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Topic: QB with the most help around him

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rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2020, 10:09:03 PM »
i'm not gonna go list 100 qb's from each season. the majority of qb's wouldn't have fared as well as hurts/sims/coker, imo.

would bama be a good team handing the ball off to henry every play? sure, probably. would they be sec/national title good? no.

but that wasn't really my point. you acted surprise that 8 qb's produced 5(6) national titles. but 3 of those qb's are hall of famers and account for 3(4) of those. i'm still not sure why.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2020, 10:13:46 PM »
A - you're obviously biased, you're going to defend these guys even though I specifically said I'm not ragging on them
B - none of the players you called HOFers are in any Hall of Fame
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I should know better than to try to have an objective conversation about anything here.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2020, 10:24:31 PM »
a - you called them chopped liver and weak links.
b - will be.

i should know better than to expect you to admit when you're wrong.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2020, 10:40:37 PM »
a - you called them chopped liver and weak links.
b - will be.

i should know better than to expect you to admit when you're wrong.
You brought in the "chopped liver" label.  And yes, John Parker Wilson, Blake Sims, and year 1 of AJ McCarron are relatively chopped liver when compared to other contemporary NC-winning QBs like Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, and Jameis Winston. 
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I don't think you're much of a Nostradamus with those HOF predictions, lol.

It's not even about Alabama, anyway.  Let's pick another team that you won't lose all objectivity about...
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 10:52:35 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2020, 11:15:51 PM »
Sure, it's why he transferred - his limited passing ability.
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Hurts is a case where he saddled the most responsibility in an environment that would have been more productive for him to be a quality distributor.  Sort of like he played point guard like Allen Iverson, despite having Larry Bird camped out at the 3-point line and James Worthy slashing towards the hoop.  He's taking too many shots in that situation.
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Hurts was a poorer passer than both is predecessor and successor.  He was a good runner for a QB, but his yards per carry was worse than his RBs.  Now, that's usually true because sacks are counted in, but still.  In '16, his RBs averaged almost 2 yards per carry more than he did.  So having a good running QB is an additional attribute can be a good thing, it isn't if he's less productive than the alternative*. 
To his credit, he did improve as a passer in '17, but was night-and-day from being as good as Tua.
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Again, this discussion isn't to talk badly about anyone.  Hurts started at QB for great Alabama teams and was a good player.  But he was surrounded by elite talent.  The more of the load he shouldered, I fear it was at the expense of more production by his teammates.
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*if your mind invariably jumps to Tebow, he was Florida's designated 3rd & 1, 4th & 1, and goal-to-go ball carrier.  This is evidenced by the rushing TDs, you can look up yourself
Some similar thoughts about him at OU.  He was a great leader, a high-character guy.  Sooner fans love Jalen Huts the man.  But he took a lot of carries away from the RBs and he left open WRs un-thrown to.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2020, 11:21:06 PM »
FSU:   yr - QB - ATT - RATE - RB YPC - TOP 2 WR - Scoring D Rank
87 - McManus........264.....125.......7.2.......Gainer/Carter......7th
88 - Ferguson........194......153......5.3.......Antho ny/Lewis.....14th
89 - Willis................346....151......5.2.......D awsey/Anthony.....17th
90 - Weldon/Johnson..345....144.....5.2.......Dawsey/Bennett......21st
91 - Weldon(2nd).... 313....146.....5.3......Baker/Bennett........13th
92 - Ward..................365.....127.....5.0......Va nover/Knox.........14th
93 - Ward . ...............380.....158.....6.2......McCorvey/Vanover....1st
94 - Kanell.................380.......129.....6.8..... McCorvey/Dunn.......14th
95 - Kanell.................402.......146.....7.5..... Cooper/Green.........32nd
96 - Busby................243........132.....6.2...... Green/Dunn.........5th
97 - Busby................390........148.....5.6...... Green/Warrick.......7th
98 - Weinke.............286.........142.....4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....3rd
99 - Weinke.............377.......145.......4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....11th
00 - Weinke.  .........431........163......5.1......Minnis/Minor..........1st
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So as Florida gets boat-raced in the Cotton Bowl, I chose these data points because.....attempts = trust the HC has in his QB (and is affected by running game effectiveness)....pass rating - to show HOW the QB did in his given attempts......the RB ypc to see if the QB had a good running game to rely on......the top 2 pass-catchers to see if those names were good/talented.....and how the defense was.  I'd argue these are all connected and will let us have some sort of conversation.  You know, unless someone gets butthurt and wants to defend these FSU QBs and ignore the actual conversation.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2020, 11:41:41 PM »
You brought in the "chopped liver" label.  And yes, John Parker Wilson, Blake Sims, and year 1 of AJ McCarron are relatively chopped liver when compared to other contemporary NC-winning QBs like Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, and Jameis Winston. 
.
I don't think you're much of a Nostradamus with those HOF predictions, lol.

