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Topic: In other news ...

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37940 on: October 14, 2024, 12:56:24 PM »
Curiously, the people charged with managing inflation (the Fed, at least here in the U.S.) were not as convinced at the time.
Well it's possible that they thought they needed to keep interest rates low to forestall a COVID-induced recession (which never materialized). Standard Keynesian theory suggests the government should spend into recessions then pull back during expansions, to smooth things out. If you're in a serious recession, fiscal stimulus might help without causing massive inflation. So you don't need to raise rates if you're in a recession. 

But the Fed got the memo in mid-2022 after the recession didn't materialize and they hiked rates pretty aggressively over the next year.

(I should point out that Keynesian politicians--in practice--usually spend into recessions then spend even MORE into expansions... So they kinda only understand one half of it lol...)

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Also, I haven't seen anyone take on the question: should the U.S. government have simply let everyone deal with the economic consequences of COVID without help? And what would the economics of that have looked like?

I never really got into the "should have" question. Because it's ridiculous. Government would have thrown money at this problem 11 times out of 10. Which is also why I don't place the blame at the feet of the Biden admin. Because we know that Trump was throwing money at this problem while he was still in office, and I have no reason to believe he'd have stopped throwing money at the problem if he'd been reelected. 

Pretty much the entire developed world did it. (Although per the below it's odd that our response was so heavily direct spending when many other countries did it through lending/etc... Not sure what that signifiies.)



847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37941 on: October 14, 2024, 01:02:32 PM »
FTR, I would have been happy to pay back our PPP over time. It's only fair, IMO.
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Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37942 on: October 14, 2024, 01:17:02 PM »


Also, I haven't seen anyone take on the question: should the U.S. government have simply let everyone deal with the economic consequences of COVID without help? And what would the economics of that have looked like?
My answer is no, because it was the government that kept people home, shut down activities, and basically stopped our economy in it's tracks.  

In hindsight, we should have recognized within the first 3 months that the pandemic was really only deadly to a certain segment of the population, and did what we could to protect them, not shutdown the whole enchilada.  I will remind you that I lost my dad and my uncle to COVID, so I did have some skin in the game.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37943 on: October 14, 2024, 02:25:29 PM »
My answer is no, because it was the government that kept people home, shut down activities, and basically stopped our economy in it's tracks. 
I get this, but I think there's a certain fallacy here that if the government didn't shut things down, everything would have proceeded normally like COVID didn't exist. 

I'm not sure I buy that. In a lot of places the shutdowns were fairly short-lived (note: this doesn't include schools, which in too many places stayed remote). Things began to reopen even here in Commiefornia by summer 2020. By that time you *could* start going out to restaurants, bars, etc. It wasn't a forced shutdown. And even to the extent it was, a shutdown can persist as long as people want it to persist--we're a nation of disobedience, and people would [and did] flaunt shutdowns when they decided they wanted to.  

The thing is, people changed their behavior voluntarily and restricted how often they were willing to go out. Until we started getting the vaccines and until COVID changed into the Omicron variant that was less deadly, a lot of people simply still stayed home because they chose to stay home. And when people went out, they social distanced, and they wore masks, and they generally tried NOT to get COVID or spread it. 

In a lot of cases, I criticize how government takes credit for doing something that people do on their own and then codifies it in the law like it was their idea. In this case, we may be overly blaming government for something that people did on their own and the government acting like they were telling us to do it. 

So I don't necessarily buy that the economy would have recovered/performed just fine if we didn't have stimulus. 

Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37944 on: October 14, 2024, 03:36:34 PM »
Good point. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37945 on: October 14, 2024, 04:53:34 PM »
Things began to reopen even here in Commiefornia by summer 2020. By that time you *could* start going out to restaurants, bars, etc. It wasn't a forced shutdown. 
I think you are misremembering. You couldn't eat inside a restaurant in the summer of 2020, at least in LA County, where much of my wife's family lives. Even indoor gatherings were banned. My SIL even talked of power being turned off at homes breaking the rules.

The Governor also lied that this dinner was outside, November 2020. Pictures show it to be about as outside as my dining room.

Newsom faces backlash after attending French Laundry dinner party - POLITICO
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37946 on: October 14, 2024, 05:08:43 PM »
I think you are misremembering. You couldn't eat inside a restaurant in the summer of 2020, at least in LA County, where much of my wife's family lives. Even indoor gatherings were banned. My SIL even talked of power being turned off at homes breaking the rules.
There was a lot of back and forth. Looking at a timeline article, seems that a lot of stuff reopened in June 2020 but then shut back down in July 2020. 

And yes, some of the restrictions that were in place were things like outdoor dining--but that's different than a shutdown. 

I might be misremembering portions because I live in Orange County, where we were always a little more lax than some other places in CA. Los Angeles County was draconian. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37947 on: October 14, 2024, 05:12:59 PM »
There was a lot of back and forth. Looking at a timeline article, seems that a lot of stuff reopened in June 2020 but then shut back down in July 2020.

And yes, some of the restrictions that were in place were things like outdoor dining--but that's different than a shutdown.

I might be misremembering portions because I live in Orange County, where we were always a little more lax than some other places in CA. Los Angeles County was draconian.
Things were not as terrible in Palatine, where our mayor told the police to leave restaurants alone. Lake Zurich was also good.
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Gigem

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37948 on: October 14, 2024, 05:13:32 PM »
I’ve been thinking lately about how important women’s reproductive rights are in this election. Most of the ads I’ve seen are really focused on this issue, on both sides of the aisle. 

The republicans have expended an awful lot of political capital on this issue. Really, they’ve gambled heavily. It could be THE deciding issue for millions of voters, and women comprise ~50% of the eligible voters. I’m curious to see what the consensus is once the smoke clears. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37949 on: October 14, 2024, 05:21:52 PM »
I’ve been thinking lately about how important women’s reproductive rights are in this election. Most of the ads I’ve seen are really focused on this issue, on both sides of the aisle.

