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Topic: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise

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847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #98 on: July 23, 2017, 01:39:18 PM »
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
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TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #99 on: July 23, 2017, 01:52:28 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on July 23, 2017, 12:43:34 PM
They way I see it, dreaming of becoming a Helmet may be boringly hopeless for outsiders and being discarded may be boringly impossible for insiders.

By observation, I think there are presently 10 Helmet teams (ND, Michigan, Texas, OSU, Alabama, USC, Oklahoma, UNL, PSU, and Tennessee) whose prestige was "permanently set," roughly around the year 1970, making them the first such examples (of permanently set prestige) in CFB history.  And as no one has entered or left my set of Helmet club membership since, we don't have any evidence that it could happen.

So I'm not convinced that 20-straight lackluster-on-average seasons could accomplish anything to drop them. 20+ certainly hasn't done that for Notre Dame. To make engaging those possibilities useful, we first need evidence of an unequivocal transition in or out.

Well, I have 11 helmets on my list (see page 1) And I have Tennessee and Nebraska sitting on the outside.  ND is a special non-football case they are the "Catholic Team" and stay culturally relevant because of religious affiliation.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #100 on: July 23, 2017, 02:37:28 PM »
Guys, once we have an ordered list, we'll vote on the cutoff for helmet status.  Patience.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #101 on: July 23, 2017, 03:13:56 PM »
I see more flux in this than some apparently.  It may take 3-4 decades, but I think the list can change, has changed, and will change.

The list in 1940 would be considerably different from the list today.

The list from 1970 might be some different than today.

I think in 2000 it would remain the same, with a few voters changing their list.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2017, 04:00:13 PM »
I think the *continuing* impact of religious affiliation on the perception of ND's modern Helmet affiliation is overstated. That certainly was a defining characteristic of its original fan base size. But, now, I'd sooner say that their current fan base is a product of the same forces as all of ours. Fandom is passed down family lines and by the formation of new families as future alumni matriculate each year.

My guess is that there are far more incoming Irish students each year than newcomers to CFB (or turncoat fans who switch teams), who've never previously rooted for Notre Dame but choose to each year with the reasoning "I'm new to this and that's the Catholic team, so that's who I'm pulling for."

In that sense, Catholicism is part of the massiveness of ND's origin story more than any other mechanism contributing to their current relevance.

And my take is that all a Helmet needed was to have a massive origin story and not mess it up before ~1970.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 04:04:01 PM by Anonymous Coward »
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2017, 05:48:57 PM »
As religion wanes and matters less and less (look at the stats), won't ND's status do the same?  Wouldn't that be frustrating - knowing your status is tied to results less than anyone else's?  Sort of a turnabout from the decades of advantage they've received, no?
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2017, 08:06:59 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2017, 05:48:57 PM
As religion wanes and matters less and less (look at the stats), won't ND's status do the same?  Wouldn't that be frustrating - knowing your status is tied to results less than anyone else's?  Sort of a turnabout from the decades of advantage they've received, no?

If the value of religion to Notre Dame's Helmet status is not continuous, if instead it was merely to get the ball rolling (by applying a critical mass of interest in the Irish Football across the first half of CFB history), then neither a putative decrease in Catholic population nor in Catholic social relevance should have any effect on Notre Dame's Helmet.

By that theory, now that they are in Helmet maintenance mode, they don't rely on anything, including their faith, to keep their fanbase large or their program prestige going.

Of course, if Catholic social relevance diminishes to such an extent that Notre Dame can no longer matriculate full classes of incoming freshmen, then, sure, this might over long time periods change. But the periods of time necessary to experience that (assuming it's at all possible) are likely on the order of plural hundreds of years.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 08:10:23 PM by Anonymous Coward »
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TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2017, 09:44:30 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2017, 05:48:57 PM
As religion wanes and matters less and less (look at the stats), won't ND's status do the same?  Wouldn't that be frustrating - knowing your status is tied to results less than anyone else's?  Sort of a turnabout from the decades of advantage they've received, no?

The amount of people attending church has decreased, but the number of people claiming they are Catholic still increases, it's almost like an ethnicity now. You don't have to go to mass on Sunday to root for the Doomers on Saturday. 
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FearlessF

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2017, 09:58:46 PM »
full classes of incoming freshmen

by this logic, Notre Dame, has been and will be going forward,  losing ground to all the other "helmet" programs since they are a small school

and fandom is certainly handed down by families, but runs of impressive winning, such as FSU or Miami, possibly Clemson currently bring hordes of new fans with no family ties.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2017, 10:22:22 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on July 23, 2017, 08:06:59 PM
If the value of religion to Notre Dame's Helmet status is not continuous, if instead it was merely to get the ball rolling (by applying a critical mass of interest in the Irish Football across the first half of CFB history), then neither a putative decrease in Catholic population nor in Catholic social relevance should have any effect on Notre Dame's Helmet.

By that theory, now that they are in Helmet maintenance mode, they don't rely on anything, including their faith, to keep their fanbase large or their program prestige going.

Of course, if Catholic social relevance diminishes to such an extent that Notre Dame can no longer matriculate full classes of incoming freshmen, then, sure, this might over long time periods change. But the periods of time necessary to experience that (assuming it's at all possible) are likely on the order of plural hundreds of years.

It would be more generational, wouldn't it?  More like stairs and not a steady decline.  Just a thought.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2017, 11:54:03 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on July 23, 2017, 09:58:46 PM
full classes of incoming freshmen

by this logic, Notre Dame, has been and will be going forward,  losing ground to all the other "helmet" programs since they are a small school

That part about matriculants was just a hypothetical about what it might *possibly* take for them to lose their heavy fan base. The more I think about it, that was a dumb thing to write. Just based on family ties, even if there were zero non-football matriculants, we'd expect their fan base to stay plenty fat and healthy. After all, we all know the average american has more than one child to pass his football interest to.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 12:00:02 AM by Anonymous Coward »
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2017, 11:57:25 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2017, 10:22:22 PM
It would be more generational, wouldn't it?  More like stairs and not a steady decline.  Just a thought.

Maybe. I don't think I've thought it over formally/rigorously enough to really say one way or the other. Still, my guess is that the first step or meaningful slope down is an absurdly long way away.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #110 on: July 24, 2017, 06:23:45 AM »
I think the larger influence is winning consistently.  If ND experiences a further 20 year record of relative mediocrity, the shine will fade from the dome.  They have a lot of tradition, but so does Army and Yale.

If ND goes 20 years from today with zero NY6 bowl appearances, I think they slide.

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #111 on: July 24, 2017, 08:53:29 AM »
Michigan
Nebraska
Penn State
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