It's not even about Alabama, anyway.  Let's pick another team that you won't lose all objectivity about...
i said they were not chopped liver because you acted surprised they won titles. you said they were chopped liver.

neither sims nor jpw won a title, and mccarrons 1st year was better than burrows first year as starter.

i'm not trying to be nostradomus, you strawman attacking ditz. i was using it as a point that you should not be surprised that future hall of famers won titles.  which was the whole premise of your original post.

you listed 8 bama qb's that have won 5, maybe 6 titles. and that it's disgusting, primarily because they're the weakest link on those teams. i counter with they aren't bad qbs, and that 3 of the are responsible for most of those titles and are very likely future hall of fame qbs.

i don't need to see other qbs because this string of comments is directly related to those 8 bama qbs.

as for the original topic, sure there's been tons of qbs with ridiculous talent around them. almost any title winning qb will have them. burrow and tlaw are among them, as are tua, hurts, and jones. leinhart is probably up there. tebow too. probably easier to list those that didn't. young and cam newton come to mind.

bayareabadger

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2020, 11:42:31 PM »
Coker got to hand the ball off to Derrick Henry 395 times in 2015.  I think one of us could've done pretty well on that team.
I know it's a joke, but also, no. 

bayareabadger

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2020, 11:45:54 PM »
FSU:  yr - QB - ATT - RATE - RB YPC - TOP 2 WR - Scoring D Rank
87 - McManus........264.....125.......7.2.......Gainer/Carter......7th
88 - Ferguson........194......153......5.3.......Antho ny/Lewis.....14th
89 - Willis................346....151......5.2.......D awsey/Anthony.....17th
90 - Weldon/Johnson..345....144.....5.2.......Dawsey/Bennett......21st
91 - Weldon(2nd).... 313....146.....5.3......Baker/Bennett........13th
92 - Ward..................365.....127.....5.0......Va nover/Knox.........14th
93 - Ward . ...............380.....158.....6.2......McCorvey/Vanover....1st
94 - Kanell.................380.......129.....6.8..... McCorvey/Dunn.......14th
95 - Kanell.................402.......146.....7.5..... Cooper/Green.........32nd
96 - Busby................243........132.....6.2...... Green/Dunn.........5th
97 - Busby................390........148.....5.6...... Green/Warrick.......7th
98 - Weinke.............286.........142.....4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....3rd
99 - Weinke.............377.......145.......4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....11th
00 - Weinke. .........431........163......5.1......Minnis/Minor..........1st
.
So as Florida gets boat-raced in the Cotton Bowl, I chose these data points because.....attempts = trust the HC has in his QB (and is affected by running game effectiveness)....pass rating - to show HOW the QB did in his given attempts......the RB ypc to see if the QB had a good running game to rely on......the top 2 pass-catchers to see if those names were good/talented.....and how the defense was.  I'd argue these are all connected and will let us have some sort of conversation.  You know, unless someone gets butthurt and wants to defend these FSU QBs and ignore the actual conversation.

I assume the bolded ones are ones we think are ace drivers as compared to just behind the wheel? Christ, those Warrick Dunn run games. 

rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2020, 11:48:09 PM »
Some similar thoughts about him at OU.  He was a great leader, a high-character guy.  Sooner fans love Jalen Huts the man.  But he took a lot of carries away from the RBs and he left open WRs un-thrown to.
most bama fans won't disagree. doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a good qb and that those runs weren't quality plays. just because pass plays have more y/a doesn't mean running plays aren't worth it. even if it's just to keep them honest. and one of the threats/benefits of having a qb like hurts is it makes the d respect his runs, which in turn gives the rb's better chance at success.
hurts was a 1 read-scramble qb his first year. he progressed to a 2-3 read qb by jr/sr year. still not a full field general, but when combined with his legs made him a legit threat to any d. and a really good overall college qb.

CWSooner

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2020, 12:49:51 AM »
most bama fans won't disagree. doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a good qb and that those runs weren't quality plays. just because pass plays have more y/a doesn't mean running plays aren't worth it. even if it's just to keep them honest. and one of the threats/benefits of having a qb like hurts is it makes the d respect his runs, which in turn gives the rb's better chance at success.
hurts was a 1 read-scramble qb his first year. he progressed to a 2-3 read qb by jr/sr year. still not a full field general, but when combined with his legs made him a legit threat to any d. and a really good overall college qb.
I don't disagree with that.  He was a good, sometimes really good college QB.
I did forget to mention that he had some turnovers at damaging moments.  But he bailed us out at times too.
He's seeing some playing time with the Eagles.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2020, 01:04:44 AM »
I assume the bolded ones are ones we think are ace drivers as compared to just behind the wheel? Christ, those Warrick Dunn run games.
Heisman winners and a 2nd-place finish (Weldon)
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2020, 01:20:37 AM »
So if we look at the FSU list.....we see the 2 Heisman seasons were the top 2 QB ratings, but also, the only 2 years when FSU had the #1 scoring defense.  It makes Weldon's 2nd-place finish seem odd.  Despite not having an exceptional RB, FSU still passed the ball far less and no more effectively than the year before.  Yet Weldon was celebrated.  
The transition to Ward was a paradigm shift - passing a lot more and acting like you're in your 2-minute offense all game long.  
But while Ward's 93 season was great, how many others could have gone 12-1 with the #1 defense and a RB averaging 6.2 ypc?  A handful?  A lot?  Most?  Somewhere in there.  
Maybe not as many as I thought.  1993 wasn't exactly a banner year for QBs.  And Ward did have a unique skill set - it's not often a QB rushes for 5.2 ypc on draws and scrambles only.  Add to that his low INT% and I'd only be confident 2 others could plug-n-play, surrounded by FSU's substantial support:  VT's Maurice DeShazo and UT's Heath Shuler.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2020, 01:22:04 AM »
Guys, I'm just being nerdy here.  The season is almost over and having the discussion is fun for me.  I'm not here for subjectively to come wreck the whole thing - I hate that shit.  If we're talking about an 8 -year stretch of your team's old QBs and it irks you, please accept this invitation to piss off.  

Just enjoy the discussing or move on, please.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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