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Topic: The 'United' States of America

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OrangeAfroMan

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The 'United' States of America
« on: June 20, 2024, 06:28:09 PM »
I've long been a promotor of states really experimenting and trying out all kinds of stuff in order to help identify what's best - in all areas.

But in pondering that today, I second guess myself.  I'm fearful each state, if given enough rope to do so, will possibly hang itself.  
And I can make examples from both extremes here as an argument against total state freedoms.
Do we really want Alabama to "Alabama" as much as it can?  I'd argue no.
It also wouldn't be good for California to be as 'California' as it can.
I'd argue Texas shouldn't Texas to the extreme, but I think it already is.

I think people forget that Federal reach acts as a sort of social and economic gravity, pulling each state back towards the middle.  
.

Another thought I had is to treat counties as we do states.  Maybe to avoid a future civil war between urban and rural, just have counties' rights be the ultimate law of the land.  That way, if you are unhappy with your county's politics, it's easier to move to a nearby county compared to moving entire states away.  Or you could drive over for services you want, but aren't available in your county.
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longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2024, 07:38:47 PM »
I've long been a promotor of states really experimenting and trying out all kinds of stuff in order to help identify what's best - in all areas.

But in pondering that today, I second guess myself.  I'm fearful each state, if given enough rope to do so, will possibly hang itself. 
And I can make examples from both extremes here as an argument against total state freedoms.
Do we really want Alabama to "Alabama" as much as it can?  I'd argue no.
It also wouldn't be good for California to be as 'California' as it can.
I'd argue Texas shouldn't Texas to the extreme, but I think it already is.

I think people forget that Federal reach acts as a sort of social and economic gravity, pulling each state back towards the middle. 
.

Another thought I had is to treat counties as we do states.  Maybe to avoid a future civil war between urban and rural, just have counties' rights be the ultimate law of the land.  That way, if you are unhappy with your county's politics, it's easier to move to a nearby county compared to moving entire states away.  Or you could drive over for services you want, but aren't available in your county.

please give some examples
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2024, 07:43:48 PM »
please give some examples
Well, you can look at history. Jim Crow laws. Laws banning interracial marriage. The like. The whole reason behind the 14th Amendment incorporation doctrine was that the Constitution protects the rights of individuals, and that protection should also flow down to state and local government actions, not just Federal. 

Or you can look at current stuff. Saying "no more gas cars after 2035" (CA), or banning lab-grown meat for no discernible reason (FL/AL). 

I'm sure OAM can give some examples too. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2024, 07:48:44 PM »
Here's my "radical" thought:


  • Protection of individual rights should be done on the most wide possible basis, Federal if possible. 
  • Government powers should be devolved to state and local governments as much as possible. 


Simple.

Restrain the portion of government that can hurt you as much as possible so that CA or TX or AL can't get away with something just because the voters there say it's cool. Petty tyrants exist, from the HOA level to the city council level to the state legislature level to the House of Representatives. But the bigger the population gets, the harder it is for them to exert their petty grudges/beliefs. 

But the portion of government that DOES stuff should be as local as possible so that it actually responds to the unique local conditions of the people it serves based on their unique local needs. Need for government services might be very different in Cheyenne WY than in Seattle WA, so why should they be determined in DC?

longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2024, 07:49:26 PM »
Well, you can look at history. Jim Crow laws. Laws banning interracial marriage. The like. The whole reason behind the 14th Amendment incorporation doctrine was that the Constitution protects the rights of individuals, and that protection should also flow down to state and local government actions, not just Federal.

Or you can look at current stuff. Saying "no more gas cars after 2035" (CA), or banning lab-grown meat for no discernible reason (FL/AL).

I'm sure OAM can give some examples too.
not sure how going to county level would do anything but creat thousands of governing juristictions making it nearly impossible to have any unity on a Federal level
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longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2024, 07:53:25 PM »
Here's my "radical" thought:


  • Protection of individual rights should be done on the most wide possible basis, Federal if possible.
  • Government powers should be devolved to state and local governments as much as possible.


Simple.

