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Topic: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out

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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42868 on: March 10, 2025, 06:44:41 PM »
I don't think this hypothesis is sound.  The "restriction" of only being able to hire within the Austin area is minimal, because it's still a vast pool of potential employees.  I disagree with the frictionless model you're assuming in the remote worker labor pool.

In short, once again, I don't think it's statistically significant for very large companies.

And smaller companies don't have vast economies of scale, so any incremental gains aren't likely that great.

And that's not even counting the potential offsetting benefits from in-person work, some of which we've already touched on here, like quicker ramp and more thorough education and deeper understanding provided to new workers, when they have access to older more experienced coworkers.
What's the thought on disagreeing with the frictionless element? 

I mean, even with a vast pool of employees (people in Austin or ready to move to Austin), you are sacrificing the option of people who would take less because they don't live in Austin. You also have to pay a competitive salary in Austin, which is probably notably higher than someone who works remote and lives in Ames, Iowa. 

Now as you said, having people in the building might provide more value, but on the cost side, assuming the job can be done from most anywhere, you almost assuredly generate savings from being able to choose from more people in more places, or a well-run business should be able to. Maybe I'm missing something?

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42869 on: March 10, 2025, 06:51:46 PM »
What's the thought on disagreeing with the frictionless element?

I mean, even with a vast pool of employees (people in Austin or ready to move to Austin), you are sacrificing the option of people who would take less because they don't live in Austin. You also have to pay a competitive salary in Austin, which is probably notably higher than someone who works remote and lives in Ames, Iowa.

Now as you said, having people in the building might provide more value, but on the cost side, assuming the job can be done from most anywhere, you almost assuredly generate savings from being able to choose from more people in more places, or a well-run business should be able to. Maybe I'm missing something?
Taking the time and making the effort to micro-manage employee salaries that closely, requires additional resources from a company, so you're already losing some of the benefit. That's one example of the friction.  There are likely more but it's already proven not to be frictionless.

And many jobs nationally simply demand a particular salary, regardless of where you live.  Sometimes you might get a COL bump for employees living in, say, California, but again it's more costly to manage the variety and some companies don't offer that at all.

I'll say that I'm talking mostly about high tech work, and/or Fortune 500 companies involved in banking/insurance/consulting that all share similar requirements, because that's what I'm most familiar with.  But that also represents a significant portion of the potential market for companies that have the option of remote workers in the first place.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42870 on: March 10, 2025, 06:54:13 PM »
The local company part is pretty interesting. Do you want to be a local company or not? If you want to with lots of folks together, that's super. If you want to be regional with operations spread across many cities and states, you dilute the value of being at a desk at 9.

And I agree with the quoted part I left. I honestly love going into an office. I don't love it when I need to be in by a certain time, but I like having one to go into, people to have lunch with, etc. But I live a life where it doesn't cost me much to do that. And the pullback is reaching into workers' pockets. So my thought with all the pullbacks is how do these things balance out? And I don't have a great answer. I'm not the one losing hours with my kids so I can sit in traffic.
When you get to be a certain size, with enough history, it might not be possible to be a "local" company. Acquisitions, spinoffs, etc. As my industry became increasingly commoditized, it naturally led to consolidation. There are now only 3 companies in the world who manufacture the product we do. But that consolidation means that you've picked up people/companies over the decades from different areas of the country/globe, and you don't want to lose them and the knowledge they have. 

We're lucky if we can have meetings where people are in remotely similar time zones, much less offices. I've got a meeting at 5 PM today where we're going over things with our APAC team, and then we'll host the exact same meeting tomorrow morning at 8 AM for our US/EMEA teams. There is exactly zero value in hosting those meetings in a conference room + virtual when 95% of the attendees won't be in that conference room. 

As for the part you've quoted, I'm torn. I like going into the office if there's a real reason. But I'm also an introvert so I don't seek people out when I'm in the office much at all any more. But as for the mentorship thing I had a meeting with one of the younger folks from our team who was asking for something where I specifically scheduled it on a day when we'd both be in the office because I knew it would be a better meeting that way. 

As for @utee94 , I suspect this same thing exists. He might be at the "mothership", but despite the rich hiring environment in Austin (or places like Silicon Valley), I think it might just not be feasible to limit your hiring pool to Austin because you already have offices all over the country/world. I used to visit a company that his company acquired back in the day... They always got happy when I came to visit in winter because people from CA often avoided them in winter in... MN. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42871 on: March 10, 2025, 07:05:17 PM »
Taking the time and making the effort to micro-manage employee salaries that closely, requires additional resources from a company, so you're already losing some of the benefit. That's one example of the friction.  There are likely more but it's already proven not to be frictionless.

