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Topic: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise

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847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2017, 05:52:03 PM »
Look at Medina's post.

As yes, I don't think M will lead the conference it titles moving forward. They will (and should, given the resources) content nearly every season, however.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 05:53:20 PM »
Michigan isn't #1 and hasn't been for 50+ years or arguably ever. 

From the establishment of the conference in 1896 up through when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor league titles were as follows:
  • 16 Minnesota
  • 15 Michigan
  • 8 Illinois
  • 7 Chicago
From 1942 through 2016 conference titles are as follows:
  • 30 Ohio State
  • 27 Michigan
  • 9 Michigan State
  • 9 Wisconsin

In the period of "beginning until now," Michigan has the most Big Ten championships. That was my data source.

1. Michigan - 42
2. Ohio State -35
3. Minnesota -18

Your date range provides a different window, and different windows can be interesting, but I'd call the chosen years arbitrary. I call all chosen years except "all of them" arbitrary. We've had that conversation (innumerable times) before, though, and do not agree.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2017, 06:04:40 PM »
In the period of "beginning until now," Michigan has the most Big Ten championships. That was my data source.

1. Michigan - 42
2. Ohio State -35
3. Minnesota -18

Your date range provides a different window, and different windows can be interesting, but I'd call the chosen years arbitrary. I call all chosen years except "all of them" arbitrary. We've had that conversation (innumerable times) before, though, and do not agree.

By your theory the best college football programs in the country are:
  • Princeton (28 NC's)
  • Yale (27 NC's)
Unless you are prepared to defend the idea that Princeton and Yale are the best two college football programs in the country you cannot argue that ONLY all-time can be used. 


Ok, now that we have established that it is silly to look only at all-time records because recency has relevance we are only left with the decision of "how recent?"
From 1896 through 1926 Michigan won 11 league titles and Ohio State won three.  Since then Michigan has won 31 and Ohio State has won 32.  Thus, on any time-frame of about 90 years or less, Ohio State is #1. 


Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2017, 06:41:20 PM »
I can happily defend that:

First, you changed the topic -- twice. You switched to NCs and you left the Big Ten.

Second, if you insist on talking about all conferences and NCs**, there are a bunch of ways to reconcile it feeling "weird" that Princeton and Yale are on top. For that, feel free to scoot to the final paragraph. But my preferred method would begin here by ranking the NC getters by their rate of NC-acquisition (total NCs [FBS or Div.I] divided by years spent in FBS orDiv.I).

Adding context to those lists does not require a treatment with specially chosen years. Princeton and Yale left Div.I a looooong time ago. That makes their concentration of titles even more impressive than the raw numbers you reference. They were more dominant in their era than any team in any era. So if we rank all teams across all-time by their rate of NCs, of course they deserve to be ranked at the top.

Now, if you ask me to propose how to change that list (without changing its years) to make it perfectly relevant to today, I'd merely ask you to exclude all teams who are not currently in the FBS. Excluding Princeton and Yale in this way is quite natural. In many senses, they've already excluded themselves.



**(which I'm cool with, and it's certainly true I find the "all-time CFB" span the least arbitrary for those topics, too)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:04:01 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2017, 07:39:07 PM »
It doesn't entirely belong in this thread, but I'll express that for our conference in all 4 combinations, since I had the time and found it fun:

BIG TEN TITLE RATE (All members)

1. Michigan --- 0.378 per year
2. Ohio State --- 0.333
3. Penn State --- 0.167
4. Chicago --- 0.159
5. Minnesota --- 0.149
6. Michigan State --- 0.141
7. Illinois --- 0.124
8. Wisconsin --- 0.116
9. Iowa --- 0.094
10. Northwestern --- 0.066
10. Purdue --- 0.066
12. Indiana --- 0.017
13. Nebraska --- 0.000
13. Maryland --- 0.000
13. Rutgers --- 0.000

BIG TEN TITLE RATE (Current members only)