Restrain the portion of government that can hurt you as much as possible so that CA or TX or AL can't get away with something just because the voters there say it's cool. Petty tyrants exist, from the HOA level to the city council level to the state legislature level to the House of Representatives. But the bigger the population gets, the harder it is for them to exert their petty grudges/beliefs.

But the portion of government that DOES stuff should be as local as possible so that it actually responds to the unique local conditions of the people it serves based on their unique local needs. Need for government services might be very different in Cheyenne WY than in Seattle WA, so why should they be determined in DC?

isnt that how its done now
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2024, 07:58:09 PM »
isnt that how its done now
Probably with individual rights. 

Gov't powers on the other hand have been on a long march to being centralized for oh, just about 235 years now :57:

longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2024, 08:02:10 PM »
Probably with individual rights.

Gov't powers on the other hand have been on a long march to being centralized for oh, just about 235 years now :57:

The Constitution is pretty clear that unless specified otherwise power should go to the states.  If this isnt being followed SCOTUS is there to correct the situation.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2024, 09:32:59 PM »
The Constitution is pretty clear that unless specified otherwise power should go to the states.  If this isnt being followed SCOTUS is there to correct the situation.
Sure. That's a nice idea. Here's a great book explaining how that idea was eroded (by SCOTUS) over the past two centuries: https://a.co/d/0h3mriAo

longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2024, 09:47:48 PM »
Sure. That's a nice idea. Here's a great book explaining how that idea was eroded (by SCOTUS) over the past two centuries: https://a.co/d/0h3mriAo

Thanks for your suggestion.  Im for following the Constitution and anytime Congress and or the President over steps it needs to be corrected.

One big area Im thinking of is the Green movement. It seems the citizen is just an observer and has little say in various restrictions imposed concerning it.
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

bayareabadger

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2024, 10:14:35 PM »
Maybe it comes from living in a few different ones (and living in a couple places with borders of sorts), but the older I get, the more I find the fixation on states to be sort of silly. Most contain so much diversity that they’re only loosely a unified idea of a place. 

I suppose that makes me more of a federalist. That and seeing enough state party machines to get the sense they somehow manage to be more egregious crooks than the feds. 

longhorn320

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2024, 10:34:53 PM »
Maybe it comes from living in a few different ones (and living in a couple places with borders of sorts), but the older I get, the more I find the fixation on states to be sort of silly. Most contain so much diversity that they’re only loosely a unified idea of a place.

I suppose that makes me more of a federalist. That and seeing enough state party machines to get the sense they somehow manage to be more egregious crooks than the feds.
At the founding of this country folks looked at a state like it was a country which is much different then today.  However the need for states is to put government to the citizen level which this country does a decent job of for the most part.

As Shelby Foote pointed out prior to the Civil War a person might refer to The United States in the plural like The United State are for this.... but after the Civil War it was singular like The United States is for this....

The beauty of the founding fathers is that they recognized and respected states rights and made a clear effort to instruct that the Federal Government should have limited direct authority and everything else passed to the states to govern

Sometimes Washington DC forgets this and has to be reminded
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Gigem

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2024, 11:23:10 PM »
Biggest con job in the history of the world…media, politicians, celebrities, and other parties with an agenda…somehow convincing the average American that things are just so bad. 

I’ve been all over the country, and everywhere I go I can find common ground with most of the people I meet. And I usually end up liking most of them. Sure, we have differences, but at the end of the day we’re all Americans. 

Shit, I even like the people who live near Austin and wear a funny shade of Orange. 

Gigem

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Re: The 'United' States of America
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2024, 11:32:38 PM »
And sometimes I see things in the media or TV that goes completely against my values and who I am that it enrages me. 

But then I think about all the really smart people over the years, and centuries, who had certain morals and beliefs. Educated people, smart people. Founders of the country, the best of the best and brightest of the bright. 

And then, sometimes, they were just wrong. So fucking wrong about some things…that it just seems incomprehensible. Things like slavery.  Different forms of abuse that were permitted. Racism. Sexism. 

I ponder this, and it occurs to me…that there may just be the tiniest possibility that maybe I’m wrong on certain things too. Thinking about this keeps me grounded, and much more open minded. Not to say I’m going to switch my thoughts anytime soon, but I can see where some of them come from. 

 

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