probably use the same radiator as the rest of the vehicle. I'm assuming the "stationary water cooled ring" means that the water channels in the ring aren't exposed to the brake pad itself and thus the water won't pick up any brake dust.
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In 2024, 88.9% of new car sales in Norway were fully electric, bringing the country closer to its goal of exclusively adding electric vehicles (EVs) by 2025, according to the Norwegian Road Federation.
Tesla, Volkswagen, and Toyota were the top-selling EV brands, with Chinese electric vehicles now making up nearly 10% of new car sales in the country.
Norway's long-standing policy of incentivizing EVs with tax exemptions and penalizing petrol and diesel cars has been a key factor in the shift, despite some levies being reintroduced in 2023.
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Cars today often had radiators for the turbo of course, maybe they all do (the compressed air part). An EV wouldn't have a regular radiator anywhere except for the battery. They usually have a heat pump somewhere of course.
So, yeah, I'd guess they use the battery cooling system.
I have wondered idly with our hybrid how often the fiction brakes are engaged. It's not detectable on brake feel. I can hear the regen braking happening.
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Cars today often had radiators for the turbo of course, maybe they all do (the compressed air part). An EV wouldn't have a regular radiator anywhere except for the battery. They usually have a heat pump somewhere of course.
So, yeah, I'd guess they use the battery cooling system.
I have wondered idly with our hybrid how often the fiction brakes are engaged. It's not detectable on brake feel. I can hear the regen braking happening.
I googled "do electric vehicles have radiators?" before my last response... Turns out they typically do have radiators for various cooling tasks, including the battery thermal management.
BTW ICEV cars all of course have radiators whether turbo or not. I don't think most turbo cars have dedicated radiators just for the turbo, but some turbocharged performance cars do have intercoolers which cools the air before it enters the turbo.
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Yeah my F150 twin-turbo doesn't have an auxiliary radiator, the main radiator is designed to handle it all. It does use an intercooler. And it also has a transmission cooler that utilizes the radiator for circulating cooled transmission fluid, which is essential when towing heavy loads.
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I think most turbo cars today have intercoolers, specialized radiators for the compressed air. Our Tucson has one.
An intercooler is a device that helps to cool air as it passes through the engine of a car or truck. By cooling the air, the intercooler helps improve the engine’s performance and prevent overheating. There are two main types of intercoolers: air-to-air and air-to-water. Air-to-air intercoolers use air to cool the air passing through the engine, while air-to-water intercoolers use water to cool the air.
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I think of an intercooler as being a kind of radiator.
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(https://i.imgur.com/YDDfFYk.png)
"I've got to be honest, when Ford badged that a mustang, I thought they had lost their minds, but the more I see vids of people driving them the more I like them. It's like if mustang was an SUV," writes Mark Godston commenting on Ford Mustang Mach-E's success of outselling the gas Mustang in 2024.
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Blech
I have no problem with the vehicle itself, aside from my own personal dislike for all of those crossover-mini-SUV looking things. But it absolutely should not be badged as a Mustang.
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Eric Dickerson would hang his head in shame
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Blech
I have no problem with the vehicle itself, aside from my own personal dislike for all of those crossover-mini-SUV looking things. But it absolutely should not be badged as a Mustang.
Yep. When they first came out it took a minute to get used to the styling, but over time it's grown on me.
But it shouldn't be called a Mustang.
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Somebody in the building has one, so I see it at the charging station at times. (They apparently did learn how to hook it up.)
I think it looks, well, "OK", but the gas 'stang looks far better. They should have called it a Pinto.
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I know a few people who own them. All of them really like them. FWIW.
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Folks who are early to buying a thing nearly always really like them, whether they really do or not. Humans don't like admitting mistakes. Early adopters in particular I think are prone to misoverexaggerating the benefits of their thing (and dismissing the disadvantages as being trivial).
I remember when I was the first person in our town to own a gasoline powered vehicle, I was very proud of it, and spoke to any who had the old fashioned steam, or heaven forbit, electric vehicles of its superiority to their claptrap.
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I know a few people who own them. All of them really like them. FWIW.
well, they weren't cool enuff to own a real Mustang with a V8 so,...........
