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Topic: Game day SOC.

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MrNubbz

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #364 on: October 09, 2020, 11:27:18 AM »
Charging me? This is speed bag work, keeps me limber. Just out here sharing the MAC knowledge. That's a strange definition there of,is this what you call that Halloween Thesis

Never said it was resounding. Said it was better than the results.
No it isn't given the weight of evidence,a mantra you keep repeating,rather than admit the muff(football wise)

You're right they lost some pieces.
Some pieces,Seriously Clark?

-The Rockets lost 2-4yr starters on the O-Line.6-7 304 lb left tackle Mike VanDerMeulen and 6-5,301 lb right tackle John Morookian
.VanDerM
eulen was 1st team All-MAC.

-Also RBs Thomas & Williams were 4th & 12th in Rushing yards in a 13 team Conf.Thomas was also 2nd in yds per Att.@ 6.3 per.

-WR Eric Page was 2nd in receptions and 3rd in rec yds,2nd in punt return yds  1st Team All-MAC as a WR,KO & Punt retun specialist.

-Ryan Casano was 1st in extra pts , 2nd in field goal %,7th in MAC scoring.

-Already mentioned DB Marrow 8th in Conf.in tackles and 1st team All-MAC DB

So you see reality exists,MC never had them as HC and was swinging from his heels and you were braying that they couldn't beat a team that had as good or better records when they1st faced off.

I also never said those Ball State teams were bad. They were good.
Well stating he(MC) couldn't even beat Ball St the 1st 2 times they played(or sum such) doesn't exactly lend itself to that sentiment
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 11:53:12 AM by MrNubbz »
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

Cincydawg

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #365 on: October 09, 2020, 12:05:39 PM »
What features make you think a coach is going to be good?

Obviously, winning is one.  I'm thinking about a coach for an FCS team, or lower ranked FBS team (Vandy) and you see something that makes you think he's likely to succeed at the next level.


MrNubbz

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #366 on: October 09, 2020, 12:18:58 PM »
Being solid,consistent and steady improvement in all aspects,teaching X&Os,fundamantals,techniques,mechanics.Of course recruitng other good coaches and players precede that
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

Cincydawg

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #367 on: October 09, 2020, 12:36:06 PM »
As a fan watching on TV, is that assessible?

MrNubbz

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #368 on: October 09, 2020, 12:48:09 PM »
By the W/L column I'd imagine
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #369 on: October 09, 2020, 12:57:58 PM »
What features make you think a coach is going to be good?

Obviously, winning is one.  I'm thinking about a coach for an FCS team, or lower ranked FBS team (Vandy) and you see something that makes you think he's likely to succeed at the next level.
I think there are a couple of things you want to see:

  • He recruits above the team's historical level. So much of this game comes down to recruiting, and while helmets somewhat "self-recruit", having someone who is a proven strong recruiter always helps. 
  • Someone who shows player development. Not just that they've come in and taken someone else's players and the team got better, because that could be X&O coaching and scheme. More that over a 4-5 year period, the players they have show growth and as upperclassmen are "playing above their recruiting rating" so to speak. I've seen a lot of coaches [Danny Hope is an example] that bring in players that flash as freshmen but then by the time they're seniors they haven't really changed or improved at all. 
  • Obviously W/L is huge. But it's more than just raw record. You want a coach that can motivate their team to not slip up in the games they should easily win, and at least occasionally can steal wins from teams they should have no chance beating. This is partly X&O stuff, but is also partly team culture and people management. 

Those would be important to me as an AD. One of the biggest problems, of course, is #2. If you wait until an up-and-comer at a lower program gets to his 5th season, he'd often be snapped up by another program... So often you don't have an opportunity to get as much data as you'd really like to make the decision. 


CatsbyAZ

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #370 on: October 09, 2020, 03:52:44 PM »
I think there are a couple of things you want to see:

  • He recruits above the team's historical level. So much of this game comes down to recruiting, and while helmets somewhat "self-recruit", having someone who is a proven strong recruiter always helps.
  • Someone who shows player development. Not just that they've come in and taken someone else's players and the team got better, because that could be X&O coaching and scheme. More that over a 4-5 year period, the players they have show growth and as upperclassmen are "playing above their recruiting rating" so to speak. I've seen a lot of coaches [Danny Hope is an example] that bring in players that flash as freshmen but then by the time they're seniors they haven't really changed or improved at all.
  • Obviously W/L is huge. But it's more than just raw record. You want a coach that can motivate their team to not slip up in the games they should easily win, and at least occasionally can steal wins from teams they should have no chance beating. This is partly X&O stuff, but is also partly team culture and people management.