And many jobs nationally simply demand a particular salary, regardless of where you live.  Sometimes you might get a COL bump for employees living in, say, California, but again it's more costly to manage the variety and some companies don't offer that at all.

I'll say that I'm talking mostly about high tech work, and/or Fortune 500 companies involved in banking/insurance/consulting that all share similar requirements, because that's what I'm most familiar with.  But that also represents a significant portion of the potential market for companies that have the option of remote workers in the first place.
Hmmm. I've not worked deeply in managing salaries, but if major companies aren't calibrating salaries to a high degree, I suppose I'll have to believe that. 

I can only speak from my own hiring experience, but my sense was the upside of hiring remotely was because you could generate more options and leverage some value from people living outside of expensive markets. I can pick my best candidate and have the lowest friction. I suppose it's interesting that Fortune 500 companies simply don't benefit from those seemingly basic things. Makes me wonder why hire remote at all. 

But if these companies haven't gotten any value on those two fronts, I suppose there's no value to be lost. 

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42872 on: March 10, 2025, 11:38:42 PM »
Hmmm. I've not worked deeply in managing salaries, but if major companies aren't calibrating salaries to a high degree, I suppose I'll have to believe that.

I can only speak from my own hiring experience, but my sense was the upside of hiring remotely was because you could generate more options and leverage some value from people living outside of expensive markets. I can pick my best candidate and have the lowest friction. I suppose it's interesting that Fortune 500 companies simply don't benefit from those seemingly basic things. Makes me wonder why hire remote at all.

But if these companies haven't gotten any value on those two fronts, I suppose there's no value to be lost.

Like MarqHusker said about his company, and me about mine-- a lot of companies are abandoning the practice.  

I don't know how ultimately it's going to shake out, but for the time being, I'm seeing a paradigm shift among very large companies, back to something more like what it was 10-15 years ago.  

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42873 on: March 10, 2025, 11:43:53 PM »
When you get to be a certain size, with enough history, it might not be possible to be a "local" company. Acquisitions, spinoffs, etc. As my industry became increasingly commoditized, it naturally led to consolidation. There are now only 3 companies in the world who manufacture the product we do. But that consolidation means that you've picked up people/companies over the decades from different areas of the country/globe, and you don't want to lose them and the knowledge they have.

We're lucky if we can have meetings where people are in remotely similar time zones, much less offices. I've got a meeting at 5 PM today where we're going over things with our APAC team, and then we'll host the exact same meeting tomorrow morning at 8 AM for our US/EMEA teams. There is exactly zero value in hosting those meetings in a conference room + virtual when 95% of the attendees won't be in that conference room.

As for the part you've quoted, I'm torn. I like going into the office if there's a real reason. But I'm also an introvert so I don't seek people out when I'm in the office much at all any more. But as for the mentorship thing I had a meeting with one of the younger folks from our team who was asking for something where I specifically scheduled it on a day when we'd both be in the office because I knew it would be a better meeting that way.

As for @utee94 , I suspect this same thing exists. He might be at the "mothership", but despite the rich hiring environment in Austin (or places like Silicon Valley), I think it might just not be feasible to limit your hiring pool to Austin because you already have offices all over the country/world. I used to visit a company that his company acquired back in the day... They always got happy when I came to visit in winter because people from CA often avoided them in winter in... MN.

Yeah for sure, we're not limited solely to Austin because we already have offices all over the country and all over the world.  And if you live within 1 hour commute of one of those offices, you're now expected to come in to work.

If you don't live within 1 hour commute, well... I'll just say, that if you can't find a way to get into the office, then I'd prep my resume before the next round of layoffs.  And going forward we're not going to be hiring anyone else to work remotely.

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42874 on: March 11, 2025, 12:03:24 AM »
Been with my company now 22 years. Started as on-site, no such thing as working remote. 2020 took a job that allowed at least some remote work. Pandemic hit, went fully remote for 8 months, then hybrid a bunch. The thing is that so many of our meetings were already remote or hybrid before the pandemic hit. A lot of our workforce was spread around 2-3 local sites, 15-20 minute drive to get from site to site, and back to back meetings made remote or hybrid work ideal. And, we have engineering centers in India, people that we meet with regularly that we will never get to know face to face. 

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42875 on: March 11, 2025, 12:11:15 AM »
A big thing in the company is work-life balance ( for the engineers and day staff), they are big into supporting moms.  They give parents 4 months of leave, and up to a year to take it. This is for both parents, not just the moms. It’s not unusual at all for the women to work almost fully remote for a long while after their leave is up.  I’ve been in more than a few meetings where you could hear a baby crying in the background from multiple of our young people. I’m not sure they’re going to be able to walk that back much, because it definitely becomes embedded in the job. 