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well, they weren't cool enuff to own a real Mustang with a V8 so,...........
The Mach-E might be faster off the line than a Mustang with a V8, so...........
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So what?
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The 2024 Ford Mustang Mach-E can go from 0 to 60 miles per hour in 3.3
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I would like to own an EV. I think we could handle it in rural Iowa if either my wife or I had an ICE and the other an EV. I have to travel longer distances than her. I would like an EV, but I would be better off going from here to Des Moine and back in an ICE.
While I'd like us to have an EV, I am not so sure she would trust having one on her side of the garage. She is due for a new car. We will find out.
That said, I think EVs are better suited for urban commutes. That said, the F-150 Lightening would go great for short rural commutes in Iowa.
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The 2024 Ford Mustang Mach-E can go from 0 to 60 miles per hour in 3.3
My brother-in-law has the 2023 version. He reminds me each time he throws me from the front to the back seat simply by depressing a foot pedal.
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my Chevy V-8 is 2.9
I love that foot pedal
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The Mach-E might be faster off the line than a Mustang with a V8, so...........
I was at a party a few years back and there was a lady there that was some bigshot at Ford. She drove to the party in a Mach-E and was talking about what a great car it was. This was before it hit the market so this was a prototype that she was driving.
We all went out to check it out and it had some pretty cool features, but it was NOT a Mustang and I told her that. It looked more like a station wagon or small SUV but was NOT a Mustang. You will NEVER convince me to buy one of those insults to the real thing.
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If I were in the market for an EV crossover-mini-SUV thing then I suppose I'd give it a look. I can't imagine I'll ever be in that market, though.
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I mentioned before how a dual car family living in their own home could manage pretty well with one EV. There are some fairly inexpensive ones out now after the tax credit. This one looks normal, Hyundai has a similar variant.
2025 Chevrolet Equinox EV Review, Pricing, and Specs (https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/equinox-ev)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pk58IrG.jpeg)
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One thing to remember is that people just don't want sedans anymore, especially from domestic manufacturers. I don't think either Chevy or Ford sell any true "cars", it's all SUV's, cross-over SUV's, and trucks. Chevy has discontinued the Camaro (again), and they're probably never going to bring it back. I'm not sure about the Mustang's current or future, but rebranding as an EV may be the only way that "Mustangs" survive in the modern age. That being said, it probably also gave Ford a little bit of extra marketing to a lot younger crowd who is much more willing to accept a xSUV as a Mustang. We can keep splitting hairs, and come up with that any Mustang not built on a body-on-frame architecture isn't a real mustang either, and I think they've been uni-body since the 90's.
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Camaro's future is as an EV, if there is one. Hardly anyone is selling a sedan now, the Accord is a very nice one of course.
(https://i.imgur.com/COqOYh0.jpeg)
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I've been critical of all these SUVs and CUVs in the past for reasonable reasons I think. Now that we own one, I do "get it". My wife loves it more than I do. I find the thing to be "acceptable" but not exciting, which at my age is OK I think. It's easier to egress than the GTI which starts to be a thing and has higher forward seating/views. The space inside is good, rear storage is good, it is very quiet at speed.
And if you watch while you drive, you'll no doubt notice maybe half the other cars around you are CUVs.
The Mustang E looks low to the ground, to me, not really a CUV type, I think. The Camaro E is the same, four doors.
Next thing we know we'll have some CFB playoff instead of letting drunk bitter old sportswriters chosing the NC.
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Ford Mustang Mach-E Owner Says Infant Was Trapped When Doors Wouldn't Open (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a63362542/ford-mustang-mach-e-owner-says-infant-son-wound-up-trapped-when-doors-would-not-open/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwY2xjawHrak9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHYWYhb8iCYkf24JNqIgx95Hscydv6ueLC6V9a4GLeU7Hkj88DeNXNoMzZA_aem_rilzDVGhfdMPCAbR0gg91g)
Both AAA and Ford Roadside Assistance were reportedly unable to open the vehicle, with the owner saying he had to break a window to extract his child.