Those would be important to me as an AD. One of the biggest problems, of course, is #2. If you wait until an up-and-comer at a lower program gets to his 5th season, he'd often be snapped up by another program... So often you don't have an opportunity to get as much data as you'd really like to make the decision.




Frank Beamer is a shining example of achieving and coalescing all three of these factors. And credit VT for showering him with the appreciation he deserved.

As for Number 1, I think it's a big sign of maturity for a coach who can recruit to still realize they have to then turn around and develop players. Lane Kiffin and Steve Sarkisian (especially ten years ago) we're prime examples of leaning everything on their recruiting. So much of their roster never developed, position by position.

Another, smaller factor (3.5?) is a coach whose ego isn't too big (like Kiffin's) to realize their own limitations and in turn have the humility to give control elsewhere, like an assistant who is better suited. I see this with Herm Edwards at ASU. I also saw this with Les Miles at LSU, giving up control of the offense (most of the time). However, I think factor 3.5 is something a coach matures into rather than comes to the table with. Even Kiffin and Sark seem more OK with moving decisions around to other entrusted folk these days. Beamer eventually let Bud Foster do most anything he wanted with the Hokies D. However, Tressel is a good counter example of a guy who demanded utmost control over everything (even how the stadium scoreboard was operated) but it was all OK because he singlehandedly excelled at taking responsibility for the three above factors, especially factors 2 & 3. Dude could get his boys focused.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #371 on: October 09, 2020, 04:06:57 PM »
As for Number 1, I think it's a big sign of maturity for a coach who can recruit to still realize they have to then turn around and develop players. Lane Kiffin and Steve Sarkisian (especially ten years ago) we're prime examples of leaning everything on their recruiting. So much of their roster never developed, position by position.
Thinking more about it, I wonder how much of #1 and #2 are almost mutually exclusive. 

I think a lot of recruiting is salesmanship, and salesmanship has a certain level of bullshit associated with it. Developing players is much more nuts & bolts teaching and doing, where bullshit doesn't fly. 

Shifting to basketball, I think of a guy like Matt Painter. Dude has a hell of an eye for talent, and is an absolute superstar at developing players and developing schemes to work around his players' skill sets. Has trouble recruiting because he's honest, forthright, and will tell you exactly what he sees [even if it's not something you want to hear]. Compare that to Juwan Howard, for example, who came into Michigan and started winning recruiting battles despite having absolutely zero college coaching experience and no head coaching experience at any level, because he can sell the NBA angle. He has proven nothing about getting his recruits to the league, because he has no track record. 

Now, that's not to say Juwan Howard isn't a great coach; the jury is still out on that. But he hasn't yet shown that he can do #2. He knows what the NBA wants, sure. Does he know how to teach his players to get there (and hopefully play good team basketball and show up in wins in the conference as well)? We don't know. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #372 on: October 09, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »
Matt Painter is like Greg Gard to me. They are like their teachers too.

Gard ID's talent really early, spends a year cultivating the relationship, and then the kids blow up and end up elsewhere. It's very frustrating. But as for development, he rocks it.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #373 on: October 09, 2020, 04:19:19 PM »
Bill Snyder?  Great coach?  Or very good coach?  Or perhaps would have been epic at a name program?

What about a coach with a "gimmick" at an FCS program that works?  

Conversely, what about a decent enough coach who lands at a top program where he can recruit lights out but never quite climbs the final mountain?

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #374 on: October 09, 2020, 05:37:55 PM »
Matt Painter is like Greg Gard to me. They are like their teachers too.

Gard ID's talent really early, spends a year cultivating the relationship, and then the kids blow up and end up elsewhere. It's very frustrating. But as for development, he rocks it.
Yep. The joke is that Izzo just sits around eating Funyuns and drinking Mountain Dew waiting to see the top-tier kids Painter wants, and then goes in at the last second and suddenly they're MSU leans. 

CatsbyAZ

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #375 on: October 09, 2020, 06:03:06 PM »
Thinking more about it, I wonder how much of #1 and #2 are almost mutually exclusive.

