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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

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longhorn320

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1904 on: June 24, 2024, 11:19:05 AM »
I really thought the article I posted would get more response.  
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1905 on: June 24, 2024, 11:22:49 AM »
sorry, I'm busy listening to John Mellencamp on youtube
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1906 on: June 24, 2024, 11:23:07 AM »
I really thought the article I posted would get more response. 
I don't look at videos, to be honest.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1907 on: June 24, 2024, 11:25:53 AM »
I really thought the article I posted would get more response. 
We've discussed the Toyota battery previously, there isn't much else to be said really until it materializes and can be independently tested.  And it's of course possible is has some basic flaw.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1908 on: June 24, 2024, 11:58:27 AM »
I really thought the article I posted would get more response. 
Sorry, like Badge I rarely watch videos. I prefer to consume written content. I also saw the "clickbait" title and it was a bit of a turnoff. I usually try to stay away from anything with a clickbait title.

I just watched that video and it was a well-done explainer on solid state batteries. So thank you for posting and for following up to draw attention to it. Per your comment, in a way it is "old news" because people who follow the EV market know that solid state batteries carry enormous promise. But as the video points out, they currently don't have the technological or manufacturing capability to be a better solution than lithium ion. There are a LOT of startups and other companies, beyond Toyota, that are trying to crack that nut. If they are successful, it could make a major improvement in the BEV value proposition and thus adoption. 

That said, the fact is that Toyota is seen in public as being "behind" in BEV, opting to spend their time with hybrids. So I can look at all the attention that Toyota specifically is giving to solid state batteries in press releases and public materials two ways:

  • Trusting: Toyota is a very smart company with long-range plans. They see a BEV future but they believe that the short-term lithium ion technology is a dead end and that the future market will be dominated by solid state. So they have been biding their time supplying the market with ICEV and hybrid vehicles where there is a known, viable, and profitable, market that they excel in. All while in the background spending R&D funds on where they see the BEV market actually hitting a true transition point. I.e. they decided not to skate to where the puck is, they're skating to where it's going. 
  • Cynical: Toyota has been seen--rightly so--as behind in BEV development. Because they ARE behind, and they know it. They realize that being behind is a market risk, but by pointing to a solid state future they can both act like they're ahead on future tech, while also fomenting FUD that the current crop of lithium-ion based BEVs are "short term tech". And it's easy to do that, because all it takes is some press releases and marketing collateral, even if they end up missing the mark and solid state batteries come out 2, 5, or 10 years later than projected. It's a low-cost way to protect their reputation while steering customers to ICEV, conventional hybrid, and PHEV, which they have available to sell today. 

Personally, I've learned over the last couple of decades been deep in the world of data storage technology not to be all that trusting of press releases that don't accompany actual products. There are a lot of cool technologies that are being worked on in labs and have the potential to revolutionize data storage; but getting it out of the lab and actually scaling it is a lot harder. 

I see solid state batteries for electric vehicles in this category. The promise is there, but the products are not. When we actually see companies delivering on that promise, I'll sit up and take notice. 


FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1909 on: June 24, 2024, 12:01:23 PM »
that's why my comment of "good luck"
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

longhorn320

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1910 on: June 24, 2024, 01:08:33 PM »
Sorry, like Badge I rarely watch videos. I prefer to consume written content. I also saw the "clickbait" title and it was a bit of a turnoff. I usually try to stay away from anything with a clickbait title.

I just watched that video and it was a well-done explainer on solid state batteries. So thank you for posting and for following up to draw attention to it. Per your comment, in a way it is "old news" because people who follow the EV market know that solid state batteries carry enormous promise. But as the video points out, they currently don't have the technological or manufacturing capability to be a better solution than lithium ion. There are a LOT of startups and other companies, beyond Toyota, that are trying to crack that nut. If they are successful, it could make a major improvement in the BEV value proposition and thus adoption.

