header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread

 (Read 177300 times)

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21721
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #336 on: August 09, 2019, 11:48:04 AM »
Tons of recruits in your backyard, unlimited money, but still clearly a football school, so the pressure is never going to be like at Kentucky or Duke.  It's like the anti-UCLA.  I think Texas is arguably a top 5 basketball coaching job.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9888
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #337 on: August 09, 2019, 12:05:03 PM »

https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/1159823740814929920

1. Duke
2. Kentucky
3. Kansas
4. North Carolina
5. Arizona
6. MSU
11. OSU
14. Maryland
16. Wisconsin
18. Indiana
20. Purdue
23. Illinois
24. Michigan
42. Iowa
54. Minnesota
77. Nebraska
83. Penn State
85. Northwestern
102. Rutgers
Interesting link, thank you for sharing.  I find it interesting to compare the schools that are consistent to the more "feast or famine" schools.  

UCONN is the most obvious example of a feast-or-famine school.  In the 23 years data-period they have 4 championships, more than any other school.  Despite that, they are only ranked #19 because over the 23 years they were mostly either REALLY good or basically horrible.  

Dook is the most obvious example of consistency.  In the 23 year data-period they have been in KenPom's top-25 every single year (Kansas is the only other to achieve that) and in the top-10 20 times (more than any other school).  

My school is pretty much the model of consistency in football but in BB they have tended toward feast-or-famine.  The Buckeyes rank #11.  Their best season is a #1 which most of the schools in the top-12 have.  The Buckeyes also have 3 FF's which is more than several schools ahead of them and at least as many as every school behind tOSU except the aforementioned UCONN (5).  What holds the Buckeyes back is that their worst season (#155) is worse than any other member of the top-17 and the Buckeyes have 6/23 seasons outside of the top-50 which is worse than nine of the top-10 and only middling among the second 10 (11-20).   

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13572
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #338 on: August 09, 2019, 12:16:42 PM »
I think OSU and Wisconsin might be a little high (if you're ranking based on program prominence--but KenPom didn't, as I explain in the final paragraph).

For OSU, it's a football school. They've had some good runs in basketball, but it's unclear that they're historically that much different than a "mid-pack" team in the conference.

For basketball, I consider it to be recency bias and the Bo Ryan effect. Historically, Wisconsin basketball was a patsy in the conference. Bo Ryan was an astoundingly good coach, and his tenure was nothing short of superb, to never finish lower than 4th in conference and never miss the tournament. When you think of "Wisconsin basketball", even under Ryan, you think of white dudes with unpronounceable last names, not 5* recruits. I'm not sure anyone will be able to replicate Ryan's success, now that his recruits and his "stamp" on the program is fading to make way for Gard.

I'd also say that Indiana is a bit low (it hurts to say that)...

Of course, I typed all that before clicking the link. When looking at the link, it's based on season results since 1997. Which would explain why both Wisconsin and OSU are IMHO overrated, because for Wisconsin that was the Dick Bennett/Bo Ryan era, and for OSU that was Jim O'Brien & Matta's tenure, who both did very well. And of course Indiana has underachieved their historic place since Knight was fired, so when ranking from 1997, they look lower than they probably should be.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13572
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #339 on: August 09, 2019, 12:32:12 PM »
KenPom methodology below...

In this, everything in their rankings make a lot of sense. He gives value to the "highs", so a team like OSU or UConn that is feast-or-famine gets a bump above where you would think their consistent average is, while a team like Purdue, who has been mostly consistent (absent the very end of Keady, and a 2-year window where Painter stumbled), but just doesn't quite have the same highs. Both team's worst season is the same (155th), but OSU's best (1st) is better than Purdue's best (5th). Both have finished in the top 50 in 17 of those years, but OSU has one more top 10 and 4 more top 25 finishes than Purdue. Purdue has been to more tournaments and more Sweet 16s than OSU, but to zero Final Fours while OSU has been to 3. Thus OSU's "highs" are definitely higher than Purdue's.

And they give a recruiting boost too, so even though Indiana doesn't have the coaching to make good use of their players of late, the fact that they have the name "Indiana" on their uniform and consistently out-recruit a program like Purdue gives them a bump. Purdue edges them out in basically every category, but Indiana has one F4 back in ~2002, and better recruiting classes over the last 10 years. 