I think a lot of recruiting is salesmanship, and salesmanship has a certain level of bullshit associated with it. Developing players is much more nuts & bolts teaching and doing, where bullshit doesn't fly.

Shifting to basketball, I think of a guy like Matt Painter. Dude has a hell of an eye for talent, and is an absolute superstar at developing players and developing schemes to work around his players' skill sets. Has trouble recruiting because he's honest, forthright, and will tell you exactly what he sees [even if it's not something you want to hear]. Compare that to Juwan Howard, for example, who came into Michigan and started winning recruiting battles despite having absolutely zero college coaching experience and no head coaching experience at any level, because he can sell the NBA angle. He has proven nothing about getting his recruits to the league, because he has no track record.

Now, that's not to say Juwan Howard isn't a great coach; the jury is still out on that. But he hasn't yet shown that he can do #2. He knows what the NBA wants, sure. Does he know how to teach his players to get there (and hopefully play good team basketball and show up in wins in the conference as well)? We don't know.


To look at another exclusivity between #1 and #2, there's this logic that a grand developer of talent (or master schemer) that does well at a place like Texas Tech, Washington State, Kansas State, Northwestern, would explode at a place that recruits itself like Miami or USC. How many times have we heard "C'mon, he won at Washington State - imagine what he'd do with the talent Miami gets!" But in thinking about it for about 25 years of watching college football, I've come around to realizing it's not that simple.

We really underrate what it takes to socially manage some of the big personalities that Ohio State and Alabama land. It takes a rare type that can mesh big personalities into a workable system despite how that coach might want to differently scheme or differently develop talent. Conversely, Washington State or Kansas St signees go to Pullman or the Little Apple with little other options in mind, and knowing they'll need time in the weight room and under a position coach before they put a uniform on. Mike Leach going to Miami wouldn't be used to the amount of player pushback he'd get from personalities like Kellen Winslow wanting more early playing time and willingly and effectively voicing his complaint through media backchannels.

There's a lot to say about this, but how many times have we seen a program "do it right" in slowing building a winner with player development and consistent winning which parlays into better recruiting classes, only for those 4 star laden classes to fall apart two seasons in. Examples: Iowa's 2005 or 2006 signing class; Michigan State's monster 2016 signing class.

In short, the logic doesn't work that developing signing classes of three stars into a consistent top 25 program translates by the same equivalency into signing the Ohio State level of 4/5 star players and by the same coaching approach assuring a seasonal top 5 contender. Signing 4/5 stars requires a different (or added) type of coaching to keep things together.

bayareabadger

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #376 on: October 09, 2020, 11:08:56 PM »
What features make you think a coach is going to be good?

Obviously, winning is one.  I'm thinking about a coach for an FCS team, or lower ranked FBS team (Vandy) and you see something that makes you think he's likely to succeed at the next level.


This takes me back to my college days. Myself and another person were handed some mid-level roles. Everything we knew pointed to my counterpart at worst being competent and guiding the people working under us. That person arrived to start the job, suddenly had other priorities and did the bare minimum.

You just don't know how someone will fit in a job and adapt to a role until they're in it. 

I look for different positives. What can a coach do? Are they well rounded? Can they fill out the staff with others that can help? And I know no matter what I know, the outcome will look different. A MAC developer might not be a B1G developer. I think scheme travels, but it's not always enough. 

Take Paul Chryst. The man barely recruited as UW OC and sometimes has the personality of wet paper. He's now recruiting about UW's historical level. He hired one so-so DC at Pitt and then one kinda underrated one, then nailed three hires in a row. In the end, you guess at certain skills and hope some of the soft skills deliver. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Game day SOC.
« Reply #377 on: October 10, 2020, 05:33:37 AM »
Yeah, I agree that a coach that does relatively well with 2-3 star players might not excel with 4-5 star personalities.

A thing I saw Mark Richt try was to hire troubled talented players out of HS thinking he could fix them.  With few exceptions, they could not be fixed, they either left, were kicked off, were arrested and kicked off, or poisoned the locker room.  A huge chance I see with Smart is MANY fewer off season "issues".  I think he is demanding not only talent but also character (or perhaps the Athens police have gotten lax).

It used to be a routine fear in August as to which players were about to be suspended.

So, in other words, duh, this is a complex issue that even highly paid ADs don't manage all that well except hit or miss.


 

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