1. Michigan --- 0.378 per year
2. Ohio State --- 0.333
3. Penn State --- 0.167
4. Minnesota --- 0.149
5. Michigan State --- 0.141
6. Illinois --- 0.124
7. Wisconsin --- 0.116
8. Iowa --- 0.094
9. Northwestern --- 0.066
9. Purdue --- 0.066
11. Indiana --- 0.017
12. Nebraska --- 0.000
12. Maryland --- 0.000
12. Rutgers --- 0.000

BIG TEN TITLES (All members)

1. Michigan --- 42 total
2. Ohio State --- 35
3. Minnesota --- 18
4. Illinois --- 15
5. Wisconsin --- 14
6. Iowa --- 11
7. Michigan State --- 9
8. Northwestern --- 8
8. Purdue --- 8
10. Chicago --- 7
11. Penn State --- 4
12. Indiana --- 2
13. Nebraska --- 0
13. Maryland --- 0
13. Rutgers --- 0

BIG TEN TITLES (Current members only)

1. Michigan --- 42 total
2. Ohio State --- 35
3. Minnesota --- 18
4. Illinois --- 15
5. Wisconsin --- 14
6. Iowa --- 11
7. Michigan State --- 9
8. Northwestern --- 8
8. Purdue --- 8
10. Penn State --- 4
11. Indiana --- 2
12. Nebraska --- 0
12. Maryland --- 0
12. Rutgers --- 0

YEARS OF FOOTBALL MEMBERSHIP

1. Illinois --- 121 years
1. Minnesota --- 121
1. Northwestern --- 121
1. Purdue --- 121
1. Wisconsin --- 121
6. Indiana --- 117
6. Iowa --- 117
8. Michigan --- 111
9. Ohio State --- 105
10. Michigan State --- 64
11. Chicago --- 44
12. Penn State --- 24
13. Nebraska --- 6
14. Maryland --- 3
15. Rutgers --- 3

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2017, 10:14:23 PM »

The 2012 championship game seemed to me to be pretty close.

You misunderstood - I said "non-6"......UGA is one of the six schools that have won the SEC since '92.  So the 2012 game has nothing to do with one of the have-nots finally winning the conference.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2017, 10:15:54 PM »
Last call:

Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma

Rank 'em.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2017, 10:56:30 PM »
Last call on the big, sexy trio....
You already made a last call on this trio

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2017, 11:51:45 PM »
I know, but the transition, I fear, may delay some. 
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ohio1317

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2017, 12:40:38 AM »
Notre Dame
Ohio State
Oklahoma

Ohio State is higher right now, but if success evens out, Notre Dame moves back to the top (which over the long run, it should; at least to a degree).

TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2017, 07:34:46 AM »
D@mn it all. I think you have more votes on this trio than any other. And with the 2 final calls both of them garnered a vote for ND. Allowing those creepy Doomers to take the lead.

hmmm. I went to edit this comment to add a smiley to show I'm not super serious about the above, but when you go to edit the message it take to the quick edit where instead of the original make a post and I don't see where to add smileys.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 07:42:06 AM by TyphonInc »

Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2017, 08:25:14 AM »
As discussed, ND is the classic definition of a helmet team that may not align with "recent history", and does suggest this quality has considerable endurance, though it is not permanent in my opinion.

I think if in ten years ND doesn't finish in the top five 2-3 times, and has some 7-6 type seasons, they will be in danger of sliding out.  Maybe 20.

The UGA game for them this year is perhaps pivotal in a sense.  If they fail to defeat a half decent SEC team at home, the allure will suffer.

Last I checked, they are favored over the Dawgs.

TyphonInc

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2017, 08:48:28 AM »
Maybe it's the just the circle I run in. No one talks about ND 'cept for the one guy whose parents are Catholic. 

I see other helmets getting more hype than the Doomers. I think playing other Helmets as more prestigious.

This season, would you rather beat:  Ohio State, Alabama, or Notre Dame?

Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Team Ranking Exercise
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2017, 09:17:23 AM »
Heh, I'd vote for my team beating all three.  That would be a something.

 :93:

This is obviously a tough group, so I have no problem with any order, but I'm trying to think about helmetosity, the intangible, rather than recent performance, which would have ND at the end of the pack.

 

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