You know what’s worse than a meeting with people who are fully remote?  A hybrid meeting where half the people are in person, and half are remote. So much overlapping talk, poor audio, unseen cues. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42876 on: March 11, 2025, 08:44:10 AM »
Like MarqHusker said about his company, and me about mine-- a lot of companies are abandoning the practice. 

I don't know how ultimately it's going to shake out, but for the time being, I'm seeing a paradigm shift among very large companies, back to something more like what it was 10-15 years ago. 
I suppose it depends how complete the industry shift is. Or if these company’s are so far out ahead, that it doesn’t even matter.

Because we’re taking a somewhat notable shift in comp/value for a lot of folks, and it’ll be fascinating how that comes out in the wash economically. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42877 on: March 11, 2025, 08:59:56 AM »
When you get to be a certain size, with enough history, it might not be possible to be a "local" company. Acquisitions, spinoffs, etc. As my industry became increasingly commoditized, it naturally led to consolidation. There are now only 3 companies in the world who manufacture the product we do. But that consolidation means that you've picked up people/companies over the decades from different areas of the country/globe, and you don't want to lose them and the knowledge they have.

We're lucky if we can have meetings where people are in remotely similar time zones, much less offices. I've got a meeting at 5 PM today where we're going over things with our APAC team, and then we'll host the exact same meeting tomorrow morning at 8 AM for our US/EMEA teams. There is exactly zero value in hosting those meetings in a conference room + virtual when 95% of the attendees won't be in that conference room.

As for the part you've quoted, I'm torn. I like going into the office if there's a real reason. But I'm also an introvert so I don't seek people out when I'm in the office much at all any more. But as for the mentorship thing I had a meeting with one of the younger folks from our team who was asking for something where I specifically scheduled it on a day when we'd both be in the office because I knew it would be a better meeting that way.

As for @utee94 , I suspect this same thing exists. He might be at the "mothership", but despite the rich hiring environment in Austin (or places like Silicon Valley), I think it might just not be feasible to limit your hiring pool to Austin because you already have offices all over the country/world. I used to visit a company that his company acquired back in the day... They always got happy when I came to visit in winter because people from CA often avoided them in winter in... MN.
To the last part, I more meant in theory for a smaller company. And the answer might be that access to what should be more affordable workers doesn’t have the payoff economic logic would dictate.

And to the other part, it’s interesting how major companies can do things to make themselves “remote“ companies in a lot of ways. if teams of people who work together are concentrated in places, that seems great. But if a company only has a will to pull someone into any office and then the workflow carries on as if I was sitting on my couch, it drastically reduces the sense that people are losing value for a reason.

And I suppose this all sounds like I’m hell for leather for remote work, and I’m really not. But I think if you’re functionally reducing real comp, you need to make sure the in-office work does more than a few things that remote work didn’t.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42878 on: March 11, 2025, 09:15:47 AM »
After one of the worst single day sell-offs in Tesla’s history, President Donald Trump threw his support behind his advisor, billionaire Elon Musk, vowing to buy one of his cars on Tuesday.

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Shares have plummeted 45% in 2025 and on Monday tumbled more than 15% to $222.15, the lowest since late October, reflecting newfound pessimism as sales crater around the globe.

In an overnight post on his Truth Social platform, Trump said Musk is “putting it on the line” to help the country. Trump claimed in the post that “Radical Left Lunatics” were attempting to “illegally and collusively boycott Tesla, one of the World’s great automakers, and Elon’s ‘baby.”


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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42879 on: March 11, 2025, 09:24:50 AM »
During Covid we were all remote (we were forced to be - not our choice).

Obviously, I'm still remote. Every time I try to get out, they pull me right back in.

We just granted permission to our first employee to be remote. She moved to Naples, and we didn't want to lose her.

We're having lunch next week.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42880 on: March 11, 2025, 09:44:03 AM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42881 on: March 11, 2025, 09:53:14 AM »
During Covid we were all remote (we were forced to be - not our choice).

Obviously, I'm still remote. Every time I try to get out, they pull me right back in.

We just granted permission to our first employee to be remote. She moved to Naples, and we didn't want to lose her.

We're having lunch next week.
Out of curiosity, in your line of work, what is the type of work that gets done remotely? I assume a lot of people have to be on site for things. (Obviously, I assumed all of your Grand Poobah responsibilities could be handled as needed)

 

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