As Reddit user @r3d_ra1n described the incident on the site's r/MachE forum (https://www.reddit.com/r/MachE/comments/1hss7c6/mach_e_completely_disabled_with_child_trapped/), their wife parked the car on the street on January 3rd, with the car's propulsive battery showing a state of charge of 25%; she left the car, shut her door and walked around to the other side of the vehicle to grab her son, only to find the door wouldn't open The Mach-E could not be unlocked via the key fob or the Ford app. She reportedly contacted her partner, who came to help — but according to his account, neither he nor AAA nor Ford Roadside Assistance had better luck getting into the Mach-E through any means short of breaking open the glass.
The owner of the Mach-E also posted his account on Threads (https://www.threads.net/@malcolmgordon_vo/post/DEYmTUYSVGk), where it garnered a massive response from concerned citizens, fellow Mach-E owners and even Ford itself, with the company's North American product communications director, Mike Levine, reaching out (https://www.threads.net/@mrlevine/post/DEY6RDWpS6M).
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A variation of this happened to us with the hybrid. We went on a 9 day trip and when we returned, the car was dead, doornail dead. I called Hyundai service and a AAA truck showed up soon enough, he ended up jumping the car and said the battery read dead. The next day I took it to the dealer, this time it started up OK. Everything was fine.
Turns out the car shuts down after 4-5 days. You have to enter the car with the physical key and hit a well hidden button that activates the battery.
Nobody told me this trick, I never read the manual.
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a 4-door Camaro????
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One thing to remember is that people just don't want sedans anymore, especially from domestic manufacturers. I don't think either Chevy or Ford sell any true "cars", it's all SUV's, cross-over SUV's, and trucks. Chevy has discontinued the Camaro (again), and they're probably never going to bring it back. I'm not sure about the Mustang's current or future, but rebranding as an EV may be the only way that "Mustangs" survive in the modern age. That being said, it probably also gave Ford a little bit of extra marketing to a lot younger crowd who is much more willing to accept a xSUV as a Mustang. We can keep splitting hairs, and come up with that any Mustang not built on a body-on-frame architecture isn't a real mustang either, and I think they've been uni-body since the 90's.
MOPAR is discontinuing the Challenger and Charger as well. One or the other might come back as an EV.
So I think there's some value to Ford, in having the ONLY gas-powered "muscle car" available in the marketplace.
The Corvette isn't really a direct competitor and has never been considered a "muscle car." Modern Corvette owners might even attempt to tell you it's a "Supercar"-- and they might have a case for that.
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I hope the gas Mustang sticks around for a while. I like it. I guess Nissan has a sort of variant of it some might crossshop.
2025 Nissan Z: Review, Pricing, and Specs (https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/z)
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Camaro's future is as an EV, if there is one. Hardly anyone is selling a sedan now, the Accord is a very nice one of course.
(https://i.imgur.com/COqOYh0.jpeg)
I don't think that's a real car, just an illustration of a concept.
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I hope the gas Mustang sticks around for a while. I like it. I guess Nissan has a sort of variant of it some might crossshop.
2025 Nissan Z: Review, Pricing, and Specs (https://www.caranddriver.com/nissan/z)
Yeah, the Japanese manufacturers still have some popular gas-powered sportscars. There's the Z, and of course the Toyota Supra:
(https://i.imgur.com/wHmRg7k.png)
And then there's the Toyota GR86, which my son really likes:
(https://i.imgur.com/d05pujP.jpeg)
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It is an artistic concept drawing based on a bit of info from GM.
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Oh, and to myself: "This is the EV thread. The sporty car thread is over there -------->"
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Apparently Nissan and Honda are merging. So may not see any of the Nonda sporty cars in the future.
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2024 Hyundai Kona Electric First Test Review: Bigger, But Better? (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-hyundai-kona-electric-first-test-review/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawHrmqZleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHZToNiC0KQVOXr8RXq65qhGgn2Ev6XCteRXW_d5Ty-sHYYKxfXTCvrjF_w_aem_y41JecNxTozRQScanPyzZw)
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Oftentimes, when you've made a bad decision, the worst thing you can do is double down. The best approach can be cutting your losses and moving forward as well as possible. It's a hard lesson, but extremely valuable, and General Motors (GM -1.88%) is currently in the process of learning it after investing $10 billion in its Cruise autonomous vehicle program.