Quote
Congrats on stumbling upon my program ratings. It’s a tradition during coaching change season for fan bases and media alike (sometimes they are the same thing!) to talk about the status of their program that has a fresh coaching vacancy. The program rankings are designed to provide an objective input into this discussion.
Ranking programs is not that easy whether you are a human or a computer. For a quick and dirty calculation, one could average a team’s ratings going back some length of time. In my case I am doing this using all the data I have access to, which goes back to the 1997 season.
A straight average is fine, but when a human, especially a coach or player, is subjectively comparing two programs, they are surely allowing for recent history. In the first five years of my database, Stanford ranked 9, 9, 8, 2, and 2. Since Mike Montgomery left in 2004, The Cardinal hasn’t finished inside the top 30 and has had five seasons outside the top 100, including last season. We wish the best for Jerod Haase, but assuming the Stanford job comes open again someday, it’s unlikely to be viewed as a top 10 program.
Still, there should be some accounting for what’s possible at a program. The Mike Montgomery era might seem like a different time, unconnected to the current college basketball environment. But in a way it isn’t. When Montgomery arrived, Stanford had zero basketball tradition. They hadn’t even been to a tournament game since winning the 1942 national title. And Stanford went 7-23 in Montgomery’s seventh season1. It was an incredible reclamation project, but maybe the potential was always there, too.
So there’s more weight given to a team’s best seasons since 1997. Thus, those early Stanford seasons are not forgotten and the Cardinal is viewed as above average Pac-12 program despite the recent lack of success. Now take that weighted average and throw in some juice for conference affiliation: It’s 85% team, 15% conference in the current iteration. The rationale here is if the Pac-12 suddenly handed out a membership Cal State Fullerton, you better believe the Titans’ would be a much more desirable location for coaches and players.
There is one more ingredient and that involves people. If the best basketball players are consistently choosing certain programs that says something about the stature of the program. So I add an adjustment using a recruiting rating based on the final RSCI rankings for each of the past ten seasons, giving more weight to recent seasons.
Theoretically, the rating should be an indicator of the success we should expect each program to have over some sort of extended period in the future (like many years). But it may be more useful as trying to capture the perception of a program. Consider it a guide to how coaches and players might consider the currently hierarchy of college basketball when entertaining job or scholarship offers.
This will be updated on an annual basis and should be considered a work in progress. I will make note of any methodology updates as they happen.


utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20059
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #340 on: August 09, 2019, 12:38:23 PM »
Tons of recruits in your backyard, unlimited money, but still clearly a football school, so the pressure is never going to be like at Kentucky or Duke.  It's like the anti-UCLA.  I think Texas is arguably a top 5 basketball coaching job.
As a head coaching gig, I agree it's pretty good.  But this list was also for recruits handling multiple scholarship offers, too.  I'm not sure I'd put Texas in the top 30 for that. 

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13572
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #341 on: August 09, 2019, 12:47:37 PM »
As a head coaching gig, I agree it's pretty good.  But this list was also for recruits handling multiple scholarship offers, too.  I'm not sure I'd put Texas in the top 30 for that.
Yet Texas has pulled in top-ten recruiting classes in a majority of the last ten years. 

If I look at KenPom's methodology and his ratings, there's no way that Texas should be 10th overall based on program results. I'd put them maybe mid-teens when you look at their on-court success. 

But, if KenPom is weighting recruiting a little strong (which doesn't show up as a score on his ratings page), it could explain their bump. 

The same is true of Oregon, which IMHO shouldn't be anywhere near 20th based on their results. But Oregon keeps getting top-tier recruits, far above and beyond what they've actually proved on the court. 

mcwterps1

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 3152
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #342 on: August 09, 2019, 02:47:20 PM »
Duck Fuke

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 29069
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #343 on: August 17, 2019, 02:57:29 PM »







So, which kid at Michigan?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13572
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #344 on: August 17, 2019, 03:23:07 PM »
The kid *in* Michigan, not the kid *at* Michigan.

That could easily be a recruit in Michigan that didn't even end up in-state. And could be 2018 or 2019, IMHO. Although I'd lean towards 2018, because Romeo/Zion were both 2018.

You can tell based on the size of the redact that it was probably a 5-letter name. Who would it have been?

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13572
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #345 on: August 17, 2019, 03:24:26 PM »
Got a link for that transcription?

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21721
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #346 on: August 17, 2019, 09:08:07 PM »
The kid *in* Michigan, not the kid *at* Michigan.

That could easily be a recruit in Michigan that didn't even end up in-state. And could be 2018 or 2019, IMHO. Although I'd lean towards 2018, because Romeo/Zion were both 2018.

You can tell based on the size of the redact that it was probably a 5-letter name. Who would it have been?

It was redacted because he is a minor, so that suggests 2019.

My guess is Romeo Weems, who was the #1 recruit in the state, curiously wound up at DePaul, who just got slapped by the NCAA a few weeks ago.  Matches the 5 letter name too.

MichiFan87

  • Player
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 796
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #347 on: August 23, 2019, 01:14:31 PM »
BigTen schedule is finally out.

Obviously there are still a lot of unknowns for Michigan, but based on what I know I'm projecting 21-10 and 12-8 with the most likely losses being in North Carolina or Gonzaga in the Bahamas, at Louisville, both Michigan State games and other away games except Rutgers and Northwestern.
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
― Bo Schembechler

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21721
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #348 on: August 23, 2019, 02:09:14 PM »
Nice of the Big Ten to have our home game against Michigan with no students

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9888
  • Liked:
Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #349 on: August 23, 2019, 03:52:31 PM »
I found a BTN link for the schedule but does anyone know where I can find a chart with which teams each team:

  • plays twice
  • hosts only
  • visits only

For Ohio State it is:
  • MN, IU, M, PSU, UMD, UW, and UNL twice each
  • IL, PU, and RU in Columbus only
  • IA, MSU, NU away only


 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.