That said, the fact is that Toyota is seen in public as being "behind" in BEV, opting to spend their time with hybrids. So I can look at all the attention that Toyota specifically is giving to solid state batteries in press releases and public materials two ways:

  • Trusting: Toyota is a very smart company with long-range plans. They see a BEV future but they believe that the short-term lithium ion technology is a dead end and that the future market will be dominated by solid state. So they have been biding their time supplying the market with ICEV and hybrid vehicles where there is a known, viable, and profitable, market that they excel in. All while in the background spending R&D funds on where they see the BEV market actually hitting a true transition point. I.e. they decided not to skate to where the puck is, they're skating to where it's going.
  • Cynical: Toyota has been seen--rightly so--as behind in BEV development. Because they ARE behind, and they know it. They realize that being behind is a market risk, but by pointing to a solid state future they can both act like they're ahead on future tech, while also fomenting FUD that the current crop of lithium-ion based BEVs are "short term tech". And it's easy to do that, because all it takes is some press releases and marketing collateral, even if they end up missing the mark and solid state batteries come out 2, 5, or 10 years later than projected. It's a low-cost way to protect their reputation while steering customers to ICEV, conventional hybrid, and PHEV, which they have available to sell today.

Personally, I've learned over the last couple of decades been deep in the world of data storage technology not to be all that trusting of press releases that don't accompany actual products. There are a lot of cool technologies that are being worked on in labs and have the potential to revolutionize data storage; but getting it out of the lab and actually scaling it is a lot harder.

I see solid state batteries for electric vehicles in this category. The promise is there, but the products are not. When we actually see companies delivering on that promise, I'll sit up and take notice.


Thanks for your response

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this but this seems like a slam dunk

The company thats first to use this type of battery will be way ahead of the others.

To be able to travel 700 miles on one charge and getting a 70% recharge in 10 minutes make 

the EV market really catch fire.

They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

longhorn320

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1911 on: June 24, 2024, 01:10:36 PM »
that's why my comment of "good luck"
and you spent so much effort in your pithy reply

thanks I'll remember it always
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1912 on: June 24, 2024, 01:14:33 PM »
nearly impossible to satisfy Texans in my experience

regardless of effort level

Therefore, I don't waste much effort

I'm a slacker
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1913 on: June 24, 2024, 01:15:16 PM »
There is of course more to battery technology than range and charging times, and those other features could be worse, we don't know.

- Cost
- Longevity
- Performance in adverse weather conditions
- Safety
- Recyclability
- Use of strategic materials (?)
- Power to Weight ratio
- Compatibility with current charging network (should be OK).
- ???

But if they can pull this off, it's likely to be significant.  In the interim, I still think PHEVs will be more popular in the near term than full EVs.

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1914 on: June 24, 2024, 01:15:34 PM »
nearly impossible to satisfy Texans in my experience

regardless of effort level

Therefore, I don't waste much effort

I'm a slacker
Bulljive, you spend plenty of effort stirring the pot.

FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1915 on: June 24, 2024, 01:16:24 PM »
but, that's for my satisfaction!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1916 on: June 24, 2024, 01:37:52 PM »
Thanks for your response

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about this but this seems like a slam dunk

The company thats first to use this type of battery will be way ahead of the others.

To be able to travel 700 miles on one charge and getting a 70% recharge in 10 minutes make

the EV market really catch fire.
BTW I think "750 mile battery!" is going to prove to be more hype than reality. If you can get 70% recharge in 10 minutes, you don't need a 750 mile battery. As the video points out, that's pretty darn close to the refueling time for a gas car. Very few drivers are going to want to drive 700 mi between charges on a long trip anyway. 

What I suspect will happen if they get that level of energy storage density, is that they'll reduce the size of the battery pack to shoot for a range of 300-400 miles. High enough to avoid range anxiety but small enough to minimize the size/weight/cost of the battery pack and get vehicle prices down closer to on par with ICEV. 

Just my speculation of course. I think 750 miles of range will prove to be both unnecessary and uneconomical. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #1917 on: June 24, 2024, 01:42:56 PM »
I figure the current "usable" EV range is about between 20-80%.  So, 400 miles range is really just 240 miles usable range, which may also be OK.

And that lower range has a copious "reserve" feature.

 

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