The republicans have expended an awful lot of political capital on this issue. Really, they’ve gambled heavily. It could be THE deciding issue for millions of voters, and women comprise ~50% of the eligible voters. I’m curious to see what the consensus is once the smoke clears.
Without going anywhere near the substance of the abortion issue...

...I think one of the worst things that could have happened to Republicans electorally is overturning Roe. It was a perfect wedge issue to lock up the pro-life vote by promising that you'd get rid of Roe, and largely ignored by a LOT of other voters because they didn't think that would ever actually happen. 

Now that it's happened, you're going to mobilize a LOT of voters that really care about it. Every time it comes to a vote of the people, limiting abortion rights is roundly defeated--even in places like Kansas. 

To me, I suspect that there are a lot of women--even conservative women who public profess to be pro-life--who in the anonymity of the voting booth realize "What if I need one? What if my daughter/granddaughter/niece needs one? I'd better vote to protect that right!" 

Putting the issue directly on the electoral table means that you're going to bring out of the woodwork ALL the people who want to protect abortion. And I'd argue that number is larger than the hardcore pro-life group. And that group isn't voting Republican. 

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37950 on: October 14, 2024, 05:26:53 PM »
Without going anywhere near the substance of the abortion issue...

...I think one of the worst things that could have happened to Republicans electorally is overturning Roe. It was a perfect wedge issue to lock up the pro-life vote by promising that you'd get rid of Roe, and largely ignored by a LOT of other voters because they didn't think that would ever actually happen.

Now that it's happened, you're going to mobilize a LOT of voters that really care about it. Every time it comes to a vote of the people, limiting abortion rights is roundly defeated--even in places like Kansas.

To me, I suspect that there are a lot of women--even conservative women who public profess to be pro-life--who in the anonymity of the voting booth realize "What if I need one? What if my daughter/granddaughter/niece needs one? I'd better vote to protect that right!"

Putting the issue directly on the electoral table means that you're going to bring out of the woodwork ALL the people who want to protect abortion. And I'd argue that number is larger than the hardcore pro-life group. And that group isn't voting Republican.

Strategically I think you're right, but if we're going to pile on politicians for not doing what they campaign for and promise, well this is a case where they DID do it.  So whether I agree with it or not, I actually give them credit for following through.  Even if it kills them at the polls.

And I'll also openly state that while I don't agree with draconian rules against abortion, I do agree with it NOT being a federal issue.  Like most things, I think it should be pushed down to the lowest level of government that can feasibly handle it.  




betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37951 on: October 14, 2024, 06:06:17 PM »
Strategically I think you're right, but if we're going to pile on politicians for not doing what they campaign for and promise, well this is a case where they DID do it.  So whether I agree with it or not, I actually give them credit for following through.  Even if it kills them at the polls.

That's fair. Goes to the old quote... Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it! :57:

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And I'll also openly state that while I don't agree with draconian rules against abortion, I do agree with it NOT being a federal issue.  Like most things, I think it should be pushed down to the lowest level of government that can feasibly handle it. 
I've been open that I consider the optimal system one where government powers are devolved to the smallest levels, local if possible, state if not. Whereas individual rights are protected at the widest possible level, federally if possible. 

This is a weird issue though... Because you're balancing individual rights with the moral issue of the fetus/baby. What do you do if Round Rock says abortion is murder while Austin says it's a woman's right to choose? That's going to satisfy the Austin contingent (because a woman in Round Rock can just drive to Austin easily), but is that going to satisfy the Round Rock contingent? Are they cool with someone driving 10 miles to commit murder? 

Are people going to be happy with this just being another "blue law"? You can live in a dry county and drive one county over and buy all the booze you want? Maybe not, considering it's human life hanging in the balance, not just a bottle of booze. 

I try not to argue the abortion issue, because honestly it's just not important or interesting to me. But I feel like making it a local issue is going to piss off literally everyone. 

utee94

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37952 on: October 14, 2024, 06:19:55 PM »
That's fair. Goes to the old quote... Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it! :57:
I've been open that I consider the optimal system one where government powers are devolved to the smallest levels, local if possible, state if not. Whereas individual rights are protected at the widest possible level, federally if possible.

This is a weird issue though... Because you're balancing individual rights with the moral issue of the fetus/baby. What do you do if Round Rock says abortion is murder while Austin says it's a woman's right to choose? That's going to satisfy the Austin contingent (because a woman in Round Rock can just drive to Austin easily), but is that going to satisfy the Round Rock contingent? Are they cool with someone driving 10 miles to commit murder?

Are people going to be happy with this just being another "blue law"? You can live in a dry county and drive one county over and buy all the booze you want? Maybe not, considering it's human life hanging in the balance, not just a bottle of booze.

I try not to argue the abortion issue, because honestly it's just not important or interesting to me. But I feel like making it a local issue is going to piss off literally everyone.


Well to alleviate your immediate concerns, it's not currently a local (municipal) issue and I don't see it ever becoming one.  This one's going to stay at the state level, I expect.

And yes, right now someone in Texas could cross the border into New Mexico to get an abortion.  I suppose that might upset some people in Texas, but really, there's no way to monitor it and ultimately I believe it'll be a case of "out of sight, out of mind."

Probably...



betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #37953 on: October 14, 2024, 06:28:25 PM »
And yes, right now someone in Texas could cross the border into New Mexico to get an abortion.  I suppose that might upset some people in Texas, but really, there's no way to monitor it and ultimately I believe it'll be a case of "out of sight, out of mind."

Probably...
Alabama says "hold my beer"...

 

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