The Detroit automaker had once vowed not to step off the accelerator of autonomous driving development -- until December, when it announced a near complete reversal of its strategy. Is General Motors' exiting its robotaxi dreams a mistake, or was the venture the mistake?
Time is money
Following in the path of crosstown rival Ford Motor Company, which threw in the towel on its autonomous driving unit Argo years ago, GM announced its Cruise subsidiary is ending its effort to develop robotaxis. General Motors will now combine Cruise and its own teams to further push its efforts in advance autonomous and assisted driving, which would provide more immediate benefits for customers and its finances.
"Given the considerable time and expense required to scale a robotaxi business in an increasingly competitive market, combining forces would be more efficient and therefore consistent with our capital allocation priorities," General Motors CEO Mary Barra said in a call with analysts.
Cruise was once lauded for its potential to become a large part of General Motors. In 2021, the company estimated it would generate revenue of $50 billion by the end of the decade, and only last year it was targeting $1 billion in revenue by 2025. General Motors had even planned for Cruise to pair up with Honda Motor Co. to launch a driverless ride-hailing service in Japan in 2026.
But its robotaxi plans had become a headache. In October 2023, a Cruise robotaxi struck a pedestrian in San Francisco, leading to California stripping Cruise of the permits it needed to operate the robotaxi business. Cruise idled its entire fleet, Kyle Vogt resigned as CEO, and nine other executives were fired. That was perhaps the beginning of the end of GM's robotaxi plans.
It's a change in strategy that General Motors believes will save more than $1 billion annually after restructuring Cruise, which is roughly half of its annual spend on the subsidiary. Those savings become more important when you consider that General Motors, among many in the industry, is losing serious money on developing electric vehicles (EVs), and with the automaker currently restructuring its troubled China business at the cost of $5 billion.
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https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/10/autos-car-giants-struggle-to-find-answers-in-bid-to-avoid-mega-fines.html
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@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870)
https://electrek.co/2025/01/13/tesla-cybertruck-gets-10000-solar-panel-wrap-that-gives-you-more-range/
Claimed up to 1.5kW, which means at best the equivalent of 120V @ 12.5A, a little less than most single residential breaker circuits can supply for rooms not expected to handle major appliances.
So maybe 2+ miles of range per hour of sunlight at peak mid afternoon, and less the test of the day.
At $10K, that's too pricey to make economic sense as a range extender. Even at inflated CA electricity prices, I think you'd need around 30,000 kWh to break even. That's almost 4 years if you had 24/7 peak sunlight, which obviously doesn't exist. And likely close to double that given electricity prices elsewhere in the country.
But I think it's a cool concept if they can bring prices down and improve efficiency over time.
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lots O EVs in the bay area, not as many as I expected
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EV maker Nikola files for bankruptcy protection (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/ev-maker-nikola-files-for-bankruptcy-protection/ar-AA1zmilz?ocid=BingNewsSerp)
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I was musing a bit about traffic in Paris, I saw a fair number of hybrids, and very few EVs, and Diesels seem to have disappeared (though I couldn't tell by looking often as not). I know Norway has gone big time to EVs, I don't think France has (yet). I also was thinking the French average car is larger than it was ca. 2008 when I made my first visit. There are a fair number of small "CUVs" (hybrids) out there, not nearly as many cars that are tiny.
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Yeah cars have definitely grown over there, ever since my first trip in 1995. Though I'm not sure how, I don't think the streets or parking spots are any bigger. My first rental car was a Ford Mondeo which was the same as a Ford Tempo here in the US. Small car for the US, right? Over there it was massive. I couldn't park it anywhere inside the cities, it was only good for the parking lots in the hotels and business parks out in the suburbs. But I was making regular trips into the cities and country villages, so I had to trade it in for a much smaller little hatchback Citroen ZX, which was still pretty large but manageable.
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What I Learned Driving a Porsche Taycan from Detroit to L.A. (https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/travel/a63769306/what-i-learned-driving-porsche-taycan-from-detroit-to-la/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR&T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwY2xjawIlo_VleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHSoKNKCHYv7tCKUV-eLxGFPVcjKVtPT5ugv6uCIld2dtH3TotaHoBBu4tw_aem_222qh-7eKtGeicsBrNPL7A)
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(https://i.imgur.com/mHezCht.jpeg)
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It’s No Mystery Why the F-150 Lightning EV Isn’t Selling Like Ford Hoped (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ev-pickup-truck-production-reduction-report/?utm_campaign=true_anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_type=organic&fbclid=IwY2xjawI6ajxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHZ2qI5I61Ct2TD2YQfXTylnjUSp1-Si7BSiMZvTB-J-5kTXqgq42eIBofw_aem_viln2CrByELLGc0PAyL5lA)
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My take on EVs:
1. Early adopters jumped in, early, and made the market seem pretty strong.
2. Various governments came up with various mandates in the near future.
3. Nearly every car company announced pretty aggressive moves to transition to EVs.
4. The market got saturated, and those companies announced cut backs/pauses.
5. Regular consumers have not been convinced, some no doubt waiting for issues to be corrected ($$$, range, charging time and expense), some just not interested for other reasons.
Sales are still growing of course, but not as fast as many expected, so there is a glut. It all sounded good, sort of, 5 years ago or so.
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Honestly, I think a huge portion of it, and this is what the Motor Trend article that you posted is...
$$$$$$$
A BEV comparable in trim/etc to an ICEV is not comparable in cost.
A Hyundai Tucson and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 are relatively comparable. The Tucson MSRP starts at $28K, and the Ioniq 5 at $42K. The same is true for the Elantra ($21K) vs Ioniq 6 ($37K).
The lowest-end F150 SuperCrew starts at $43K. According to the Ford web site, the Lightning starts at $62K.
The price not only limits the market of potential buyers, but buyers know you can get more for your money with ICEV.
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As per your wider point about all the doom & gloom about EVs, you're entirely right. The market is growing, but manufacturers built for a growth rate that didn't materialize, and now the BEV market is in oversupply.
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It's OK For EVs To Be 'Worse' Than Gas Cars (https://insideevs.com/features/752852/evs-versus-gas-cars/)
Not sure I agree with their premise. I do agree that trying to shoehorn EV batteries into carmakers' premier heaviest vehicles (large SUVs, pickups) is probably a difficult sale. However I think the author doesn't seem to understand that 1) Americans don't like buying little econoboxes, and 2) the problem with trying to make even a little econobox with 250+ mile range is that the battery makes it a little box, sans econo.
I think carmakers are trying to get "EV" into their most expensive big vehicle [and/or luxury] platforms because that's where the adder of the EV battery is the smallest percentage cost adder, and where the buyers are more affluent and can more easily handle the added upfront cost of BEV.
Ultimately the battery costs have to keep coming down.
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It's OK For EVs To Be 'Worse' Than Gas Cars
but, not at a much higher price
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I've mentioned before that an EV light duty truck for a plumbing company or a delivery van could make sense. There are applications where range is more or less irrelevant, as is charging time. We have about 6-8 EVs in our building (125 units). They do have to charge at the two place charging site in the property if they don't go to Kroger or elsewhere.
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yup, company work vehicles that don't go on weekend events out of town or vacations have very limited range requirements many times
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I've mentioned before that an EV light duty truck for a plumbing company or a delivery van could make sense. There are applications where range is more or less irrelevant, as is charging time. We have about 6-8 EVs in our building (125 units). They do have to charge at the two place charging site in the property if they don't go to Kroger or elsewhere.
Honestly an EV light duty truck would be ideal for me. I used to drive a Ford Ranger. It was great. Having a pickup truck available is a TREMENDOUSLY convenient luxury in life, and once the kids start leaving the house, I don't need a big people-hauler vehicle. But at the same time, I don't do nearly enough "truck stuff" to justify something the size and capability of an F-150.
But a brand new Ranger starts at about $32K. If an EV ranger was suddenly $47K, I'd nope right the eff out of that idea. I'm not spending nearly 50 grand on a light duty truck.
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(https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/static/article/news/6/159166_0_wide_ver1699453806.jpg)